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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 8, 2004 - 02:28am PT
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Difficult trad climbing is the pinnacle of climbing because it involves both mental and physical fortitude. An examination of the best trad climbers in the world-Caldwell, The Huberbaum, and Yuji, show that some of the best training for trad climbing is sport wanking-an often frowned open activity. I fully believe that in order to become rad at trad one must immerse him or herself in the tighest and shinest lycra on the planet. Is it really possible to become good at trad climbing without doing extensive amounts of other types of climbing? Is sport wanking a frivolous activity for giznels or does it have applicable value?
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Ca
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It is only too obvious that you are not a trad climber and have no clue. Next time you have a question try asking it without answering it in the same post. And you probably should not try to answer questions you don't understand.
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macgyver
Social climber
Oregon
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Yes. But you need larger than average metaphorical balls.
My metaphorical balls are of average size which corresponds to my average trad abilities.
Did I just say that?
M
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Dearest James,
Your astute examination of rad tradsters is correctomundo. In order to be one with hard trad you must be just like them. Remove one of your least useful digits with a band saw in order to drop weight. Whilst cavorting around the Valley you should wear black leather pants and nothing else, ja? Let your flaxen locks grow. Lube down your brother before hard sends to get the jitters out. Special consideration must be given to ze pectoral muscles. Finally, wanking of all sorts is a must, not only sport wanking.
Keep up the faith! It is well known that Walter Bonatti and Fritz Wiessner cranked hard at Rifle and American Fork to train. Peace out.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2004 - 04:27pm PT
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ShorTimer-You shouldn't attempt to denigerate people you don't know. One of the prominent difficulties in the internet world is that one is unaware of another's credibility. If you need me to substantiate my claim that I am a trad climber I will but I would rather not spray endlessly on this forum. Suffice to say that I am a Yosemite valley "local" and that this claim can be backed.
Yo-I appreciate your sarcasm but examine the history of some of the best trad climbers in the world and you will find that most of them are also exemplary sport climbers. While Walter Bonatti and Fritz Wiesnner haven't spent much time at Rifle-rad trad climbers like "Platnium" Rob Miller, Dean Potter, Steph Davis, Tommy Caldwell, and Adam Stack have. I think people forget this part because the converse of the initial statement is false. People who predominately sport wank do not always make good trad climbers-they mostly make good posers.
Despite the somewhat asinine remarks made I firmly believe that this is a legitimate question. There is an emeriging population of neo-stonemasters known as the "Monkeys" They are the young dirtbags who are seeking to exile in climbing-Thad Friday, Renan Ozturk, Jens Holsten, Lucho Rivera...etc. A number of different theories have been presented by members of the group as to how to progress to higher levels of trad climbing. One of the prominent ideas is that having a strong sport climbing/bouldering background will allow you to use your sporty technigue on difficult trad climbers. Charlie of the Toulumne Grill's ascent of Cosmic Debris shows how having a background in steep and difficult climbing allows one to climb hard trad. Charlie is a strong boulderer with a number of difficult boulder problems and sport routes in his portfolio. The other camp says it is unnecessary to focus so much on sport and that all that is required is a vast amount of experience. Mike Schaffer's spring ascent of the Phoneix supports this theory. He is predominately a trad climber and spends little time "sport wanking."
I am currently training to become a better trad climber and have implemented an increasing amount of sport climbing and bouldering into my regime. I feel as though it's a worthwhile endeavor. I would like to hear other opinions though as I am not totally committed to a view.
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Donny Quijote
Sport climber
Boulder F'n CO
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Trad is for homoz anyway
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Skinner
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Trad is for those who want to protect themselves from dying in case they fall....sport is for those on the other side of the spectrum (small nuts, obsessive compulsive about they're new rash guards and yellow tinted sunglasses that they thought might have scratched when a few pebbles flaked off the wall...this in turn would lead them to believe the climb is pretty chossy and gritty and only worth 1 star instead of 3 stars), soloing is for those who aren't going to fall, or don't care so much. I personally subscribe to the school of carrying much more gear than is needed so as to build my endurance and overall power (when I'm 50 and overweight I will still be climbing) and placing less, spritzy spritz
see you in a 5pc tupperware
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Clayman
Trad climber
CA
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So how do you get strong when you can only boulder and sport on the weekends and the only form of climbing specific trainign is a hangboard. Can you really get stronger for next season on a hangboard alone? I too want to climb hard trad and the only thing that i have availiabe right now is hangboard ive been using almost everyday. Any ideas? thanks.
