2018 Elections update.

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Messages 1 - 751 of total 751 in this topic
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 6, 2018 - 07:11pm PT
Heidi & I have been watching national election news on NBC & PBS.

NBC claims to be very conservative on their projected winners, but so far it looks like the Republicans will retain the Senate, & Democrats may grab the majority in the U.S. House of Representatives.

As the NBC chances of Democrats gaining the majority in the House moved up to 80%, I muttered I wouldn't believe they could achieve that, until NBC said a 95% chance.

As of 8:00 PM tonight, NBC has the Democrat chances of grabing the majority in the House at 95%.

Sigh....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
NBC...? What do the Inukshuks predict...?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
yeah ized, not like the politcks,
&
it sucks that I can't just talk about being a good Yo-Yo all the time.

Why not post youre trashy climbing porn here as a protest against thinking?

Mnt young ?
grow up

Or lets play a game : Pick 6 numbers, place "[photoid=" in front of them & add a "]", I like to roll the dice 3 times - here I'll start with 299011, 311207, & 409402, many times you pull a "gak" that little guy holding the sign say no picture anymore.

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
I really enjoy the political threads here. Thanks for starting this Fritz.

Two earlier threads that were discussing politics were "locked" by the site administrators. Very, very disappointing.

I'm holding back on some climbing content that I was going to post and I'm seriously considering dropping out of the Supertopo community. It's their site and they can do what they want. And if they continue f---ing it up, I'll do what I want.

Leave it alone guys, please?
jstan

climber
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:38pm PT
And if they continue f---ing it up, I'll do what I want.

At last! An ultimatum.
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:41pm PT
i used to could detect irony real good ^^^

the house will now check the exec. that's alright, right? worth noting even.

regular order restored
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
I really enjoy the political threads here. Thanks for starting this Fritz.

Two earlier threads that were discussing politics were "locked" by the site administrators. Very, very disappointing.

I'm holding back on some climbing content that I was going to post and I'm seriously considering dropping out of the Supertopo community. It's their site and they can do what they want. And if they continue f---ing it up, I'll do what I want.

Leave it alone guys, please?

Please start the Climber's Propane Campfire (Forum)! Give everyone five days to edit/delete their post, and then it's history. No smoke in your eyes and restriction proof.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
Phuck. Now Apogee's bailed.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
Nah, I just tossed my last comments 'cuz they were just noise. I'm still around.
jstan

climber
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:54pm PT
We need a bail-o-meter thread.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
Anyway, not surprisingly, the much-ballyhooed 'blue wave' doesn't sound like it's amounted to much. Still, I'm quite happy to see that the Dems are on track to take back the House. That should stop some of the bleeding, anyway.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
oh my - well this has been fun....
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
ST's forum appears to be open for wide discussion, per this Mirriam-Webster definition:


Definition of forum


1a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business


b : a public meeting place for open discussion
//The club provides a forum for people interested in local history.


c : a medium (such as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas


2 : a judicial body or assembly : court


3a : a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion
//The town has scheduled a public forum to discuss the proposal.


b : a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forum
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:04pm PT
Fox, NBC and CNN projects the dems taking the house.

It's still a blue wave, just not a blue tsunami.
jstan

climber
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:13pm PT
I think there has been a moosewave.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
RJ! Re your question:

What do the Inukshuks predict...?


The Inukshuks don't get involved in politics or much else, but they are still celebrating Halloween.

ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:22pm PT
Anybody know what's up for Montana? Rosendale or Tester? Gianforte or Williams? The body slammer or intelligence? Farmer or Trumps puppet?

Arne
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:26pm PT
I really enjoy the political threads here.

I do too. Injuries prevent me from climbing anymore so my entertainment comes from these threads.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:27pm PT
How are we doing, Moose?

https://www.gofundme.com/bernadette-regan

For your future needs....
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:32pm PT
The Inukshuks don't get involved in politics or much else, but they are still celebrating Halloween.

Fie on your false inukshuks! May they be forever covered in lichen.

The One True Inukshuk, servant of the Mighty Odin, has spoken, and from me you shall be given his words: "Regardless of what puny mortal receives the most votes from other puny mortals, the TIME OF ODIN approaches."

Tremble at the thought of him, puny Americans.

10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
one good thing, no more wall.

cosmic is still as ignorant as he ever was.
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Nov 6, 2018 - 09:04pm PT
Thanks to all who voted! You made a difference!

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2018 - 09:23pm PT
It could have been worse ----- or better.

Democrats gaining control of the U.S. House of Representatives will likely help keep Trump from increasing his swamp for the next two years.

More importantly, it appears that Trump has inspired Democrats to retake key State governor's & other state political positions.

Woohoo!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2018 - 09:31pm PT
Well, Moose, the Dems didn't get the 2/3, but they have enough of a majority to help put the brakes on the stoooooopidity of the last two years. That's good enough for me.

And I'll match your $50 to Bernadette. It's the least we can do.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
Looks like the Red State Dems got ousted. Not surprising, and probably for the best. Splitting the baby is never a good idea.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Nov 6, 2018 - 09:49pm PT
Atheists for SATAN!!!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 6, 2018 - 11:53pm PT
Nothin' but net!
Continues to underperform in the Golden State.

You're in BIG hands with Gavin.

i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 7, 2018 - 12:15am PT
tester is down by .7% with 75% in. Not sure how recounts, etc work in mt
dirtbag

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 03:32am PT
All I can say is “whew.”

We might get through this yet.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 05:27am PT
monolith

climber
state of being

Nov 6, 2018 - 07:39pm PT
The thread 'Midterms Tomorrow', got locked.
The thread 'Issues Affecting Americans', got locked.

WTF? 'Issues Affecting Americans' remained civil. A far cry from most political threads.

Ours is not to reason why...
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:02am PT
brad mehldau trio ~ seymour reads the constitution: http://youtu.be/WGE3v6QfDV0 [Click to View YouTube Video]
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:06am PT
Katie Hill in a nail-biter of a race, up about 50 votes out of >70k cast, with 30% reporting.

looks like Katie won with 100% reporting.
Hill: 51.7
Knight:48.3

looks like Rohrabacher lost with 100% reporting.
Rouda: 50.7
Rohrabacher: 49.3
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:12am PT
Colorado has their first, first man? Legal weed? When did Colorado become California?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:17am PT
Well, that would be a total embarrassment for Calif-whornia, JC.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:36am PT
Colorado just needs a big ditch, some climbing, and it will be o.k. No use in envying the ocean, in the end, she'll draw you in and show you the worth of salted tears.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:48am PT
Year of the Great Rebuke

Youngest congresswoman elected (a Latina);
first African-American congresswoman from Mass;
first Muslim congresswomen;
first openly gay governor;
first Native American congresswoman;
first female Gov from Maine;
first congresswoman from Iowa;
first black congresswoman from CT;
first Latina congresswomen from Texas;
millions of folks got their right to vote back in Florida!
And oversight of this corrupt and racist administration
with the Dem win of the House of Representatives!

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:12am PT
In the past, I've generally supported CMac & co's apparent policy towards political threads...at least what seemed to be the policy, without much direct communication from them about what it actually is...

But on another hand, I just don't get it, either. There are endless OT threads here that have little or nothing directly to do with climbing, and they live on and on and on. Why do politics get singled out as the one topic that is off-limits? Even when the dialogue remains respectful and civil?

And it is more than clear that political discussions aren't going to end by locking a thread...they'll just pop up in another thread. If CMac & co really want to see this end, why don't they simply whack the most regular participants (yes, myself included)?
WBraun

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:22am PT
If you studied What is Mind then you would have answer.

Instead, you remain clueless ....
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:31am PT
Thanks, GLillegard...I did not see that thread from 2015.

I get the gist of the policy, and support what they are trying to accomplish, but it also seems like an unrealistic expectation. Politics matter to climbers, as do the wide variety of other OT threads that are all over ST. From the above statement:

"Hopefully freezing threads that devolve into personal attacks will help with an ongoing effort to keep the forum a friendly and informative resource for climbers of all ages and interests."

If it's simply about negative discourse, that makes perfect sense to me, however if a thread can remain civil and appropriate....no matter what the topic area is...why whack it?


I don't expect anything to change positing these thoughts. Just my impression.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:33am PT
If only they would clearly explain the rules

and fix the member to member communication link.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:38am PT
There was the catch all "Why Republicans Are Wrong About Everything" thread which was doing a good job of keeping politics quarantined right there. Getting rid of that was a mistake.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:44am PT
I don't think the member to member email is "not fixed". I think they fixed it by dismantling the feature. Wish they'd restore it though. Were members frightened somebody might email them? Oh my!

C'mon Tester! Still behind by a sliver.

Arne
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:55am PT
All of this said, there is an annoying tendency for multiple political threads to be present on the 'front page' of ST- that's definitely not in the primary interest of this site. Combine that tendency, along with some of the negative discourse that comes from some contributors, and that seems like plenty of rationale to single out politics.

Oh, that we as a community could truly self-regulate.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:59am PT
Oh, that we as a community could truly self-regulate.

Kinda along the lines of what high school Lotharios tell their sweethearts?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:03am PT
The other political threads are gone.

Let's move on.

Congrats to the Dems for regaining the House. Pelosi has said NO to impeachment. Good for her.

Now that the mid terms are over, Mueller should be making some announcements.

What's next???
dirtbag

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:08am PT
^^^Mr. Stone
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:12am PT
"Now that the mid terms are over, Mueller should be making some announcements."


Glad to hear Pelosi is backing off on the impeachment thing, though I hope investigations of both Trump & Kavanaugh continue, and if anything turns up, I'd have no problem with a change of mind.

I'm not overly optimistic that Mueller's report is going to contain any kind of smoking gun, and it's quite possible it won't be publicly released at all. Still, it's sure to contain some good stuff, and will at the very least provide more evidence of the fact that Trump is as much of a d#@&%e as any reasonably intelligent person knows that he is.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:15am PT
Donald Trump Jr. Expecting to Be Indicted by Mueller Soon
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:17am PT
Nunez loses his chairmanship of the intelligence committee (oxymoron much?) so he will not be able to provide cover for Trump. So sad, maybe we will see some people being held accountable.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:37am PT
I hope investigations of ... Kavanaugh continue

The Senate Judiciary Committee released its final report on the Brett Kavanaugh investigation, finding “no verifiable evidence” of sexual misconduct.

Investigators spoke to 45 different people and took 25 statements about allegations made by two of Kavanaugh’s accusers, Christine Blasey Ford and Deborah Ramirez.

The Committee tweeted Saturday no evidence was found to “substantiate or corroborate” either of their claims.

What else needs to be done?

Have any Dems on the Judiciary Committee refuted the report?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:40am PT
Yeah, I just matched your donation a few minutes ago, Moose. Happy to see that the ST polititard discussions are providing assistance to someone who really deserves it.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:40am PT
What else needs to be done?

a good start would be to subpoena the 100,000 pages of Kavanaugh documents the White House refused to release. What is there to worry about?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:43am PT
Edward, the 'investigation' that was done was so quick, limited by the WH in scope, and obviously aimed at convincing Flake, Murkowski & Collins to approve, that there should be no surprise that there were 'no findings'. These were serious accusations, that deserve due diligence. That didn't happen by a long stretch in the hearings.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2018 - 09:55am PT
I knew that in the Idaho governor's race, an articulate, tall, good looking, Native American woman Democrat, stood little chance against an old white guy rancher, career politician, conservative Republican.

