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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Best stance drillers I've climbed with (or seen)...
1) Tobin Sorenson
2) Kurt Smith
3) Bob Kamps
4) ......
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Trippel40
Trad climber
CO
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What is the stance driller's opinion regarding the efforts of organizations like ASCA to advocate larger diameter bolts claiming that this ensures 30 years or so of safety?
Im not trying to be a rabble rouser, just curious what y'all think.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Last week in the South Platte.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I took off from the belay up the steep headwall and got in a small stopper. Kept going up into harder ground and started getting pumped. No gear, no stance, nothing to hook even if I coulda let go to grab one. No where to go but up. 15/20 feet above the stopper it gets worse. Trembling and shaking I take the whipper- full on arm swinging, all air, and jumar back to the belay whipper.
Back up on it. Instead of punching it up the headwall I find a way to turn a little sideways bulge to get onto easier ground. Takes a hard and irreversible iron cross move to do it. Still no gear and nowhere to drill. Up up and up. 40 or 50 feet from the stopper that held my last fall. 10ish slab climbing. I'm seeing god. Finally, at last, a spot to stance drill...
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Greg Barnes
climber
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People were moving away from 1/4" long before the ASCA came along! The ASCA doesn't have a position advocating what bolts stance drillers use (I use 1/4" all the time, unless the stance is good enough for a bigger bolt - but I replace them right away. OK, I replace most of them right away...).
On the other hand, the ASCA (and locals all over the place who replace bolts now and in the future) would prefer that everyone use stainless bolts of at least 3/8" diameter, just so we don't have to go out and replace them in a couple decades. There's enough old mank that needs replacement, we don't need to go add to the problem. Especially 3/8" diameter non-stainless stud bolts, destined to be super ugly rusted and still hard to chop - and requiring a new hole when they are replaced.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Nice thread revival.
If ya'll don't mind, I'd like to insert here a few fine questions from Mr. Tarbuster, laboriously borrowed from yonder interesting "Side By Side Ethics" thread. These really didn't see a response there, but maybe we'll get a sense of it 'round this fire.
"I'd like to see trad survive, I think sport climbing is cool too. Just how robust is the current trad FA bolting movement and how can we assess that?"
and
"But from what I know, not that this is a problem, most young climbers focus their trad experiences on gear routes.
Around here, they rehearse and red point nasty cracks with poor pro; almost head point style. When they "clip bolts", they are thinking sport climb. I'm not so sure many of them are running out to look for stance drilling experiences."
Curious...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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ASCA 5-piece at top, 3/8" x 3" w/SS hanger, one of Roger Breedlove's Dolt 1/4" x 1" split shaft steel bolts, Powers 3/8" x 2.25" SS bolt with Metolius SS hanger and another of Roger's bolts...
some side-by-side comparisons
I was actually impressed at how well the old bolts had stood up, considering what they were. I'll gladly take the time to put the bigger bolts in...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Bob, whats up with the yellow diaper??
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Trippel40
Trad climber
CO
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Hey, Greg, sorry for any misumderstanding re. ASCA. I was just using as an example. I appreciate your insights!
While it definitely is fun doing routes ground up Ive hooked and drilled basically because I was too chicken to risk putting in a 3/8 inch or 12 mm bolt from a stance due to the length of time you'd need to hang out there so hooking was something I just took for granted as the approach on steep terrain. Its an education listening to this thread!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Heh heh, that's funny. I can say the exact opposite - I've stance drilled from dicey stances because i was too chicken to try a hook. Hooks pop, hooked edges crumble.
Besides, if you use 1/4" on granite on lead, you can pull them easily and replace them, and you can also move them easily and patch the old hole (eg the stance is over right but having the bolt a few feet left reduces rope drag).
A few years ago I did a fun slab, the first part of the first pitch one day, the top another time (oops, that reminds me that 3 of the bolts are still short 1/4", and Minerals wants me to add a pro bolt even though HE won't consider adding a bolt on a multipitch that we did...oops I'm getting off track...). There was clearly nothing to hook, so I left the hook on the ground, along with all the pro except some RPs. And then, on a much-more-sloping-than-I-had-hoped stance for the anchor, there was a perfect 1.5" hole with a nice lip (on granite slab). Dang it! I nearly always carried a hook before that - but I always carry a hook now.
One fun thing about replacing old bolts is checking out the stances - and every once in a while (or more often with some folks), the hidden bathook holes under the bottom of the hangers...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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thx HG.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 4, 2008 - 05:51pm PT
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Alright, Mr. Memory… Which route do I want you to add a bolt to? I can’t place it.
And the multi-pitch route… Nope, no 5th bolt for that pitch! ;)
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Egads, Ed.
