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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 9, 2004 - 11:33pm PT
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I climbed this fine route for the second time this season.
One thing that really bothered me is the rivets that "someone" installed on the 5.10r pitch, getting up to the "Bay of Pigs". There was also some chicken rivets near some of the expanding flakes a little higher on the route.
Now, I know exactly "who" installed these but that's not the reason for this post. In fact, I've been emailing "that" person and it seems they quit the conversation as soon as it got uncomfortable for "him".
So, any of you who are thinking of doing the route this/next year should bring a patch kit. I would love to see the pitch turn back into the run-out, factor2-fest, gripping pitch that I remember it being.
BTW- It's not really hard to figure out who soloed the route in the last few years..... this person would have NEVER been able to free it...... let alone rope-solo-free it. I'm wondering what he was even thinking by going up there.... knowing he can't climb out of his aiders.
Yeah, yeah.... I know.... lot's of pitches on the route has had chicken rivets/bolts added. But, this is one of the pitches that makes the route so badass!!
Cheers, Ammon
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Rockcandy
Ice climber
Santa Clarita, CA
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By chance, would this same person claim to have "retired from free climbing"?
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Dec 10, 2004 - 12:04am PT
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Oh man, just when all the PtPP hate threads disappeared
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 10, 2004 - 11:22am PT
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I think NeverSurfed is finally starting to catch on........What Ammon wrote about the placements of the chix bolts has pete's dirty laundry written all over it.
Eli
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Dec 10, 2004 - 01:47pm PT
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sad... a completely sackless act. Anyone ever hear the responsible person spray about having "climbed" the route? Write a TR and omit this info?
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Dec 10, 2004 - 02:07pm PT
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I recall coming nose-to-nose with a hole in some 5.9 squeezer on the Salathe, somewhere in the middle below the Ear, that I was managing just fine in my Boulders. should we start a list?
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 10, 2004 - 02:23pm PT
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You know what list I need... I need a list of the routes pee-on-pete has not gone and brought down to his level up. I guess I better figure out what routes on my ticklist need to be done (in short order) before he gets to them to piss all over them.
EDIT: I've modified the above post to 1) not directly trash pete 2) remove the route I plan on doing (just in case pee-boy happens to read).
I hate the thought of going through his ego-feeding trip reports to make my list. Anyone know if he's done the route I'm interested in (now deleted)?
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thebleeder
Trad climber
chosstown
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Dec 10, 2004 - 02:23pm PT
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it's really lame when you consider that there's a 5.8(?) light duty variation to the right of the scary 5.10 pitch that i know several people have used.
i wonder if he left his brushstrokes on jolly roger?
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Dec 10, 2004 - 03:09pm PT
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See, that's WTF I'm what I'm talking about. It turns my stomach to see his drivel talking about this route. This quote from Pisshead Pete in his rc.n00b route description is a prime example:
"Bring free climbing shoes for the crumbling 5.10 run out - Ammon and I agree it felt like 5.11x to us! Your wrists will be aching from all the nailing you'll do by the time you summit..."
Maybe your wrists were aching from drilling shithead.
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 10, 2004 - 03:26pm PT
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Not to start another thread on pete, but this is just another example of how pete's 'better way' is a selfish f*cked up way of doing ascents. He alone has a tremendously high impact on El Cap. Especially when he goes off and defaces the rock for no apparent reason. I mean seriously, how many more lines is he going to f*ck up? Still would like to hear of his own account of what happened up on The Muir.........
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Dec 10, 2004 - 03:46pm PT
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If I badmouth Pete can I be a Yosemite Rock Policemen too?? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t agree with the style in which he supposedly climbs, but I am endlessly entertained by the continued righteous indignation of the self-appointed protectors of Yosemite. As for me, I will continue to pursue “gumby” routes well within my abilities, and use ST Forum for pure entertainmenmt.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Dec 10, 2004 - 03:48pm PT
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Well said Cracko. That's sort of what was going through my mind. See ya on the gumby routes.
In defense of Ammon and Mike though...I think their intent was more to simply encourage someone to bring a patch kit on a future ascent than just flame Pete who may or may not be the responsible party.
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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Dec 10, 2004 - 03:50pm PT
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holy shit! someone with perspective. Cracko, you're done. You'll have to leave now.
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2004 - 04:02pm PT
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not that i ever plan to be one of them, but w/out the "self-appointed protectors of Yosemite", we would be left w/ exactly what?
at least it ain't the mythical boulder canyon bolt wars, right?
seems like if you were aiding up a route and had to add something that you knew you ought not to add, you could just rap back down and clean it up, then jug and be on your way, so why wouldn't someone (someone who bothered to bring rivets on an established route in the 1st place) do that sort of thing?
i have never placed or chopped anything and have no plans to start, but wouldn't it be easier to pull it out than to stick it in there in the 1st place? just curious.