Brad Little beat Paulette Jordan 59.5% to 38.5%, which is not as bad as predicted.



SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:14am PT
Hi all. Not much to add. I voted everywhere I could. Well it was just one place.

Susan
chipper_shredder

Social climber
outinthecuts
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:26am PT
I said this years ago, and ima say it again directly to the moderators / Cmac
& I dont like to have to use caps but...,

DRAW AN F-ING LINE THROUGH THE MIDDLE OF THE FORUM

Climbing & TR content on top, ALL off topic content below, f-IING F. Man !
Folks having to piss on political posts " what does this have to do w climbing " ?
While all you are doing is bumping the thread to the top ?????

Lets face facts, TACO & Cmac benifit hugely for site traffic

Political threads don't bother me one bit, obviously since I've posted some.
there is more to life than climbing
Folk who for some reason need to hone in on political threads, then post political ostrich
Replys and noise boggles me, while cool cars, ark on the moon & endless RIP threads are just as not climbing related go unpissed on

Banner ads bother me more, if you ask me.

Rant off

We all should be out outraged about the obscene money
Spent on the election

-Repeal citizens united

-Pass term limits for all reps & senetors

Can we please get back to realizing 80% of those in power
Yes, on both sides are either corrupt or enept, or both.


Trump

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:29am PT
More importantly, it appears that Trump has inspired Democrats to retake key State governor's & other state political positions.

I definitely prefer that to Obama inspiring the Republicans to take back the Presidency and the Supreme Court by electing Trump.

What goes around comes around, unfortunately for us tribal partisans, and fortunately for us tribal partisans. If only our tribe could be a little more partisan, we might be able to inspire a grander backlash on their part next time, and then we’d have them right where we want them!

That, or extinct.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:32am PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Nov 7, 2018 - 09:43am PT
Edward, the 'investigation' that was done was so quick, limited by the WH in scope, and obviously aimed at convincing Flake, Murkowski & Collins to approve, that there should be no surprise that there were 'no findings'. These were serious accusations, that deserve due diligence. That didn't happen by a long stretch in the hearings.

The investigation concluded last week. Not sure how Flake, Murkowski & Collins play into it.
Happy Cowboy

Social climber
Boz MT
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:34am PT
Woohoo, big Jon Tester just announced victory 20 minutes ago in Montana!!!!!
He held his senate seat against huge odds, a true statesman and unique honest guy.
What news to learn on return from the first good skiing of season. Hyalite was beautiful.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:40am PT
Flake, Murkowski and Collins were under tremendous pressure (from both directions) in those Hearings- they needed to be able to point at something that would allow them to publicly justify their decision to approve Kavanaugh. McConnell knew this very well, so he allowed Flake's request for an 'investigation', knowing there would be very strict limitations on it's scope and timeframe.

This gave Flake & Collins enough political cover to approve Kavanaugh, even if the 'investigation' was effectively a shallow sham.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:43am PT
Sorry to learn of the loss of Paulette Jordan. She is still young and life is long.

As usual, Moscow, Boise and Sun Valley love her. Apparently a big following in Driggs as well.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/06/us/elections/results-idaho-elections.html

Idaho politics as boring and predictable as Califonia only on opposite poles.


EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:47am PT
Apogee - There was a more substantial investigation that concluded last week.

Investigators spoke to 45 different people and took 25 statements about allegations made by two of Kavanaugh’s accusers, Christine Blasey Ford and Deborah Ramirez.

The Committee tweeted Saturday no evidence was found to “substantiate or corroborate” either of their claims.

No one backed Ford's story.

It wasn't really given much coverage in the MSM. What a surprise.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:47am PT
Discussing Politics on this form where most of us are friends and longtime chatters is totally legit. Its a community.

I truely care about what the people here thing on many topics and I listen to both sides.

Also, this forum is a legitimate mind within itself. It has such authority that it is occasionally sited by major media outlets.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:47am PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:48am PT
Have we been saved? At least when the Titanic went down it was calm.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:50am PT
Ed T may be dense, but probably not *that* dense.


"not sure why crux folks voting on confirmation to the high court may be target audience of investigation into nominee's alleged pattern of sexual abuse".



cool.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:53am PT
oh yeah, hooray! the millionaire won CO Gov seat. Which millionaire?


does it matter, in the grand scheme of .....?




nope. no matters at all, sorta like that stupid azz setback measure.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:57am PT
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places

Nov 7, 2018 - 10:50am PT
Ed T may be dense, but probably not *that* dense.


"not sure why crux folks voting on confirmation to the high court may be target audience of investigation into nominee's alleged pattern of sexual abuse".

cool.

How random
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:09am PT
No wonder these threads get locked. SIMMER DOWN.


I guess it was just a smurfy wave, and the market is up!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2018 - 11:13am PT
I'm glad to see Tester held his Montana Senate seat. I thought he had a good chance & I actually donated to his campaign, which is the only one I donated to.

Trump really hates Tester, so Tester being in the Senate again should piss Trump off. Good!
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:17am PT
If the market ever goes down and stays down we are all cooked, except for the few living in small cohesive groups growing and/or hunting their own food with no assistance from petroleum or metallurgy.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:30am PT
I try not to get too sucked into what's happening, despite it's significance. Just kind of stressful given the potential direction the country could head.

Looking at some of the very close races or those that are yet undecided, I've noticed at least a couple where an independent picked up enough of margin to have put the challenging democrat over the top (e.g., Arizona and Maine). After the debacle of Ralph Nader and the razor thin margins in many hot districts, how can people actually believe that a vote for an independent is anything but a vote for the republican candidate? I don't get it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:31am PT
No, I didn’t notice that in either of the sources I frequent these days...Politico and National Review (MSM? Hmmm....)

Mind sharing a link to that source, Edward?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:34am PT
Democracy is about balance of power and I for one am happy that may have been achieved.


Peace
Happy Cowboy

Social climber
Boz MT
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:36am PT
Trump personally pinned the target on Jon Tester’s back after fighting his VA pick Ronny Jackson ( whose investigation goes on):
4 visits by Trump
Double that by Don jr.
3 visits by Pence, and more.

Tester finished by say “I learned long ago that Montana does not vote party, they vote people”
So glad it worked for him.

I’ve voted in SW Montana for 20 some elections, this was close.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:46am PT
I was glad to see Walker lost in WI, which is my home state.

Heard the other day that his big FoxConn project, where he gave $$$$$ incentives, and which was sold as bringing thousands of good jobs to local Wisconsin people seems to have changed horses midstream. Instead of manufacturing, now the focus will be engineering, and since Racine is not a place that has a populous engineer base, and is not going to have engineers lining up to relocate to, they will be bringing in Chinese (men) to fill the jobs. I sincerely DOUBT the Foxconn folks didn't know damned well what the strategy was the whole time. So, stupid Walker gave away the money to bring in a corporation that will ultimately provide only a smattering of low-wage jobs for the support of those engineers(cleaning and such).

Here in upstate NY, we have elected Delgado to Congress, and plenty of other Democrats for NY, which makes me happy, obviously.

I am thinking that it is GOOD that neoterh GOP nor Dem have gotten an a$$-whipping. The last thing we need is gloating and anger. Maybe now we regular people can start to heal from the Trump Malaise that has been sickening our country for the last two years, and again see each other as friends, neighbors and actual people instead of "them."
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:52am PT
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 12:06pm PT
Mind sharing a link to that source, Edward?

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2018-11-02%20Kavanaugh%20Report.pdf


Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Nov 7, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
I hear ya Happy Cowpoke!

I heard the 'bad' news about our potential senate choice on the news at home. Rode to work and promptly got on a 3.5 hour conf call. On my way to the fridge I ran into a co-worker that was all giddy and she whispered "Tester" in my ear in the hallway.

We still have our violent east coast rep and ya know, he is just some folks' kinda guy.
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:01pm PT
Looks like a climber will be going to the House. Katie Hill is expected to win the California 25th District. Go Katie and I hope to come visit you next year to talk about California and nationwide climber issues! Unfortunately, in my district I have to endure two more years of the chief Trump brownnoser Nunes. Janz and his campaign put up a great campaign to counter him, but it was not enough.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:06pm PT
Now that Nunes can no longer be Trump’s protector, maybe he can be our congressman
BY MAREK WARSZAWSKI
marekw@fresnobee.com
November 06, 2018 10:53 PM
https://www.fresnobee.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/marek-warszawski/article221171890.html

Congratulations to Devin Nunes on his re-election. Congratulations mixed with condolences. Because his days as a powerful and influential congressman are over.

Even though Nunes defeated challenger Andrew Janz to retain his District 22 seat, he was also among the biggest losers in Tuesday’s midterm elections.

The Republicans are no longer the majority party in the House of Representatives, meaning Nunes must brace himself for his reduced place in the new pecking order.

Our local congressman’s power on Capitol Hill, as described by Fresno State political science professor Thomas Holyoke, “will be greatly diminished.”
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:10pm PT
I would not hold my breath on the notion that he will now be my congressperson. He is a complete no show in the district, which is why that article was so on point.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:24pm PT
How the hell do congressman stay in office with a record like that? I know Clovis is verrrry conservative, but you'd think after enough local outcry about the fact Nunes seems to have little interest in his own district, that he'd pay some attention.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:29pm PT
Sessions ousted
Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker will take over supervising Mueller’s Russia probe.

By DARREN SAMUELSOHN and CAITLIN OPRYSKO 11/07/2018 02:50 PM EST Updated 11/07/2018 04:09 PM EST
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/07/jeff-sessions-out-as-attorney-general-972776

Attorney General Jeff Sessions resigned at President Donald Trump’s request on Wednesday, ending a tumultuous tenure marked by repeated public humiliations and raising new questions about the fate of special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation.

Word of the Justice Department leader’s ouster came via a Twitter post from Trump, who thanked the former Alabama senator for his service and announced that Sessions’ chief of staff, Matthew Whitaker, would take over in an acting capacity.

Trump added that a permanent replacement would be nominated “at a later date.”

While the change atop DOJ doesn’t affect Rod Rosenstein, the embattled deputy attorney general who has been supervising Mueller’s probe into the Trump 2016 campaign and Russian hackers, it does mean Rosenstein will no longer oversee the special counsel's work.

Rosenstein was only overseeing the probe because Sessions had recused himself from any involvement with the special counsel, and a DOJ spokesperson indicated Wednesday that Whitaker would take over "all matters under the purview of the Department of Justice," including the Mueller probe.



How'd you like to learn that you are going be fired by a tweet from your boss?

No doubt Whitaker was carefully interviewed to be sure that he wouldn't do anything ethical like recuse himself from the Mueller investigation, the way Sessions did. Gotta give the guy that much credit, anyway.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:45pm PT
“How does a congressman with a record like that stay in office?”

