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Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Apr 20, 2008 - 12:21pm PT
Coz, I am disappointed.

I'm all about spirit. I climb for it. And I like to spread it around. It's one of the big reasons I'm a guide. (Sure isn't the money; hard way to make a meager living.) But the smiles, the excitement, the serenity, a shift in someone's life -- pretty cool.

Snake Dike is the most spirited route on HD. More climbers face more fear at their level, more lives are tempered by rising to that occasion. More joy, more serenity, more transcendence. Gobs of each.

Of course I'm talking democratic here, and of course you're talking elitist. But there's room for both. Spreading the wealth on Snake Dike takes nothing away from how badass Southern Belle was for you and still is. It's gotten more elite Since the FA, your FFA, Caylor's disaster and the second ascent. The legend grows. And its stature is increased again by Growing Up.

Southern Belle is a high water mark in the history of runout free climbing in Yosemite -- and around the world. It stands as a measure of one dimension of spirit, way out at the ragged edge of what's humanly possible. Very cool.

But I like to respect spirit, and encourage it, wherever I find it. For an agoraphobic (literally, fear of the marketplace), opening the front door is already runout and stepping into the street can take years of courage. Not the same world I live in, but I can honor it in its context just as I honor your climb in yours.

It reminds me in a way of John Bachar, standing by a gas pump in Tuolumne, cornered by someon'e rap of "you're crazy to solo," just looking calmly back at the guy and saying: "You're soloing right now."

I'm gonna catch it, again, for getting all public-servicy on you here, but don't forget I'm a guide: I take other people's experience seriously in my professional life. And if it spills over into my personal life, if you catch me by the trailside giving beta to some stranger because it might reduce his danger, encourage her experience, even nourish an opportunity for some spirit to develop -- well, deal with it. No skin off anyone's selfish ass.

I'm excited about Growing Up because it opens up opportunity for spirit to blossom where none existed before. Or we could downshift that to a chance to have fun if this is getting a bit highfalutin'. You framed it as spirit; I'm comfortable running with that.

That chance for fun or opportunity for spirit is a little more democratic than on Southern Belle. And a lot more elite than Snake Dike. It's there for a few of today's climbers, and a lot more of tomorrow's. Like some of the folks whose spirits are raised this summer on Snake Dike will return in 2014 to test their considerably improved mettle on Growing Up, and may yet be back two years after that for a career highlight ascent of Southern Belle.

That's damn sure not me. I'll never lead either of those climbs. Way out of my league. I can aspire to doing some of the upper pitches of GU. And I'll probably lead the first pitch too, since I like Valley cracks.

But I did step up and help with the decisions that went into Growing Up. And once they were made, I put a lot of sweat, and the cost of some stainless bolts, and some blisters on my hammer hand into creating the climb.

Yes, it makes the South Face of Half Dome a less elite place, and a less solitary place. Yes, our community gets to deal with the access problems that go with it. We've already started. We put up ducks to mark what we think is the best trail last summer, for instance, after becoming -- quite incidental fallout from our passion for this route -- the local experts on the terrain below the face.

I'm good with that too. More opportunity for more spirit for more climbers. And I happen to know -- again, incidental to my passion -- that there is a huge wilderness out beyond Half Dome with thousands of routes waiting. Longer approach, but you can handle it. For practical purposes it's several generations worth of opportunity just waiting out there for exploration, adventure, and developing the human spirit.

Have fun.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 20, 2008 - 01:16pm PT
Long runouts aren't Caylor's only claim to fame I hear...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 20, 2008 - 01:30pm PT
it is amazing that the FA team was not smart enough to realize that this would be very controversial. to hear DR still trying to pathetically justify the climbs existence when it sounded like he was mostly a porter and a high angle expansion bolt installer. WTF?

btw, for Docter and Patrick, yes i have done FA of multipitch gu routes. tried to do them in the style of clean climbing i am sure that DR remembers that. BFD does that qualify me for this sh#t storm on ST?
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Apr 20, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
Of course we knew it would be controversial.

Predicted what the objections would be too -- not rocket science.