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 10, 2004 - 04:20pm PT
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Cracko,
It isn't about being wall police. It is a question of ethics and practices which is overly destrucitve to the rock. As climbers, we know the importance of keeping the integrity of the route as close to the natural state as possible so all can share a similar experience. Aid climbing is an exception though given the nailing defaces the rock. But when a section can go clean, has gone clean, should stay clean. Putting in a line of chix bolts because you are scared when it has gone clean is should not be tolerated.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Dec 10, 2004 - 05:19pm PT
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Maestro,
I agree with you 100 %, and practice this ethic in my own climbing. I guess it comes down to what you mean by tolerate. Because once the damage is done, its already been tolerated! Then we’re left trying to figure out how to “fix” it while hopefully adhering to our own “No Destruction to the Rock” ethic. And then I’m still not completely convinced that a first ascentionist has the absolute right to determine the nature of a route for all future parties. I can tell you that on the few walls I have done in Yosemite, I have been very thankful for the work done by ASCA. And, if I do encounter “chix” bolts on a climb, I always have the choice of using them or not using them, along with all the other fixed crap. And as for Pete, I think a different approach might be more effective, like walking your own talk and stop the “comical” but ineffective “piling on”! Hey, can I just call you Maestro, or do I have to call you The Maestro? That Seinfeld episode is playing in my head and if I have to call you The Maestro I’m gonna get right back into my self-righteous rant!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 10, 2004 - 07:03pm PT
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I think it's Ok to question anybody's tactics that affect the stone. Certainly, some of the stuff Pete's done is open to discussion. (like bringing firewood and having a campfire in the alcove below El Cap spire.)
There is another aspect to Pete flaming that goes over the top. I call it "Squirrel Rage."
"Squirrel Rage is a Yosemite tradition. It goes like this, Nobody is supposed to feed the Squirrels in the park, everybody knows some of the reasons. Many of the folks living in the park have repressed anger looking for an outlet. So when some locals see a tourist feeding a squirrel, it's not unheard of for them to lay into them like they were axe-murdering senior citizens.
Moral: when somebody or something has become a socially acceptable target of attack, then folks with excess negativity take turns unloading.
I'm not saying some Pete flames weren't warranted, but different folks have different motives. Some folks have personal issues, and for others, it's just about some guy they're reading about on the net.
Chicken Rivets do sound like a fried mini-nugget from CrackDonalds.
Peace
karl
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Dec 10, 2004 - 08:10pm PT
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Is that you "The"? I didn't recognize you since you've extracted you cranium from your colon.
(That's just my way of saying for that the first, and probably last, time I agree with you.)
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Burt
climber
Sin City
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Dec 11, 2004 - 01:08am PT
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"seems like if you were aiding up a route and had to add something that you knew you ought not to add, you could just rap back down and clean it up, then jug and be on your way, so why wouldn't someone (someone who bothered to bring rivets on an established route in the 1st place) do that sort of thing? "
This kinda bugged me. If we start drilling chicken bolts on lead then just rap down a chop them, man we are opening a can of worms that may never close again. Anybody who has lead hard aid, or hard scary free has wanted to drill (unless you are superman like Mr. McNeely Ha! love ya bro! How's Austin?) But being able to master the ability to push on when the climbing is bleak is an art that takes time. So if you need to take a drill leave in the very bottom of the haulbag, make sure it is a mother fer to get out, like ten freakin minutes so you have to really think about what you are about to do. There is no shame in bailing and coming back when you get the experience.
Burt
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2004 - 02:01am PT
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with respect, that wasn't the spirit i'd intended it with, i just meant that if it has to happen (according to someone, and for some reason of that someone alone), at least they might make the effort to clean up after themselves.
in other cases i have heard of parties retreating to ask the permisssion of the FA party to drill.
honestly, i am not clear why it's ok to haul a bolt kit at all!
if the ethic were more straight forward and it were no shame to bail, wouldn't that be a no-no in the first place?