I can believe it,here in the 27th district of NY ,our congressman is indicted with 11 felonies and won re -election by just 1%.


Man.......


Good to see Montucky go blue.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
Trump really hates Tester, so Tester being in the Senate again should piss Trump off. Good!

Three trips to Montana, and he still couldn't beat Tester.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:05pm PT
Sorry to learn of the loss of Paulette Jordan. She is still young and life is long.

As usual, Moscow, Boise and Sun Valley love her. Apparently a big following in Driggs as well.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/06/us/elections/results-idaho-elections.html

Idaho politics as boring and predictable as Califonia only on opposite poles.

Idaho has a substantial population of mormons(or it did), and a substantial population of ex LAPD cops, in the panhandle.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:43pm PT
anyone else here care to add to the chalkboard list of the governed by millionaires club list?

1. colorado
Bargainhunter

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:59pm PT
Idaho has a substantial population of mormons(or it did), and a substantial population of ex LAPD cops, in the panhandle.

Funny, I once hitchhiked from Berkeley, CA to Jackson Hole, Wy. One of my rides was from a Highway Patrolman in Idaho in his service vehicle. He was a former cop from CA, and told me it was illegal to hitch-hike where I was standing, so he gave me a ride to next town. Before I got in the front passenger seat, he asked if I had any weapons. I told him that I had a Swiss army knife on me. He shrugged and said get in. Cool, friendly guy.
ß Î Ř T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:21pm PT
^^ [Click to View YouTube Video]
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 8, 2018 - 06:43am PT
Washington (AP) -- Eighty-five-year-old Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg fractured three ribs in a fall in her office at the Supreme Court and is in the hospital, the court said Thursday.

The court's oldest justice fell Wednesday evening, the court said. She went to George Washington University Hospital in Washington early Thursday after experiencing discomfort overnight.

She was admitted to the hospital for treatment and observation after tests showed she fractured three ribs.

In her absence, the court was going ahead Thursday with a courtroom ceremony welcoming new Justice Brett Kavanaugh, who joined the court last month.

Hang in there, Justice Ginsberg.
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
Nov 8, 2018 - 06:56am PT
Gonna love the grimace on Pence's face when he swears in two of these women while holding the Qur'an....

10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 8, 2018 - 07:41am PT
Gonna love the grimace on Pence's face when he swears in two of these women while holding the Qur'an....

not to mention that a few of the women are gay, or bisexual.
oh the humanity.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2018 - 08:05am PT
Hang in there, Ginsburg, indeed. This is a hard-as-nails woman who is going to stay in there until she simply can't function any longer. Then Trump's new Senate will steamroll another Justice on America to directly impact us all of the rest of our lives.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:08am PT
Gonna love the grimace on Pence's face when he swears in two of these women while holding the Qur'an....
Pence will bring his wife, threesomes only for Mikey. Then they will prey.
Jkruse

climber
Las Cruces, NM
Nov 8, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
It was a good result here in New Mexico, turned the whole state blue. Flipped governor and a congressional seat in a GOP stronghold district. The gubernatorial race was a pretty sure bet, but CD2 was definitely not. We are talking all of southern NM, which as you can imagine is mostly conservative god fearing rancher types who are not what you would call progressive by any stretch of imagination. Well, lo and behold 33 year old water rights attorney Xochitl Torres Small got the job done. It came way down to the wire, with the election being decided by a final count of absentee and provisional ballots from our district's one "blue" precinct. I could hardly believe it when I saw the result. Kind of added to my enjoyment that her opponent had already delivered a victory speech, praising god and everything. That's my bit of good news for the week.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 8, 2018 - 03:33pm PT
Jkruse, being in Albuquerque I was paying close attention too, good news!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 8, 2018 - 03:53pm PT
So,the POTUS has hired a sympathetic AG,has threatened the opposing party as to trying to investigate him and has not answered what kind of nationalist he is.

Even revoked press credentials.

All good aye.

Even controls the military.

Great,Again.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 8, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
^^^he is a crackpot.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/matthew-whitaker-is-a-crackpot/2018/11/08/69e8e190-e395-11e8-8f5f-a55347f48762_story.html?utm_term=.4ba50e1dc1df
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
Saturday Night Massacre (Extended Play)
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
he is a crackpot.


that cannot be true!

Donald said he would first Drain the Swamp and then appoint only the Best and Brightest ....
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
Yawn.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:30pm PT
Yes ,it is a bit much.

Can you say lame duck or coup?
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:31pm PT
I went climbing all day and the Senate race in Arizona is going in favor of the Democrat? I should go climbing all day more often!!

Am I seeing the news correctly?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
Coincidence?

Correlation?

Better go climbing TOMORROW, just to be safe.

Edited for clarity.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:44pm PT

Coincidence?

Correlation?

Better go climbing, just to be safe.

Too dark right now and I'm hungry ;)
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
Can you say lame duck or coup?

Yawn.

Stretch.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 8, 2018 - 06:26pm PT
I have not stretched anything really.

It is going to be fun watching him go down in flames.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 8, 2018 - 08:03pm PT
Trump? Lame duck?

Is that before or after he seats a couple of new SCOTUS justices?

When is his querencia phase gonna start? 😂😂😂
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
For the sake of McCain’s memory, I hope to hell that Sinema prevails.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 8, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
Am I seeing the news correctly?

last I saw, Cristin Sinema(the dem) was ahead.

so let me get this straight, trump campaigned in Montana, and Nevada, and his candidates still lost.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:03pm PT
There are still a lot of ballots to be counted in Arizona, and many of them are in Maricopa County, where Phoenix lies...this is Sinema’s district. Still, the vote has swayed back and forth between Sinema and McSally.

Anyone wanna bet on which candidate McCain would back?
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:12pm PT
Anyone wanna bet on which candidate McCain would back?

Good question. I was watching the election coverage on ABC tuesday night . Megan McCain was on there, and she said she is not a Sinema fan.
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
Brad,

Go climbing every day, all day and politics should all be good.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:21pm PT

Brad,

Go climbing every day, all day and politics should all be good.

I'd be happy to. But there's that one little catch about being able to eat and pay bills.

On the other hand, perhaps you'd be willing to support me and the family so I can go climbing more? In the style to which we'd like to become accustomed, of course ;)
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 09:40pm PT
10b4me! Re your question:

so let me get this straight, trump campaigned in Montana, and Nevada, and his candidates still lost.


Yes!

From CNN:

Tester was widely seen early in the cycle as a vulnerable Democrat due to the fact Trump won the state by 20 points just two years ago. But Tester's unique brand as a farmer from Big Sandy and his personal connection to the state provided a contrast to Republican Matt Rosendale, whose ties to the state were constantly in question. President Trump flew to Montana four times to campaign against Tester.

From information up-thread & Montana friends, VP Pence also flew to Montana 3 times, & Donald Jr. 5 times,to campaign for the "carpet-bagger" real estate promoter from Maryland that Trump supported.

I know Trump went to Nevada at least twice to tout his candidate for Senate, but I don't have details.

Trump's wasted campaign trips at American Taxpayer expense, appears to be news the MSM is currently not sharing with us.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2018 - 10:30pm PT
McSally is a big-time Trump supporter. All due respect to Megan, but that should pretty much make clear which way McCain would go.
Happy Cowboy

Social climber
Boz MT
Nov 9, 2018 - 04:24am PT
The headline today in Montana “ Tester wins by poaching Trump voters, holding his base”
The article states that Tester won 14% of votes from people who voted for Trump in 2016.
Of that 20% of women turned their vote to Tester, and 8% of republican men.

When Tester was asked his opinion about contending with Trump’s 4 visits this campaign his response was “I look forward to the President’s next visit to Montana in hopes that it concerns the real issues affecting Montanans”. Every State could benefit with him in the Senate.
Jon Tester, the only working farmer in the Senate and possibly DC.

Also of Montana interest, 9 Native Americans were elected to State house.
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Nov 9, 2018 - 05:11am PT
I am glad that the people of California rejected Props. 3 and 6. Prop. 6 was an obvious Republican Party (third party status in California) publicity attempt, but 3 was a sneaky similar attempt to benefit big agriculture (a heavy funder of Republicans) at the expense of taxpayers.

When water issues make sense with regard to conservation, environment, agriculture, and the population, I am in favor of expending state funds or issuing bonds. Past history of water bond issues has shown the California population also goes this way. However, when water bonds are blank checks to big ag with a cynical ploy, I am glad that the people saw through the ruse. Yes, there are populations in my area who do not have drinkable water due to agriculture, but the solution to their problem is not to dump a bunch of bond money to big ag in hopes that the water would "tickle down" from ag to those without water. I am glad that it appears that the California population understands that more dams is not always the answer.

Before you ag supporters flame on, I come from a family that were Central Valley farmers. I worked on my family's farm. I saw how farmers thought that water from the great river next to the farm that we pumped the hell out of was an unlimited source.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 9, 2018 - 07:35am PT
McSally is a big-time Trump supporter.
McSally used to be more of a moderate.
All due respect to Megan, but that should pretty much make clear which way McCain would go

I'm not so sure
John M

climber
Nov 9, 2018 - 07:47am PT
McSally ran one of the ugliest smear and fear based campaigns that I have seen. There was big big money behind her because the ads ran about 4 to 1. 4 McSally ads for every one of Sinema's. It was so bad that some major republicans even came out and said that what the McSally ads were saying were not true.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 9, 2018 - 09:03am PT
Yeah, maybe you’re right, 10b. Hard to say for sure which way McCain might prefer. No doubt he’d be disgusted by the options, esp. the one in his own Party.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 9, 2018 - 09:28am PT
Trump continues to drain that swamp!

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-whitaker-ftc-20181109-story.html#nt=oft-Recommender%20Chain~Generic%20card~timed-report-duplicate~whitaker-651a~~1~yes-art~curated~curatedpage

When federal investigators were digging into an invention-promotion company accused of fraud by customers, they sought information in 2017 from a prominent member of the company's advisory board: Matthew Whitaker, a former U.S. attorney in Iowa.

...In the end, the FTC filed a complaint against Miami-based World Patent Marketing, accusing it of misleading investors and falsely promising that it would help them patent and profit from their inventions, according to court filings.

In May, a federal court in Florida ordered the company to pay a settlement of more than $25 million and close up shop, records show. The company did not admit nor deny wrongdoing.

..."It's really upsetting to know that guy will be attorney general," said Ryan Masti, 26, who lost $77,000 after paying World Patent Marketing to help him bring to market his idea for a social media app to help the disabled. "It's so offensive. It's like a stab in the back."
...

According to the FTC, however, the company falsely promised clients it would patent and market their ideas in exchange for hefty fees — and then pocketed the money.

"For the last three years, Defendants have operated an invention-promotion scam that has bilked thousands of consumers out of millions of dollars," the agency alleged in a recently unsealed court filing. "In truth and in fact, Defendants fail to fulfill almost every promise they make to consumers."
...

The Miami New Times, which published an in-depth investigation of the company last year, reported that Cooper would sometimes tell people who had posted negative reviews of the company that he had security with specialized training in the Israeli martial art Krav Maga.