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dufas
Trad climber
san francisco
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Since I can't get out all that often, I train so that when I do get out I can climb at a decent (for me) level. I have a campus board, different widths of cracks and some steep wall holds set up. Yeah, it would be better to be out there placing pro much more often, but its better than flabbin out and struggling up Munginella and Pine Line.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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hey Skinner, 50 and overweight sounds like me! and I am still climbing and I'm better every year...
James, if you want to climb hard, climb hard... often, and partake of all of the climbing disciplines. Bouldering, sport, gym, trad, ice climb, mixed, mountaineering... do it obsessively, do it every waking moment, never stop thinking about it, or preparing for it, or doing it... set goals, work them, accomplish them, set the next round of goals, repeat.
Give it your all. Then see where you end up. If you aren't interested in committing to it then be content to climb below your potential. There is no magic bullet training regime. Your mother was right: "practice makes perfect".... get on with it.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Drink a lot of beer. Wake up the next morn and drink a lot of coffee.
Go to a boulder with a lot of features. Place gear/remove it...
Sell your cheap TV and go buy hexes and nuts.
Climb a 5.6
Sport and Trad are very different. Time spent placing gear vs. clipping a bolt are as you say...mental and physical. The "rewards" are much higher.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Ca
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James, I am sorry if you were personnally insulted by my response. I supposed that your question was pure troll and responded in kind.
If you want a real answer, it is that everything helps everything else. If you can get stronger doing some sport routes, go for it. But learning to sport climb will not make you a trad climber. Only time on the rock with your ass hanging over the void with only your own skills at pro placements to save said ass if you fall, will do that. I have 31 of those years behind me and I still trad, sport, gym and boulder climb every chance I get.
It's about passion after all, either you got it or you don't!
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Jay
Trad climber
Fort Mill, SC
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James, simply put trad climbing involves more skill than boulering or sport. It doesn't necesarily hone the strength and endurance aspects though. And if you're in a mindset of training those areas, with less planning and knowledge of any particular climbing crag sport or boulding may suite you better in most cases. I've gotten "in shape" for killer trad climbing trips by doing sport and gym climbs simply because the skill I needed was already there. The choice I made was not that I prefered sport and plastic, but how to maximise my limited time. Trad climbing rules over all the rest though.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Nov 10, 2004 - 01:34am PT
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James, you are pretty right on. I will say that shorttimer is sort of correct - you did answer your own question.
The best crack (I guess that is trad) climbers I know are also very excellent sport climbers. "The Doctor" and Rodman are on fire right now. You might know them as the party that freed Shangri-la (III 5.12+) in Sedona. Rodman very soon should send a project in Winslow - if he sissies out and stops it at the last bolt (lowering the anchor) it will only be 5.14a (Karate kick) (and it would be done). He's linked to the chaines and when he sends will call it 14c (Big Karate Kick). "The Doctor" (Bloom) has sent (establishing some) dozens and dozens of 5.12 Indian creek climbs. I need no further proof that to be good at any one aspect of climbing you need to be open minded to all. Oh, I also have another friend that is a pretty good trad climb - Matt Childers. I video taped him doing the second ascent of The Equalizer (5.13-) [a crack] at the Forks. A few weeks later (or was it before) he sent Caligula and French Kissing the Cobra (both 5.13b at Winslow Wall) [all bolts]. Oh, and before he left town he also made sure to free "Your Mother" (which is right next to Shangri-la in Sedona and went at a sandbagged 5.12+ something).
