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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 3, 2007 - 09:36pm PT
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02/03/iran.warning.reut/index.html
In a letter to London's Sunday Times newspaper, the three former U.S. military leaders said attacking Iran "would have disastrous consequences for security in the region, coalition forces in Iraq and would further exacerbate regional and global tensions," they wrote.
"The current crisis must be resolved through diplomacy," they said.
The letter was signed by retired Army Lt. Gen. Robert Gard, a former military assistant to Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, retired U.S. Marine Corps Gen. Joseph Hoar, a former commander in chief of U.S. Central Command; and retired Navy Vice Adm. Jack Shanahan, a former director of the Center for Defense Information.
They urged the U.S. government to "engage immediately in direct talks with the government of Iran without preconditions.
Have someone braid another flower into your hair you effin hippies.
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andanother
climber
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those three just need haircuts.
damn hippies. Always preachin' about things they know nothing about.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Not to worry, Iran will not exist at the end of this year.
JDF
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Iranian nuclear scientist ‘assassinated by Mossad’
Sarah Baxter, Washington
A PRIZE-WINNING Iranian nuclear scientist has died in mysterious circumstances, according to Radio Farda, which is funded by the US State Department and broadcasts to Iran.
An intelligence source suggested that Ardeshire Hassanpour, 44, a nuclear physicist, had been assassinated by Mossad, the Israeli security service.
Hassanpour worked at a plant in Isfahan where uranium hexafluoride gas is produced. The gas is needed to enrich uranium in another plant at Natanz which has become the focus of concerns that Iran may be developing nuclear weapons.
According to Radio Farda, Iranian reports of Hassanpour’s death emerged on January 21 after a delay of six days, giving the cause as “gas poisoning”. The Iranian reports did not say how or where Hassanpour was poisoned but his death was said to have been announced at a conference on nuclear safety.
Rheva Bhalla of Stratfor, the US intelligence company, claimed on Friday that Hassanpour had been targeted by Mossad and that there was “very strong intelligence” to suggest that he had been assassinated by the Israelis, who have repeatedly threatened to prevent Iran acquiring the bomb.
Hassanpour won Iran’s leading military research prize in 2004 and was awarded top prize at the Kharazmi international science festival in Iran last year.
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is expected to announce next Sunday — the 28th anniversary of the Islamic revolution — that 3,000 centrifuges have been installed at Natanz, enabling Iran to move closer to industrial scale uranium enrichment.
Inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency say that hundreds of technicians and labourers have been “working feverishly” to assemble equipment at the plant.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Too bad a great Love-in can't be arranged for all remaining Hippies, then...
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Tahoe climber
Trad climber
a dark-green forester out west
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" three former U.S. military leaders said attacking Iran "would have disastrous consequences for security in the region, coalition forces in Iraq and would further exacerbate regional and global tensions," they wrote. "
yeah. no sh#t. what a revelation.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2007 - 07:20pm PT
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It is to Woody and Fatty.
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SteveW
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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And I'm sure you all will be the first to volunteer for duty,
huh? How many more deaths do we need, how many more maimed
soldiers, how many of your tax dollars do you want flowing to
Halliburton/Cheney and the rest of the defense contractors. . .
Instead of getting national health care so maybe climbers could have some insurance when they got hurt. You guys are real brave
making the comments here. Big chicken hawks. Stand up for your words, brave boys, join the military. You could be the first in line to invade another country we really don't have a beef with. . .other than to try and claim their oil.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Yeah, what's with those godamned hippies?
Don't they realize,
that having the ruling class make more money
is ultimately in the best interests of them and theirs??
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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How many Americans killed in Afghanistan?
Oh I forgot, we don't keep track of THOSE guys because they can't be used to advance a political agenda. I guess they're not as important.
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andanother
climber
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"Oh I forgot, we don't keep track of THOSE guys because they can't be used to advance a political agenda. "
Totally! I can't beleive the crazy left wingers are explointing the deaths of our soldiers.
