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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 30, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
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Have to go with you and Coz on this one. The next generation never ceases to surprise, let's leave them a clean canvas for their art.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 30, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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It's not so simple as saying no climb should ever be rap bolted.
Coz did not say that no route should ever be rap bolted. He has unrepeated (not for lack of people trying) routes in Josh with bolts placed on rappel.
What he is saying is that this magnificent and iconic face, one of the world's great opportunities for standard setting adventure climbs, should not have been brought down like this.
Earlier DR used the word situational. In reference to many aspects of climbing this can be a very useful word. My objection to this route is situational also. Location. History. Future adventures.
Jim, unfortunately I don't think that even if chopped a route can ever be considered a clean canvass.
Sad but true. And a good reason to look at this and say it should not have been done.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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I'm not comparing anybody to Ken. And, if I remember, Nichols got in trouble with the law for assault, not for chopping bolts.
I'm just wondering if anything positive has ever resulted from somebody chopping somebody else's route.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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Right you are Pate, but if the Compressor Route had never been done the most beautiful mountain in the world would also be one of the best tics in the world.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
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I'm just wondering if anything positive has ever resulted from somebody chopping somebody else's route.
I can come up with some examples, but not on the scale of SFHD.
A few years ago a well known accomplished local put some bolted routes on a rock in a parking area at Josh. One day I was hanging in this lot and watched as some tourists inspected the bolts from the ground and expressed amazement that climbers were allowed to do this. I removed the bolts and gave them back to their owner who agreed that it was better they were not there.
I removed the bolts from a route in the Southern Sierra which featured manufactured holds in an area where this doen't fly. I'm still on friendly terms with the climber who did that too.
edit: Another one:
There is a great hard route on Future Games Rock called Games Without Frontiers, 5.13a/b. Years before this route was established (ground up) by Paul Borne I was out there and saw some Euros rap bolting that line. They were putting in a lot of bolts. I went back to HVCC and informed one of the leading climbers in the area about this. The bolts were quickly chopped and that section of the face sat blank until Paul came along and protected perfectly on lead with three bolts. It's a great climb now.
There is a crack climb at Courtright called Cradle Will Rock which was climbed by many over the years before it sprouted bolts. They will be going away when I am up there with the right technology for removing Petzl bolts without making a mess. The world will be a better place for it too...
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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Maybe this one is worth it and maybe not. As others have mentioned, Robbins thought WEML was a travesty and should be removed until he got on it.
I'd argue that there is little evidence this one climb has changed general ethics on the SFHD or in Yos in general. I haven't heard of any big increase in rap-bolting.
As for the SFHD, while I admire the routes there, I'm not sure that I agree that an entire giant wall should be only the province of those who can climb runout 5.11-12. There's options for early repeats on a couple of those, and it sounds like room for more of those. I'm not sure that haven't one different type of route diminishes that experience.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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Coz said
" I do rap bolt but not on big walls and only a few times in JT, on climbs with extremely fragile holds.
I did climb The Rastafarian in JT ground up, itīs been repeated and is now rated 14b. So, I can and do both.
So, my point is, that a big wall like the SFHD should in my way of thinking, be preserved. Itīs a gaint wall not a little sport cliff, why rap bolt it? "
Who's to say Rastafarian shouldn't have remained a top rope?
And does size really matter? Lil kwiffs desove wespekt too.
"Now the die has shaken,
now the die must fall.
There ain't no winner in the game,
we don't go home with all,
not with all."
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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Kris wrote: There is a crack climb at Courtright called Cradle Will Rock which was climbed by many over the years before it sprouted bolts. They will be going away when I am up there with the right technology for removing Petzl bolts without making a mess. The world will be a better place for it too...
You are talking apples and oranges. The routes already were established and bolts were added later.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
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Bob, only in that last case. The others were new bolted routes, the first case was a bad choice of location, being in your face about it on a rock which is a bit of a landmark. The second was manufactured so the issue was one of "ethics."
edit: Actually the Games Without Fronteirs case is the most relevant if you read what I said.
Cheers,
K
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
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coz wrote, The problem with this forum is so few people have climbed on the SFHD, or really care about ethics.
right on the first one, wrong on the second. i agree that the route GU should never have been done. i also agree that rapp bolting should be situational and not on hte great cliffs of the world...
