Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Snowmonkey
Ice climber
San Carlos, CA
|
|
I wouldn't say Doug is hurling insults: merely stating a fact of what a litigious state this has become. And he is not referring to all lawyers, obviously.
Re: Doug's point: it would also seem that with enough disclaimers posted in big letters at the canyon entrance (just like in ski areas and such), Edison won't have to worry about people suing them - let's face it, there aren't so many ice climbers to start with, there are even fewer who can afford a lawyer of any sort, and yet even fewer who would try to sue Edison, and if you multiply all of these on the chance of actually getting hurt seriously, we're talking about really small number. Also, it appears to be Edison who maintains a (fee/based) campground around Courtright reservoir, right at the bottom of Marmot Rock - where in addition to potential climbing fall, you can be mauled by bears, bitten by snakes etc. - so maybe if climbers and businesses speak with one voice, they will listen and weigh the risks. I am sure people would pay a campground fee to have the Bard-Harrington and further left walls farmed during the winter.
getting JL involved seems like a great idea: i am sure he has all kinds of materials to back-up the claims of positive impact of an ice-park to the area.
|
|
Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
|
|
Looks like liability is not an issue as long as you have an ice-climbing attorney willing to take the case for free. (propbably half a dozen regular supertopo lurkers willing and qualified)
CA Government Code Section 846 make private land owners immune from liability for injuries suffered for people who enter their land free of charge for recreational purposes. 846 also provides for partial reimbursement to landowners who defended a claim under 846 for their attorneys fees incurred.
|
|
tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
Hey Doug. I'm a reporter with the local news. I met you the other day at the gorge. If you're interested in getting the word out locally, drop me line.
I saw the Inyo Supervisors posted above. LV is Mono County. While the Inyo folks might be interested. It's the Mono Supes, specifically Vikki Bauer in June Lake, who would be most interested.
Can it be done? I don't know, but it doesn't sound unreasonable.
Tom
|
|
Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
|
|
The river community has been dealing with Edison, PG&E and other entities on this sort of thing for many years. We have been pretty successful in getting scheduled releases to rivers for recreation and that is talking about huge volumes of water.
One way is through the FERC relicensing process, but those only come up every thirty years. If you can find the project number then you can find out when it is next relicensed. You can lobby FERC to mandate a small water release during winter for recreational ice climbing. Really, you lobby the forest service, the local politicos and anybody who might support you, just as you are talking about now.
Liability is, I think not a stopper on something like this, though some will yell and scream about it. California has pretty strong liability protections related to recreational activities. People drown in Edison lakes periodically and they don't have to drain the lakes or take down the dams even if somebody falls off one. American Whitewater has done a lot of work on researching liability laws and in lobbying agencies and such. See their stewardship page here:
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Stewardship_view_
California liabality page:
http://www.americanwhitewater.org/content/Wiki/do-op/id/liability:ca
Another good resource is the Hydropower reform coalition. http://www.hydroreform.org/
It does cost Edison money to allow the leaks to continue, especially if they run all year round. If you can device a way to allow the right amount of leakage only during the time when ice can form, the cost to them is much less. There is of course the capital cost of installing devices to release a measured amount of water at the right locations.
The key issue to remember is that Edison is using and making money with a public resource, water that belongs to the public. Also they operate on federal lands. Therefore the public can have a huge say in how they operate.
Now that they have stopped some leaks and you want them to restart some leaks, you should investigate how much flow it takes to make a good iceflow. Is it a gallon an hour, minute, second? Also, if you had a choice, where are the best potential locations for new icefalls?
I have not paid much attention to those east side power projects, but I will try to investigate further and report back. I have worked with Edison and FERC for many years on a number of west slope projects.
|
|
Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2008 - 09:56pm PT
|
I stand corrected here, thanks!
I would have to agree that hurling insults is generally unproductive. I was attempting to express my disgust re: the litigious nature of our society and the lack of personal responsibility either demonstrated and/or encouraged by segments of our communities. If the possibility exists to work with the US Forest Service, and SCE to farm ice in LVC this would be a great thing for the ice climbers of CA, the town of Lee Vining, and Mono County.
The north facing walls in the canyon have consistently good ice making temps, have a good variety of TR, single and multi-pitch ice, and some very good mixed lines.
where do we start?
Doug
|
|
Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
|
|
The Lee Vining Creek project has FERC project number P-1388. Use that number to search the FERC elibrary for all documents about the project including all kinds of maintenance and such. The project was most recently relicensed in 1997 and it won't expire till 2027. The relicensing process usually starts 7 or 8 years before the license expires so that process does not give you any near term help.
However, projects such as this always have to do a lot of recreation monitoring and adjusting. So there is probably potential to make minor changes as issues come up. The amount of water the icefalls need could be pretty minor.
There will be a lead person in the forest service who works with Edison on this and the other hydroprojects in the forest. Talk to that person and learn as much as you can while also explaining what a valuable resource the icefalls are.
I am negotiating with Edison on a Kern river project right now and that division is also in charge of the Lee Vining project. I will see what I can find out from this end.
|
|
travelin_light
Trad climber
california
|
|
Paul, thanks for all the great information!
|
|
10b4me
climber
1/2way between Yos and Moab
|
|
And I'm seriously offering the $1000 to start the paperwork, lettrhead, etc
thanks Jeff.
I heard that Edison plowed the paved portion of the road monday morning.
|
|
Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2008 - 10:17am PT
|
Hey Brian,
After some really good seasons, it's hard to go so far backwards. Good pics from your site ! Although "Bongo's" is a bogus name, should be "The Death of Right and Wrong"
Tom Woods: thanks for the offer, let's wait to see where this might go first.
Paul M. your info is appreciated, and usefull as there are meetings coming up in Lee Vining to discuss all this stuff
Doug
|
|
bearbnz
Trad climber
East Side, California
|
|
FWIW, the Poole Powerplant Road is still not open all the way up as of this morning (2/6/08), so it's a bit of a hike to get in there.
|
|
keith young
Trad climber
Stateline,nv
|
|
Been lurking for a while. I know a few folks that would contribute to the cause and I could also spread the word from Shasta to Bishop. I live in South Lake Tahoe and would be willing to donate a lot of footwork and time for whatever is needed. Lee Vining could be the next best thing to Ouray or Hyalite.
Keith
|
|
rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
|
|
Definitely get the local chamber of commerce involved as the business owners benefit from the climbers dollars. Motels, bars, restaurants(or restaurant, singular in Lee Vining), gas stations, bars, etc. should all see the $$ of climbers if the road is plowed and there some ice to climb. Especially the bars.
|
|
Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2008 - 11:08am PT
|
The Poole Plant road is now plowed. Fri Feb. 8. Yippee !!
Those of you who called Evan Nikirk asking/complaining about the road not being plowed might consider calling again and letting him know this is appreciated.
Doug
Nikirk Evan (enikirk@mono.ca.gov), (760) 932-5440
PS. i was in LVC yesterday, ice is growing, Chouinard Falls is in good Shape, the Main Wall has a few good looking lines, also Heel-Toe is in, and Passion is in.
|
|
Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2008 - 09:23pm PT
|
Road Plowed!!
|
|
rhyang
climber
SJC
|
|
Did anyone ever set up a nonprofit for ice farming ?
|
|
rwedgee
Ice climber
canyon country,CA
|
|
Rob, ask the Chief.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!