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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Dec 11, 2004 - 11:02am PT
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I believe the intentions of most climbers bringing a bolt kit on established routes, is in case something goes terribly wrong or some act of god (like rock fall) phucks up established bolts or anchors. I had a situation once on Lunar Eclips. First I took a good 40 footer upside down by pulling some rurps on the Devils Brow, althuogh I was now shaking in my boots I recoverd from this and kept on leading. I then got off route later in the pitch by not finding the crack that leads up out of the traverse. I kept climbing straight out of the traverse into no mans land. I got to a point were I was once again shaking in my boots. I called for the kit and drilled. Knowing I was not on Lunar anymore I felt no remorse other than just being stupid about not finding the way. My partner ended up finishing the pitch for me the next day. We just need to know when to use this tool and not. That sucks there are rivits in the chimney on Skull Queen, even though it is only 5.8 it was a real challange for me. And for the runout (now the not so runout) pitch on Lost in America I just brought a rope gun for that pitch it worked out really well. Lost in America needs to be repaired.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 11, 2004 - 11:26am PT
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I'll change my tone.
Tom - I brought bolt kit with me on Lunar (and every big wall). Bolt/rivits fail, belays often need an new one,etc. It's a must have.
My observation is that Pete brings his kit to ensure he can do the route. That, in my humble opinion, is very wrong from an ethical point of view. Anyone else agree?
In our case, on Lunar, we knew we'd probably need it. A huge chunk fell off the thing. I drilled about four rivits to the "new" section on the climb. I've no problem with this. My attitude was simple. The pitch (section) had gone before at A2 so when I hit the rating I started drilling. I recall hand placed beaks at first then tried some stacked blades pounded straight up once the traverse (where the rivits are) started. Those blades never held a jump test. I felt I had no choice but to add the rivits. I think I tried circleheads pounded straight up as well. No go their either. It was eithe rivits or bathooks. I'm of the opinion that if you are drilling a hole, fill the fricking thing.
Now, Keeping the four letter words out of this. I'm damn serious about figuring out what routes on my tick list Pete has not done. I really do want to get them before he brings them down to his level. (is this fair? Do I have a "right" to recognize and notice that he drills the crap out of every route he's done - making routes less proud - and then making a point of going out and trying to send before his hammer has its way? Hell yeah I do.)
So Matt, the short of it from my perspective is that a bolt kit is brought in case of an emergency. If you did The Trip before it was re-bolted you'd understand exactly why a kit is needed. Those old aluminum dowels use to fail on a regular basis. Your not suggesting that when a bolt/dowel/rivit/z-mac fails you are to go down never to do the route again, are you? What other choice would you have? Bring a cheater stick?
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Dec 11, 2004 - 12:48pm PT
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Piling on like bolt cops is encouraged at times like this. Sackless wonders like to work in secret.
Carrying a kit and resisting its use are both prudent. And as Matt says, if you've done naughty, clean it up. I believe Ammon will concur. Ha!
I will say this: the most exhilirating wall I've done was an older, harder route through the overhanging diorite, solo, without a cheat stick or bolt kit. On purpose. I was gripped, man. Probably as close as you can get to an FA.
No shame in getting your ass kicked.
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 11, 2004 - 01:31pm PT
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Yo, NeverSleep.......dude, WTF is your deal? You and I have had some disagreements sure, but when it comes down to it, you and I probably aren't much different. What are you holding onto?
And Cracko, sure man, you don't need the "The".
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mark
climber
yosemite
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Dec 11, 2004 - 02:01pm PT
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Its not a matter of being "police", its a matter of following a route in the manner in which it was est.
A few of you talk about sticking to the "gumby" routes. What if someone added bolts to those. Its B.S. "gumby" route or not, you either have the sack or not. Come back when you do. Or like someone said...climb with a solid partner to take the hard sh#t.
I made some troll about bolting the BY and people threatened to kill me. But its accecpted on the ZOD to add crap.
LIA was notorious for the .10+r section.
Its not suprising that Pediphile is not responding to Ammon.
For someone to bring a "kit" to ensure their success is what Pediphile does. Im pretty sure he did the same thing to Scorched Earth. He already added bolts to Native Son.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 11, 2004 - 03:15pm PT
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RE: Skull Queen
I can verify Mikeīs claim of the chicken rivet on Skull Queen. I forget the pitch but itīs the short squeeze section. Iīll admit I clipped it just cause it was there, but I didnīt feel good about it.
If you plan to chop it, itīs one of those big ass half inch rivets, so bring sturdy gear and maybe a crowbar.
BTW- All the rivets on Skull Queen were replaced with the big ones with new holes and the old ones were just bashed in with a hammer. Lame.
