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Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 29, 2008 - 10:04pm PT
Personally, I don't see the value in restricting routes on Half Dome to strictly ones with dangerous runouts. Should every harder route be equipped to only get an ascent every 5-8 years? It just ain't possible to make certain routes ground up with any kinda safety (or even without safety)

Ya got your Southern Belle, yur Autobahn, and this route. Something for every taste.

and it's not like you see the bolts on one from the lack of bolts on the other.

It's ironic that there's a morality police that's ready to condemn one act of climbing when other morality police have themselves condemned the first morality cop's ascents in the past to boot.

Whatever your form of climbing, aid (most destructive and free standards increase all the time) power drilling, hang-dogging, siege climbing, rap bolting, even using chalk, topos or cams. They've all been dissed in the past. It could be argued that any use of a hammer for anything is beating the rock into submission.

For every cry that climbing is getting dumbed down, there is a bold ascent and a standard exceeded. Doesn't mean everybody has to do it that way.

Peace

Karl
Hankster

Trad climber
Eldorado Springs, CO
Mar 29, 2008 - 10:32pm PT
It might be nice to climb that rock without the whole broken ankles thing, hard to say not knowin'. I still think that hike is gonna keep most of the riff raff away. But what do I know, I'm a Texan living in Boulder.

Caylor
Ihateplastic

Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
Mar 29, 2008 - 10:35pm PT
"Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase."
-MLK

A abhor political commentary on this forum, but Karl, I gotta ask, would you condone a rap-established route next to the Nose (for example) that was glued plastic from toe to summit? A "climber" in the future might argue this was the best way to do a FA free-solo route on the Captain. As you said, "Something for every taste."
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 29, 2008 - 10:43pm PT
Would that be The Hole unNatural Art of Protection?

Har har.

Got to see some of the pic's of that route. Whew. Looks pretty neat. Then we shared some beta on rap bolted routes.

Cheers, Doug!

-Brian in SLC
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Mar 29, 2008 - 10:48pm PT
As with WOS, criticism of the route would have value if it came from someone who's done it, IMO.

Lots of routes have been rap bolted in Yosemite. Seeing Half Dome as an exception to that style of first ascent seems unjustified. I know the other routes on the South Face were done ground up, but when steepness eliminates the ability of a leader to stance drill, aid must be used. Sure, using a hook to drill is scarier, OK, ballsier, but on a route of that size, you're talking scores of hook placed bolts. And very likely a route that gets stopped by a blank section. In which case all those holes are destined to be unused.

Considering the nature of that wall, continuously freeclimbable face routes are going to be difficult, if not impossible to see from the ground. That factor, and the scale of the route, make a preinspection justified in my opinion, especially after ground up attempts that fail after a good effort. Few of us have the time to make numerous false starts on a route of that scale. Once a preinspection is done, the adventure factor of a ground up ascent is lost, and if aid is used to place bolts, hooks or rap - it don't mean much to me.

At that point there is a lot to be said for a well crafted route that finds a well camouflaged, barely climbable, and beautiful line, enabling future climbers to appreciate it forever. That's what I suspect this route offers.


Climbers pushing the standards and exploring new ground often have used controversial methods. The finished product will be judged in time by climbers who have the ability and the open mind to do the route.


Of course, a successful ground up effort would be better style and more impressive - but time and successive ascents will yield the only qualified criticism of the route, and the climbers who did it first - as I see it.

KW







survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Mar 29, 2008 - 10:52pm PT
5.13 slab???? I don't really like the idea of rap bolting anything, but I just don't have the danglers for 5.13 slab or much of any other kind of 5.13, so...I guess it only bothers me in a dislocated kind of way. But then, the whole WOS thing didn't really bug me that much either. It's all just blowin' til somebody goes up there, does it, and then says it sucks. Probably wouldn't change much anyway...
Climb on brothers, climb on.
B
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Mar 29, 2008 - 10:55pm PT
Does the NPS have regs against hand bolting on rap?

Nah, but they might be bummed if you used a power drill, on El Cap, for instance.

Where's Dingus?

Ha ha.

-Brian in SLC
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Mar 29, 2008 - 10:57pm PT
"A abhor political commentary on this forum, but Karl, I gotta ask, would you condone a rap-established route next to the Nose (for example) that was glued plastic from toe to summit? "

There's obviously a limit to everything and extreme examples merely make obvious what is a judgement call...Where is the line?

I'll tell you this much: The retro bolts that all those who freeclimbed the Nose have clipped, I doubt very much that they were placed from stances or even hooks.

Peace

Karl
Ihateplastic

Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
Mar 29, 2008 - 11:26pm PT
A dozen postcards says this thread will quickly pass 100 posts.

I have always (just ask my kids) said I don't care what someone believes in or practices (bestiality, bathhouse glory holes, veganism, smoking a pipe, Jehovah's Witness, chewing tobacco, Branch Davidian, Republican, etc.) just as long as they don't push it in my face and tell me I am wrong for not being a believer. Do whatever you want, whenever you want, but please remember that there are others who do not go with your flow.

Devil's advocate for a moment...

1. New bolts are placed on old aid routes to make them safer and doable. This seems an accepted practice. So would it be wrong to place bolts on an established free route so it can be done as a practice aid route? The bolts would not change the holds of the free route. Free climbers do not need to clip them.