In an August 2015 email included in court documents, Whitaker wrote to a complainant who threatened to go to the Better Business Bureau, "I am assuming you understand that there could be serious civil and criminal consequences for you." He noted he was a former U.S. attorney.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 9, 2018 - 11:25am PT
Boy, is the Senate race in Arizona close. Sounds like the remaining ballots to be counted are in areas that generally favor Democrats/Sinema, but the margin is sooooo close that it could easily swing either direction. This will go through the weekend (at least), and a recount & legal action seems guaranteed.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2018 - 03:09pm PT
I don't understand how or why The Wall Street Journal keeps biting the right-wing hands that own it, but I sure enjoy it when it does.

President Trump was heavily involved during his presidential campaign in silencing the stories of women who claimed to have extramarital affairs with him, according to a report from The Wall Street Journal that contradicts repeated denials from Trump.

Federal prosecutors have gathered evidence that Trump worked with his friend and media executive David Pecker to use the National Enquirer tabloid to buy the silence of adult-film star Stormy Daniels and former Playboy model Karen McDougal, according to interviews the Journal had with three dozen people with knowledge of the transactions.

Trump was allegedly involved in nearly every step of the process to prevent Daniels and McDougal from publicizing their stories and worked with his longtime lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen to coordinate the deals.

More here:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-played-key-role-in-coordinating-hush-money-payments-to-daniels-mcdougal-report/ar-BBPwNO1?li=BBnb7Kz
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 9, 2018 - 03:24pm PT
the good news is that Colorado elected a millionaire.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 9, 2018 - 03:56pm PT
Just a millionaire, huh? These days, that's positively low-income...
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 10, 2018 - 09:04am PT
^^^^

YES!!!

Excellent consolation prize for being stuck with a useless Trump lapdog in our district just to the east (Sierra foothills).

The useless lapdog up here DOESN'T EVEN LIVE IN OUR DISTRICT (McClintock is a piece of crap).
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 10, 2018 - 09:39am PT
The Lapdog party has replaced the tea baggers...Another act of desperation for the party that forgot how to govern...
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 10, 2018 - 09:49am PT
Speaking of anonymous newcomers...

dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2018 - 10:06am PT
Dickhead:

There is no reason for these massive, deadly and costly forest fires in California except that forest management is so poor. Billions of dollars are given each year, with so many lives lost, all because of gross mismanagement of the forests. Remedy now, or no more Fed payments!


-President Dickhead
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 10, 2018 - 10:26am PT
Dickhead forgot to blame the homeless messicans for starting these fires...He's slipping up...Cue up the Sarah Sanders air raid siren...
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 10, 2018 - 10:30am PT
Glad to see the Central Valley getting some fresh leadership, hell, getting some leadership, finally.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 10, 2018 - 01:10pm PT
Is that a recent DOTUS tweet in response to the recent California fires?

Dickhead, indeed.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
^^^Yep, from this morning.^^^
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 10, 2018 - 01:31pm PT
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Nov 10, 2018 - 02:24pm PT
^^^

Well, the US isn't a democracy. Perhaps you should re-read the constitution.

The US is a Republic. There is a difference. Popular vote has nothing to do with election of Senate seats, by design. The House is more representational by population.

"the good news is that Colorado elected a millionaire."

The choices in Colorado sucked - a relative of George Bush, in Walker Stapleton, and Polis - a tech millionaire. I sat at a table with Polis's staff during a debate and it is interesting how slick the dude is, how he word-smiths his positions to an audience.



perswig

climber
Nov 10, 2018 - 02:24pm PT
For better or worse, it looks like the way a republic works.
And the results from the last redistricting.

Those two things and the insidious creep of socioeconomic division mirroring geography are currently working more in the repubs favor, and the dems need to get a grip on it soon. Even the specter of 'non-res' labeling on the upcoming census may affect folks' willingness to input data and would likely push the gerrymandering further down that road.

Dale
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 10, 2018 - 03:00pm PT
“There is a difference “

Oh ,and ,

“by design “.

I do not have to re read anything,really.

We all know why it is, as perswig has pointed out.
JOEY.F

Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
Nov 10, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
Yup, DMT, been watching that one.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Nov 10, 2018 - 04:12pm PT
Neither party is "the solution" to "the problem".

The Democrats ignore rural America. The Repubs pander to it, so the Repubs get the vote of rural America. So the Senate swings Repub...

Think I'm wrong about ignoring 85% (by area) of the country? Talk to a farmer, a rancher, a coal miner, a welder.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 10, 2018 - 04:49pm PT
Or a Carpenter.

The system is stacked for yours,with the Senate and the Electoral College,but ,by all means,defend that.

A Republic.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 10, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
The system is stacked for yours,with the Senate and the Electoral College,but ,by all means,defend that.

A Republic.

Yep. We will. The Constitution as it's written, that is--subject to amendment processes outlined therein. Direct democracy is a nightmare. Funny they understood this 240 years ago--but you're still trying to grasp the concept.

Stop being such a crybaby.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 10, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
Got to agree with Litty on this one. People tend to vote their self interest. the Constitution helps keep politicians somewhat on the right track.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 10, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
Stop being such a Russian troll.
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Nov 10, 2018 - 06:03pm PT
Good to have some working for the republic

[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 10, 2018 - 06:03pm PT
Oligarchy is a much better way to go than a democracy ...Make Trump's kids more wealthy so they wont have to cheat the IRS like their bitchy old man...
Trump

climber
Nov 10, 2018 - 06:48pm PT
I don't understand how or why The Wall Street Journal keeps biting the right-wing hands that own it, but I sure enjoy it when it does.

No shame in not understanding. Recognizing ourselves not understanding is an opportunity to identity our misunderstandings, and correct them, if that’s what we honestly want to do. And if it’s not, maybe we could recognize that about ourselves.

Sounds like this isn’t the first time that you’ve noticed a conservative publication not mindlessly toeing the right-wing line in service to their right-wing financiers? What do you think our misunderstanding is that continues to prevent us from understanding this even after seeing it before? Why is this still surprising us?

Maybe they’re just honest journalists with integrity trying to report the truth? Heck, I even believe that’s kind of true about the left-wing press with its left-wing financiers!

Just because Trump likes to engage in anti-press and anti-others rhetoric doesn’t mean that we have to believe it too.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 10, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
This midterm election ain’t over yet....

Sinema is pulling ahead in Arizona....

In Florida, Nelson and Scott are damn close and every vote is under a microscope...

And Gillum has rescinded his concession....

Oh, the drama!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 10, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
Where are those extra democrat votes coming from...? Are the caravan people voting already...Fraud...
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 10, 2018 - 07:32pm PT
Dave:
Well, the US isn't a democracy. … The US is a Republic.

Can somebody explain the origin of the statement that "Republic is not a democracy"?
It looks like this flawed concept is taught in US schools. Right?

It's obvious that democracy is broader term than republic.
Republic is always a democracy.

Google can help to find a lot of sites discussing this issue. e.g. http://www.yourdictionary.com/democracy:
"The definition of a democracy is a form of government in which the people rule, either directly or through elected representatives. An example of democracy is the type of government in the United States."
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 10, 2018 - 07:41pm PT
Democrats Aren't Losing Faith in Our Constitutional System. They Just Don't Like It

It's because they see the system as a way to achieve partisan goals, not as a set of politically neutral idealistic values.

It's not a civics problem, either. One hopes that such liberal activists as NBC News' Ken Dilanian, who wonders "how much longer the American majority will tolerate being pushed around by a rural minority," understand sixth-grade civics. New York Times columnist Paul Krugman surely knows that the Constitution doesn't give "disproportionate weight" to smaller states. It intentionally gives all states the same weight in the Senate. Krugman only finds this idea "disproportionate" because it protects millions of Americans from the centralized coercive state that he envisions for them. The disproportionality he sees merely reflects his own concerns. It has nothing to do with the system.

https://www.creators.com/read/david-harsanyi/11/18/democrats-arent-losing-faith-in-our-constitutional-system-they-just-dont-like-it
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 10, 2018 - 08:07pm PT
T Hocking, thank you for clarifying American logic for me.

Does it mean that this confusion started a couple of centuries ago by commentators on the American Constitution?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 10, 2018 - 10:52pm PT
It's pretty simple guys, it's one person one vote. Every vote is equal but some votes are more equal than others. Like if you live in Wyoming as opposed to California.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 11, 2018 - 04:08am PT
Good to see the Right here defend the Constitution.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 11, 2018 - 05:10am PT
Not defend.

Explain.

We should all do our part to reduce ignorance.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 11, 2018 - 05:52am PT
“Not defend”.

Way to stay true to form,discredit the messenger,not the message.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 11, 2018 - 06:59am PT
Democrats Aren't Losing Faith in Our Constitutional System. They Just Don't Like It
Add to Ed's repertoire, the cheap blanket statement that floats on a sliver of substance followed by the declaration of widespread malfeasance by way of the sliver example (mimicked technique by Fox News).

I only see one lawmaker currently assaulting our Constitution! Your congressional Republicans are doing the blocking and tackling without fear of backlash from their constituency. So really, it's you who threaten our Constitution- there's a blanket statement supported by data and fact.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 11, 2018 - 07:05am PT
what else would you expect from an ignorant racist?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 11, 2018 - 07:23am PT
Make an unpopular (but accurate) statement....

and the mean girls show up.

Too funny!

Thanks for the laugh.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 11, 2018 - 07:35am PT
Some nice Sunday morning reading....



How the GOP Gave Up on Porn
Once, the fight against pornography was the beating heart of the American culture war. Now porn is a ballooning industry—and maybe a harmful one—with no real opponents. What happened?

By TIM ALBERTA November/December 2018
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/republican-party-anti-pornography-politics-222096

The Year Was 1976. Republicans were reeling from Watergate. Christian conservatives were defecting to the Democratic Party. And Jerry Falwell, the Virginia preacher with a booming Baptist congregation and a popular radio show, decided he could no longer sit on the sidelines as he saw American culture succumbing to the creeping forces of secularism. The precipitating event was an interview given by Jimmy Carter, in which the Democratic presidential nominee admitted to having “looked on a lot of women with lust,” and “committed adultery in my heart many times.” Carter had never acted on such temptation, he implied, but the admission kept him humble: “Christ says, don’t consider yourself better than someone else because one guy screws a whole bunch of women while the other guy is loyal to his wife.”

The doctrine itself was not objectionable. But the language—and more crucially, the venue—was intolerable for Falwell. The interview had run in Playboy magazine, alongside nude photographs of Miss November and articles such as “The Vatican Sex Manual” and “Prurient Puritans.” In his televised Sunday sermons, Falwell began railing against Carter’s courtship of the randy men’s magazine and its 5 million readers. When Carter’s team tried to block one of his antagonistic sermons from being broadcast shortly before Election Day, claiming it violated the Federal Communications Commission’s Fairness Doctrine, Falwell raised the stakes. He assembled a group of leading fundamentalist ministers at the National Press Club in Washington and accused Carter of “muzzling a preacher of the gospel from preaching his moral convictions.” The press conference, which cemented Falwell’s status as an ascendant political heavyweight, would be looked back on as the inception of the Moral Majority.