Those split shaft bolts with Dolt hangers were top of the line in '72. Gravity must be way stronger now. Is that a global warming thing? Or just some sort of inflation?
I still have a few left in my bolt kit. I guess my idea of selling them on E-bay to sport climbers or Doug to help top up my retirement account is a lost cause.
Buzz
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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No pictures but here's a good story from our first ascent of Pizza Face. I pulled this out of a thread from MP.com. Youcan read the whole thread here: http://www.mountainproject.com/v/colorado/estes_park_valley/lumpy_ridge/105751048?highlightphrase=Pizza+Face&
Lots of good historical perspective on this thread. Here's the extracted story:
OK OK, I guess it's time to jump in here and tell the story of Pizza Face. First of all, that was my nickname in High School becaue I had some acne for a while. Nothing major but it was enough to earn me a nickname for it. It all started out as an expedition to climb Kite Slab, that wonderful face perched up high that didn't have any face routes on it. When we got to the base, my partner, Jim Brink, looked at the slab to the right of Endless Crack and said, "let's try it". He was able to climb it on a top rope so we sat down and had the "BOLT" discussion.
The situation at the time was this: Bolted face routes were going in right and left up there. The current standard was either "Skid You Not", put up by Aaron Walters and Billy Westbay (RIP) or "Labor of Lust" put up by Bill Wylie, Scott Kimball and Randy Joseph. By today's standards, both were runnout death routes, with more in common with Bachar-Yerian than with current sport routes. Think back: At that time, there was nothing even called a sport route, let alone a sport climb. There were bolted face routes and there were gear routes. Because this pre-dated sport climbing and power drills, the method of installation was an ethical concern. The norm was quarter inchers for pitch pro and 3/8" for belays. The most ethical way to place bolts was to start from the belay and climb until you found a place where you could stand and drill. If you were chicken, you'd hang a hook over the end of the bit, up against the rock, once the drill bit in a little, and you could take some weight off your feet. Next in the hierarchy was to find a hook placement and drill from there. That's why some bolt placements don_t make sense. Waaaaay down the ladder, and almost unthinkable at that time, was to drill from rappel. "Labor of Lust" was led from the ground up, the bolts placed from stances or while hanging on hooks. "Skid You Not" was TR'd and then drilled from rappel, at the time a heinous assault on ethics, but since it was Westbay who did it, and it was .11c, we all wrote it off to pushing the envelope.
So that was the landscape when Brink and I had our "BOLT" talk. We knew we could climb it, it was a well-defined line, admittedly squeezed, but, hell, we thought, "the Book really needs a face climb". So we set up a top rope, and Jim bolted it while he climbed it again. At that time we put in four bolts, the lowest one being the second one you see today. The edges were crumbly then, but edges on new rock are frequently crumbly and seem to clean up with traffic. Either we were wrong then or the route doesn't get much traffic.
The third pitch, Kite Slab was mine. I climbed up about 40-50 feet on 10-ish climbing (Somebody help me out here. It seemed like a long way above the belay. How far up is that first bolt?), and found a sketchy stance and started drilling. 30 minutes of tapping to get a 1" hole done and when I was banging in the split-nail, it bent down (I never was a good carpenter.), leaving a bad bolt stud. F*#k. I was 50 feet above the belay with no gear in and no possibility of getting gear other than a bolt. I hung a wired nut over the stud, clipped it and began another hole, still refusing to hang on the rope because I thought I was ethically pure. I didn't trust the bent over bolt much either. I drilled another hole next to it and began to tap in a button-head. These are weird bolts: You've got to put the stud through the hole on the hanger before you bang the stud in so It's a pain. The bolt rattles and the hanger gets in the way of the hammer. Ding, ding, ding with a rising tone; they sound just like a good pin going in. And then it happened again. I had it almost all the way in and the stud bent over. I stared stupidly at the hanger which was covering up the bad stud and cursed the fact that I was such a shitty carpenter.
I looked in my bolt bag and counted only two studs left. I looked up at 60-70 feet of slab left to climb and did the math. I had to go on what was in, even if that left me with guaranteed 30-foot runnouts. I clipped a runner into the two funky bolts, equalized them and took off. The climbing was teriffic_steep 10+ to 11- edgy, balancey face climbing that in another 15 or 20 led to another place to drill. Got a good one in here and could breathe again. One more bolt about 20 feet higher and I cruised to the roofs and some good natural pro. Then about 50 feet to the top.
I came back by myself the next day with a big hammer, a crow bar and more bolts to clean up the mess. I rapped down and chopped the bent stud, crow-barred the bad bolt and re-drilled the hole and placed a good bolt (As good as gets anyway.) at the base of Kite Slab. That was before the days when we thought about filling in holes and camouflage glue, so there's a stud you can see there below the surface of the rock.