If you are a trad climber than placing gear is old hat. It is for me. I've done enough walls to know what gear is good and what is marginal. Move beyond that and start training physically. By sport climbing you can take lead falls that are safe and it teaches you how to fall (and how not to be scared of falling!). It increases finger strength. The longer you can hang on, the less you care about what gear is below you. That's a huge part of the mental game that dicking with gear will never get you.
I trained for my trip to the Vamps by sport climbing. I was physically in great shape because of it. The limiting factors had little to do with my training program (the environment kicked our asses).
Just blow off anyone that cops the attitude that to be a trad climber you can only climb trad. You are in to training mode and that rules.
I guess my advice would be on how you "should" be climbing sport routes for training purposes. If you do it for the conditionaing and use it as a way to build mental and physical strenght than you will help with your trad training. If it's about the numbers (and I can tell it isn't)....
Sooo.. what are you training for? Any specific routes in mind?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Nov 10, 2004 - 01:31pm PT
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"Just blow off anyone that cops the attitude that to be a trad climber you can only climb trad. You are in to training mode and that rules"
...Especially if that person is yourself. (You called it "sport wanking".) You're in good shape and already climb pretty hard, so if you don't enjoy yourself while "training", really what's the point? I bet that most of the sponsored studmuffins got good just loving it before they started training to send for fame and fortune. I see a lot of people at all kinds of levels get so hung up on insisting that gym/sport/bouldering sucks that they can't let themselves enjoy it or get as much out of it once they decide to go do it anyway. I'm kind of one of them too. I was a lot stronger and got more out of going to they gym when it just was climbing, first order, for me rather than not-really-climbing and training for something else.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2004 - 02:25pm PT
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I have recently developed a quiet liking for the sport world. The guilt keeps me up at night for images of backstepping and flagging are pure blasphemy in the traditional world I was born into. I throughly enjoy sport climbing. It isn't that much different from hard trad climbing in actuality. On some of the harder trad climbs I've done I've had to do specific sequences to place gear just like in sport climbing to clip a bolt. My general concern is that I want to become a better trad climber. I aspire to a high level of mastery in the game and am seeking to excel at it through any accessible reasonable means. I believe that I have reached a plateau in my trad ability and that to break through into the next level I must "train"-aka sport climb-to break through. I am curious if anyone knows people who have climbed 5.13 trad without doing a fair amount of bouldering/sportclimbing. Indian creek routes don't count as they are merely tests of fitness and hand size.
Melissa-has Shaggy done much sport climbing/bouldering?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Nov 10, 2004 - 02:35pm PT
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James..fwiw, J has only gone sport climbing one or two times to my knowledge and never climbed in a gym until he met me. Take this all w/ a grain of salt as I am speaking for him and might not have it all quite right, but he has rarely if ever even "worked" a route on gear. Even the really long ones...He'd rather just give it his best ground up. Not because he's stuck on some ethic, but because that's the style of climbing that he enjoys. The game he likes to play is staying on the rock and not falling (and sometimes it really, really counts to do this), so climbing in a way that has falling as part of the learning process isn't really what trains him the way that he wants to train or gives him what he enjoys. He has improved plenty over the years, obviously. Maybe he'd climb harder grades if he sport climbed, but since the rent isn't riding on his next big send, he gets to pick whatever path he enjoys the most instead of which has the highest numbered pay off, although it's totally understandable that for some people doing the hardest physical thing possible is where it's at independent of other things.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2004 - 05:24pm PT
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Melissa
Let J know he's my hero. He's probably one of the best climbers I have ever met not only for his ability but his approach to climbing and the way he sticks to his high moral ground without being prentitious and still being supportive of others.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Nov 10, 2004 - 06:04pm PT
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I just want to know if he still sleeps on a piece of plywood with a beat-out old chunk of ensolite on top, or has having a GF changed all that??
;) Rob
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Nov 10, 2004 - 06:29pm PT
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More relevantly, James, (and I don't climb 5.13 on any kind of gear),
I think I personally learned more about hard climbing and movement by bouldering than I ever did climbing over gear. People talk about bouldering and sport climbing like they're the same thing, but I think that's just cuz similar-looking people like 'em both-- it's a social distinction. As Sherman pointed out long ago, every fall bouldering is a ground fall.