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Dec 11, 2004 - 11:02am PT
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I believe the intentions of most climbers bringing a bolt kit on established routes, is in case something goes terribly wrong or some act of god (like rock fall) phucks up established bolts or anchors. I had a situation once on Lunar Eclips. First I took a good 40 footer upside down by pulling some rurps on the Devils Brow, althuogh I was now shaking in my boots I recoverd from this and kept on leading. I then got off route later in the pitch by not finding the crack that leads up out of the traverse. I kept climbing straight out of the traverse into no mans land. I got to a point were I was once again shaking in my boots. I called for the kit and drilled. Knowing I was not on Lunar anymore I felt no remorse other than just being stupid about not finding the way. My partner ended up finishing the pitch for me the next day. We just need to know when to use this tool and not. That sucks there are rivits in the chimney on Skull Queen, even though it is only 5.8 it was a real challange for me. And for the runout (now the not so runout) pitch on Lost in America I just brought a rope gun for that pitch it worked out really well. Lost in America needs to be repaired.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 11, 2004 - 11:26am PT
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I'll change my tone.
Tom - I brought bolt kit with me on Lunar (and every big wall). Bolt/rivits fail, belays often need an new one,etc. It's a must have.
My observation is that Pete brings his kit to ensure he can do the route. That, in my humble opinion, is very wrong from an ethical point of view. Anyone else agree?
In our case, on Lunar, we knew we'd probably need it. A huge chunk fell off the thing. I drilled about four rivits to the "new" section on the climb. I've no problem with this. My attitude was simple. The pitch (section) had gone before at A2 so when I hit the rating I started drilling. I recall hand placed beaks at first then tried some stacked blades pounded straight up once the traverse (where the rivits are) started. Those blades never held a jump test. I felt I had no choice but to add the rivits. I think I tried circleheads pounded straight up as well. No go their either. It was eithe rivits or bathooks. I'm of the opinion that if you are drilling a hole, fill the fricking thing.
Now, Keeping the four letter words out of this. I'm damn serious about figuring out what routes on my tick list Pete has not done. I really do want to get them before he brings them down to his level. (is this fair? Do I have a "right" to recognize and notice that he drills the crap out of every route he's done - making routes less proud - and then making a point of going out and trying to send before his hammer has its way? Hell yeah I do.)
So Matt, the short of it from my perspective is that a bolt kit is brought in case of an emergency. If you did The Trip before it was re-bolted you'd understand exactly why a kit is needed. Those old aluminum dowels use to fail on a regular basis. Your not suggesting that when a bolt/dowel/rivit/z-mac fails you are to go down never to do the route again, are you? What other choice would you have? Bring a cheater stick?
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Dec 11, 2004 - 12:48pm PT
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Piling on like bolt cops is encouraged at times like this. Sackless wonders like to work in secret.
Carrying a kit and resisting its use are both prudent. And as Matt says, if you've done naughty, clean it up. I believe Ammon will concur. Ha!
I will say this: the most exhilirating wall I've done was an older, harder route through the overhanging diorite, solo, without a cheat stick or bolt kit. On purpose. I was gripped, man. Probably as close as you can get to an FA.
No shame in getting your ass kicked.
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 11, 2004 - 01:31pm PT
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Yo, NeverSleep.......dude, WTF is your deal? You and I have had some disagreements sure, but when it comes down to it, you and I probably aren't much different. What are you holding onto?
And Cracko, sure man, you don't need the "The".
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mark
climber
yosemite
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Dec 11, 2004 - 02:01pm PT
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Its not a matter of being "police", its a matter of following a route in the manner in which it was est.
A few of you talk about sticking to the "gumby" routes. What if someone added bolts to those. Its B.S. "gumby" route or not, you either have the sack or not. Come back when you do. Or like someone said...climb with a solid partner to take the hard sh#t.
I made some troll about bolting the BY and people threatened to kill me. But its accecpted on the ZOD to add crap.
LIA was notorious for the .10+r section.
Its not suprising that Pediphile is not responding to Ammon.
For someone to bring a "kit" to ensure their success is what Pediphile does. Im pretty sure he did the same thing to Scorched Earth. He already added bolts to Native Son.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 11, 2004 - 03:15pm PT
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RE: Skull Queen
I can verify Mike´s claim of the chicken rivet on Skull Queen. I forget the pitch but it´s the short squeeze section. I´ll admit I clipped it just cause it was there, but I didn´t feel good about it.
If you plan to chop it, it´s one of those big ass half inch rivets, so bring sturdy gear and maybe a crowbar.
BTW- All the rivets on Skull Queen were replaced with the big ones with new holes and the old ones were just bashed in with a hammer. Lame.