And then with all that in mind, and more, we made our best decision.

Not pathetic to me. I'm proud.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Apr 20, 2008 - 01:53pm PT
If I were to hold the rope for the Doctor of Chiropractic on one of his multi-pitch GU FA's,
could I per chance raise my status from "hanger on" to belay slave, or Sub-Man Supreme™?

Would that mean I had earned the necessary clout to talk shít on the internets?

Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Apr 20, 2008 - 02:08pm PT
Hey Doc,

Yeah, some of Sean's other routes in the Valley (and beyond) are stellar! Too bad the new guide's not out, or more people would realize that. (Though I hear the guide's on its way, two monts or less.) Those Ribbon Falls routes are big Grade Vs partly bolted up steep aretes -- their position is outstanding. And one over by Bridalveil, I think it's called Momma, again takes a line with incredible position. One Reeder shot at a 5.12 crux shows that so well it's been reprinted several places. Including the cover of some catalog (Metolius maybe?).

Not sure why Sean doesn't like to say "proud" (modest maybe?), but whatever, those are fine modern free climbing lines that I think are destined to become classics.

And that's just the ones in the Valley...
The Doctor

Social climber
Da Bronx
Apr 20, 2008 - 02:18pm PT
Hey Knott, sub-man supreme sounds good to me. I didn't know one needed any qualifications to spout on the internet.Carry On, The Dr.
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Apr 20, 2008 - 03:09pm PT
Things you didn't know about Sean Jones:

He sports a YES tat.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Apr 20, 2008 - 07:40pm PT
Karl,

What's with the harshing on coz for having fixed lines on the FFA? Is that supposed to equate to rap bolting? Those guys were trying to get it done on weekends, during extreme heat.

It seems clear enough to me that Scott and Sean are not used to all the miscommunication that can happen in online forums like this one (OK, to be frank, they are forum noobs - they are reacting to some harsh words like we all did when getting started with this weird online thing). They should meet in the real world and they would probably get a good understanding of each other's perspective. It wouldn't mean they would agree on whether the style of bolting Growing Up was good or bad or whatever. Just to understand each other's point of view.
marky

climber
Apr 20, 2008 - 07:57pm PT
superb post
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Apr 20, 2008 - 07:59pm PT
Oops, sorry dude!

I dropped your genertor righ over Nevada Falls.

Just trying to help...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 20, 2008 - 08:29pm PT
Clint wrote

"What's with the harshing on coz for having fixed lines on the FFA? Is that supposed to equate to rap bolting? Those guys were trying to get it done on weekends, during extreme heat. "

I wasn't meaning to be harsh.

I think it's fair that since Coz started this thread and, after hearing all sides of the issue, is still coming down hard on the route, that he justify his own route and tactics in light of this strict ethic of climbing a route without bringing it down to size with various engineering tricks.

It's my contention that fixed lines, like Deucy said, are engineering from the bottom like rap bolting is engineering from the top. If a free climb hasn't been climbed without fixed ropes, that's an important point if we're arguing about bringing the stone down to size.

The other point being, sorry to repeat myself, one person has their excuses for their route while dismissing the other guy's excuse for their route. One person's brand of "cheating" is shared by more people so it's more OK, than some newer brand of cheating.

I'm not saying they are equal, just having the discussion about why, if the ethic is so strict, didn't they just go climb their super classic route in a continous push? Check out the topo posted from another thread. Similar to the fact that GU was done in two sections, imagine the diiference in Jugging most, if not all, of the 5.12 before the leadouts.


Peace

Karl


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 20, 2008 - 08:45pm PT
"So I am wanting someone to help us haul our generator to Half Dome! Anyone? "

Ethics dictates hauling your own generator (or hire a mule from the concession)
also, don't run the electric cord from the summit or the base, fixed lines are cheating.

The Old Skool is rite, this generation doesn't get it!
bob d'antonio

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Apr 20, 2008 - 10:35pm PT
Everyone and their mother has an opinion on what you did wrong on a first ascent...and everyone and their mother could have done it better.

Funny how that works.