2. Has anyone ever led Nabisco on aid? Would we allow them to do that or laugh them out of the Park?

3. If bolts are placed on an old aid route to make it a free route would it be wrong to chop the new bolts to return the route to its original state?

4. Is FREE higher on the climbing structure than AID? Yes, I think most would say so. But are free climbers allowed more freedoms than aid climbers? When will we close the Salathe to people who cannot do it all free?

5. Very few people "enjoy" a long runout. But what is an acceptable runout? If the runout was 35 feet on the FA and the second ascent determines the route would see more ascents if it had five foot runouts would they be wrong to add the bolts on rap? Sport climbers have shown us that bolts placed at one-meter intervals are acceptable since they produce hard routes that advance technique. Those short runouts seem to help the popularity of the routes.

Again, everyone is free to do what they feel is in their own best interest. Who am I to say, "she's right. You're wrong. That route stays as is. That one needs to be chopped." The community (climbing, religious, political, sexual, etc.) will establish and modify the acceptable guidelines as times change. Hopefully in climbing, the end result will be routes many people can enjoy in a safe way without death leads and without hand-holding arrows painted on the rock showing the direction to the next clip for many eons to come.


Russ Walling

Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
Mar 30, 2008 - 12:22am PT
How many Pin_Bolts™™™ were used???
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
Mar 30, 2008 - 12:43am PT
This thread has asked the wrong question.


What is a sufficient level of adventure to justify any climbing action?

If we could answer that, then we could determine much.



but to say there is no adventure in those routes is probably mistaken, but also to not try more adventure (as a principle) is mistaken. The real story is somewhere in between, and we sure don't have it here.




ok, i'm outta this one. done posted too much in WOS anyways.

cheers, all, see you at the crags.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 30, 2008 - 12:43am PT
Now this is what us outsiders sign up for - new lines, big names, old controversies rekindled, and sparks flying. And yes, where is Mimi, et al. with their enduring outrage? How many micro-flakes were sacrificed? Or, is this the case that finally proves once and for all that WOS was really about the climbers and not the climb?

And who knows, maybe it really was a desert up there on those slabs, where quality routes can only be found through a process of diligent 'rap discovery' - a term we clearly need to add to the climbing lexicon given the dawn of what promises to be a new era of hidden Valley gems.
WBraun

climber
Mar 30, 2008 - 01:06am PT
".... the end result will be routes many people can enjoy in a safe....."

Not all routes are meant to be safe or enjoyed by many people.

They are are "there" whether one enjoys or not, if it's safe or not.

Routes have soul ......

You can cover that soul, with ignorance, passion, and goodness.

And, .... you can come face to face with that soul when you transcend those 3 modes and come to pure goodness.

The best and most beautiful pearls lie in the deepest ocean.

Half way ground up, and the second half top down, how ironic on one of the most beautiful faces in America.

It faces east were the suns first rays illuminate to reveal the truths ......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 30, 2008 - 01:26am PT
"Half way ground up, and the second half top down, how ironic..."

Are you implying the route was ground down to achieve success?
KP Ariza

climber
SCC
Mar 30, 2008 - 01:48am PT
If I remember correctly, The R&I article states that the upper headwall was mostly 11+ climbing. These guys were obviously capable of climbing well past that level, especially after pre inspection. Once the continuous line was discovered, might it not have been worth at least an attempt to do it on the lead? You can always ad bolts to your route after the fact, in order to make it safe for the "masses" if that's what you'd like. They did a kick ass job on the lower part of the route, so whats wrong with a 6 or 7 pitch classic that you have to rap from?



marky

climber
Mar 30, 2008 - 03:46am PT
"I'm a Texan living in Boulder"

this HAS to be the name of some route somewhere
Captain...or Skully

Social climber
Idaho
Mar 30, 2008 - 08:02am PT
Please give to the grid bolting association.
Riotch

Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
Mar 30, 2008 - 10:27am PT
This is a good discussion. I would much rather see climbers arguing among themselves than have some government agency telling us what is an acceptable method of first ascent.

I will say, as a first ascentionist, that I have personally botched some of the routes I've established on lead. The end result, in some cases, would have been better if I had rap bolted.

The route in question is unique, and it does set a bit of a precedent in Yosemite, which despite a few rap bolted lines, remains a ground up area (IMHO).

So, keep hashing it out, it is worth careful consideration.

What will the future of climbing in Yosemite be. And, who will make the rules, climbers or the government???
rincon

Trad climber
SoCal
Mar 30, 2008 - 11:04am PT
I wonder if others have scoped that route but decided to pass or hold off on it until they could do it in good style?

Largo

Sport climber
Venice, Ca
Mar 30, 2008 - 11:37am PT
Most of this boils down to what people consider to be an adavance or improvement in climbing standards and practices. That, in turn, is informed by your particular values. If adventure, risk and all that other stuff are th key aspects in your experience, you'll look to go bolder than those who came before. If security and knowing outcomes beforehand is important to you, tradition becoms meaningless and you do whatever is necessary. I don't think either camp is a fixed thing and I've climbed routes by both means.

One of the things I most regret is not jumping onto the South Face of the Dome back when I was climbing all the time. We planed for it once and intended on putting a team together of Suicide dime masters but for whatever reason we never did . . .

JL
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