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 11, 2004 - 03:29pm PT
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There is a point that was made earlier that needs to be emphasized. It is good practice to carry bolt kits on aid routes for many obvious reasons. But the very notion of bolting for upward progress is not one of them and that is the issue I see here. Any belay bolts that are jingus should be replaced when noticed and subsequent parties will be thankful for the work. Laying in a line of chix rivets to avoid a** puckering scary free climbing isn't a valid reason and shouldn't be done. If you are that gripped, it isn't for you and a) back off, or b) climb like you have a sack. I personally know that pete has drilled on most of his ascents. Someone wanted a tick list of what he hasn't done, which would be good to know. But I am curious of all the routes that he has completed without placing a bolt or enhancing his placements. I am sure that list is very small...
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Dec 11, 2004 - 04:45pm PT
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You guys are all out of my league so maybe I have no right to comment (although I will say I've never placed a bolt) but I kind of find the whole self righteous stuff to be ridiculously hypocritical. If you love the rock don't bolt and don't nail. Period. Why is it OK for FA to do whatever sh#t they think they need to but then others can't. The fact is every single FA f*#ked up the rock to some degree. Why not just leave it until some young kid with more "sack" can do it clean. Or leave it undone. The climbing community seems to be making a fetish of the first ascent standard as if that's the holy grail. To my mind its either all just a game, which means men make their own rules and break them if they like, or its sacred turf which means anyone who messes with it is going to hell. Can't we make up our minds.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Dec 11, 2004 - 05:45pm PT
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take your relativist crap and STFU, at least figuratively speaking. The FA standard is what needs to be adhered too, not the type of crap you're promoting. It's not about you, it's about the method which the route was done. Without community standards then you have a huge cluster f*#k of competeing egos and ball-less escapades where you find you're courage in your gym bag, oops ruck sack. The term sack-up didn't come from no-where. It means if you can't follow it in the manner the FAist put it up as, then bail, go somewhere else, come back another day when you don't have to resort to debauching routes simply because you lack the personal tools needed to overcome the problem
cheers
hope this helps
Pat
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mark
climber
yosemite
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Dec 11, 2004 - 05:56pm PT
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well said Pat.
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 11, 2004 - 06:03pm PT
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Cant say, well said......Climbers have no governing body other than ourselves. People like to say that this is hypocritical and self rightous. Not so. We must honor the FA's and the manner to which routes are established so they may remain that way. However, routes do change over time, nothing can be done about that. If climbers can't reach a common agreement with what we do, then all climbing areas will go to sh#t in no time. Respect the FA and respect the route. Its that simple.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Dec 11, 2004 - 06:48pm PT
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"take your relativist crap and STFU"
wow, angry guy there.
I think you missed my real angle. If you want to make rules I say climb it clean or leave it alone. Is that too high a standard for you?
Nailing and riviting up some A5 route FA or not is all about ego. Even if you are only patting yourself on the back. And twenty years from now some young kid will come along who can free the route. Didn't you just ruin it up for him? Leave it to those who can do it and come back another day. That I agree with.
Peace
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 11, 2004 - 07:40pm PT
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Lost in America would never EVER have been put up free. I say that having climbed only the first two pitches. You've no idea about the type of rock/climbing to which you make your comments.
And in case you didn't notice, the issue here is a FREE pitch that have had bolts added. Whatcha gonna do after your 5.19d hardman puts up the free route with no bolts only to have some gumbie come along later and drill it so he can climb it? See ya back here in 20 years, pal.
what pat said.
oh wait.. i get what mike is saying. We shouldn't be aid climbing. Someone run out and give robbins a smack across the lips for pioneering aid climbs on el cap, and while you are at it, though may he rest in peace, Harding needs a good poke in the eye for his part in not saving "those climbs" for the guy with the gym bag.
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Dec 11, 2004 - 07:48pm PT
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to PASS THE RIVET PETE. is that how you get up this shit!? i once stuck up for you in one of these threads but now i think your a complete fag!! why dont you go and tack your way Nightmare On California Street and claim that ascent!
Or go haul 1000 lbs of gear up up the royal arches route? It goes at like 5.5 A0 thats more down to your level. You can hang out at the base for weeks there too......with the same kind of climbing ignorant losers such as yourself . cant wait to see your gay little crab portal ledge hanging on the middle of the traverse across the ledge after the pendulum since knowing you youll proballyh put a chicken belay there too.
T.C. ( who hates pete)
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 11, 2004 - 07:56pm PT
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oh no...
i think
i've been
trolled....
rockermike can't be for real.
tis the season to be trolly, troll-la-lo-la-lo-la-troll-lo-lo
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Dec 11, 2004 - 08:13pm PT
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Pete needs to sound in, yay or nay.