Anyhow, I can I.D. with the plateau feeling, so this interests me. Right now I live in a place where the best local climbing entails clipping bolts, and I'm getting to where I dig it. It's cool to climb really hard things, and to practice them over and over learning the subtleties and truth of every single move. I felt before like I wasn't learning much climbing 5.10 routes on gear, except maybe how to do more and more pitches in a day. I still hate falling, but at least I can sort of take a little whip every once in a while instead of whimpering, down-sketching, and hesitating until a fall (or a hang) is inevitable.
Somebody told me once that climbing hard is a trade-off. You have to give something up in order to get better. You have to give up feeling like a hero for climbing 5.K when all your friends can only pull 5.J. You have to give up ideas like you're gonna die if you fall, or that you can't flag or backstep in the vicinity of self-placed protection, or that placing that gear makes you a better person than that kid in the knit cap whom you resent because he's way stronger than you and has only been climbing for 2 of his 19 years.
So maybe you need to give up on calling it 'sport-wanking'. Wanking is as wanking does, if you ask me. I was starting to feel like a wanker after umpteen years of climbing at the same grade. There's nothing really bold about getting on things you're pretty damn sure you can climb without falling, day after day (as long as you're wearing a rope etc). Wanking is when you're not pushing yourself, but pretending that you are. I don't think I'm alone in asserting that I've learned plenty from various forms of safe climbing-- sport, TR, little boulders-- that I never could have while sticking in pro. Topropes, bolts, crashpads-- training wheels, water wings, spotters. To keep yourself basically safe while you're learning new skills requires that you scale back on certain other things, like physical risk, commitment, or ego protection. Someone is going to catch you clipping bolts. Don't sweat it. As long as you're enjoying yourself, and you've got this goal of increased difficulty in mind, you're on the right track. Think for yourself and have fun.
Rob
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funkness
climber
So,Ca.
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Nov 10, 2004 - 06:33pm PT
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The more you climb, the better you get, simple.
Rob ;) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Nov 10, 2004 - 06:41pm PT
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Right now...it's a futon on the floor, but hopefully it will be upgraded to a real bed again in about a month. We've never shared a piece of plywood, so I guess that was gone before we met, although he has upgraded from sleeping bags to real sheets and a comforter.
James..I don't think it's a moral highground. I used to think that he was following some rules of style/ethics and that was why he did things the way that he does, but after three seasons of climbing with him, I really believe that it's just the way that he personally likes playing the game the best.
From what I could tell from our brief coversation over the summer you are improving way faster and climbing a lot harder (effort-wise) than most...and you're still such a youngster! I'm sure if you keep yourself healthy and keep climbing 'cause you love it, you'll be climbing plenty hard when you reach our grizzled old age. I don't know your 'new generation' friends, but the folks that you listed as being established hard climbers have all been at it passionately for a long time and that probably matters more than whether they trained at Rifle or the Cookie, although that's just the theoretical opinion of someone who is still perfectly capable of crying on moderates.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 11, 2004 - 01:31pm PT
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Hey James,
The level of difficulty that is considered normal now is a direct result of gym climbing, and its trad equivalent 'working a route.' There was a time when trad climbing was all there was--yea, yea, back when the founding fathers were arguing states rights.
'Trad' standards have risen because climbers practiced their skills on shorter, harder climbs, climbs that by definition were better protected. Just think about it, when the Salathe was first done, it was considered one of the hardest routes in the world because it had obligatory, poorly protected 5.9 crack climbing. The next generation climbed Pratt's short FA cracks on the sunny crags in the lower Merced canyon and found the Salathe relatively easy. For a while, these short, hard cracks were referred to as 'practice climbs' by some. That faded soon enough.
Then Jardine started working routes and guys like Vern Clevenger started falling off hard stuff--sounds like old school sport climbing to me--and they got better faster than everyone else.
My point here is that what you observe about some of the best ‘trad’ climbers today is not only true, it is in line with long tradition.