The right wingers would NEVER do that. No way! Instead they will exploit the LIVES of our soldiers to advance a political agenda.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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"Instead they will exploit the LIVES of our soldiers to advance a political agenda"
"Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated."
Thomas Paine, Great American 1776
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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okay, I think killing people in afganistan is bad too, my bad.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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I find it both amusing and sad how the left bleeds all over themselves about the deaths of American servicemen and women. In truth, they don't care one whit. They despise the military just as much as they did during Vietnam. However, their behavior then was so repugnant, that they know they can't repeat it. Instead, they turn 180 and pretend the opposite. Spare me the false tears; it's Bush you're using these deaths against. It's your lever, your tool. Do you really think you're fooling anyone who's paid attention to your rubbish, lies and hypocracy for the last two generations. The only people who think this tactic works are the left. Your talking to yourselves. Give a hug to Jane Fonda; the country takes you as seriously as it does her.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Woody, by your standards, I'm far left of center. When you presume to tell me that I don't care about American soldiers' and their families' sacrifices, you're flat wrong. I don't hate Bush, anymore than I hate you. He's just a major part of what ails us, as are folks like yourself who empower his kind. You have every right to speak your drivel, but more and more people are realizing that's all it is.
Now with that rant out of the way, have fun and take care out on the rocks!
-AmicableButNotStupidJello
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Current scorecard
Deaths:
Americans of 9/11 = 2973
American Military Casualties in Iraq = 3090
Iraqi civilians = 60,000+
Iraqi militants = unknown
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Terror attacks on the Homeland since 9/11 = 0.
JDF
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Still no mention of how many American casualties in Afghanistan.
The reason we don't hear the numbers of American casualties in Afghanistan is because there is no political agenda the Left can advance by stating it.
To the Left, American casualties in Afghanistan are just not as important as those in Iraq. If they were, we would see just as many memorials to American Soldiers and Marines who died in Afghanistan as we do for those who died in Iraq.
And I have yet to see a single one.
Zero.
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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"We are not a news organization ourselves and like everyone else can only base our information on what has been reported so far. What we are attempting to provide is a credible compilation of civilian deaths that have been reported by recognized sources. Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths - which can only be a sample of true deaths unless one assumes that every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war."
This is the number of reported/confirmed kills listed on their website...as stated, far from comprehensive.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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HangerlessBolt writes:
"I'll research your question and post the information and resources here."
That's my point.
All you have to do to keep up on the number of Americans killed in Iraq is drive down the street and you're bound to pass a "scoreboard" gleefully tallying up the number for you. No "research" required. But these same folks choose to ignore the number of Americans killed in Afghanistan.
To the Left, a dead American Soldier or Marine is only worth keeping track of if they can use the death to advance their political agenda. Hence the conspicuous abscence of any public memorial for those Americans who sacrificed their lives in Afghanistan.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Prove me wrong, Mr Crowley.
Post up one picture of a public memorial dedicated to Americans who died fighting in Afghanistan.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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When they start shooting up our shopping malls and blowing up
Starbucks than AC will finally get it. Bush took the war to the enemy, I have to give him credit for that. God Bless him.
JDF
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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I mistook this for a moderately serious conversation based on the topic (having served USMC '91-'95). I see this is still a game to some folks...something to entertain themselves with.
Very well. As you were.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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chaz, interesting that you'd try to cherry pick the "original" secular progressive--PF-these are more apropos...
"To establish any mode to abolish war, however advantageous it might be to Nations, would be to take from such Government the most lucrative of its branches."
"“He who is the author of a war lets loose the whole contagion of hell and opens a vein that bleeds a nation to death”
I just don't get the feelin yer "world view" is anywhere near Tommy's...
The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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As long as we're keeping score by body count, how many Al queda have been killed? any? must be some. Weren't they, ostensibly, the enemy?
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andanother
climber
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Chaz and Woodie,
You guys are seriously f*#ked up in the head. To suggest that people are only protesting to further a political agenda is disgusting.
