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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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Karl,
Awaiting your response. What will it be? Phone a friend, Poll the Taco audience, Switch question, or take your earnings and withdraw from the thread?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:35pm PT
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Good work on the topo.
Why does this route (which has KNOTT had a FA) get a name, number grading, and a star-quality rating?
Curious, but having put up a few FA's of my own, I am not surprised--the 3P's.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
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Slipknot wrote to Karl
"I like to hunt bald eagles by helicopter in Alaska. What do you think of that?"
as a balding guy myself, I think you're satan!
but heh, eagles are predators too, so what goes around comes around.
yet I feel it would be more trad if you climbed, ground up, into their nests and shot them with a bow and arrow....
And one more thing, there is a difference between the taste of reality between false hypothetical examples and real world examples. The world has has many facets and shades of grey, and made up reality fails the sniff test.
But to help you out.
Whether it's moral to live "in sin" without being married is a personal choice, a style issue between you, your partner and God.
If you want to marry an 11 year old, I think society needs to say 'No, that's a collective moral issue because the life of one too young to consent is involved." Yet, I believe someone accused of something like that should get due process of law, even though I don't agree with their alleged action.
There's a difference between those statements and "people who have sex outside marriage are sinners and will burn in hell" and "People who marry 11 year olds are pedophiles and should be shot first and questioned later"
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:47pm PT
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Huh? I always thought the "3 Ps" were Procreation, Passion, or Pleasure.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:51pm PT
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"Good work on the topo.
Why does this route (which has KNOTT had a FA) get a name, number grading, and a star-quality rating?
Curious, but having put up a few FA's of my own, I am not surprised--the 3P's."
Saying it hasn't had an FA is just a "panties in the bunch" way of speaking. You can then say it will "never have an ascent" due to it's tainted character.
If you feel that way, don't consider it a climbing star rating, imagine them as imaginary starry-eyed stars for climbers doing imaginary non-routes.
The climbing rating and star rating come from extremely experienced climbers who have shown us pictures of their route and until their opinion is proven otherwise, it's reasonable to go with it.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
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I'm surprised, looking at the topo that nobody's complaining about the apparantly bolted wide physical 12a crack on pitch 7. '
How wide is that thing? I thought it was only Harding and Bridwell that bolted cracks in Yosemite. Just bringing it up since it was bound to be discussed.
That's another aspect of equiping the climb for future do-the-route-fast-and-light climbers that should be good for a few more dozen (or hundred) posts.
good job on the topo clint
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/growingup.pdf
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:57pm PT
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I don't think the question should be asked "did anyone change their mind?" I think a more appropriate question to ask is "does anyone now have a deeper understanding of the feelings and issues on both sides of the discussion?"
While I don't agree with the style of the GU ascent, I now have a deeper understanding of why some people feel that the style is acceptable and also, more importantly, what they want to experience while rock climbing.
Bruce
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jstan
climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:00pm PT
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Hey!
Looks like a smiley face.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
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Karl asks "I'm surprised, looking at the topo that nobody's complaining about the apparantly bolted wide physical 12a crack on pitch 7."
I was getting there, but I can only do so much.
Bruce
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 03:08pm PT
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Karl, Your “help” didn’t help me.
>There's a difference between those statements and "people who have sex outside marriage are sinners and will burn in hell" and "People who marry 11 year olds are pedophiles and should be shot first and questioned later"
Maybe I’m a little slow here, but what is that “difference” you allude to? The only clear difference that comes from your post is that one act is currently legal and the other act is currently illegal and therefore “should get due process of law”.
PS Ground up into the eerie with bow and arrow . . . nice. Maybe limiting myself to just a crag hammer would be even better.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 30, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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Funny the comment about being married and having children changing ones perspective. I started climbing before being married, don't know if that matters, have three children, and am really enjoying getting them into climbing.
This thread has for me more entrenched that ideal that ground up is where it's at, and what it's about. I have rap bolted routes in the past.
To me the process and the adventure is important. To an extent ou could say it's like a product, let's say a guitar. One can get a guitar put together on an assebly line, or one that is built by hand, with blood sweat and tears. To me the blood sweat and tears put life, character, a uniqueness into the end product.
Rap bolting is like the factory assembly line. No blood sweat and fear on the part of the bolter. Ok, hand drilling adds the sweat for sure, but it is a totally different experience than on lead, groaning on a stance, or freaking that your hooks will fail and you'll take the whipper.
Climbing is about overcoming your fears, not removing all trace of them. Well, at least that's what climbing means to me.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 03:55pm PT
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> I'm surprised, looking at the topo that nobody's complaining about the apparantly bolted wide physical 12a crack on pitch 7. '
> How wide is that thing? I thought it was only Harding and Bridwell that bolted cracks in Yosemite. Just bringing it up since it was bound to be discussed.
Steppin' Out (5.10d ow near Reed's) has 2 protection bolts.
JayBro's "JCA's Wide World of Sports" route on Balch Camp Flake has pro bolts.
http://www.widefetish.com/features/jays_wws/jays_wws.html
There's also Perry's Lieback on the Grand Wall at Squamish - bolted lieback/undercling. Could be protected with several huge cams, but it's many pitches up and few people want to carry those up there....
Of course, there are also many ows without bolts, including hard ones like those on Excalibur. So it's one of those judgement calls, up to the people doing the FA. (For the Excalibur ows, it was an FFA, so adding bolts was probably not an acceptable option).
As usual, people could probably bring big cams and ignore the bolts on any of these climbs.
[Edit: my assumption in the above was that the "wide" was an ow or something similar. But I was wrong. In Sean's post below, he explains that p7 is a 10" wide, sloping lieback. So I have added this text to the topo to make this clear.]
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:08pm PT
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Slipknot wrote
"Maybe I’m a little slow here, but what is that “difference” you allude to"
I'm not up to explaining it. Supertopo addiction is killing me!
If you reread my post and still don't get it, we can agree to disagree
Which is of course, another alternative to absolutist thinking
Peace
Karl
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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aka punt
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:15pm PT
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"The other essential idea of Buddhism (more accurately called a science of mind than a religion) is that we can change our world by changing how we choose to look at the world. 'There is nothing either good or bad," as Hamlet said, "but thinking makes it so.'"
From an article on the Dali Lama
I don't know, I just thought it relevant.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:17pm PT
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SlipKnot, if you see that marrying an 11-year old is only wrong because it's illegal, then of course you will not understand what Karl is saying.
BTW Karl, I've really enjoyed many of your posts in this thread. Very thoughtful.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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My concern, based solely on KB's recent posts is that HE sees marrying an 11-year old is only wrong because it's illegal. I doubt, however, that such is his view, which begins to expose contradtion in his statments.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:43pm PT
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KB wrote: If you want to marry an 11 year old, I think society needs to say 'No, that's a collective moral issue because the life of one too young to consent is involved."
SlipKnot, I think you're reading with blinders on.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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I guess that's mutual. If KB wants to engage with my last question, fine. If he wants to ignore potential problems that might be probed and continue on in his effort to push this thread to 3000, that's fine too.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 05:05pm PT
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Dood, I don't want to get in the middle of you and Karl. But, is this your question: "I like to hunt bald eagles by helicopter in Alaska. What do you think of that?"
For one, I don't see any connection with this to the SFoHD.
Second, can you really hunt Bald Eagles by helicopter?
Last, I think Karl did address your question, try rereading his posts (without the blinders).
Cheers...
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