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funkness
climber
So,Ca.
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Nov 10, 2004 - 06:33pm PT
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The more you climb, the better you get, simple.
Rob ;) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Nov 10, 2004 - 06:41pm PT
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Right now...it's a futon on the floor, but hopefully it will be upgraded to a real bed again in about a month. We've never shared a piece of plywood, so I guess that was gone before we met, although he has upgraded from sleeping bags to real sheets and a comforter.
James..I don't think it's a moral highground. I used to think that he was following some rules of style/ethics and that was why he did things the way that he does, but after three seasons of climbing with him, I really believe that it's just the way that he personally likes playing the game the best.
From what I could tell from our brief coversation over the summer you are improving way faster and climbing a lot harder (effort-wise) than most...and you're still such a youngster! I'm sure if you keep yourself healthy and keep climbing 'cause you love it, you'll be climbing plenty hard when you reach our grizzled old age. I don't know your 'new generation' friends, but the folks that you listed as being established hard climbers have all been at it passionately for a long time and that probably matters more than whether they trained at Rifle or the Cookie, although that's just the theoretical opinion of someone who is still perfectly capable of crying on moderates.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 11, 2004 - 01:31pm PT
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Hey James,
The level of difficulty that is considered normal now is a direct result of gym climbing, and its trad equivalent 'working a route.' There was a time when trad climbing was all there was--yea, yea, back when the founding fathers were arguing states rights.
'Trad' standards have risen because climbers practiced their skills on shorter, harder climbs, climbs that by definition were better protected. Just think about it, when the Salathe was first done, it was considered one of the hardest routes in the world because it had obligatory, poorly protected 5.9 crack climbing. The next generation climbed Pratt's short FA cracks on the sunny crags in the lower Merced canyon and found the Salathe relatively easy. For a while, these short, hard cracks were referred to as 'practice climbs' by some. That faded soon enough.
Then Jardine started working routes and guys like Vern Clevenger started falling off hard stuff--sounds like old school sport climbing to me--and they got better faster than everyone else.
My point here is that what you observe about some of the best ‘trad’ climbers today is not only true, it is in line with long tradition.
Great lead climbing blends different kinks of skills: route finding--read sequences, pulling hard, and staying cool. As best as I can tell, the bile against sport and gym climbing comes because some sport and gym climbers don’t respect the difference between pulling hard next to a bolt and pulling hard next to consequences. However, IMO, the best way to train is to climb until you fall--but you cannot transfer that to lead climbing unless you mentally can picture the move 20 feet above protection—protection that you placed your self and whose capability to hold a whipper you can reliably judge. That is a metal exercise that can be applied to gym, sport routes, TR, short, hard crags, or the 'Headwall' on the Salathe.
When I read about climbers complaining about run out routes, what I think they are missing is that climbing hard on lead without close or certain protection used to be part of the fun--now some climbers want to eliminate that aspect of climbing by making it only 'sport.' However, that is no reason that you cannot use it for its training value.
A long time ago, George Meyers was up and down on a new route on Middle Apron. Roper-–how trad is that?—quipped “it sounds like a job.” It didn’t feel that way to George, and he kept at it. Some old guys thought it was cheating, or just plain dumb, to work so hard on a route. But it became an easy romp for young, good climbers, as predicted.
Good climbing, Roger
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 11, 2004 - 02:00pm PT
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i kind of object to the idea of wanting to climb hard routes because they are hard.
i'd like to think that the lines that inspire me are inspiring because of other intristic aspects, for example- their quality, position, prominance, history, reputation, simple aesthetic elegance, committing nature, or whatever else.
my intrest in improving my own climbing is more related to my interest in being able to climb more of these appealing climbs than anything else, but i suppose there is also a certain beauty in those feelings of complete competence and self determination that only a climber in control of their destiny knows.
the addictive draw of that sensation would also start to explain or describe one of the fundamental differences between trad and sport climbing, because in the relative safety of evenly spaced bolts, perhaps climbers lose both the opportunity and the responsibility to be entirely in command of their own fate.
additionally, the fixation on the grade of this vs. the # of that will inevitably lead you toward a goal oriented approach to climbing, which in my view, is far less rewarding than focusing on the process itself.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Nov 11, 2004 - 02:19pm PT
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Here's a little rant as an aside to this discussion...
Last night I went to the gym and noticed that someone put fresh chalk tick marks on the friggin' hand crack. It's just the gym, so I should say 'So what?', but I worry that the person who learns that ticking the crack in the gym is the way to go is going to think that all ticks are fine everywhere. Personally, the relationship that I want to have with the rock is not one that involves knowing where someone else thought the best jams were going to be. So far, I've only seen ticked cracks limited to what James is probably referring to as "hard trad" (on walls). But why should only the top climbers push their limits that way?
Anyway, my thought was that it would be nice to see the mags and such give more weight to the 'trad' and less to the 'hard' in their coverage of the big sends of the day...since the most 'trad' (least pre-fixed, rehearsed, ticked) ascents, at least in my mind, are probably the hardest. However, I think the distinction often seems glossed over and the value of lower impact ascents of popular routes seems nearly lost in their converage.
