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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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I want to see the Ouch treatment of the U-boat, Fat-wood.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2007 - 01:22pm PT
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"There will be a war with Iran, the europeans spent almost two years negotiating the nuclear issue with them and got nowhere. "
Goddammit fatty. They got nowhere because WE gave them no support and without assurances from US then there really isn't a whole lot to negotiate over.
This is like when Cheney leaked bad intel to the New York Times which then printed it and then Cheney could say "look, even the New York Times is saying the same thing!"
There will be a war only so long as WE create one. Fatty you are totally committed to this war and if people like you have anything to do with it it WILL happen. If they aren't then it WON'T. Stop acting like it is predertermined when your boys in the White House have to bend over backwards to make it happen. This is no different than calling the war with Iraq "inevitable." Look how hard they had to work to make that happen and they stand there and act like they had no other choice. They had no other choice because they had already chosen the one outcome they wanted! You are doing the exact same thing!
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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andanother--I'm impressed. You actually do have your own opinions and they're pretty damn good. Glad to see you're not wasting your thought processes on AC anymore...at least not on this thread (smile, smile).
Fattrad--"Woody, You and I will take care of the problem when we purchase the sub. We'll dress as pirates and say "Arghhh" often." Now that's some funny chit!!! I have to admit that when I read Woody's post, it makes YOU seem almost liberal. (Sorry matey, no insult meant. Back to the 3 monitors and 18 phone lines with you!!!)
Woody--For a guy whose crotch has a chicken head and gnarled yellow claws coming out of it (among other things), you seem to have lost the plot here. Didn't you read Jane's book? (I know--it's a stupid question.) She publicly admitted what a dumbass she was in her youth, and apologized in a big way to all the veterans and non-vets. And don't go saying you CAN'T forgive her--we've all done stupid things in our youth that someone somewhere DID forgive us for. And if we can be forgiven for being dumbasses in our youth, I think we should be able to accord the same to someone like Jane. The firey passions of youth have been an excuse for far greater acts of idiocy, trust me.
You might also want to consider the fact that there are lots of folks out there like Hangerlessbolt who DID serve in the military, who've earned the right accorded firsthand experience of war to speak about war, and he's saying killing people ain't the way. How else are you going to show war isn't a good thing unless you use body counts, number of wounded, lives destroyed, etc? You're incorporating mistakes made in the Vietnam Era into your present-day conversations, and a lot of that precedent just doesn't apply to the here and now.
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WBraun
climber
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I have to say also that is the best thing you've ever said here andanother. (That post to Chaz and Woody)
I'm impressed!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"I'm digusted by the way Bush has screwed up and failed pretty much across the board, and I doubt we will succeed in Iraq; but I refuse to ally myself with the same scum that denigrated our military in Vietnam. They've changed tactics, but they're the same two-faced hypocrits they were then. "
As someone who both served two years in Vietnam and protested on returning, I'd say only the hypocritical and ignorant were not opposed to the war. And for about the millionth time it has been said - opposing the war does not have to be synonomous with 'dinigrating our military'; and 'the military' is not necessarily 'our troops'. In both Vietnam and Iraq our senior military staff completely failed the nation. But given the hindsight of Vietnam, their failure in Iraq is all the more grevious in not standing up to an administration bent on an ill-advised and worse-concieved war. This president and our senior military staff have repeatedly failed our nation in this war, and worst of all, have completely failed our men and women in uniform by their lack of courage.
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dirtbag
climber
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"The reason we don't hear the numbers of American casualties in Afghanistan is because there is no political agenda the Left can advance by stating it.
To the Left, American casualties in Afghanistan are just not as important as those in Iraq. If they were, we would see just as many memorials to American Soldiers and Marines who died in Afghanistan as we do for those who died in Iraq.
And I have yet to see a single one.