Brink and I came back the next week to climb it clean all the way through. Brink got to lead the first pitch and was able to do it with only one slip. I followed clean and got Kite Slab. It went clean for me and we enjoyed the top for a while. Later that fall I came back and led the first pitch clean. Back at the base we established the crime scene. Jim felt like the first pitch needed another bolt at the bottom to 'define' it better, and make it a clean, all face lead. The first bolt was about 20 feet off the ground and since no-one had thought of the stick-clip idea yet, something was needed. Jim argued that requiring the leader to put in a cam up high on Endless Crack then traversing over to the first bolt ruined the beautiful line. I wasn't so sure but after 45 minutes of discussion about whether to do it or not, and soliciting the advice of a passing climber who thought it needed another bolt, Jim went ahead and put it in.
For better or worse, that's the story. Am I proud if it? As a route I don't know. Since it shares the second pitch with Endless Crack there are only two pitches of new climbing. Kite Slab is the most memorable pitch I've ever led. I'll never forget the pain in my toes while standing on 10b edges drilling the first bolt. I'll never forget the commitment I had to dig for in order to keep going that day. And I'll never forget the terrific climbing up there on that slab. The first pitch feels a bit less clean. It feels engineered, practiced and over-thought. What to do, whether to do it, and how to do it were all questions for both of us, leaving a slightly bitter taste after it was done. I get pissed when the guidebooks report Pizza Face as a one pitch route, leaving out what is possibly one of the best face pitches on Lumpy. But perhaps that's just a reaction to a schizzo route that has two distinct faces (NPI).
I don't think the route deserves the stink-bomb award. The climbing is good, waaaaay hard, and the position, especially Kite Slab, is terrific. Did we make mistakes? Sure, and I'd go back and correct if I could. Be careful about judging. The ethical landscape was changing every day (At that time Wilford wouldn't use Friends because of his ethically pure beliefs.) and it didn't just evolve in a stright line. It jumped back and forth, made advances in some way, lost it's purity in others. Every time a new route went in, the ethical envelope was stretched.
Sorry about the length but it's not an easy story to tell quickly.
Mal
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I blame the deterioration of bolt standards, and climbing standards generally, on dark energy.
1970s: Climbers were manly, bolts were manly, no dark energy.
2000s: Dark energy discovered, everything goes to pot.
You don't have to be a genius to know that dark energy is the next worst thing to the dark force. As for how dark matter fits into all this, we'll let Ed explain.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Here's a hint Minerals...lunge to a grainy sloper.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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great thread.
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HighGravity
Trad climber
Southern California
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Minerals, it is SDS only. There are two allen screws that hold it and the bolts lock the screws into place. I see it being a problem while changing bits on the sharp end, but it works good. The grip is great! I thwacked it twice while trying the drill out. My hand was sure glad to have the pad.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2008 - 12:55am PT
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Thanks for the info, HG. So it is similar to the old Dakota drill that John mentioned earlier, but with improvements? Good to see another hand drill on the market these days.
I had the chance to use a power drill on my leads any time that I wanted a couple months ago, but instead preferred to stick with one of my trusty Hurricanes. Guess I’m kinda stubborn… Or just hate the damn things because of the damage that has been done in the past when in the hands of the Nuker… Are power drills cheating when stance drilling? I know that it’s cool to use them for that other kind of climbing, but on a stance?
Ah, yes, Greg… THAT route… the one where I thought the hold was good but it wasn’t and it took everything that I had, just to hang on. Sure felt like I was close to going for a good ride, and over the corner. But you know, just like that other pitch, it’s THAT kind of climbing that really makes climbing what climbing is, and it’s those kinds of feelings that you don’t find very many other places – the feeling that sticks with you afterwards that constantly reminds you why climbing is such a blast, the feeling of coming really close to getting hurt, but ending up unscathed, the feeling of climbing out past a bolt, not knowing which way to go or if it will go, the feeling of joy when you get to a stance and realize that you can easily pull out the drill, the feeling of uncomfortable joy of reaching a sketchy stance and wondering how long you can stay put with hammer and drill in hand, the feeling of beginning the rigorous and wonderful task of slamming steel to steel to granite, the feeling of adding alloy to stone, and the feeling of completion, when the first belay bolt has been placed. I can’t wait.
Oh, man… rambling again… When we go back up there to add a second pitch, I know who’s leading that first pitch again! :-)
While we’re at it… does anyone know which is the best and easiest place to find a 17/64” DA collet for a Hurricane? I tried Granger in Reno with no luck. Internet? Someone needs one…
Hey, I kinda like this fridge concept… what a handy invention!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Minerals: stance drilling with Bosch is the way forward.... I use a 50' extension cord to keep the runouts under control. Might have some converts for this summer. Have power, will travel....
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