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Rockcandy
Ice climber
Santa Clarita, CA
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Dec 11, 2004 - 10:17pm PT
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SuperTopo Climber’s Forum
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone selling patch kits in the Valley? Jul 2, 2004 -- 02:30pm
Author:
bspisak
climber
From: The subject says it all. I need some, but don't wanna pay the $2-3 the mountain shop wants. I see 'em for sale at camp 4 for $1 sometimes. Anyone??
Re: Anyone selling patch kits in the Valley? Jul 2, 2004 -- 10:46pm
Author:
PTPP
climber
From: I have been known to sell patch kits, fire wood, cheat stix & porn at blowout prices. Just check out the ankle breaker's testimonial below:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=37309#msg37522
email me with what you need and we'll strike a deal. i generally accept cashiers checks and will ship your order the same day (US only).
cheers,
Re: Anyone selling patch kits in the Valley? Jul 5, 2004 -- 08:38pm
Author:
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
From: like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh? Indeed!
My patch kits are Emphatically The Sh#t, and come highly recommended by Dr. Piton.
If I used anyone else's patch kits, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.....
"Concrete in a Tube"
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyone selling heads/hangers in the Valley? Jul 2, 2004 -- 02:30pm
Author:
bspisak
climber
From: The subject says it all. I need some, but don't wanna pay the $2-3 the mountain shop wants. I see 'em for sale at camp 4 for $1 sometimes. Anyone??
Re: Anyone selling patch kits in the Valley? Jul 2, 2004 -- 10:46pm
Author:
klaus
climber
From: I have been known to patch kits, etc. at blowout prices. Just check out the ankle breaker's testimonial below:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=37309#msg37522
email me with what you need and we'll strike a deal. i generally accept cashiers checks and will ship your order the same day (US only).
cheers, climber
Re: Anyone selling heads/hangers in the Valley? Jul 5, 2004 -- 08:38pm
Author:
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
From: like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh? Indeed!
My kits are Emphatically The Sh#t, and come highly recommended by Dr. Piton.
If I used anyone else's kits, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on.....
"Concrete in a Tube"
Repair of classic FA's..no need to step out of those comfy aiders! They'll never know what a puss you really are w/ our included "camo kit". "Leave no trace", "Lead like a real hard man", & "Super scetchy runout horrorfest" are our phrases. They'll be none the wiser. No more sand in YOUR face. Spend hours spray'in on the net, C4, & the deck!
Cures to granite color and texture. Comes in gray circle gray, sunkist orange, diorite, & others or mix & match!
Other Epoxy Products
SuperSeal™ Epoxies
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Dec 11, 2004 - 10:41pm PT
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If it is a troll, then I got sucked in like everyone else. But I also think it's exactly the kind of observations you read over at rc.com and it's also easy to believe that cross-polinations will occur. But it's something that needs to be sprayed as much as possible these days. Because his rationale is the same as many who think it's a good idea to make every route safe for everyone.
And yeah, I get a bit pissed when people want to further homogenize climbing.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 12, 2004 - 09:51am PT
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actually, i'm thinking less of a troll and more of cross-pollination. His arguement sucked too bad to be a real troll.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 12, 2004 - 10:45am PT
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I don't think his argument sucked at all. It's just not the way aid climbing culture has evolved and nobody has concocted a better way to preserve the stone and the adventure without having to give up making the first ascents sooner than later.
After all, in free climbing, it's not acceptable to alter the stone to make an ascent before it's time. Jardine has received endless slander for chipping some holds on the Nose, and he did it while FAing a variation.
How many fewer bolts would the WEML have if Harding waited until heads were invented before he climbed it? How pristine would so many El Cap cracks have remained forever if they hadn't been climbed until Cam Hooks, Offsets and Aliens were invented?
Someday, we might have replacements for all hammered pro. It would be arrogant to assume that it will never happen.
But naturally, El Cap is too tempting a plum not to pluck. As a result, the stone, which lasts for thousands of years of future human climbing (if we don't kill each other or spoil our environment first) is radically and permanently scarred because we didn't save it until we had better tools. Just think if somehow we had waited to climb some of the great lines until it was possible to do it way cleaner. Future climbers would all have the chance to "enjoy" the same stone and same challenges as the first ascent party.
That's history, now how do we live with it? Personally I'm more into respecting the stone than respecting the first ascent party, but respecting the first ascent party is the tradition and the practical result is nearly the same.
But it's far from an ideal system. We just don't have a better one. It's a shame that the fantastic Shield headwall is beaten to hell, when it didn't have to be that way. That's history now, but it's still more acceptable than ever to do a new El Cap route with over a hundred holes and beating your way up the rest of the way with heads and enhanced hooks and chiseled heads. It's good adventure anyway.