Zero. "
Ah, bullshit Chaz. I actually think you and Woody post intelligent stuff: then you two post this kind of garbage? Maybe because to most people, including me, the US has a legitimate mission in Afghanistan in eliminating a strong al qaeda. The problem with Iraq is that we were fed a bunch of lies about it, and now we are paying dearly for it. Sorry to see you are still drinking that kool aid.
Juan apparently still thinks 9/11 and Iraq are connected. Fool.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I from the start knew 9/11 and Iraq were not connected.
I supported and do support war as a proactive preemptive deterrent.
We take the war to them, we kill them on their soil.
With no attacks on the Homeland since 9/11 the Bush Plan works.
Losing 5000 US troops is the price of doing business.
Its a whole new world, get used to our troops dying.
This is just the start.
If 20,000 US troops have to die each year to keep the Muslims at bay so be it.
JDF
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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Locker--Are you saying we just got trolled by an old guy in tights?????
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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" I from the start knew 9/11 and Iraq were not connected.
I supported and do support war as a proactive preemptive deterrent."
Kinda leaves us wide open, now, don't it? what about aggressive terrorists? Should we actually also do something about them?
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dirtbag
climber
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Then Juan, why post pics of people jumping out of the building?
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Woody, there's a world of difference between using photos of falling people as a justification for more horror, and saying, "Look, a lot of good people are dying, let's not add to the death count." Your comment saying that the left is doing the same thing as the right here is typical neo-con bullsh#t. When many of the best and brightest military and civilian minds agree that, "Iraq is not an effective solution to fighting terror," then we should listen and think critically, not just blindly support more destruction.
I support "the troops:" Let's get them out of the madness the US government has put them in. The troops are brave enough and loyal enough to do what the government asks, we need to be brave and loyal enough to say, "Really bad idea, let's not kill more of our troops in support of it."
Again, this is not a "clash of cilivations," it's a clash of fringe idiots dragging civilization down. I don't think anyone could argue Iraq is more civilized today than it was at the start of this madness, nor the US.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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American dead in Afganistan are the quiet dead; they can't be used by the left so they are ignored.
I clearly remember how the left wept and bled gallons of tears over civilian deaths in Vietnam...until we left. Then, hardly a peep about the butchering of a million plus Vietnamese by the Communists. There were a very few honest anti-war people who did protest, but very few.
Jane Fonda was a "dumbass kid". Jane Fonda knew what she was doing; she was an adult and a traitor. Protesting the war was within the traditions of our country--civil-disobedience; going over to the enemy the way she did wasn't and should have bought her the noose.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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JDF - I supported and do support war as a proactive preemptive deterrent.
That's funny. I imagine that's what Osama said on 9/10.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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"We take the war to them, we kill them on their soil."
The long-term fallout from having killed tens of thousands of civilians cannot yet be measured. And beyond the Iraqi border, we have managed to burn what little good will the US enjoyed prior to this war.
It looks like Bush "outed" his Dad's cronies though his ineptitude. You can imagine how Cheney feels about "the kid" screwing up so royally whilst carrying out corporate America's war plan.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Hey...Afghanistan takes the lead as the world's top producer of heroin, after the US overthrew the Taleban. Wonder if that was an added consideration by politicians invested in the drug trade?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Things to do.
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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John--That was excellent!
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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'nother dam hippie poster...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I say throw some bombs at the problem and maybe it will go away?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2007 - 08:10pm PT
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Fatty-
"Clinton cut a deal with the N. Koreans, I was all for it, of course Lil' Kim was cheating the entire time."
As I've stated multiple times in other threads after you say this exact same thing: WE WEREN'T ABIDING BY THE AGREEMENT EITHER!! Why? Congress refused to support it.
Thank you for continuing to demonstrate the EXTREMELY selective logic and rationale that has us "marching inevitably towards war."
Pretending it is inevitable is just an easy way to justify wanting to make it happen. Of course there is absolutely no evidence to show that it will work. The argument you and I are engaged in about Iran is virtually identical in every way to the one preceding war with Iraq. I'm not sure if you have been paying attention but that one didn't turn out too well.
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