Humans are, by nature, compassionate towards one another. While it might not seem like it at times, this really is human nature. This is essential to any society. Without this characteristic, there would be no societies, countries, or even families.
This behavior is essential for survival of any species. It’s instinct. We protect and stand up for ourselves, our friends, our families, and the citizens of our country. If our comrades are being slaughtered unnecessarily, then it is human nature to try to stop this.
People are protesting the war because they think it is wrong. Plain and simple.
Your remarks give a glimpse into your twisted minds, and it ain't pretty. Political differences aside, you guys are horrible human beings.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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The left loves casualties. The more dead and maimed GIs, the more little, white crosses and the more crocodile tears. The greatest fear the left has is a serious fall in American deaths. The left always overplays their hand in their cynical and repulsive game. They're the vampires of the age trying to suck up as much false sentiment as they can to push their agenda.
I'm digusted by the way Bush has screwed up and failed pretty much across the board, and I doubt we will succeed in Iraq; but I refuse to ally myself with the same scum that denigrated our military in Vietnam. They've changed tactics, but they're the same two-faced hypocrits they were then.
You hate Bush, hate Bush; he's fair game. But don't use the dead in you feud. These people should all jump into the same petri dish with Jane. That's where they belong since they all share the same DNA.
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
hither and yon
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Wow. I'm sensing a little hostility in this thread.
Can't we all just get along?
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KyleO
Ice climber
Calgary, AB
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Woody,
You make me sick. Saying that a group of people love to see humanity die so that we can feel better about how the war is going.
This only shows your narrow-minded, ignorance of the world and the way it is being run.
I pity you. Open your eyes.
Kyle Oak
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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It's not a clash of civilizations, it's a clash of ideological idiots who want a clash of civilizations. I hope civilization eventually prevails over idiocy, but as long as there are people who support the terrorists on both sides we'll have this tragedy. Every value worth standing up for in the US has been trampled by Bush and his team of crazies, and every value worth standing up for in Islam has been trashed by their extremists. Both are defiling the values they supposedly stand for.
And don't post pictures of 911 as justifaction for more idiocy, that's like posting pictures of burn victims as an argument for arson. One of my good high-school friends might be in one of those pictures, don't try and play my friend's death as a card in this unbelievably sad and idiotic chapter of US/World history.
Go hippies, down with the crazies.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Gilwad,
Oh, don't play your friend's death as a card. I see the old double standard here. Not your friend but go hippies and their use of dead GIs. Like I said, hypocrits beyond belief. None of the dead should be used as propaganda, a simple concept.
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andanother
climber
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"None of the dead should be used as propaganda"
hypocrits beyond belief
Uh, Woody....
Oh. Nevermind. You wouldn't understand it anyway.
Thanks for the laugh, though.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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I want to see the Ouch treatment of the U-boat, Fat-wood.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2007 - 01:22pm PT
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"There will be a war with Iran, the europeans spent almost two years negotiating the nuclear issue with them and got nowhere. "
Goddammit fatty. They got nowhere because WE gave them no support and without assurances from US then there really isn't a whole lot to negotiate over.
This is like when Cheney leaked bad intel to the New York Times which then printed it and then Cheney could say "look, even the New York Times is saying the same thing!"
There will be a war only so long as WE create one. Fatty you are totally committed to this war and if people like you have anything to do with it it WILL happen. If they aren't then it WON'T. Stop acting like it is predertermined when your boys in the White House have to bend over backwards to make it happen. This is no different than calling the war with Iraq "inevitable." Look how hard they had to work to make that happen and they stand there and act like they had no other choice. They had no other choice because they had already chosen the one outcome they wanted! You are doing the exact same thing!
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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andanother--I'm impressed. You actually do have your own opinions and they're pretty damn good. Glad to see you're not wasting your thought processes on AC anymore...at least not on this thread (smile, smile).
Fattrad--"Woody, You and I will take care of the problem when we purchase the sub. We'll dress as pirates and say "Arghhh" often." Now that's some funny chit!!! I have to admit that when I read Woody's post, it makes YOU seem almost liberal. (Sorry matey, no insult meant. Back to the 3 monitors and 18 phone lines with you!!!)