So I don't think our current aid climbing ethics are anything to get holier than thou about, but I do agree we should band together and keep the ethic from getting even worse.
peace
Karl
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bestbefore
climber
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Dec 12, 2004 - 11:36am PT
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If I might ask a quick practical question, how exactly was the crime in question (the Chicken McRivets on LIA) actually committed? I know nothing about the pitch is question, but I do know how hard it is to drill in the middle of a free lead. Do the chicken bolts start up straight off the belay? Are there hook placements from which to hang? Or is there some Better Way of drilling an 5.10 r/x pitch?
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 12, 2004 - 01:27pm PT
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DMT, nice flame dude, and for your sake, I hope it was just that. You sound somewhat intelligent and should understand the obvious meaning behind my statement.
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TheMaestro
Big Wall climber
Yosemite
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Dec 12, 2004 - 02:14pm PT
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One more note Karl, offset aliens, HB offsets, and all other pro like that was designed to protect existing or blown pin scars which I am sure you are well aware of. Nailing did occur on the FA's of El CAp and yes, some routes like The shield are blown to sh*t. We can't go back and fix it and don't think we should if we could. Examples like that should be kept around for climbers to see so we can develope a higher ethical standard to not repeate the destruction. For the record, I am not anti nailing. There are times it just has to be done. But modifying placements, nailing on free sections, and nailing for upward progress is ludicrous.
What pete did on LIA is just beyond me and I wonder how he can keep showing his face around the valley when he not only condones such practices he claims it as his 'Better Way'. A better way to f*ck it up for us all more like.
If we don't take ownership of our actions and realize that we do have an impact on the routes we climb, all routes are going to be destroyed eventually.
Remember when two germans were nailing up on Spaceshot back in '98. Those morons f*cking destroyed part of the lower pitches because they thought it was ok for the ascent. Hmmm.....C2 definately means bringing a hammer and a pin rack in german I guess.
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ground_up
Trad climber
portland, or.
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Dec 13, 2004 - 12:45am PT
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You don't know what'ya got till it's gone....
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Loom
climber
the bathroom
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Dec 13, 2004 - 01:24am PT
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Pete is that you?
In the past half hour someone has bumped and deleted their posts on 13 threads to move them up above this one.
(edit)
Maybe someone is trying to re-bury the old "anti-war crowd . . ." threads, but those were brought back up in the same cowardly way. If you want to dredge up an oldie you should leave a post, and if you're into censoring threads or altering routes you should have your knuckles broken.
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Loom
climber
the bathroom
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Dec 13, 2004 - 01:46am PT
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bump
hey, chickensh;t, speak up; quit anonymously bumping the threads as$h0le.
bump again
(edit) I've got better things to do with my time cockroach.
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Kevin
Social climber
Oak-town
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Dec 13, 2004 - 10:55pm PT
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how close are them bolts on LA now any-hoo
can I aid the pitch now?
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ground_up
Trad climber
portland, or.
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Dec 13, 2004 - 11:25pm PT
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talking to me?....hell no i ain't P....R U kiddin me?
check my pro...bro
I was sayin...ya don't know what ya got...
Like anyone else who has climbed El Cap, and felt purdy damn honored to top out...(I've only done two routes) I'm surprised any of you locals would let his sorry ass on the wall...if people who lack the sack to do a route start pulling that crap...seems it pretty much screws the rest of us who respect the big stone. no, i ain't pete
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 14, 2004 - 12:37am PT
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The Chicken Rivets Erik Sloan placed on Skull Queen and other routes piss me off just as much as Petes. Mostly because they are trade routes that I can actually climb. whats the point of a Chicken Rivets on easy climbing?
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2004 - 01:02am PT
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the sad truth is that the pete-slander has become both the most entertaining and the most informative reading on ST...
yawn
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bigwalling
climber
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Dec 14, 2004 - 01:12am PT
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Erik, is a mad bolter that is out of control. He has done some good but lots of bad! It makes me sick! Adding bolts makes is so wrong, it shows no respect of those who have gone before you. I'm up for replacing the F.A. anchor bolts and really bad rivets, but not this 3/8 bolt ladders, that is wrong. I was happy that the route I did this summer still had some normal rivets on it. I hate clipping big bolts on an aid pitch. It's like sport aiding.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 14, 2004 - 01:42am PT
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well then don't do Skull Queen.
I have to say that I liked it more then the South Face or the Prow though, better top out.
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rrrADAM
climber
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Dec 20, 2004 - 01:47pm PT
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Just curious... Was the rivet used when Pete screwed up and broke his foot while practicing his "better way" placed by him ??? If so, then how ironic, EH ???
