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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Jan 10, 2014 - 11:56am PT
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Still waiting for my transfer flight.
What up Rick!
"bolts murdered the impossible" or people just became scared.
I get scared...
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Jan 10, 2014 - 12:44pm PT
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I gotta go they're boarding zones 2 and three. Heehehehe
Thanks Rick.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Jan 10, 2014 - 01:59pm PT
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Personally, I'll stay on Klaus's side of the line.
Sorry, I don't usually form opinions so fast. Especially because I was not on the Growing Up ascent, I did not walk a mile in their shoes, and you did not neither. I am sure there were reasons to do what they did. Not everyone has to live by same rules as Klaus lives, or have the same values as coz, you, or me. Climbing is a very personal activities and people have reasons. Personally, I have A LOT of respect four Doug Robinson and know Sean Jones put up a lot of good routes out there. If those two think it is justified to put up the route in the style that they did, I do not see why there would be such a big stink. Anyway, hope everyone does something really fun this weekend...if I personally had the skills to repeat this route I would in a heartbeat.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Jan 10, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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Sounds like there's some fancy footwork to be had in an amazing place up there.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jan 10, 2014 - 10:45pm PT
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Before I first tried climbing Growing Up, I thought the top down thing was kind of a lame copout. While I was on the route I quickly ceased to give a sh#t.
And for the life of me, I still can't bring myself to actually give a rats ass.
Thing is, its a great route and no one was ever going to put it in ground up. It doesn't go ground up, it's too blank. That's not to say it could never be freed. Who knows, some people are bad ass, but it's not going to go in some monumental ground up effort. It's not Sothern Belle. Same game, but not the same field, na' mean? The ground up game looses it's appeal when you run into a long section of AO. Who was really going to go up there, find that, and still press on risking their ass for a route that doesn't go? No one, that's who. So who honestly could find the energy in themselves to actually care how someone put a route up on a piece of stone that was destined to remain blank for all eternity?
Whatever, the climbing bad ass. But it's not a route for mortals. You'd need to be far above par to fire that thing off in a day. We made it to pitch 13, and that took us two days. I know of a very capable team that went up on it about a month ago. They made it to pitch 6. The bottom half is a worthy goal in of it's self.
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Einstein
climber
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Jan 10, 2014 - 10:50pm PT
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So six years now and the thing still hasn't had a real ascent?
I thought the justification for the rap bolting was to have a route that people would do, as opposed to S Belle?
What a fecking idiot! You think you are somehow a big man for dredging this thread up? Doug Robinson and Sean Jones are better human beings than your sorry ass will ever be.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 10, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
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The South face of Half Dome is one of the most beautiful rock faces on the planet.
It deserves the best .....
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 12:26am PT
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Thanks tons on that Salamanizer! Very important hearing your impressions, experiences and opinions on this. I really agree with you too. For others, Pitch #13 is at the end of the arch and the end of the trad section of climbing. Above is the massive section of top-down bolted free-climbing.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jan 11, 2014 - 12:31am PT
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Not everyone has to live by same rules as Klaus lives, or have the same values as coz, you, or me. Climbing is a very personal activities and people have reasons.
Quite right that there is no enforcement that prevents particular climbing choices of behavior. As food for thought, however, is it workable to universalize the notion that all of climbing's impactful activities (f*#king up the rock in whatever way we select) can be merely personal activities with personal reasons? IMHO, the answer is no. Would I retrobolt the BY? Would I replace all copperheads with bolts? Why not, if we have already damaged the rock, do it up fully, right? There are self regulating ideas, but there is no bible to hand them down from gen to gen. It's not absolute. It's just a handful of goofballs, curmudgeons and back water doofusas saying "Hey, maybe out of all the top down routes across the entire U.S. we don't top down this one iconic symbol of rock climbing.
The Chief is probably right, the line may not exist in any tangible sense anymore. Unfortunate in many cases. But great fun in other areas. The point in raising it in forums and threads like this is only to say 'there is another way' and serious thought should be put into places like Yosemite and Pinnacles.
Salamanizer is right too. When climbing it, and maxing out on the difficulty, who cares about how it went it. That's our own personal style in the moment. Just send!
The call out for me, regardless of the difficulty of any route, is setting out some rules for ourselves that dictate 'how' we will have an impact. In hard, aid maybe it's total hole counts, or total head placements, no ehooks, etc. In free climbing it's not resorting to aid. In bolting, maybe it's preserving adventure and going ground up. Or maybe at loose rock areas, it's about cleaning the loose up as best you can, and making sure each clip is perfect. And yes, forests get trashed out, and ATVs may wreck the desert, etc. But within the game of climbing "how" things get down matters because it does have an impact.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 01:59am PT
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Jim, the topo shows 15 points of A0 (bolts all). This is not a new piece of info at all, though.