Woody--For a guy whose crotch has a chicken head and gnarled yellow claws coming out of it (among other things), you seem to have lost the plot here. Didn't you read Jane's book? (I know--it's a stupid question.) She publicly admitted what a dumbass she was in her youth, and apologized in a big way to all the veterans and non-vets. And don't go saying you CAN'T forgive her--we've all done stupid things in our youth that someone somewhere DID forgive us for. And if we can be forgiven for being dumbasses in our youth, I think we should be able to accord the same to someone like Jane. The firey passions of youth have been an excuse for far greater acts of idiocy, trust me.
You might also want to consider the fact that there are lots of folks out there like Hangerlessbolt who DID serve in the military, who've earned the right accorded firsthand experience of war to speak about war, and he's saying killing people ain't the way. How else are you going to show war isn't a good thing unless you use body counts, number of wounded, lives destroyed, etc? You're incorporating mistakes made in the Vietnam Era into your present-day conversations, and a lot of that precedent just doesn't apply to the here and now.
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WBraun
climber
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I have to say also that is the best thing you've ever said here andanother. (That post to Chaz and Woody)
I'm impressed!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"I'm digusted by the way Bush has screwed up and failed pretty much across the board, and I doubt we will succeed in Iraq; but I refuse to ally myself with the same scum that denigrated our military in Vietnam. They've changed tactics, but they're the same two-faced hypocrits they were then. "
As someone who both served two years in Vietnam and protested on returning, I'd say only the hypocritical and ignorant were not opposed to the war. And for about the millionth time it has been said - opposing the war does not have to be synonomous with 'dinigrating our military'; and 'the military' is not necessarily 'our troops'. In both Vietnam and Iraq our senior military staff completely failed the nation. But given the hindsight of Vietnam, their failure in Iraq is all the more grevious in not standing up to an administration bent on an ill-advised and worse-concieved war. This president and our senior military staff have repeatedly failed our nation in this war, and worst of all, have completely failed our men and women in uniform by their lack of courage.
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dirtbag
climber
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"The reason we don't hear the numbers of American casualties in Afghanistan is because there is no political agenda the Left can advance by stating it.
To the Left, American casualties in Afghanistan are just not as important as those in Iraq. If they were, we would see just as many memorials to American Soldiers and Marines who died in Afghanistan as we do for those who died in Iraq.
And I have yet to see a single one.
Zero. "
Ah, bullshit Chaz. I actually think you and Woody post intelligent stuff: then you two post this kind of garbage? Maybe because to most people, including me, the US has a legitimate mission in Afghanistan in eliminating a strong al qaeda. The problem with Iraq is that we were fed a bunch of lies about it, and now we are paying dearly for it. Sorry to see you are still drinking that kool aid.
Juan apparently still thinks 9/11 and Iraq are connected. Fool.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I from the start knew 9/11 and Iraq were not connected.
I supported and do support war as a proactive preemptive deterrent.
We take the war to them, we kill them on their soil.
With no attacks on the Homeland since 9/11 the Bush Plan works.
Losing 5000 US troops is the price of doing business.
Its a whole new world, get used to our troops dying.
This is just the start.
If 20,000 US troops have to die each year to keep the Muslims at bay so be it.
JDF
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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Locker--Are you saying we just got trolled by an old guy in tights?????
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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" I from the start knew 9/11 and Iraq were not connected.
I supported and do support war as a proactive preemptive deterrent."
Kinda leaves us wide open, now, don't it? what about aggressive terrorists? Should we actually also do something about them?
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dirtbag
climber
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Then Juan, why post pics of people jumping out of the building?
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Woody, there's a world of difference between using photos of falling people as a justification for more horror, and saying, "Look, a lot of good people are dying, let's not add to the death count." Your comment saying that the left is doing the same thing as the right here is typical neo-con bullsh#t. When many of the best and brightest military and civilian minds agree that, "Iraq is not an effective solution to fighting terror," then we should listen and think critically, not just blindly support more destruction.