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 20, 2004 - 03:22pm PT
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hmm... thread just got bumped.
Adam, no the rivits are not responsible (via karma) for his broken ankle. But then, what's the diff? When your karma sucks.... it sucks.
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bulgingpuke
Trad climber
cayucos california
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Dec 20, 2004 - 07:55pm PT
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Sorry to f*#k with this accusing thread that "I" myself participated in but I have gotten Peter's side of the story and he said that the rivets were already there. And i researched into this and yes the rivets were new....but i sh#t you not i am very convinced that it was a german party of three that i saw bailing off up there early May 2003. We saw them as they were Rapping off of pitch 6 just above "The Bay of The Pigs" . Now im not hundred percent sure, they could of chose the 5.8R variation.
There are two reasons why this makes much more sense.
The first is ive seen a group of Koreans put extra bolts up on Dinner ledge to rack gear on. I saw a huge group of Danish guys pound pins in on the prow. Those Korean guys nailed the entire route of SpaceShot in Zion back in '98. So i think it is a much higher possibilty that the other team drilled not Pete.
The second is why would you spend hours and energy putting up a ladder of rivets when you can make two 5.8 moves to easy 5.7 and be to the belay in 35 mins? I think pete has the common sense to know that. Plus his story sounds pretty accurate to me.
ty
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Dec 20, 2004 - 08:01pm PT
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the canadian assassin doesn't step out of his aiders.
oh, and excuse me while I note that though the CA has posted just today on this site no mention was given to these rivits. If they ain't his it ain't hard to simply say "nope, fux you guys, not mine". But the bottom line is if they are his it would be one in a series of routes he rivited down to his level. History repeats itself, they say....
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 20, 2004 - 09:12pm PT
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give it up already...jeeze
if you read Chads TR about WSR he says he climbed up to that rivet himself before Pete arived and fell.
How do you know the rivets on LiA are his?
Don't make false accusations about someone that you have no info to back it up or no proof. it just makes you sound like an as#@&%e. both ammon and nature
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
The Mountains
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Dec 20, 2004 - 09:59pm PT
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Lambone, yep..... it does make you look like an A-Hole to make accusations without proof. That's why I was vague about telling everyone who did it (kind of).
The truth is, I know exactly who did it but wanted that person to admit it. That will never happen, so it would be nice if someone would just pull the rivets and patch the holes.
Tyler, there are only two rivets directly off the belay to get past some slippery slab moves. It would have taken 5-10 minutes each….. 20 minutes max for both rivets. The 5.8r to the right is just as hard and scary as the direct 510+r….. at least that’s what I thought.
The bottom line is:
I wanted people to be aware that they are there AND the offending rivets should be removed.
Cheers, Ammon
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 24, 2004 - 03:55am PT
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Ammon and I exchanged a few emails at the beginning of December. I told him I would be away caving in Belize among other things from December 3 to 11, but evidently he forgot this, and assumed my lack of response to be something other than my being away.
I resumed correspondence with him when I returned on or about December 13, and answered the three emails that he had sent me while I was away. In fact, I answered them in great detail. As of my writing this post, Ammon has not answered any of my emails, so either he hasn't gotten them, or he has chosen not to respond. I had hoped that this could be resolved in person rather than on an internet forum, but since it's been two weeks, I now write this post.
I soloed Lost In America from June 12-19, 2003, spending seven nights on the wall plus a day or two fixing. Rather fast for me, actually. I don't recall seeing anyone on the wall above me. It was my seventh El Cap solo and my 23rd El Cap route, and included my 190th El Cap bivi. I'm up to 26 El Cap routes now and somewhere around 230 bivis, not counting base and summit bivis. A bit fewer than I might have hoped by the end of this year, but better than things might have turned out after busting my leg this spring. I was awful darn glad to wobble over the summit of Son Of Heart this fall! As Ahnold would say, "I'll be bahck....."
I rated the route NTB - pretty moderate, thankfully. I chose the route because I had just completed Bermuda Dunes, and a few of the PDH pitches on that wall had scared the piss out of me, so I was looking for something a little more mellow, as I had pretty much used up my "fear quotient" for the spring season. Lost In America fit the bill. I really enjoyed the route because I wasn't as scared as I usually am.
I found pitches ten and eleven to be the cruxes - pretty much full-on NTB. I took one pretty decent lob off of the Fly or Die pitch when my talon hook popped out of the [presumably] chicken bathook hole. I hate bathooks! I only used the hole because I was too lazy to clean out the deadhead and place my own new head. I was later told that people on the ground heard me fall - the characteristic rattle of gear and my trademark scream of terror, "Fuuuuuuuuuuck!" I hate falling, too. I'm a total wuss.
