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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
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Karl asks "I'm surprised, looking at the topo that nobody's complaining about the apparantly bolted wide physical 12a crack on pitch 7."
I was getting there, but I can only do so much.
Bruce
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
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Karl, Your “help” didn’t help me.
>There's a difference between those statements and "people who have sex outside marriage are sinners and will burn in hell" and "People who marry 11 year olds are pedophiles and should be shot first and questioned later"
Maybe I’m a little slow here, but what is that “difference” you allude to? The only clear difference that comes from your post is that one act is currently legal and the other act is currently illegal and therefore “should get due process of law”.
PS Ground up into the eerie with bow and arrow . . . nice. Maybe limiting myself to just a crag hammer would be even better.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 30, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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Funny the comment about being married and having children changing ones perspective. I started climbing before being married, don't know if that matters, have three children, and am really enjoying getting them into climbing.
This thread has for me more entrenched that ideal that ground up is where it's at, and what it's about. I have rap bolted routes in the past.
To me the process and the adventure is important. To an extent ou could say it's like a product, let's say a guitar. One can get a guitar put together on an assebly line, or one that is built by hand, with blood sweat and tears. To me the blood sweat and tears put life, character, a uniqueness into the end product.
Rap bolting is like the factory assembly line. No blood sweat and fear on the part of the bolter. Ok, hand drilling adds the sweat for sure, but it is a totally different experience than on lead, groaning on a stance, or freaking that your hooks will fail and you'll take the whipper.
Climbing is about overcoming your fears, not removing all trace of them. Well, at least that's what climbing means to me.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 03:55pm PT
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> I'm surprised, looking at the topo that nobody's complaining about the apparantly bolted wide physical 12a crack on pitch 7. '
> How wide is that thing? I thought it was only Harding and Bridwell that bolted cracks in Yosemite. Just bringing it up since it was bound to be discussed.
Steppin' Out (5.10d ow near Reed's) has 2 protection bolts.
JayBro's "JCA's Wide World of Sports" route on Balch Camp Flake has pro bolts.
http://www.widefetish.com/features/jays_wws/jays_wws.html
There's also Perry's Lieback on the Grand Wall at Squamish - bolted lieback/undercling. Could be protected with several huge cams, but it's many pitches up and few people want to carry those up there....
Of course, there are also many ows without bolts, including hard ones like those on Excalibur. So it's one of those judgement calls, up to the people doing the FA. (For the Excalibur ows, it was an FFA, so adding bolts was probably not an acceptable option).
As usual, people could probably bring big cams and ignore the bolts on any of these climbs.
[Edit: my assumption in the above was that the "wide" was an ow or something similar. But I was wrong. In Sean's post below, he explains that p7 is a 10" wide, sloping lieback. So I have added this text to the topo to make this clear.]
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:08pm PT
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Slipknot wrote
"Maybe I’m a little slow here, but what is that “difference” you allude to"
I'm not up to explaining it. Supertopo addiction is killing me!
If you reread my post and still don't get it, we can agree to disagree
Which is of course, another alternative to absolutist thinking
Peace
Karl
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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aka punt
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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"The other essential idea of Buddhism (more accurately called a science of mind than a religion) is that we can change our world by changing how we choose to look at the world. 'There is nothing either good or bad," as Hamlet said, "but thinking makes it so.'"
From an article on the Dali Lama
I don't know, I just thought it relevant.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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SlipKnot, if you see that marrying an 11-year old is only wrong because it's illegal, then of course you will not understand what Karl is saying.
BTW Karl, I've really enjoyed many of your posts in this thread. Very thoughtful.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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My concern, based solely on KB's recent posts is that HE sees marrying an 11-year old is only wrong because it's illegal. I doubt, however, that such is his view, which begins to expose contradtion in his statments.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
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KB wrote: If you want to marry an 11 year old, I think society needs to say 'No, that's a collective moral issue because the life of one too young to consent is involved."