It was the height of the porn wars. More than abortion or homosexuality, the rising tide of pornography in America was, in the 1970s, becoming central to conservative Americans’ perception of a civilization in decline. For faith leaders, it was an easily exploitable issue; for Falwell, it was a crusade. He fought to remove adult content from convenience stores. He went to court to battle Hustler and Penthouse. And he never forgave Carter—who ended up winning the White House in 1976, carrying the evangelical vote along the way—for his original sin of talking to Hugh Hefner’s publication. “Giving an interview to Playboy magazine was lending the credence and the dignity of the highest office in the land to a salacious, vulgar magazine that did not even deserve the time of his day,” Falwell said in 1981.

Forty years after that D.C. press conference, a very different scene unfolded. This one took place in New York and starred Jerry Falwell Jr., inheritor of the family business. Hours earlier, the younger Falwell had introduced the GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump to a massive gathering of Christian leaders, calling him “God’s man,” anointed to lead the nation in turbulent times. The summit was successful beyond anyone’s expectation. As they celebrated back at Trump Tower, Falwell sought to document the occasion with a photo. The future president stood in the middle, flanked by Falwell Jr. and his wife, Becki. Thumbs went up. The camera snapped. Falwell tweeted the photo to his 60,000 followers. There was just one hiccup: Lurking over Becki Falwell’s left shoulder, framed in gold, was a cover of Playboy, graced by a bow-tied Trump and a smiling brunette covered only by his tuxedo jacket.

The photo sparked a frenzy. Nothing, it seemed, could so neatly encapsulate the religious right’s backsliding as Falwell Jr. giving a thumbs-up in front of the very magazine his father had singled out as symbolic of America’s moral decay—while standing shoulder to shoulder with a man who had appeared in a softcore porno flick and who reportedly, as Jimmy Carter might have put it, screwed a bunch of women outside of marriage, including a Playboy model and hardcore adult-film actress.

And it highlighted something else just as striking: the total abandonment of pornography as a battleground in America’s culture war.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 11, 2018 - 07:39am PT
"White people are murderers and rapists" is an accurate statement but does not reflect the totality or general nature of white people.

We understand how simplistic rational works on the willing.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 11, 2018 - 08:31am PT
apogee,
Re: porn
the largest number of people watching porn live in Utah.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 11, 2018 - 08:33am PT
Two recounts in Florida. Both triggered automatically. Trump and both R's are crying foul and saying the elections are being stolen by unethical liberals.
You know how that one person that's always worried about someone else lying to him or stealing from. It's cause that's what he would do in that situation.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 11, 2018 - 09:18am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 11, 2018 - 09:42am PT
10b....i don't live in Utah...
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Nov 11, 2018 - 12:04pm PT
Never really thought about it before, but now that you mention it, I guess it could be true to some extent that the "anti-porn" agenda has kind of switched political parties. Funny how those things go.


Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 11, 2018 - 01:23pm PT


dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
Trump is white (actually Oompa Loompa orange) while the kneeling players are mostly African American. Trump is excused.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2018 - 02:54pm PT
Apogee: Per your post about Jerry Falwell Jr. & his wife posing with Trump, with Trump's Playboy cover framed in the background.

I remember reading about it, but a search for a photo easily found one.


Any moral outrage Trump has done or can do, is just fine with Evangelical leadership.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 11, 2018 - 03:26pm PT
Evangelicals, long known for expressing their moral outrage, are now best described as suffering from terminal moral outage.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 11, 2018 - 05:29pm PT
TMO..Terminal Moral Outrage....That's really bad Andy...Goober from Andy Griffith...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 12, 2018 - 06:25am PT
Not defend.

Explain.

EdwardT, that's a noble cause. Perhaps while you are at it, you could explain the 2nd amendment to the right wing. They seem to miss that whole 'well regulated militia' thing.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 12, 2018 - 07:28am PT
Things are looking good for Sinema in Arizona...her lead over McSally just keeps growing as the votes are counted...not many ballots left in Arizona....

Dems need as much sway as they can get in the Senate.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:31am PT

//
Things are looking good for Sinema in Arizona...her lead over McSally just keeps growing as the votes are counted.//

Seems it is now called for her. There's a lot of blather about doing right by our vets once a year but the day after they get kicked to the curb.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:38am PT
👍👍👍👍🤞🏼
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:42am PT
Yeah...politicians constantly laud vets and at the same time they move heaven and earth to ensure that their children never become vets.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:31am PT
EdwardT, that's a noble cause. Perhaps while you are at it, you could explain the 2nd amendment to the right wing. They seem to miss that whole 'well regulated militia' thing.

Ummmm, Gary, this was decided in 2007 Heller and 2010 McDonald. But maybe you know more about these matters than the Supreme Court? In any event, the right is certainly better constitutionally defined than, say, the right to an abortion.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:46am PT
Lituya?!

re: Militias? 2nd amendment rights.

Maybe it is a question of equal access. My cousin, a police officer, once said that he thought the police and criminals should have the same "weapons". Certainly better than the militarization of our police forces that was seen after excess spending in the Homeland Security budget. Still better?

Disclaimer. This is probably way off base, but I had to take the opportunity to respond to you. I will gladly, and at my best, most humbly take correction from you.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

edit:guns have not always won the day
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 12, 2018 - 11:29am PT
Ummmm, Gary, this was decided in 2007 Heller and 2010 McDonald. But maybe you know more about these matters than the Supreme Court?

In this particular instance, I do indeed.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
Maybe it is a question of equal access. My cousin, a police officer, once said that he thought the police and criminals should have the same "weapons". Certainly better than the militarization of our police forces that was seen after excess spending in the Homeland Security budget.

That's pretty darn close. And I agree re the ill-conceived militarization of the police. Remember when they carried .38 revolvers and had a 12 gauge shotgun in the patrol car? Sure, I'd go back to those days. How do we get there?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
Lituya! Per your thoughts:

And I agree re the ill-conceived militarization of the police. Remember when they carried .38 revolvers and had a 12 gauge shotgun in the patrol car? Sure, I'd go back to those days. How do we get there?


It's interesting to read that you share the far-right dream of being better armed than the police.

My memories, have the cops all adopting automatic pistols & putting assault rifles in their cars, started with this game-changing incident.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-north-hollywood-shootout-revisited-20170223-htmlstory.html

Feb 28, 1997

It began as just another gorgeous L.A. day. Then, shortly after 9 a.m., a spectral scene of combat popped onto TV screens across the city.

Two armor-clad figures standing calmly outside a bank were spewing machine gun fire at a swarm of police officers shooting back with pistols from behind car doors and trees.

Within minutes, the parking lot outside the Bank of America on Laurel Canyon Boulevard in North Hollywood was on television screens across the country, as disbelieving viewers watched the battle unfold on live feeds from network helicopters circling overhead.

For 44 minutes, out-gunned officers engaged the bank robbers, dodging barrages of high-powered bullets, rescuing their wounded and peppering their targets with hundreds of shots that bounced off harmlessly.

Gradually their shots probed openings in their adversaries’ armor as a SWAT team arrived from afar to equalize the firepower. The North Hollywood shootout ended with the two perpetrators — Larry Eugene Phillips Jr., 26, and Emil Dechebal Matasareanu, 30 — dead in the street. Eleven officers were wounded, but none killed.
WBraun

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 01:36pm PT
Some cars have shotgun with armor piercing rounds.

Fully automatic assault rifle.

And non-lethal bean bag round shotgun

Plus standard issue sidearm and taser.

Ready for bad guys like Fritz ...... :-)
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 01:43pm PT
It's interesting to read that you share the far-right dream of being better armed than the police

I won't speak for him. I'd love to hear his experience. Still, I think he was saying the opposite.

Being first to step forward, while standing down, or maybe just standing ready?

Anyway, my cousin worked on an island with a history of colonialism and the consequent unequal division of technology and resources integral to it. His statement about having the same weapons was maybe somehow related. He and my uncle could be like that.

edit:
How do we get there?

At least, it seems that some have been sung across the divide. And apparently vote?! (from the happiegirl below)
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 01:47pm PT
Just saw that Kyrsten Sinema has won Senate race in Arizona - First Democrat AZ Senator in a quarter century!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 12, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
Remember when they carried .38 revolvers and had a 12 gauge shotgun in the patrol car? Sure, I'd go back to those days. How do we get there?

You should ask Wayne LaPierre about that.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 03:15pm PT
It's interesting to read that you share the far-right dream of being better armed than the police.

Not sure why you’d think that. As usual, Fritz, it’s all about what you think you know.

As Jim noted above, I was, in fact, saying just the opposite. Yes, citizens should be equally armed re the police. When did the arms race start—and who started it? Who cares.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 12, 2018 - 04:37pm PT
Hillary 2020??!!

Former Clinton adviser says Hillary will run in 2020
By CAITLIN OPRYSKO 11/12/2018 08:40 AM EST

Two-time Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton will mount a third bid for the White House, longtime Clinton adviser Mark Penn wrote in an op-ed published Sunday by The Wall Street Journal, predicting that the former first lady and secretary of state is readying a "Hillary 4.0" campaign for 2020.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/12/clinton-aide-2020-run-983684
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 12, 2018 - 04:39pm PT
Looks like Trump gets re elected.

HS
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 12, 2018 - 05:22pm PT
When did the arms race start—and who started it?

Perhaps Wayne LaPierre can tell you who expedited it.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
Are you sure? Cuz this is bullsh#t.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 12, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
So who amongst the various Democratic senators, governors, or possibly congresspersons would do?

Cory Booker is presentable, plenty of charisma
Beto O'rourke has earned street cred, but probably to early for him
Kamala Harris, Well prepared for battle and a great litigator
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2018 - 06:42pm PT
I sigh for those who advocate that police & civilians should be equally armed.

I sigh for those who are shocked the police now have armored cars & machine guns.

However, those who advocate, or wish for an armed & ready to revolt right-wing militia, want to face civil authorities on an equal or better footing.

And of course, let's guess what political party advocates that everyone have armor-piercing bullets!

US agency drops efforts to ban armor-piercing bullets
11 March 2015
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-31827249

Bullets that are able to pierce police officers' protective vests will remain legal in the US after a proposed ban met with a fierce opposition from gun rights activists.

The Obama administration sought to ban certain types of ammunition used in the popular AR-15-style rifles.

Many armor-piercing bullets used in handguns are illegal under the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act.

But rifle bullets have long been exempt.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) argued that high-powered, pistol-like rifles didn't exist when the law was enacted in 1986 and therefore some rifle bullets also should banned as well.

The rule change would have affected only "M855 green tip" or "SS109" rounds with certain types of metal core projectiles.

More than 50 US senators wrote to the ATF protesting against the proposed ban.

"If law-abiding gun owners cannot obtain rifle ammunition, or face substantial difficulty in finding ammunition available and at reasonable prices because government entities are banning such ammunition, then the Second Amendment is at risk," the senators said in the letter.

On Tuesday, House Judiciary Committee Chairman Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican, said he was "pleased that the Obama administration has abandoned its attack on the Second Amendment",

Just suck up the reality you made, conservatives. You advocate having your folks ready to do battle with civil authories.