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 11, 2004 - 03:29pm PT
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There is a point that was made earlier that needs to be emphasized. It is good practice to carry bolt kits on aid routes for many obvious reasons. But the very notion of bolting for upward progress is not one of them and that is the issue I see here. Any belay bolts that are jingus should be replaced when noticed and subsequent parties will be thankful for the work. Laying in a line of chix rivets to avoid a** puckering scary free climbing isn't a valid reason and shouldn't be done. If you are that gripped, it isn't for you and a) back off, or b) climb like you have a sack. I personally know that pete has drilled on most of his ascents. Someone wanted a tick list of what he hasn't done, which would be good to know. But I am curious of all the routes that he has completed without placing a bolt or enhancing his placements. I am sure that list is very small...
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Dec 11, 2004 - 04:45pm PT
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You guys are all out of my league so maybe I have no right to comment (although I will say I've never placed a bolt) but I kind of find the whole self righteous stuff to be ridiculously hypocritical. If you love the rock don't bolt and don't nail. Period. Why is it OK for FA to do whatever sh#t they think they need to but then others can't. The fact is every single FA f*#ked up the rock to some degree. Why not just leave it until some young kid with more "sack" can do it clean. Or leave it undone. The climbing community seems to be making a fetish of the first ascent standard as if that's the holy grail. To my mind its either all just a game, which means men make their own rules and break them if they like, or its sacred turf which means anyone who messes with it is going to hell. Can't we make up our minds.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Dec 11, 2004 - 05:45pm PT
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take your relativist crap and STFU, at least figuratively speaking. The FA standard is what needs to be adhered too, not the type of crap you're promoting. It's not about you, it's about the method which the route was done. Without community standards then you have a huge cluster f*#k of competeing egos and ball-less escapades where you find you're courage in your gym bag, oops ruck sack. The term sack-up didn't come from no-where. It means if you can't follow it in the manner the FAist put it up as, then bail, go somewhere else, come back another day when you don't have to resort to debauching routes simply because you lack the personal tools needed to overcome the problem
cheers
hope this helps
Pat
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mark
climber
yosemite
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Dec 11, 2004 - 05:56pm PT
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well said Pat.
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 11, 2004 - 06:03pm PT
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Cant say, well said......Climbers have no governing body other than ourselves. People like to say that this is hypocritical and self rightous. Not so. We must honor the FA's and the manner to which routes are established so they may remain that way. However, routes do change over time, nothing can be done about that. If climbers can't reach a common agreement with what we do, then all climbing areas will go to sh#t in no time. Respect the FA and respect the route. Its that simple.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Dec 11, 2004 - 06:48pm PT
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"take your relativist crap and STFU"
wow, angry guy there.
I think you missed my real angle. If you want to make rules I say climb it clean or leave it alone. Is that too high a standard for you?
Nailing and riviting up some A5 route FA or not is all about ego. Even if you are only patting yourself on the back. And twenty years from now some young kid will come along who can free the route. Didn't you just ruin it up for him? Leave it to those who can do it and come back another day. That I agree with.
Peace
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 11, 2004 - 07:40pm PT
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Lost in America would never EVER have been put up free. I say that having climbed only the first two pitches. You've no idea about the type of rock/climbing to which you make your comments.
And in case you didn't notice, the issue here is a FREE pitch that have had bolts added. Whatcha gonna do after your 5.19d hardman puts up the free route with no bolts only to have some gumbie come along later and drill it so he can climb it? See ya back here in 20 years, pal.
what pat said.
oh wait.. i get what mike is saying. We shouldn't be aid climbing. Someone run out and give robbins a smack across the lips for pioneering aid climbs on el cap, and while you are at it, though may he rest in peace, Harding needs a good poke in the eye for his part in not saving "those climbs" for the guy with the gym bag.
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Dec 11, 2004 - 07:48pm PT
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to PASS THE RIVET PETE. is that how you get up this shit!? i once stuck up for you in one of these threads but now i think your a complete fag!! why dont you go and tack your way Nightmare On California Street and claim that ascent!
Or go haul 1000 lbs of gear up up the royal arches route? It goes at like 5.5 A0 thats more down to your level. You can hang out at the base for weeks there too......with the same kind of climbing ignorant losers such as yourself . cant wait to see your gay little crab portal ledge hanging on the middle of the traverse across the ledge after the pendulum since knowing you youll proballyh put a chicken belay there too.
T.C. ( who hates pete)
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 11, 2004 - 07:56pm PT
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oh no...
i think
i've been
trolled....
rockermike can't be for real.
tis the season to be trolly, troll-la-lo-la-lo-la-troll-lo-lo
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Dec 11, 2004 - 08:13pm PT
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Pete needs to sound in, yay or nay.