I think it's becoming quite common place to have TR lines fixed on some of the more accessable walls so that the studly studs can tick the sh#t out of them and run their mini traxion, fix key peices of gear and clean the annoying fixed pieces, figure out what order to rack the pro and eventually go for the redpoint. Not a big deal when there were only a few people that could play that game, but now there are a lot of people for whom the 5.12 walls are a reasonable goal with enough frigging (and screw those folks for whom the adventure of being 5 days committed to a wall is destroyed by the fixed lines to the ground or summit).
It makes me wonder if I applied the same tactics, would I be leading 5.11 at the Cookie? I'd like to lead 5.11 at the Cookie, so why shouldn't I tick those cracks and leave my line fixed while I project Hardd? The answer as to why not seems obvious to me there...
I know this isn't what your question is about, James, and I didn't mean to imply that, but it does seem like part of the largely accepted route for acheiving what most folks consider 'hard trad'.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Nov 11, 2004 - 06:09pm PT
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Tick Marks Suck.
A rant.
Climbed the other day next to one of those dudes in the knit cap, probably majoring in Ski Area Operations over at the community college, who despite having previously climbed the boulder in question insisted on rookie-striping footholds he'd used before. Holds in question perfectly visible to those who look-- crystals, edges, knoblets--but this kid insisted by his actions that no one could possibly be troubled to look for the grey crystal next to the shallow dish, that the only way this thing could go was by turning it into a ticked-up, dumbed-down version of the local indoor cave. Spilling loose chalk all the while, by the time he got done the place looked like it'd been crop-dusted. Later. I swashed it all off with the rest of my water, but it didn't quite rinse the bad taste from my mouth.
Learn to look around. What kind of world would it be if every hold for hands and feet was flagged? It's not like people can't train themselves to observe that the next foothold is a foot up, six inches left, at the end of the little crease. And if you can't be bothered to do this, at least mop up after your lazy self.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2004 - 02:57am PT
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I just got back from a pretty eye-opening trip to Joshua tree. Some of the most aesthetic lines in the park are also the most difficult and dangerous. It is these routes I aspire to. "Boulder problems" like Up 40 Big Moe So High and others as well as routes like LEave it to Beaver are pretty hair raising test pieces. These things inspire me to "train" obsessively. This week I'm giving up donuts so that when I go back I'll be lighter and stronger.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Nov 15, 2004 - 08:38am PT
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Uh James, not to nitpik or anything but Big Moe is a route, not a boulder problem, even if some folks treat it as such.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Nov 15, 2004 - 09:57am PT
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givin up donuts will make you neither lighter NOR stronger!
Wash the donut down with a green label and keep sending!
mmmm... now you've done it... i'm hungry.
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alasdair
Trad climber
scotland
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Nov 15, 2004 - 07:27pm PT
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Trad is onsight ground up, the huber brother are not particularly trad climbers though i admire them hugely.
Hard trad (the dangerous kind) is headpointed ie rehearsed like sport climbing and tends in the UK at least to have much more in common with hard high ball bouldering ie grit.
The hardest trad onsight was last year by dave birkett a little known lake district hardman in england. the ONLY e8 onsight ever.
He's solid 5.14 sport new router as well, and has repeated e10 presently the state of the headpoint art
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 15, 2004 - 07:37pm PT
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i wonder how much time that guy spends on the internet
=)
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Nov 16, 2004 - 11:43am PT
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You're right, we are such total wankers.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Nov 16, 2004 - 11:48am PT
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Do you think the pseudonyms protect people whose real names have been trademarked and liscenced by their sponsors?
Wank, wank...Good morning!
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 27, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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Well James what's the secret then?
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 27, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
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Revive we want the secret formula! Do I just take the red pill?
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None that I want
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 25, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
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I haven't read through all of the comments (there are quite a few), so if I'm repeating an already mentioned notion, forgive me.
My idea is this: sport climbing and bouldering are (most) valuable to a trad climber if said climber is afraid to push his or her limits on gear.
The colloquial mentality (so it seems) is that placing gear is more dangerous, generally, than either clipping bolts or aiming for a crash pad. Whether or not this is true depends almost entirely on the amount of competent climbers there are in each category ("competent" here applies to risk-management, rather than physical strength). It also seems to be true that one cannot progress (at least not quickly) if one does not push his or her limits. So, if you're afraid to push your limits on gear, then you probably won't progress as quickly as those who are not afraid to do so, nor than those who are already extremely strong (from sport climbing and bouldering) that are also afraid to push their limits on gear (their limits, obviously, will be higher).
That being said, I certainly do not support the opinion that sport climbing or bouldering does not contribute to one's ability as a trad climber; tendon strength is tendon strength (although, of course, different techniques are necessary for each discipline).
So, if you're comfortable pushing your limits on gear, then you may not benefit much more from sport climbing/bouldering than trad climbing. If you aren't comfortable pushing your limits on gear, then you probably will benefit from sport climbing/bouldering.
My 2 cents.
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