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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:52am PT
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Save the babble Cozzie.... the horse is dead, and I assure you, there might only be 15 guys on this thread that understand, and I'll count myself in with those.
The South Face is DEAD! Long live the South Face!
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grover
Social climber
Akanada
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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In the big picture we are all right, yet all wrong.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:16am PT
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note to Coz: less posting while on wine.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:21am PT
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coz wrote: Collapse, yes, rap bolting Half Dome, I think is the beginning of the end; hope I am wrong.
You are!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:39am PT
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Cheers! you guys on both (various?) sides!
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grover
Social climber
Akanada
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:51am PT
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"but I know that like a protester in communist China, I stood in front of a tank."
People have died doing exactly that.
Is this really a comparative issue?
Where are we going with all this?
Will this ever go beyond the comfort of our homes, cafes and vans?
Would any of you say these words up-front, face to face with ?????????
HMmmmmmmmmm.??????????????
So many ?'s, so little beer.
What say you ?
mark
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:00am PT
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Hi coz, hows it going?
It's a matter of perspective and ideals. There is more than one way to skin a cat (what a stupid saying, I mean, who actually skins cats?). You are not wrong in so far as from your perspective you are holding true to the experiences and ideals that have shaped your life and constitute your perception of reality and your place in it. Moreover, there are plenty of others who agree with you.
You are only wrong by the standards of those other people whose ideals, life experiences, and perception of reality differ, if ever so slightly from your own. And there are plenty of people who disagree with your perspective.
If you percieve rap bolted routes on Half Dome as the beginning of the end (collapse), then you will invariably encorporate an endless list of examples from your personal experience to reaffirm your position, and further entrench your belief that you are right.
It is an odd thing, because admitting that you are wrong (and I'm not saying that you are) would require a restructuring of your constructed reality, and possibly create contradictions within yourself and your life experiences. That is why we are well over 2000 posts deep into this sucker, and acheiving very little in the way of ideological persuasion. People contilually look for opportunities to reaffirm their construction of reality, rather than to find ways to reshape it.
My words, not Bob's.
Ok, no more wine for me~~~~~~~Your turn Bob. nighty-night. SA
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:26am PT
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Another overlay photo guess (photo does not show certain key dike features on Growing Up and features on Southern Belle p4-6).
[Edit #1 - noon: overlay revised - thanks for Jim for posting the photo overlay from the 1993 Reid Yosemite Big Walls guide. I made the Lost Again line follow that, and I also changed the line for Southern Belle P4-6. But I'm not confident of that line because the 1993 line shows Southern Belle exiting the corner at a spot that I think is too high.]
[Edit #2 - 1am 5/1: After checking several photos, including especially Ben's, the exit point for Southern Belle in the 1993 overlay is correct, so I have modified the color overlay to change that.]
Cleaned up single page topo for Growing Up:
[Edit: changed p7 text to:
10" wide, sloping lb ]
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/growingup.pdf
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:36am PT
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Russ wrote
"note to Coz: less posting while on wine."
Funny, there's been a few posts from different folks on this thread that might have been affected by posting on wine.
But a lot more that were posting on Whine.
I have a couple of partners that whine and dine with me, where the original whine is drown in wine.
But I swear I'm straight right now and going to bed.
The fact is, with the way the world is going, we'll be lucky if we get around to having a problem with too many routes or too many climbers on Half Dome.
More likely $15 a gallon gas and economic rap-bolting will keep the riff-raff away and more.
Peace
karl
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 09:27am PT
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"It is an odd thing, because admitting that you are wrong (and I'm not saying that you are) would require a restructuring of your constructed reality, and possibly create contradictions within yourself and your life experiences."
Spencer, that would seem to be a two way street, would it not? If you are not insinuating that Coz is the one who's screwed up, why did you direct your thoughts toward him?
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 30, 2008 - 09:57am PT
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Good morning Slipknot,
Yeah, two way street indeed. We are all screwed up. It's all relative. There are no absolutes. I just directed my thoughts toward Coz because he asked. Not to me, but it sounded like he wanted to know. That's ok isn't it? He prolly already knows that chit anyway. Just thinking out loud. I was feeling sort of Baba-esque(tm). Also, I thought I made it pretty clear, especially in the quote that you re-posted, that I'm not suggesting that he is wrong...but then again, he might be. It depends on one's _ and their _. Just substitute the word "One" or "Ones" for the word "Your". Does that change things for the bettter?
Have a great day. I know I will, my wife is defending her Master's thesis later this morning. YEAH BABY! GIT-R-DUN!
*answers: evitcepsrep, slaedi
Nice image Clint. Looks SWEEEEET!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:09am PT
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Coz...the so called "beginning of the end" happened a long time ago as Steve stated...that so 1980's.
I gave a few examples of a routes in RMNP that created the same type of discussion and passion that GU has.
They might have been the start of something but for sure haven't been the end of the end of trad-climbing in the Park.
I saw were you stated you wanted a family...I hope that happens for you...somehow having a family (wife and children) put this rock climbing bullshit into prespective and shows what really is important.
I been married for 33 years of of the 37 years I been climbing...I also raised with my wife three children during that time. Looking back at some of the routes (r/x) I did during that time I was really irresponsible to my family and their welfare.
As to SB...you did a great job and stuck to your guns....quite impressive and hats of to you. Sean took a different path, worked hard for months to climb a really good route...hats off to him.
Let history be the judge of Sean route just as it has been the judge of SB.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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Spencer, Fair enough.