SlipKnot, I think you're reading with blinders on.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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I guess that's mutual. If KB wants to engage with my last question, fine. If he wants to ignore potential problems that might be probed and continue on in his effort to push this thread to 3000, that's fine too.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 05:05pm PT
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Dood, I don't want to get in the middle of you and Karl. But, is this your question: "I like to hunt bald eagles by helicopter in Alaska. What do you think of that?"
For one, I don't see any connection with this to the SFoHD.
Second, can you really hunt Bald Eagles by helicopter?
Last, I think Karl did address your question, try rereading his posts (without the blinders).
Cheers...
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 30, 2008 - 05:16pm PT
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It is illegal to use helicopters to transport hunters in Alaska. It is illegal to hunt from a vehicle in motion, except for some limited preditor control programs. It is illegal to kill bald eagles anywhere in the US, it's even illegal to have a feather from a bald eagle, unless you are a native american with special paperwork for ceremonial purposes.
It is the attempt of a dumbazz trying to be a smartazz to suggest hunting bald eagles in Alaska from a helicopter while discussing the issue of placing fixed protection via rappel in a National Park, especially the park that is the premier and historic focus of rock climbing in the US.
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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Apr 30, 2008 - 05:29pm PT
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Looks like Matt lost his 2000th seat and jstan wins the shirt. Somehow I'm just thinking he ain't gonna wear it. He should offer it to Matt for a valiant yet somewhat lame effort :-)
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 06:31pm PT
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That was me...
I had to sacrifice several of my VIPs (Very Important Posts™), but I did it for ya'll...
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:04pm PT
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k-man
What spun me off was Karl’s statement:
“It's worth noting that, in this discussion, there are those who claim their way is the only way, and those who admit that both ways have a place. There is a difference in anal-reality-retention between these standpoints that's worth noting.”
That statement attempts to co-opt the high moral ground by stating that he (Karl) and those sharing his view are open, flexible, peace-loving types while I (he named me specifically in his post) and those sharing my view are the intolerant, inflexible, anal-retentive ones. The logical end to his view is that any climb which employs any tactic should be fully accepted (with his later qualification ‘so long as it is legal’, and perhaps we should add ‘so long as it directly hurts no one else’) and that anyone who objects to any such climb is the fool.
My point is that the position “rap bolting SFHD is good” is a position just as narrow, inflexible, and of no higher moral ground than the position “rap bolting on SFHD” is bad. Having the view that “every view is valid” is a view of its own and carries all the baggage that goes with holding a view.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:05pm PT
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DR
I just got around to a careful reading of your post from early this morning:
“I contributed to leaving behind a legacy that is less clear cut than my trad roots. This makes me nervous. Because if you want black and white answers about how to climb a rock, they damn sure aren't here in the route we made.”
Your post helps me come closer to accepting GU. While you are proud of the route and would do it again, you are obviously thinking, trying to make good routes, and not frozen into a belief system. While I’m not yet happy with or accepting of GU, you get a lot of credit for openness and reasonableness. Perhaps I have something to learn from you about how I process conflicting ideas.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:16pm PT
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Having the view that “every view is valid” is a view of its own and carries all the baggage that goes with holding a view.
In another time's forgotten space
Your eyes looked from your Mother's face
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:29pm PT
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Thanks SlipKnot,
It was your dialog with Spencer that got me thinking about your "two way street." I realized that while I've been defending GU, I also admire Coz for his style, so it's really important to stand up and say that I'm still basically a trad climbing and always will be.
Ain't no dark side, but:
Oh well, a touch of grey
Kinda suits you anyway.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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Slipknot wrote
"My point is that the position “rap bolting SFHD is good” is a position just as narrow, inflexible, and of no higher moral ground than the position “rap bolting on SFHD” is bad. Having the view that “every view is valid” is a view of its own and carries all the baggage that goes with holding a view."
I'm not placing a moral ground on it here. I think putting up X rated routes and rap bolted routes both have their admirable and negative qualities. Seeing all sides and having a tolerance is different that holding a Taliban attitude on one end of the equation.
Peace
karl
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