Why deny it, or try to weasel around it, the NRA doesn't.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 12, 2018 - 07:44pm PT
Cory Booker is presentable, plenty of charisma
Beto O'rourke has earned street cred, but probably to early for him
Kamala Harris, Well prepared for battle and a great litigator

I am Sparticus Booker

Miguel O'Rouke

Kamala "you can't handle the truth" Harris

Good candidates. Every one.

Maybe throw Alexandria "I am more smarter than you" Ocasio-Cortez into the mix.

The Democrats need to decide if their platform is moderate or far left.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:14pm PT
Moderate or far left...that leaves a lot of ground in the middle. Democrats need to bring back their natural base of blue collar workers who have been voting against their best interests because of polarizing side issues. The midterms showed they are on the right path.
Trump’s total inadequacies and blatant racisim will deliver minorities and educated whites to the democrats.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:43pm PT
I hear Gillibrand is thinking about 2020. Not my first choice--but she and Uncle Joe are the only sane candidates I've heard about from the D side.

On the R side, I hope Kasich makes another go in the primaries.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
Just suck up the reality you made, conservatives. You advocate having your folks ready to do battle with civil authories.

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2018 - 08:56pm PT
Lituya?

Posting a photo of me having fun celebrating Judge Wichell's 1800's patriotic photo on an obscure peak in the Sierras, doesn't help your NRA cause.


Just suck up the reality you made conservatives. You advocate having your folks ready to do battle with civil authories.

Why deny it, or try to weasel around it, the NRA doesn't.

I obviously, am not ready to do battle.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
Labels may largely depend on your perspective.

I sigh for those who advocate that police & civilians should be equally armed.

I sigh for those who are shocked the police now have armored cars & machine guns.

However, those who advocate, or wish for an armed & ready to revolt right-wing militia, want to face civil authorities on an equal or better footing.

Wanting may be key? History is complicated.



Fritz, let's repatriate some diamonds, support international inter-racial adoption, lobby for reduced cost AIDS and TB treatment. You could tell stories about the history of homesteading in Idaho. Lituya, I realize no guarantees, but could you help with security?

Alternately, there were tours in Oakland that visited sites that where significant events in the Black Panther Movement occurred. I may be able to host.

Stories are being lost. In places at a disproportionate rate. They should be heard and recorded. How do we get there?

Edit: historical exercise of 2nd amendment rights
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:20pm PT
Well, before we talk I'm gonna need Fritz to lower his weapon, s-l-o-w-l-y drop that hammer, and then remove his finger from the trigger guard. If he can't safely handle a revolver, I shudder to think of him bumbling with a 1911.

You advocate having your folks ready to do battle with civil authories.

Civil authorities have a history of alarmingly frequent incivility. So yes, Fritz, you are basically right.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
Trump being "strong on trade" is going to reap some rewards 2020. Question is, who will be the beneficiary?

www.agweb.com

The U.S. Department of Agriculture says farmers are expected to harvest the largest soybean crop on record, but they have to deal with a constricted market in which to sell their crop because of the administration's tariff battle with China. In its latest update, the USDA expected soybean harvest to tally 4.6 billion bushels. That's the largest ever!

Illinois leads soybean production with 688 million bushels, and Iowa is second. Selling soybeans to China has nearly halted with the tariff dispute resulting in a growing stockpiles and the lowest prices for farmers in more than a decade. Corn production is estimated at 14.6 billion bushels-the second largest crop on record.

Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
Fritz,

Try this... Lie down and look up at the sky. I'll do the same. In CA my view may be a bit more obscured, we're trying to reduce the emissions though. Same sky right?

If Lituya goes to unzip your jacket, don't freak! Ok,... do it!!!

Also, Fritz, apologies for any inappropriate cultural appropriation (i thought the panthers picture was pretty good though).

edit:
Civil authorities have a history of alarmingly frequent incivility. So, yes, you are basically right.

I really hope that the US may regain some standing in the world. Maybe ironically, if we had more in the past, there certainly was incivility. Still, some shined above it.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2018 - 09:43pm PT
Jim Clipper! Thank you for your moderate stance.

You like stories? I've posted a lot of climbing, gear history, & general interest stories on ST.

Links to Fritz ST posts----”

Climbing History & Old climbing gear.

Gauloises, Don Whillians, the Frogs & Climbing history.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1410426/Gauloises-Don-Whillans-the-Frogs-and-Climbing-History

CHOUINARD, GREAT PACIFIC IRONWORKS & Other Gear Threads
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2906806/CHOUINARD-GREAT-PACIFIC-IRONWORKS-Other-Gear-Threads

Chouinard carabiner timeline 12/11/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1327553

Royal Robbins/Mountain Paraphernalia timeline & history.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1022257&msg=1022257

My first mountain tent.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1060647&tn=20
The five stages of backing off climbs.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1039807/The-five-stages-of-backing-off-climbs
Climbing stories

Donini at The City of Rocks: Climbing as a Lifetime Sport! 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Donini-at-The-City-of-Rocks-Climbing-as-a-Lifetime-Sport/t10740n.html

Brenta Dolomites hiking & climbing 2014
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2482150/Brenta-Dolomites-hiking-stories-history-adventure-thread

Skyladder & North Face Athabasca Columbia Icefields 1974
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3051216/Skyladder-Mt-Andromeda-Columbia-Icefields-1974-Recently

A SLICK ROCK Adventure in Idaho with a single Blue Camalot Belay aug.2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-SLICK-ROCK-Adventure-in-Idaho-with-a-single-Blue-Camalot-Belay/t12821n.html

Pursuit of BlueBonnet tower and the Lost Crystal Cave. Dec 2009 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Pursuit-of-Bluebonnet-Tower-and-the-Lost-Crystal-Cave-Sawtooths-Idaho/t10506n.html

Elephant’s Perch New route 1/15/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Elephant_s_Perch_Sawtooth_Range_Idaho_NR_Epic_Pacydermial_Pleasantries_1977/t10566n.html

Climbing at city of rocks with Donini 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Donini-at-The-City-of-Rocks-Climbing-as-a-Lifetime-Sport/t10740n.html

Mt Fay 1978 revised 2011 Trip Report.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/MARK-FRITZS-BIG-MT-FAY-1978-CANADIAN-ADVENTURE/t11242n.html

Royal Robbins Birthday thread back in Feb 2010. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1089550&msg=1091782

A direct start on The North Ridge Goat Perch with Bruce & Jesus
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1591843&msg=1592030#msg1592030

Fred Beckey, Pete Schoening: Climbing Epic Sawtooth's 1949
Idaho Magazine has just published my eight-page story in their May 2012 issue!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1823447&msg=1825410#msg1825410

Outdoor adventures.

A Search for Cave art, Prehistoric women, Wine & Adventures in France Sept 2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Search-for-Cave-art-Prehistoric-women-Wine-Adventures-in-France/t12848n.html

White Knob Peak, 2014
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/3rd-times-the-charm-on-White-Knob-Peak/t12511n.html

2 1/2 day N. Idaho adventure into big-river & dark-forests
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2228541/2-1-2-day-N-Idaho-adventure-into-big-river-dark-forests

CATCH & RELEASE POT HUNTING/ AKA THE OUTDOOR MUSEUM
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2135320/CATCH-RELEASE-POT-HUNTING-AKA-THE-OUTDOOR-MUSEUM

August 2011 Climbing with Donini, Jan, Brokedown at City of Rocks;
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1584605/Donini-Brokedown-Jan-the-over-50-posse-at-City-of-Rocks

Owyhee adventures: rock, cows, ticks, guns, Prehistoric women, & secret Air Force bombing sites. July 4th 2011
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Owyhee-adventures-rock-cows-ticks-guns-Prehistoric-women-secret-Air-Force-bombing-sites/t11055n.html

6-day San Juan River Workout, rafting, & Lost Tribe of Prehistoric Women Search Epic!
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/6-day-San-Juan-River-Workout-rafting-Lost-Tribe-of-Prehistoric-Women-Search-Epic/t11013n.html

BIG Water on the Bruneau! A rafting epic.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/BIG-Water-on-the-Bruneau-A-rafting-epic/t10888n.html

High Mountain mine exploring & Via Ferrata, Idaho Style—August 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1245178/High-Mountain-mine-exploring-Via-Ferrata-Idaho-Style

A short piece on "getting high in the city" http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1205176&msg=1205513#msg1205513

2011 Short Springtime fun at City of Rocks
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Short-Springtime-fun-at-City-of-Rocks/t11032n.html

Our Big! 2010 fire
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1248574/A-Wake-UP-brush-fire-for-Fritz-Heidi

Some photos & remarks for my old climbing buddy Jim Donini about Terra Incognita in Idaho.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1665159&msg=1665217#msg1665217

2011 Sawtooth Mtns. Choss Adventure----The Grand Aiguille
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1599813&msg=1599813#msg1599813

2012 August A Short Visit to an Island! In NV. with a mtn. & history!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1902511/A-Short-Visit-to-an-Island-In-NV-with-a-mtn-history

4 mtns, 10 Cuts, & 100 miles of ridgetop dirt road in Idaho! Sept 2012
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1931187&msg=1931187#msg1931187

Training for, then climbing a 28,999’ Tropical Volcano
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/TRAINING-FOR-THEN-CLIMBING-an-AWESOME-8839-meter-28-999-Ft-TROPICAL-VOLCANO/t11824n.html

A Ridge So Far &/or Am I getting too-old for this? Idaho 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Ridge-So-Far-or-Am-I-getting-too-old-for-this/t13337n.html

FRITZ & HIS FLIES! BITING-FLESH ADVENTURES IN DEEPEST IDAHO! 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/FRITZ-HIS-FLIES-BITING-FLESH-ADVENTURES-IN-DEEPEST-IDAHO/t13327n.html



International Travel Adventures
Bariloche Argentina Treking becomes an adventure. 4/1/2010 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Patagonia-Treking-becomes-a-Fritz-Adventure-Bariloche-Argentina/t10612n.html

Mustang story on Nepal appreciation thread. Dec 2011
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1680800&msg=1684994#msg1684994

Spring fun in Spain, with some climbing too!
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Spring-fun-in-Spain-with-some-climbing-too/t11400n.html

A visit to Donini’s Bivy cabin in Patagonia & ensuing adventures
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2101371/Chilling-in-Chilean-Patagonia-at-Basecamp-Donini-Bivy March 2013

A Search for Cave art, Prehistoric women, Wine & Adventures in France 2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Search-for-Cave-art-Prehistoric-women-Wine-Adventures-in-France/t12848n.html

HOTEL TO HOTEL HIKING WITH HEIDI & JERRY & ANGIE IN THE DOLOMITES 2018

http://www.supertopo.com/tr/HOTEL-TO-HOTEL-HIKING-WITH-HEIDI-JERRY-ANGIE-IN-THE-DOLOMITES/t13352n.html

A visit to Dubrovnik, some sailing in Croatia, & an Octoberfest Party on the way home 2017
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-visit-to-Dubrovnik-some-sailing-in-Croatia-an-Octoberfest-Party-on-the-way-home/t13220n.html




Lituya & his ilk post nothing but right wing political cartoons & schist stories, & I won't take it anymore, without responding.



apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:57pm PT

Sinema wins Arizona Senate race
The Democrat pulled out a come-from-behind victory to flip a formerly Republican seat.
By JAMES ARKIN 11/12/2018 04:42 PM EST Updated 11/12/2018 09:06 PM EST
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/12/2018-arizona-senate-election-sinema-mcsally-984928

Democratic Rep. Kyrsten Sinema has defeated Republican Rep. Martha McSally in the battle for the open Senate seat in Arizona, giving Democrats their second Senate pickup of the cycle.

