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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 17, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
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I dunno about the idea of seeing society 'fundamentally transformed', but I do think this society is a long way from being as good as it could be. Why settle for less?
I think the problem isn't that the posters above are against making things better, but rather that they are -- rightfully -- worried that people calling for fundamental transformation of current society don't understand the law of unintended consequences.
As one of them said, "trim tabs, but don't yank on the rudder." Or, as I would put it, if you try to make a big freight train take a hard right (or left) turn, all you'll get is derailment.
Yes, there is plenty that could be changed for the better, but given that things are not really bad, incremental change is better than revolution.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 17, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
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"incremental change is better than revolution."
Unfortunately, the loudest voices on the left advocate for upending everything, and the loudest voices on the right advocate no change at all (or seemingly, regression).
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 17, 2018 - 09:50pm PT
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Unfortunately, the loudest voices on the left advocate for upending everything, and the loudest voices on the right advocate no change at all (or seemingly, regression).
It's actually the other way around. Trump got elected because he promised to upend the apple cart and drain the swamp. Starting 40 years ago the right decided to upend the New Deal, and they have succeeded.
As for the left, there is no left in this country.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Nov 17, 2018 - 10:27pm PT
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I dunno about the idea of seeing society 'fundamentally transformed', but I do think this society is a long way from being as good as it could be. Why settle for less?
Because most of the prescriptions being offered are worse than the condition.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 17, 2018 - 10:36pm PT
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Status quo of many of the problems in our society is not acceptable either, Lituya.
Those who vocally resist or denounce change invite conflict from those who see obvious, inarguable problems in our society. I suspect that offerings of changes that involve any kind of solution...even if the process is incremental...would go a long way towards gaining broad support.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Nov 17, 2018 - 11:01pm PT
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status quo also WILL NOT WORK for our children and definitely not for their children.
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 18, 2018 - 06:36am PT
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Too general of a statement to discuss.
What issues should be tackedled incrementally and what should be tackled radically?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 18, 2018 - 07:17am PT
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Too general of a statement to discuss.
What issues should be tackled incrementally and what should be tackled radically?
What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans? What would you recommend to improve those issues?
For me:
End Political divide - No clue. Maybe corporate, religious and social leaders get together and negotiate a plan to unite this country. Then tell the politicians to play ball.
Top issues:
End the polemic rhetoric. quit catering to the fringes.
Enact law overturning Citizens United.
End gerrymandering. non-partisan districts/boundaries, nationwide.
Low wages Incrementally raise minimum wages to a reasonable level. Maybe $20/hr by 2028. Partial increases for workers under age 21.
Illegal immigration - Fix the damn problem and then obey the laws. Dreamers get a shot at citizenship. Illegals register with the government. Allowed to obtain green card, with strict rules for maintaining green card status. Allowed to apply for citizenship. In the back of the line. End chain migration. Seal the border. Penalized governments providing sanctuary.
Affordable healthcare - Obamacare was a good, but flawed, step in the right direction. Don't repeal it. Fix it!
Environment - Continue to raise CAFE standards. Harsher rules for polluters - can you say coal ash spill? Raise fuel taxes 20 cents/yr for five hears. Two thirds for infrastructure. Remainder for green energy.
Guns - Register all guns. Required gun safety course certification. Additional training and background checks for "collectors". Get rid of semi-automatic weapons. Criminalize possession of converted semiautomatics.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 18, 2018 - 07:18am PT
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An easy, obvious one that needs a radical change:
Quality of national leadership. One can implement many of the policies of the current administration without being a leader who acts like a d#@&%ebag to almost anyone.
Of course, Americans get the leadership they vote for, and apparently there are plenty who actually like and respect this style of leadership. That's much more of a reflection on us and the society we all participate in.
Edit:
That's a very good list, Edward...I can get behind much/most of it.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 18, 2018 - 07:26am PT
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EdwardT, I agree with almost everything you wrote.
EdwardT/Norton 2020!
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 18, 2018 - 07:31am PT
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The kind of person who can beat Trump and unite the nation is someone who would/can avoid going toe to toe with him. In 2016, we kept looking for someone to put him in his place. It didn't and it's not gonna happen. He's too skilled a trash talker. It needs to be someone who's not gonna play his games. The best example I can think of is Barack Obama. His '08 campaign was mostly positive. Hope and Change. Not sure which prospective candidate fits the bill. Less sure if such a person would win the nomination.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Nov 18, 2018 - 07:36am PT
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Barack Obama. His '08 campaign was mostly positive. Hope and Change. Not sure which prospective candidate fits the bill. If only there was another Obama...
Michelle 2020
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 18, 2018 - 07:44am PT
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The same Michelle who just said:
Back in '08, "there were people who didn't know what a black woman looked and sounded like"?
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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Nov 18, 2018 - 07:48am PT
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Orange Country, California, one of THE most republican counties in the US
goes 100% Democrat in every single Congressional District
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 18, 2018 - 07:50am PT
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I think the healthcare issue is one that needs more of a radical change than incremental- the underlying weakness in it as it stands (and the ACA only perpetuates) is the profit-driven way it operates with insurance companies as middle man. The ACA doesn't really address this at all.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Nov 18, 2018 - 07:51am PT
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The same Michelle who just said:
Back in '08, "there were people who didn't know what a black woman looked and sounded like"? yes that one. I'm confused, is that statement bad in some way that I'm not getting?
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Nov 18, 2018 - 08:14am PT
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I am curious why guns are the issue the left makes them out to be...
Crime, violent and otherwise have never been lower. We live in the safest society in the history of the world.
And yet, the media drives us into a frenzy to blame an inanimate object for an imagined fear.
No other inanimate object is blamed when there is a perceived wrong...
I wonder why that is? Could it involve power of the governed vs. the governing?
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Nov 18, 2018 - 08:22am PT
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EdwardT, I agree with almost everything you wrote.
me too, amazing.
The kind of person who can beat Trump and unite the nation is someone who would/can avoid going toe to toe with him.
not as sure on this one.
I think that if someone went toe to toe with him, and questioned his reasoning, even trump's supporters might take a step back.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nov 18, 2018 - 08:26am PT
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:48am PT
Orange Country, California, one of THE most republican counties in the US
goes 100% Democrat in every single Congressional District
That Blue Wave was kind of a nice swell.
Compared to Clinton's and Obama's first midterm, this election was MEH.
Clinton lost 8 in the Senate and 54 in the House.
Obama lost 6 and 63. Highest loss of a party in a House midterm election since 1938, and the largest House swing since 1948.
Trump lost 40 House seats. Significantly less than Clinton and Obama. And he gained in the Senate.
Looking back at all the anti-Trump anger we've seen over the last two years, it appears that moderate Americans aren't as concerned about Trump as we're led to believe.
Elections are the only polls that really matter.
Edit: Your graphic implies Orange County overwhelming supported Trump in 2016, even though Hillary received more votes. Hmm.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Nov 18, 2018 - 08:44am PT
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EdwardT, you need to take into account the significant gerrymandering that went on in 2010. That was at least partly responsible to the big GOP gains during the Obama term, and the Dem gains this year were in spite of that.
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