Great lead climbing blends different kinks of skills: route finding--read sequences, pulling hard, and staying cool. As best as I can tell, the bile against sport and gym climbing comes because some sport and gym climbers don’t respect the difference between pulling hard next to a bolt and pulling hard next to consequences. However, IMO, the best way to train is to climb until you fall--but you cannot transfer that to lead climbing unless you mentally can picture the move 20 feet above protection—protection that you placed your self and whose capability to hold a whipper you can reliably judge. That is a metal exercise that can be applied to gym, sport routes, TR, short, hard crags, or the 'Headwall' on the Salathe.
When I read about climbers complaining about run out routes, what I think they are missing is that climbing hard on lead without close or certain protection used to be part of the fun--now some climbers want to eliminate that aspect of climbing by making it only 'sport.' However, that is no reason that you cannot use it for its training value.
A long time ago, George Meyers was up and down on a new route on Middle Apron. Roper-–how trad is that?—quipped “it sounds like a job.” It didn’t feel that way to George, and he kept at it. Some old guys thought it was cheating, or just plain dumb, to work so hard on a route. But it became an easy romp for young, good climbers, as predicted.
Good climbing, Roger
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 11, 2004 - 02:00pm PT
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i kind of object to the idea of wanting to climb hard routes because they are hard.
i'd like to think that the lines that inspire me are inspiring because of other intristic aspects, for example- their quality, position, prominance, history, reputation, simple aesthetic elegance, committing nature, or whatever else.
my intrest in improving my own climbing is more related to my interest in being able to climb more of these appealing climbs than anything else, but i suppose there is also a certain beauty in those feelings of complete competence and self determination that only a climber in control of their destiny knows.
the addictive draw of that sensation would also start to explain or describe one of the fundamental differences between trad and sport climbing, because in the relative safety of evenly spaced bolts, perhaps climbers lose both the opportunity and the responsibility to be entirely in command of their own fate.
additionally, the fixation on the grade of this vs. the # of that will inevitably lead you toward a goal oriented approach to climbing, which in my view, is far less rewarding than focusing on the process itself.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Nov 11, 2004 - 02:19pm PT
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Here's a little rant as an aside to this discussion...
Last night I went to the gym and noticed that someone put fresh chalk tick marks on the friggin' hand crack. It's just the gym, so I should say 'So what?', but I worry that the person who learns that ticking the crack in the gym is the way to go is going to think that all ticks are fine everywhere. Personally, the relationship that I want to have with the rock is not one that involves knowing where someone else thought the best jams were going to be. So far, I've only seen ticked cracks limited to what James is probably referring to as "hard trad" (on walls). But why should only the top climbers push their limits that way?
Anyway, my thought was that it would be nice to see the mags and such give more weight to the 'trad' and less to the 'hard' in their coverage of the big sends of the day...since the most 'trad' (least pre-fixed, rehearsed, ticked) ascents, at least in my mind, are probably the hardest. However, I think the distinction often seems glossed over and the value of lower impact ascents of popular routes seems nearly lost in their converage.
I think it's becoming quite common place to have TR lines fixed on some of the more accessable walls so that the studly studs can tick the sh#t out of them and run their mini traxion, fix key peices of gear and clean the annoying fixed pieces, figure out what order to rack the pro and eventually go for the redpoint. Not a big deal when there were only a few people that could play that game, but now there are a lot of people for whom the 5.12 walls are a reasonable goal with enough frigging (and screw those folks for whom the adventure of being 5 days committed to a wall is destroyed by the fixed lines to the ground or summit).
It makes me wonder if I applied the same tactics, would I be leading 5.11 at the Cookie? I'd like to lead 5.11 at the Cookie, so why shouldn't I tick those cracks and leave my line fixed while I project Hardd? The answer as to why not seems obvious to me there...
I know this isn't what your question is about, James, and I didn't mean to imply that, but it does seem like part of the largely accepted route for acheiving what most folks consider 'hard trad'.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Nov 11, 2004 - 06:09pm PT
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Tick Marks Suck.
A rant.