Sinema had 49.7 percent of the vote to McSally’s 48 percent when The Associated Press called the race Monday evening. Though McSally led narrowly on Election Night, Sinema took the lead in the race two days later and continued to pad her edge as the state counted outstanding votes through the weekend and Monday.




First Democrat Senator in AZ in 30 years!

And waaaaaaaay better looking than any of the other old white guys in the Chamber....
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:58pm PT
Lituya & his ilk post nothing but right wing political cartoons & schist stories, & I won't take it anymore, without responding.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:09pm PT
Whatever happened to John Eleazarian? He's always been one of the most articulate conservative voices here who also has a very respectable climbing history.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:09pm PT
Ok, just this once. So Fritz doesn't go crazy with that wheel gun.

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2018 - 10:14pm PT
Mighty Hiker! Thank you.

Lituya & his ilk have nothing but bile to add to this forum.

The pistol waving photo of me that apparently means something to Cosmic & Lituya, was part of a trip report I posted this summer. They choose to post it out of contex in a vain attempt to mock me.

The Delights of Delano on the 1st day of Summer. 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3099204&msg=3099702#msg3099702

Lituya? Where did you find that climbing photo? If you have something in you besides right-wing bile, it shows up darn rarely on ST.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:24pm PT
o.k. i'm done, a legend in my own mind... peace all, i'll sing myself away.


[Click to View YouTube Video]


id be lucky to share a rope with either of you guys. fwiw: i wore an access fund t-shirt to see johnny clegg. too young to catch sipho or andy at their peak. i scribbled ed feb. on it. u? if i've been mistaken, it wouldn't surprise me. finally, thanks for the content, im not in the bush league...

Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:25pm PT
If you have something in you besides right-wing bile, it shows up darn rarely on ST.

Sorry, Herr Fritz, but aren't you the one initiating a seemingly endless stream of political complaint threads? (When you're not bragging about your financial acumen or your latest globe trot, I mean.)

Your ST history reads more like the back of a Prius than a trip report. Still, I like you in a weird sort of way. Too bad for all that Idaho anger and crazy. Seriously though, take a gun safety course. Under no circumstances should a firearm be handled like that.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:26pm PT
First Democrat Senator in AZ in 30 years!

Great news.
So trump takes three trips to Montana to try and defeat Jon Tester-Tester won
trump campaigns in Nevada for Dean Heller- Heller lost
trump campaigns in Arizona for McSally- McSally lost

so much winning.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:29pm PT
ok im back... hope this works out. really. peace

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:37pm PT
Jim, the wife and I went to "Aussie Floyd" last month. They put on a really good show if they're ever in your neighborhood..
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:44pm PT
Sincerely, glad to hear you're traveling. We all should do some more. Maybe not the dream trip of youth, but a trip with the "better half", those truly in kind, may actually get you to highest places.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 07:17am PT
Good: cnn/ Acosta are suing trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/cnn-sues-white-house-to-regain-access-for-reporter-jim-acosta/2018/11/13/afc3423c-e6bf-11e8-bbdb-72fdbf9d4fed_story.html?utm_term=.08e81273d6b0

Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 07:34am PT
Apogee, it would be presumptuous to think I could do it on my own...

However, if I ever contributed to pissing off John E., and his leaving, I need to find a better use of my time. (I remember being pushy). There is a lot of unique experience here. It should persist through the inevitable back and forth.

Being presumptuous warning. I don't have the cred.

“It is better to die for an idea that will live, than to live for an idea that will die”

WBraun

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 07:38am PT
“It is better to die for an idea that will live, than to live for an idea that will die”

Most gross materialists ideas are ridiculously st00pid and they die for those st00pid ideas ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 13, 2018 - 07:53am PT

The death of another journalist. Trump backed the explanation from the Saudi regime. Everything is now pointing back to the Saudi regime as expected:

Audio evidence related to the killing of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi contains appalling details of the crime, the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has said, as he continues to pile pressure on the Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

Erdoğan’s latest intervention came as the New York Times reported that a member of the Saudi hit team dispatched to Istanbul to kill Khashoggi told one of his superiors by phone to “tell your boss” the operation was accomplished, an apparent reference to Prince Mohammed, and a Turkish newspaper published x-ray images of the team’s luggage, which included defibrillators and syringes.

The audio recordings shocked a Saudi intelligence official, Erdoğan told reporters on his return to Ankara on Monday night from first world war commemorations in France, where he said the killing was discussed with his US, French and German counterparts.

“We played the recordings regarding this murder to everyone who wanted them from us. Our intelligence organisation did not hide anything. We played them to all who wanted them including the Saudis, the USA, France, Canada, Germany, Britain,” he said. “The recordings are really appalling. Indeed, when the Saudi intelligence officer listened to the recordings he was so shocked he said: ‘This one must have taken heroin, only someone who takes heroin would do this’.”

How's the Trump family business and their associates doing?

Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 07:58am PT
Most gross materialists ideas are ridiculously st00pid and they die for those st00pid ideas ......

Agreed. Most. Having only read an interview, the person previously quoted was truly exceptional, eloquent, and had a strength I will never know. Maybe because of those like him.

You may like this one:

The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed.

p.s. going to the mountains. maybe catch you all there

p.p.s. poignant post about journalists. in the final tally, some too have been exceptional.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 08:30am PT
News says Mueller is expected to drop some indictments today. It's almost need EST....my bet for timing is 4pm.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 13, 2018 - 09:30am PT
4 is when Tweet Boi is going to tense up and drop another depth charge salvo down the White House toilet...
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 09:39am PT
Roger stone and conspiracy nutter Jerome Corsi have said they expect to be indicted.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 13, 2018 - 09:50am PT
Is there anyone associated with Trump that hasn't perjured themselves...? Distressing that the Republican Congress tried to sweep all this under the carpet...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 13, 2018 - 09:52am PT
There's nothing like Black Panthers posing with guns to turn conservatives into gun control advocates, is there?

The Mulford Act was a 1967 California bill that repealed a law allowing public carrying of loaded firearms. Named after Republican assemblyman Don Mulford, the bill was crafted in response to members of the Black Panther Party who were conducting armed patrols of Oakland neighborhoods while they were conducting what would later be termed copwatching. They garnered national attention after the Black Panthers marched bearing arms upon the California State Capitol to protest the bill.

AB-1591 was authored by Don Mulford (R) from Oakland, John T. Knox (D) from Richmond, Walter J. Karabian (D) from Monterey Park, Alan Sieroty (D) from Los Angeles, and William M. Ketchum (R) from Bakersfield, it passed both Assembly (controlled by Democrats 42:38) and Senate (split 20:20) and was signed by Governor Ronald Reagan on July 28. The law banned the carrying of loaded weapons in public.

Both Republicans and Democrats in California supported increased gun control. Governor Ronald Reagan, who was coincidentally present on the capitol lawn when the protesters arrived, later commented that he saw "no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons" and that guns were a "ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will." In a later press conference, Reagan added that the Mulford Act "would work no hardship on the honest citizen."
WBraun

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 09:56am PT
When there's dirt under the carpet they get the maid to vacuum there.

Haven't learned anything rotbrain when you went to skoowhol .... :-)
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 13, 2018 - 10:00am PT
MIT didn't have carpet sweeping until after i graduated ...
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Nov 13, 2018 - 10:12am PT

All of it - indictments, Acosta, umbrellagate is theatre to distract people. Trumps legacy will be a conservative court for the next 40 or so years. McConnell held the Senate open late to get a lot of Judges confirmed I checked the schedule and the Senate Judiciary met today. I believe he has gotten a record number for two years. With more coming.

But CNN likes to sit in their studio with their panel and bash Trump all day. Getting out there and actually finding things out is hard work.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 13, 2018 - 10:24am PT
"All of it - indictments, Acosta, umbrellagate is theatre to distract people."


I kinda doubt that Trump and his immediate advisors are specifically doing these things as an intended distraction strategy...I think he's just being himself, which results in this constant stream of shitshow.

The GOP as a whole however, knows a good distraction opportunity when they see one, esp. in their own camp. And they are using it for all it's worth to take action on things that will have generation-long impacts on America.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Nov 13, 2018 - 11:12am PT

It's actually strange to me as an ny-er. I would have thought Trumps legacy would be the yugest gold plated aircraft carrier the world had ever seen or something similar. Not something as subtle as changing the nature of the court. That's McConnells genius. He'll be shepherding Justices through while the "news" outlets are freaking out about Trumps tweet du jour. Years from now, I think McConnell will be the template for upcoming Majority Leaders.

But as above posters have mentioned, the GOP goes with what they got. CNN is loaded with 10/10 narcissists, the perfect foil to the 11/10 Trump. Made for each other.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 13, 2018 - 11:18am PT
even the hair on It's head is a distraction from what the It's dickhead self is doing. some sort of protective distraction, an anti-camouflage camouflage. but would you look at that headpelt?
dhayan

climber
culver city, ca
Nov 13, 2018 - 11:24am PT
It’s better to not live or die for ideas.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 12:30pm PT
I wish they were all distractions, but the problem is that what a president says, does, and how he comports himself is extremely important. Bashing CNN and a free press relentlessly, who in turn receive pipe bombs from emboldened nutcases: that stuff matters! Autocrats everywhere also take note. Calling white supremacists fine people: that matters too. Baselessly crying “fraud” about free elections in an attempt to disrupt and delegitimize them: matters. (Btw, think of the scary sh#t up he would stir up if loses in two years.)

The problem is that for the first time in history, we have to deal with a president who not only has immensely flawed policies, but who is also an immensely flawed person. We have to multitask our concern and outrage, but that’s probably asking too much from people.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 13, 2018 - 12:48pm PT
These aren't distracions...This is who Trump really is... He's not a president or leader but a crime boss for the Trump family syndicate using the American government to bolster his bank accounts...Way to go Republican voters...Proud of your orange haired commy felon..?
DanaB

climber
CO
Nov 13, 2018 - 12:56pm PT
I would have thought Trumps legacy would be the yugest gold plated aircraft carrier the world had ever seen

His legacy will the wall. And every 25 feet or so, there will be a plaque on it. With his portrait.

You think he hasn't imagined that?

bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
From y'day's electoral-vote.com; this will certainly be one of Trump's main 'successes' he will run on in 2020 (his 8 miles of 'wall'):

'Details are very scarce, but the AP and others are reporting that Texas firm SLSCo has been awarded a $145 million contract to build six miles of wall along the Mexican border. That will go along with 2 extra miles of fencing that has already been built in California, which means that the total for the Trump presidency will eventually reach 8 miles.