Anyway, after that little episode, I spent the time to clean out the deadheads and placed three of my own heads, thus obviating the need to use the bat hole. Ivo had told me I would be scared, and Ivo was right. There were a few rivets on the Fly or Die, perhaps replacing old RURP placements, I can't remember for sure. Maybe some of the RURP placements are beaten out to heads now[?] The pitch also sported a shiny new 3/8" bolt, and I assumed whomever had placed the bolt had also placed the rivets on the bottom of pitch 6.
When I arrived at the top of 5 on the afternoon of Saturday June 14, 2003, I was surprised and somewhat relieved to see a couple of new-looking rivets directly above the fifth belay on the sixth pitch. It wasn't my plan to use them, since the McTopo shows a 5.8R variation to the right. So I climbed into my free climbing shoes [and out of free climbing retirement] and had a look. I hand-traversed about fifteen feet right of the belay, ran out of ledge, hand-traversed five feet back left, ran out of strength while trying to pull the rope back through my Grigri one-handed, and then took a ten-foot pendulum lob into the side of my pigs.
Ouch.
I hate free climbing. That's why I solo big walls. I figured that even *I* could climb 5.8, and if I could figure out where the hell to climb, maybe I even could. I have *no* idea where this so-called 5.8R variation to the right is, but I sure couldn't find it! I figured it was good beta because not only was it on the McTopo, but Chris Van Leuven [Spaz] had told me the same. But I couldn't find any 5.8 climbing, nor could I see the bush shown on the McTopo. It seemed pretty hard to me.
This left me with no other option than to go straight up, which to me looked like the Better Way. I hungrily and greedily clipped those rivets and stood on them, and was bloody glad they were there, thus sparing me the fear of making a couple scary hook moves with factor 2 potential. I didn't drill the two rivets, but I sure as hell clipped 'em. Hell, yeah - I only look stupid. But I have no idea who placed them, or when. Perhaps it was as bulgingpuke suggests above. So sorry to disappoint y'all, but it t'waren't me. You'll have to find someone else to lynch, however you'd best be certain you have your facts straight before you [try to] condemn anyone in absentia.
Note: If the rivets weren't there, I would have "prusiked down" some hooks for pro, which I routinely do while soloing - factor 2 falls are unacceptable. I figured out this little trick when I ran out of duct tape while soloing Zed-Em. Since the lead rope is stationary, you can use a long prusik [really a Klemheist] to hold your hooks in place for pro. This is why I usually climb with at least three sets of hooks. Remember to use a Screamer when you do this. It works, incidentally.
I didn't have my "tuning forks" from Bermuda Dunes with me on Lost In America, and at any rate I do not own a patch kit, nor do I even know what it consists of, but I think you're supposed to use a mixture of epoxy and rock dust to fill the hole, aren't you? However it would have been hypocritical to the max to have clipped the rivets, and then later removed 'em, so I just left the things there. After kissing them, of course. I made a couple more hook moves above them to gain a fixed beak, and from there things got a bit easier.
Anyone who knows anything about me, and about the history of free climbing in Ontario, would know I have never placed a lead rivet or bolt, except in one single instance, which is well documented [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/ascent/index.php?AscentID=349"]here in my solo ascent of Native Son[/url] - I put the rivet on the second pitch to replace the flake that ripped which caused my fall onto the duct-taped hook for pro. Any allegations that I have placed lead rivets or bolts anywhere else are unfounded and untrue.
Like the man opposed to capital punishment, yet who stands in the village square to watch the hanging, I agree with Ammon that the rivets should be removed.
Cheers,
Pete
P.S. If anyone's interested, I'd be happy to email you a copy of my Dr. Piton Super-Duper beta for this route, or for any of the others I've done. You can reach me at peterzabrok at cogeco dot ca.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Dec 24, 2004 - 08:04pm PT
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"The Chicken Rivets Erik Sloan placed on Skull Queen and other routes piss me off just as much as Petes. Mostly because they are trade routes that I can actually climb. whats the point of a Chicken Rivets on easy climbing?"
Hmmm, Lambone... Seems to me that there were already many rivets going through easy climbing on Skull Queen. As well as rivets less than 2 feet apart on some of the ladders. And there were bat hook holes beside the OW on that route before the 10th ascent. Anyone know if they were drilled by the FA party?
and
"BTW- All the rivets on Skull Queen were replaced with the big ones with new holes and the old ones were just bashed in with a hammer. Lame."
Ever tried cleaning well-placed Zamac rivets?
Just asking...
Brutus
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