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Rockcandy
Ice climber
Santa Clarita, CA
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Dec 11, 2004 - 10:17pm PT
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SuperTopo Climbers Forum
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Anyone selling patch kits in the Valley? Jul 2, 2004 -- 02:30pm
Author:
bspisak
climber
From: The subject says it all. I need some, but don't wanna pay the $2-3 the mountain shop wants. I see 'em for sale at camp 4 for $1 sometimes. Anyone??
Re: Anyone selling patch kits in the Valley? Jul 2, 2004 -- 10:46pm
Author:
PTPP
climber
From: I have been known to sell patch kits, fire wood, cheat stix & porn at blowout prices. Just check out the ankle breaker's testimonial below:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=37309#msg37522
email me with what you need and we'll strike a deal. i generally accept cashiers checks and will ship your order the same day (US only).
cheers,
Re: Anyone selling patch kits in the Valley? Jul 5, 2004 -- 08:38pm
Author:
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
From: like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh? Indeed!
My patch kits are Emphatically The Sh#t, and come highly recommended by Dr. Piton.
If I used anyone else's patch kits, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.....
"Concrete in a Tube"
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Anyone selling heads/hangers in the Valley? Jul 2, 2004 -- 02:30pm
Author:
bspisak
climber
From: The subject says it all. I need some, but don't wanna pay the $2-3 the mountain shop wants. I see 'em for sale at camp 4 for $1 sometimes. Anyone??
Re: Anyone selling patch kits in the Valley? Jul 2, 2004 -- 10:46pm
Author:
klaus
climber
From: I have been known to patch kits, etc. at blowout prices. Just check out the ankle breaker's testimonial below:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=37309#msg37522
email me with what you need and we'll strike a deal. i generally accept cashiers checks and will ship your order the same day (US only).
cheers, climber
Re: Anyone selling heads/hangers in the Valley? Jul 5, 2004 -- 08:38pm
Author:
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
From: like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh? Indeed!
My kits are Emphatically The Sh#t, and come highly recommended by Dr. Piton.
If I used anyone else's kits, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.....
"Concrete in a Tube"
Repair of classic FA's..no need to step out of those comfy aiders! They'll never know what a puss you really are w/ our included "camo kit". "Leave no trace", "Lead like a real hard man", & "Super scetchy runout horrorfest" are our phrases. They'll be none the wiser. No more sand in YOUR face. Spend hours spray'in on the net, C4, & the deck!
Cures to granite color and texture. Comes in gray circle gray, sunkist orange, diorite, & others or mix & match!
Other Epoxy Products
SuperSeal Epoxies
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Dec 11, 2004 - 10:41pm PT
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If it is a troll, then I got sucked in like everyone else. But I also think it's exactly the kind of observations you read over at rc.com and it's also easy to believe that cross-polinations will occur. But it's something that needs to be sprayed as much as possible these days. Because his rationale is the same as many who think it's a good idea to make every route safe for everyone.
And yeah, I get a bit pissed when people want to further homogenize climbing.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 12, 2004 - 09:51am PT
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actually, i'm thinking less of a troll and more of cross-pollination. His arguement sucked too bad to be a real troll.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2004 - 10:45am PT
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I don't think his argument sucked at all. It's just not the way aid climbing culture has evolved and nobody has concocted a better way to preserve the stone and the adventure without having to give up making the first ascents sooner than later.
After all, in free climbing, it's not acceptable to alter the stone to make an ascent before it's time. Jardine has received endless slander for chipping some holds on the Nose, and he did it while FAing a variation.
How many fewer bolts would the WEML have if Harding waited until heads were invented before he climbed it? How pristine would so many El Cap cracks have remained forever if they hadn't been climbed until Cam Hooks, Offsets and Aliens were invented?
Someday, we might have replacements for all hammered pro. It would be arrogant to assume that it will never happen.
But naturally, El Cap is too tempting a plum not to pluck. As a result, the stone, which lasts for thousands of years of future human climbing (if we don't kill each other or spoil our environment first) is radically and permanently scarred because we didn't save it until we had better tools. Just think if somehow we had waited to climb some of the great lines until it was possible to do it way cleaner. Future climbers would all have the chance to "enjoy" the same stone and same challenges as the first ascent party.
That's history, now how do we live with it? Personally I'm more into respecting the stone than respecting the first ascent party, but respecting the first ascent party is the tradition and the practical result is nearly the same.
But it's far from an ideal system. We just don't have a better one. It's a shame that the fantastic Shield headwall is beaten to hell, when it didn't have to be that way. That's history now, but it's still more acceptable than ever to do a new El Cap route with over a hundred holes and beating your way up the rest of the way with heads and enhanced hooks and chiseled heads. It's good adventure anyway.
So I don't think our current aid climbing ethics are anything to get holier than thou about, but I do agree we should band together and keep the ethic from getting even worse.
peace
Karl
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