Climbed the other day next to one of those dudes in the knit cap, probably majoring in Ski Area Operations over at the community college, who despite having previously climbed the boulder in question insisted on rookie-striping footholds he'd used before. Holds in question perfectly visible to those who look-- crystals, edges, knoblets--but this kid insisted by his actions that no one could possibly be troubled to look for the grey crystal next to the shallow dish, that the only way this thing could go was by turning it into a ticked-up, dumbed-down version of the local indoor cave. Spilling loose chalk all the while, by the time he got done the place looked like it'd been crop-dusted. Later. I swashed it all off with the rest of my water, but it didn't quite rinse the bad taste from my mouth.
Learn to look around. What kind of world would it be if every hold for hands and feet was flagged? It's not like people can't train themselves to observe that the next foothold is a foot up, six inches left, at the end of the little crease. And if you can't be bothered to do this, at least mop up after your lazy self.
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James
Gym climber
City by the Bay
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2004 - 02:57am PT
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I just got back from a pretty eye-opening trip to Joshua tree. Some of the most aesthetic lines in the park are also the most difficult and dangerous. It is these routes I aspire to. "Boulder problems" like Up 40 Big Moe So High and others as well as routes like LEave it to Beaver are pretty hair raising test pieces. These things inspire me to "train" obsessively. This week I'm giving up donuts so that when I go back I'll be lighter and stronger.
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Nov 15, 2004 - 08:38am PT
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Uh James, not to nitpik or anything but Big Moe is a route, not a boulder problem, even if some folks treat it as such.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Nov 15, 2004 - 09:57am PT
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givin up donuts will make you neither lighter NOR stronger!
Wash the donut down with a green label and keep sending!
mmmm... now you've done it... i'm hungry.
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alasdair
Trad climber
scotland
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Nov 15, 2004 - 07:27pm PT
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Trad is onsight ground up, the huber brother are not particularly trad climbers though i admire them hugely.
Hard trad (the dangerous kind) is headpointed ie rehearsed like sport climbing and tends in the UK at least to have much more in common with hard high ball bouldering ie grit.
The hardest trad onsight was last year by dave birkett a little known lake district hardman in england. the ONLY e8 onsight ever.
He's solid 5.14 sport new router as well, and has repeated e10 presently the state of the headpoint art
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Matt
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Nov 15, 2004 - 07:37pm PT
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i wonder how much time that guy spends on the internet
=)
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Nov 16, 2004 - 11:43am PT
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You're right, we are such total wankers.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Nov 16, 2004 - 11:48am PT
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Do you think the pseudonyms protect people whose real names have been trademarked and liscenced by their sponsors?
Wank, wank...Good morning!
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 27, 2014 - 11:39am PT
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Well James what's the secret then?
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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May 27, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
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Revive we want the secret formula! Do I just take the red pill?
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None that I want
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 25, 2015 - 10:10pm PT
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I haven't read through all of the comments (there are quite a few), so if I'm repeating an already mentioned notion, forgive me.
My idea is this: sport climbing and bouldering are (most) valuable to a trad climber if said climber is afraid to push his or her limits on gear.
The colloquial mentality (so it seems) is that placing gear is more dangerous, generally, than either clipping bolts or aiming for a crash pad. Whether or not this is true depends almost entirely on the amount of competent climbers there are in each category ("competent" here applies to risk-management, rather than physical strength). It also seems to be true that one cannot progress (at least not quickly) if one does not push his or her limits. So, if you're afraid to push your limits on gear, then you probably won't progress as quickly as those who are not afraid to do so, nor than those who are already extremely strong (from sport climbing and bouldering) that are also afraid to push their limits on gear (their limits, obviously, will be higher).
That being said, I certainly do not support the opinion that sport climbing or bouldering does not contribute to one's ability as a trad climber; tendon strength is tendon strength (although, of course, different techniques are necessary for each discipline).
So, if you're comfortable pushing your limits on gear, then you may not benefit much more from sport climbing/bouldering than trad climbing. If you aren't comfortable pushing your limits on gear, then you probably will benefit from sport climbing/bouldering.
My 2 cents.
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