To answer the Doctor...I put up a new 13a-b slab route with my climbing partner of 20 years...4 pitches...12b...13a-b...12a and 5.9...no matter how we did it...someone would complain...or do better.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Apr 20, 2008 - 11:27pm PT
Karl writes:
"It's my contention that fixed lines, like Deucy said, are engineering from the bottom like rap bolting is engineering from the top."

Hang on, there might be a logical inconsistency in your quote of my statement. Even if fixed ropes (whether from top or bottom) = sieging, that does not necessarily equate to "engineering from bottom" = "engineering from top". There are obviously other qualifiers at work with the second statement.

DR-reagarding multipitch FAs, probably Autobahn is most relevant to this discussion, though on that one, Cole and Reno had previously climbed the first 10 pitches, then I was recruited by Cole to get through the final bit (I remember Cole shouted out, "Bring on the Ringer!", when I got over the roof on the 5.11+ lead--it was some pretty good psyche at the time).

Other than that, I climbed most of the 5.11c (or easier) Yosemite long routes in Clint's list at http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/longhf.htm

(umm, methinks this thread might be heading into an extreme chest-beating testorestone fest--sorry to add to that...)
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 20, 2008 - 11:35pm PT
Deucy wrote

"There are obviously other qualifiers at work with the second statement. "

Sure, agreed. Sieging is different than Rap Bolting. The question is how different and it's open for debate here.

Folks shouldn't have knee jerk reaction and just say "It's always been the case with big walls and so it's Ok" We're talking about a free route here and it could be argued that in the free-climbing game, doing a continuous ascent is the gold standard of actually climbing it in the good style exemplified by the high-minded statements people have made on this thread.

Once we get into various forms of cheating, we enter a big grey area and GU is part of that grey area. If Sean goes back and does his continuous ascent, it will mean something.

Peace

Karl
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 20, 2008 - 11:56pm PT
The Doctor asks: I was just wondering, out of the last 1665 posters, how many of you have ever put up a multi-pitch FA, any where, in any style. As far as new routes in The Valley it seems like Sean Jones is about the only climber left with the vision, talent and motivation to make it happen.

I just got back from the Valley after helping ablegabel put up a route, with alternative finishes... these are crack lines with a 20 minute approach which will probably not be done again, but they are great pitches, 5.10... and were put up in great style (we just climbed them). Not even that mungie, but fresh with crumblies as a lot of routes are. They'd clean up real nice with a few more climbers.

Perhaps the only violation of the "best style" was that we brushed the best line a bit after climbing it (I did when I was being lowered, as Eric had requested it and sent me up with the brush on my follow).

There are a lot of routes put up in the Valley, not just by Sean Jones. I haven't actually climbed any Sean Jones routes because I don't have an information about them, and from what I've heard, they are probably more difficult than I would venture out on. What little I've heard, people like them.

We ran into Jay Wood on Saturday morning as we were scouting locations to shoot pictures of cliffs... we asked him what he was thinking of doing and he said Dream Easy. Eric put that route up earlier this year, I think I wrote about how we did it earlier in this thread... a nice 5.8 which seems to have become a little bit popular. Who knew...

It is one of dozens of climbs I've done with Eric, you can search the STForum to see other trip reports from these outings.
Jaybro

Social climber
The West
Apr 21, 2008 - 12:21am PT
"I was just wondering, out of the last 1665 posters, how many of you have ever put up a multi-pitch FA, any where, in any style."

Um, I have. I don't think any of them are in areas your guidebooks cover, as far as I can remember, though.

I don't think there was anything lacking in the style of the 'The Passionate Life' .11 wide @ Balch Camp flake; Onsight, free, no drilling... though we used existing bolts to rap...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 21, 2008 - 01:05am PT
I done dun a cuple/three of them multi-pitch new route thingies,
--and I definitely beat my chest when I topped out.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
Apr 21, 2008 - 01:13am PT
By Jupiter, There are Rings Around Uranus
Courtright Reservoir with Herb Laeger.

6 pitches. 5.11d. Stanced, on sight.

Luck of the draw I led the hard pitches.



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