I support "the troops:" Let's get them out of the madness the US government has put them in. The troops are brave enough and loyal enough to do what the government asks, we need to be brave and loyal enough to say, "Really bad idea, let's not kill more of our troops in support of it."
Again, this is not a "clash of cilivations," it's a clash of fringe idiots dragging civilization down. I don't think anyone could argue Iraq is more civilized today than it was at the start of this madness, nor the US.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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American dead in Afganistan are the quiet dead; they can't be used by the left so they are ignored.
I clearly remember how the left wept and bled gallons of tears over civilian deaths in Vietnam...until we left. Then, hardly a peep about the butchering of a million plus Vietnamese by the Communists. There were a very few honest anti-war people who did protest, but very few.
Jane Fonda was a "dumbass kid". Jane Fonda knew what she was doing; she was an adult and a traitor. Protesting the war was within the traditions of our country--civil-disobedience; going over to the enemy the way she did wasn't and should have bought her the noose.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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JDF - I supported and do support war as a proactive preemptive deterrent.
That's funny. I imagine that's what Osama said on 9/10.
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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"We take the war to them, we kill them on their soil."
The long-term fallout from having killed tens of thousands of civilians cannot yet be measured. And beyond the Iraqi border, we have managed to burn what little good will the US enjoyed prior to this war.
It looks like Bush "outed" his Dad's cronies though his ineptitude. You can imagine how Cheney feels about "the kid" screwing up so royally whilst carrying out corporate America's war plan.
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Hey...Afghanistan takes the lead as the world's top producer of heroin, after the US overthrew the Taleban. Wonder if that was an added consideration by politicians invested in the drug trade?
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Things to do.
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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John--That was excellent!
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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'nother dam hippie poster...
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I say throw some bombs at the problem and maybe it will go away?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2007 - 08:10pm PT
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Fatty-
"Clinton cut a deal with the N. Koreans, I was all for it, of course Lil' Kim was cheating the entire time."
As I've stated multiple times in other threads after you say this exact same thing: WE WEREN'T ABIDING BY THE AGREEMENT EITHER!! Why? Congress refused to support it.
Thank you for continuing to demonstrate the EXTREMELY selective logic and rationale that has us "marching inevitably towards war."
Pretending it is inevitable is just an easy way to justify wanting to make it happen. Of course there is absolutely no evidence to show that it will work. The argument you and I are engaged in about Iran is virtually identical in every way to the one preceding war with Iraq. I'm not sure if you have been paying attention but that one didn't turn out too well.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Of all the disgusting insults in all the world, Locker said I wear tights. I don't wear tights. You lead tomorrow Locker, and I've got just the route.
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L
climber
The City of Lost Angels
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Woody,
We've got the proof in those lovely photos Locker posted. You're in tights compadre...sheer...figure-huggin'...no-need-for-guessin' tights!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Somewhat OT, but too funny to pass up;
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Zippy - always brilliant!
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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you know A...., with respect to JDF, he's either really delusional or a total troll. Either way, why bother? Same goes for a few of the other obvious.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2007 - 12:15pm PT
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Because A is a troll too!
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couchmaster
climber
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Interesting discourse. 8 years back and yet still current and topical. Several posters entire material was wiped out when they were tossed off the site, thus making the reply's to Crowley and Fattrad kind of ...hmmm, stilted and strange.
Woody Stark and John Bacher are sadly no longer with us as well. Maybe some other folks as well.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nature got trolled by Juan? Ho, man, that makes my day!
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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I remember that photo of the chickenhead coming outta Woody's shorts.
I remember that photo of Woody in Tights.
I remember laughing till I couldn't breathe.
I hate to get all maudlin and nostalgic, but damn, those were the days, my friend...
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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I did?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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I say throw some bombs at the problem and maybe it will go away?
Only if the bombs are big enough
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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War didn't work then, and won't work now. . .
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