Yeah it is ironic for sure and part of the whole foggy situation.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jan 11, 2014 - 02:36am PT
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There's a 60 foot rap bolted aid ladder in the middle of it and no one here sees the irony
I get what you're saying, but I find it hard to agree with all of it. Every route is different and acceptable ethics can change dramatically in just a matter of feet in some areas. Nobody can sensibly argue that top down isn't somewhat acceptable in certain situations and places.
Yes, the South Face is sacred ground, but it's mostly impenetrable. Anyone who's ever touched it quickly realizes that. There's miles of blank ground that will never see chalk marks even by the most burly of monkeys. Not because they couldn't cheat their way to it, just because they couldn't make a move even if they did.
What Growing Up is, is a good effort that abruptly ended at an impossible impasse. What should they have done? Stopped there and left the upper half to fester in the minds of those who dream it might be possible, only to have someone finally drill a bolt ladder to nowhere in a noble effort? Or perhaps drill the same bolt ladder to finally free the upper section in a balls out mirror image of Southern Belle resulting in a route that sees few to no accents and goes at exactly the same grade it does now?
Where I differ in opinion is this route would never go ground up. And in my mind that justifies exploration. Just as a chossy face is going to attract few ground up bids from those who are capable of climbing it. Look at Owens. Imagine if only ground up were acceptable there. What a shitty little locals only, lonely sh#t pile that place would be today. Top down made it into a destination. But only because ground up was impossible on most of it's routes.
The South Face of Half Dome is like this. I agree, it should be held to the highest standard, as most areas should be as well. However, this route was never going to go ground up... Never! So what harm is there in exploring top down on something that would otherwise never be? Nothing else will ever pass by within eyeshot of those bolts. It took nothing from anyone. No ones experience will be diminished or taken away by the line of bolts up there. It's not as if someone, somehow someday would have a chance in hell of climbing that upper section ground up. Not unless they were willing to commit to leaving behind the same AO bolt ladder the top down crew left.
And all this coming from one of the biggest ethics Nazis around... Who'd of thunk it?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 11, 2014 - 04:18am PT
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Hey Einstooge, I never said they weren't good men. You think I'm the only one who has questioned the style here?
Much better men than you have questioned this route in one way or another.
So eat a bag of dicks.
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clinker
Trad climber
California
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Jan 11, 2014 - 08:37am PT
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Get Kennedy to chop all routes that weren't put up onsight-freesolo. That is the true pure standard.
Oh I forgot the coveted first butt naked winter ascent.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2014 - 10:57am PT
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Salamanizer -- "Where I differ in opinion is this route would never go ground up."
They said that about "Bachar Yerian" originally before anyone ever tried it.
A few were eyeballing it besides John.
They were ready to rap bolt it.
lol
And then history came.
Just like on the second ascent of "Crimson Cringe".
Jardine said you'll never be able to do it without "friends".
So Ray offered his only rack of friends in existence.
Kauk said no way Jose and we'll prove you wrong ......
Never say never.
Just do what you have to ......
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jan 11, 2014 - 11:41am PT
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I wanna be able to shoot bolts in from my motel rooms private veranda!
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 11, 2014 - 11:47am PT
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Clever and hilarious!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 11, 2014 - 11:50am PT
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Has anyone actually gone up and repeated this thing? Wonder what the verdict is per those having the actual experience of being up there and sending as opposed to the rest of us down here milling around the base.
JL
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 11, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
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Largo, you are not reading the thread. Check out Salamanizer's posts just above. He has been to the top of Pitch #13, the end of the arch and the trad climbing, where the top-down bolting begins and the tiny bit of A0 is located.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jan 11, 2014 - 01:39pm PT
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They said that about "Bachar Yerian" originally before anyone ever tried it.
I know Werner, and I'm on board with that perspective. The difference is, that's the Bachar Yerian and this routes section in question is an overhanging, impenetrable swath of smooth glacial polish, which was tried. It's the end of the road up there, no "maybe" about it. I mean, they rap bolted it. If there was a way, they'd have found it. I think what they were trying to do was avoid the bolt ladder at all costs. It didn't pan out, so they finished the rest of the route in a more convenient style since they were already down there.
Copout, yes! Modern atrocity, no! Likely style to be repeated on the South Face, I doubt it.
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katiebird
climber
yosemite
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Jan 11, 2014 - 01:54pm PT
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Being curious about this route myself, Ben Ditto and I climbed our way up to the 15th pitch in a day. We freed all of the dihedral, which is some of the best climbing in the Valley, managed to just about free the 14th pitch and were faced with a very blank 15th pitch. Both pitches are for sure freeable but will go most likely at hard 5.13 possibly even 5.14. A lot of time and an open mind are required to do so however.
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