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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Kris...maybe I don't understand what you are getting at???
If you want the bolts removed then you do it. :-)
The really weird part is that after two full years no one has climbed, rapped or hiked up to the wall to check the climb out. Not one pitch has been repeated even the upper ones that access from Cables. This talk is just fodder for the internet.
Coz or anyone else could have gone up and climbed the route and assess the situation first hand and reported on the bolting and climbing.
Looks like the nay sayers really just don't give a f*#k. :-)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 30, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
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Bob I said upthread that I don't think it is my place to recommend chopping, or to chop that route. I don't have those kind of footprints in The Valley, it would be a rediculous act.
I do know Coz, and I understand how and why he feels as he does. And as one who grew up on DR's writings I have said here that I am confused and dissapointed by his choices. That's all.
My talk about chopping was a direct answer to a direct question which I quoted. Nothing more.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 30, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
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Kris...I understand...but if really meant that much you think someone...anyone would have made the effort to at least check it out.
I also "grew up" reading Doug's writing...that was the 1970's and things change, and thankfully so.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 30, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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Bobby D, I've got to disagree- makes no difference how good the climb is. Rap bolting, acceptable as it may be in the sport climbing arena, has no place either in the mountains or the iconic big walls of the world- especially where many climbs have been done without resorting to rap bolting.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 30, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
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WEML was established ground up, and is likely to be considered an inapposite example, as phrased. The chopping effort, though ultimately a reflection of understanding and a meeting of the minds, also reflects the position and precedent that excessive bolting in principle, which is often in the form of top down efforts (not in WEML case), is not acceptable even in the climbing community itself, much less to land managers.
The bare principle that there can be such a thing as too much bolting is a truism. We should guard against that. For example, no bolting next to protectable cracks by way of example.
If I were to speculate/paraphrase what Cos is saying; is that this method of approach sets a new precedent in a direction that every single one of us should think about before we set drill to stone.
IMO, we do these things not because they are easy, but precisely because they are hard and unknowns.
"climbing should be like shitting an anvil" -DMT
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chez
Social climber
chicago ill
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Apr 30, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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I'm with coz on this one. Being a climbing photographer not so back in the day, i can see that the lure of the "mag" played a huge part in the decision of finishing this route.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 30, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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Jim wrote: Bobby D, I've got to disagree- makes no difference how good the climb is. Rap bolting, acceptable as it may be in the sport climbing arena, has no place either in the mountains or the iconic big walls of the world- especially where many climbs have been done without resorting to rap bolting.
Jim..rap bolting started before "sport climbing" as did chipping, aiding off hooks, pre-placing protection and other so called sins.
Coz and others just don't like the way the climb was done. I can respect that...I don't have to agree.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 30, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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What about a variant to what was done? That is, once the climbers "dead-ended", what if they had then inspected possible lines en rappel, perhaps even trying the moves to ensure everything linked up? Then led the selected line, placing anchors as they went? It would certainly have been pre-inspected, and much of the uncertainty of route-finding would be gone, but it would otherwise be closer to the on-sight ideal, without the possibility of leaving dead-end lines all over.
Although leaving something for a better climber has always been my philosophy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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Since this ugly chop talk is going around, I'd like to suggest it would be pretty light to chop the route without climbing it.
Coz wrote
There is a place in hell for guys like Karl, he never really says how he feels he just plays both sides.
yeah, personally I'm straight. Romantically, it's all women for me. Does that mean we can get rid of the gay people? People used to get lynched for what's perfectly acceptable these days, like marrying a different race.
live and let live. I think that folks like Robbins in his time would have found some of Coz's tactics on crags or even El Cap deplorable. Times change.
Fine to register your offense at Sean's ethics. The older generation always does. Time decides
PEace
karl
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Apr 30, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
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The really weird part is that after two full years no one has climbed, rapped or hiked up to the wall to check the climb out. Not one pitch has been repeated even the upper ones that access from Cables. This talk is just fodder for the internet.
Bob, that's not accurate. Salamanizer did the bottom pitches, all the way to the AO I think. He said it was good, but ran out of time and guns.
He sounded honest about it.
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