Edit
I still pondering the assertion that everything is or should be relative. Here's a potential new thread:
Thread title: Coz is a GW Bush Christian
Post: It's obvious, but let me connect the dots in case you missed it. He (alone) believes: that society should have a basic set of guiding values, his world view is tunnel-vision built on his own experiences, entrenched in his own beliefs, unable to admit he was wrong, unwilling to consider he was wrong, internal self-condtradictions, believes Yosemite (his environment) is "hallowed granite". Hmmm, does that mean Bachar is a Bible-thumper too!!!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:54am PT
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"...admitting that you are wrong (not saying that you are)"
and
feeling with a calm certainty that you are right.
Speaking for myself, I go back and forth between, within, those poles like some quantum entity that is, yes, a particle and, certainly also, a wave.
As good an experiential repudiation as I can find, in my gut, of trying to reach an absolute conclusion about matters of ethics and style. It ain't happening. And it's no accident that the nature of bolting on rock has spawned this question, which is starting to seem damn near eternal. 2000 posts...
I am a trad. Always started with my feet on the ground. With skill and luck sometimes reached the summit. So far, always made it back down.
This time, while listening to the stone, I got a different answer. The possibilities offered by subtle combinations of holds -- pretty darn small holds -- on the South Face, couldn't even be seen from below as they wove through the, equally prominent, patches of blankness. The opportunities to protect such a tenuous line of holds in any traditional manner also seemed remote and strung out -- beyond our personal sense of acceptable danger, and beyond our sense of how dangerous a climb we would feel comfortable leaving for the future.
So this one time, responding to the stone as I found it, I went beyond my trad self. Likely I never will again.
It was not arrogance to listen to the stone and get a different answer. Listening instead of blabbing is an act of humility.
I helped to fashion a climb I'm proud of. You're welcome. Soon it will be climbed, again and again, and we will see how others find it.
I contributed to leaving behind a legacy that is less clear cut than my trad roots. This makes me nervous. Because if you want black and white answers about how to climb a rock, they damn sure aren't here in the route we made. The guidelines from this are more "maybe," more dependent on how you see the stone above you. More your responsibility to preserve the adventure that is climbing by using your head and your heart about whatever you do on whatever stone you find.
It certainly is not a license to drill blindly from the top to the bottom of any wall you meet, hoping you can climb it. That is artificial, theoretical, and arrogant. It's not listening to the stone.
Good Luck.
Be Careful.
And Peace.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Gunks, NY
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:57am PT
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Tradition is a means to an end, that end being consideration and care for the abstract ideal embodied in the tradition itself that can subsequently be passed on. It is possible for an ideal to outlive a tradition that once was its very safeguard. When people become so attached to tradition itself that they begin to see it as an end in and of itself, all their good intentions and crusading only serves to turn off would-be supporters, because they refuse to adapt—sacrificing the ability to insure that the intrinsic ideal will continue beyond their time.
Cherish tradition by sharing it and passing it along, not by keeping others out to preserve your own achievements. As a new climber myself, who really cares A LOT about preserving ethics and standards even though the many others my own age (25) could give a damn about them, it seems counter productive that many of the older “guardians” of the ethical high ground seem to sit atop their ethically correct achievements to the exclusion of many.
GU was put up with a great deal of care and consideration to the end that more people would be able to respect and appreciate the beauty and majesty of this awesome megalith. What do you pass along to coming generations if you give nothing to the future that anyone can actually connect with? I am not suggesting that this climb or any climb should be “brought down” in terms of ease to be more palatable to the average person. I am simply pointing out that safety and skill are not the same, nor should they be treated as such.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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Slippidy-doo-dah,
There is one absolute. There absolutely are bolts placed in the rock. That is a fact. Questions about right or wrong, good or bad don't have absolutes (in my flea-bitten opinion).
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Eddie
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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After all this...
Has anyone changed there mind?
Let's hear from those who have slid one way or the other on the spectrum of "chop those evil things" to "that's the coolest route ever"
pete
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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Spencer wrote
"It is an odd thing, because admitting that you are wrong (and I'm not saying that you are) would require a restructuring of your constructed reality, and possibly create contradictions within yourself and your life experiences."
then slipknot wrote
"Spencer, that would seem to be a two way street, would it not? If you are not insinuating that Coz is the one who's screwed up, why did you direct your thoughts toward him?"
It's worth noting that, in this discussion, there are those who claim their way is the only way, and those who admit that both ways have a place.
There is a difference in anal-reality-retention between these standpoints that's worth noting.
Peace
karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:44pm PT
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"After all of this...
Has anyone changed there mind?"
All this discussion has certainly made me look at my views of FAs.
I've been solidly in the camp that you start at the bottom and climb up. But with this route, I see there can be good reasons to look at other approaches.
Nature, way back up thread, gave a good example of why rap bolting can be a good thing. Slowly, I've seen that there are indeed places where climbing from the ground just doesn't work so well.
Of course, Growing Up is different in that it could have been done without uncoiling the ropes on top. The amount of time it took the FA team to make that decision doesn't escape me. The footsteps of Doug also carry weight for me.
I honestly think that if Sean and team were allowed to power drill, things might have been different. But, given the available tools, they did what they thought was best.
I am still anti-rap bolting. The thought of it makes my skin crawl. Yet I can see this route as being one where a different viewpoint can be valid.
PS. Clint, Thank You! for that topo.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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KB
I like to hunt bald eagles by helicopter in Alaska. What do you think of that?
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