One point that is not clear is where the $145 million came from, and another that is not clear is where the authority to spend the money in that way came from. It is probable that the funds are being reallocated from other parts of the Department of Homeland Security budget. And it is likely that the authority is a liberal interpretation of already-existing Congressional approval for repairing and upgrading the current wall. The two miles in California was, in fact, regarded as a repair to the existing structure, and SLSCo will be fixing and heightening existing construction while adding the extra six miles.'
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
They broke ground on the first 6 miles of wall. Budgetted at 24 million. What are the odds of no addons?

Edit 145 mill, I stand corrected
bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:15pm PT
hmm- that must be $24 million per MILE
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:24pm PT
They broke ground on the first 6 miles of wall. Budgetted at 24 million. What are the odds of no addons?
I thought the total cost was $25 billion. They must be getting the money from elsewhere, as the new democratic house won't appropriate funds for it.
bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
The billions number is a (low) rough estimate for the physical structure; it doesn't include any allocation for buying any of the land...
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:47pm PT
I think President Trumps does a lot of rope-a-dope WWW drama crap as a distraction, tweets included. Yes very unPresidential and I think a lot of it is quite purposeful in that regard.

Some of it qualifies as that. But ignoring it isn’t always a great idea either.

Trump is trying to manipulate the vote count in Florida. If either of the Rs lose, he is going to try and convince his base that there was fraud.

This is how democracy dies of a thousand cuts.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
Trump is trying to manipulate the vote count in Florida. If either of the Rs lose, he is going to try and convince his base that there was fraud.

This is how democracy dies of a thousand cuts.
I am surprised his call for an end to the recount didn't get more coverage. I think it looms as one of his larger abuses of power in terms of it's potential harmful effects.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
^^^he’s warming up for the 2020 election.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
Ironic how the right wing gave Obama so much grief for making a negative comment about the service man who murdered an entire family in Iraq while he was off-duty. They said it prejudiced the mans trial. wow! Trump is so much beyond that, but not a peep out if the right wingers on how inappropriate it is to have the president weigh in on the business of other branches of the government.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:34pm PT
It’s better to not live or die for ideas.

No. Not when some are denied freedom.

And,

Yep, if you live or are willing to die for an idea, you are a fanatic.

No. If fanatic is used as a perjorative, you should maybe look at the perspectives of the user and the labeled. If you had said, "If you are willing to kill or do harm for an idea...", your argument may make me more agreeable.

Jerzy Popieluszko, Stephen Bikaw, Marlow's post.

With Trump, our war in the Mid East, inattention to global warming, we may have been shaken back into history.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:34pm PT
This is how a Republic dies of a thousand cuts.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:58pm PT
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/11/trump-weighs-removing-chief-staff-dhs-boss-reports-181113190403029.html?fbclid=IwAR30AXd3Vl--VnKmxVJLSN3dIHFdZFWZI6wlv2JSy5D_6hFJRryuXKZS87c
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 13, 2018 - 03:39pm PT
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside

Nov 13, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
Ironic how the right wing gave Obama so much grief for making a negative comment about the service man who murdered an entire family in Iraq while he was off-duty. They said it prejudiced the mans trial.

What are you talking about?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 04:11pm PT
I also converted to atheism.

Those damned atheists.

They knock on your door...

They harass you at airports...

They promise you drugs and orgies...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2018 - 04:30pm PT
dirtbag! Re your comment:

Those damned atheists.

They knock on your door...

They harass you at airports...

They promise you drugs and orgies...


Damn! All I ever got knocking on my door in Idaho was jehovah's Witlesses & Mormons, who didn't sing.

In my 20's, I started to warm-up to a gud-looking jehovah's Witless girl who had called on me twice. Luckily, I was hosting a more-outspoken friend for a few days & the jehovah's Witless girl visited again while he was home & I wasn't.

My friend Terry sternly warned her off & told her to never-ever visit again. Thank you Terry.

A married South-Idaho friend made the mistake of being nice to some Mormon missionaries who put him on the "visit frequently" list. That ended when my friend's wife made a point of greeting some missionaries nude, when they knocked on the door.

Heidi shucks all those people away quite efficiently & still keeps her clothes on.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 13, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside

Nov 13, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
Ironic how the right wing gave Obama so much grief for making a negative comment about the service man who murdered an entire family in Iraq while he was off-duty. They said it prejudiced the mans trial.

What are you talking about?

it is about "unlawful command influence"

I was wrong about the case Obama was accused in, it would have been the Lawrence Hutchins case, in which Hutchin's patrol executed an Iraqi father of 11 children. Although I do not find reference online to the controversy re Obama's comments, I distinctly remember it because Hutchins was held locally at the brig on Camp Pendleton and the case generated a bit of local press (we still had the semblance of an actual newspaper back then). Sec. of the Navy Ray Mabus was also accused of unlawful influence, but on appeal the court found that his comments came after sentencing.

A court subsequently did find that Obama exercised unlawful command influence in the military sexual assault scandal with this portion of a speech. The court held that if found guilty the defendants in the case could not be given a BCD or dishonorable discharge.

https://www.stripes.com/judge-obama-sex-assault-comments-unlawful-command-influence-1.225974

“The bottom line is: I have no tolerance for this,” Obama said, according to an NBC News story submitted as evidence by defense attorneys in the sexual assault cases. ‘I expect consequences,” Obama added. “So I don’t just want more speeches or awareness programs or training, but ultimately folks look the other way. If we find out somebody’s engaging in this, they’ve got to be held accountable — prosecuted, stripped of their positions, court martialed, fired, dishonorably discharged. Period.”

The same principle applies to pending cases the justice Dept is handling. The president's attempt to influence pending cases is undue influence, no different that "unlawful commend influence". there is no statute prohibiting these sorts of comments, but Trumps commentary on pending cases would be evidence for a claim that the prosecutor was influenced by the President (his boss).

Trump has a long history of prejudging cases inappropriately. I suppose Trump believes he has the same First Amendment rights as the common man. Trump neeeds to keep his pie hole shut on issues before the courts, but he is incapable, this is an attack on our system of justice.

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/his-own-words-presidents-attacks-courts
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 05:16pm PT
Moose. I agree in that I wish each of those 3 human beings I mentioned, should not have died for their ideas, but that's not the world we live in.

Do you have a perspective on the Velvet Revolution? Sometimes change comes quickly and irrevocably, however unwanted. If it comes slowly as a part of everyday life, the suffering less acute, is it remembered differently?

Truly, I respect your experience. One of my favorite encounters in Alaska, was meeting a Polish deck hand on a trawler. Built like a fireplug, he made it apparent that he would kick my ass if I left a fish hatch uncovered, but he did it in the nicest way. I think he knew I wouldn't, but the thought had to be shared. He would read his daughters kindergarten books after dinner, to teach himself English.

A lot of people from around the world, working for the meals, making the best of limited opportunities.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 13, 2018 - 05:21pm PT
Here is Worshington we had a 67.59% registered voter turnout. Thanks mail in ballots, no voting machines, lots of time to think about the issues, and no stamp required. This should be how every state holds elections; you can check online to see if your vote was counted, signatures required so no cheating, and a paper trail is there's a recount.

If I was running for President, which I might, I would make voting access, the right to vote, and gerrymandering major issues. Well, that and healthcare. And making wealthy people pay their fair share (I'm looking at you, Mr. No Pay Taxes for Ten Years Trump).
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 13, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
Jon Beck - Thanks for the clarification. I don't recall the case you discussed. I'm guessing criticism of Obama mostly involved those watching thew case. Not really a case of rightwing pundits showing hypocrisy vs Trump and his big mouth. But he does have a big mouth. And he sticks his foot in it more times in a month than most past Presidents did in a year.

Regarding the Mueller investigation, Trump's constant blather is excusable, considering it's primarily about him.

Looking forward to the next round of indictments.

-------------------------------


Mail-in ballots.

What a concept.

Safe.

Easy.

Thank you Washington State for showing us a better way.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
ok. my last post. please have the last word, really

I remember that some people said they were brainwashed.

I don't believe they were zealots.

With the destruction that was surrounding them, I believe that some knew they would not be reincarnated...

Extreme.

I believe that this too was ahimsa.



Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2018 - 07:08pm PT
The FBI reported today that hate crimes were up 17% in 2017, part of a rising trend for the last three years that makes them concerned.

It does strongly appear that Trump's frequent outbursts of hate & covert, & sometimes blatant support of right-wing haters, has empowered some of his base of bigots, racists, misogynists, homophobes, & those suffering Xenophobia, to start using violence against people from minorities.

From the N.Y. Times today:

Hate crime reports increased 17 percent last year from 2016, the F.B.I. said on Tuesday, rising for the third consecutive year as heated racial rhetoric and actions have come to dominate the news.

Of the more than 7,100 hate crimes reported last year, nearly three out of five were motivated by race and ethnicity, according to the annual report. Religion and sexual orientation were the other two primary motivators.

In addition to the tense political climate, the increase also points to a growing awareness among various law enforcement agencies of the importance of identifying and reporting hate crimes to the F.B.I.

Black people accounted for nearly half of hate crime victims last year, according to the F.B.I. Of those targeted based on religion, 58 percent were Jewish.

A man accused of fatally shooting 11 worshipers at a synagogue in Pittsburgh last month had taken to social media to accuse a Jewish organization that helps to resettle migrants of bringing “invaders” to “kill our people.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/us/hate-crimes-fbi-2017.html
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2018 - 07:49am PT
Poor, Poor, Donald Trump. He is soooooo-wronged, he has to keep throwing fits about how innocent he is & what a bunch of evil arseholes the Mueller team is.

Does anyone still believe he's innocent?


FOX NEWS Trump says Mueller investigators 'have gone absolutely nuts,' are 'a disgrace to our Nation'

President Trump on Thursday ripped into Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation, accusing investigators of having “gone absolutely nuts” and saying they are “a disgrace” to the country.

“The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts,” Trump tweeted. “They are screaming and shouting at people, horribly threatening them to come up with the answers they want. They are a disgrace to our Nation and don’t care how many lives the(y) ruin.”

He then focused his ire on Mueller, a former FBI director, who he accused of having conflicts of interest, though he did not elaborate on the accusation. Mueller served under both George W. Bush and Barack Obama.
“These are Angry People, including the highly conflicted Bob Mueller, who worked for Obama for 8 years. They won’t even look at all of the bad acts and crimes on the other side,” he said. “A TOTAL WITCH HUNT LIKE NO OTHER IN AMERICAN HISTORY!

The Associated Press reported this week that Trump advisers are concerned that Mueller has been stealthily compiling information and could soon issue new indictments (it has so far produced 32 criminal charges) or a highly critical final report.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-says-mueller-investigators-have-gone-absolutely-nuts-are-a-disgrace-to-our-nation/ar-BBPJYIN?li=BBnb7Kz&pfr=1

dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 07:51am PT
^^^Is Trump a wee bit worried?

He should be.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 08:14am PT
Just to say, I hope I didn't do anything to turn Lituya off. I remember someone saying who he is. Even if I'm mistaken, I believe it would still be a loss. Perspectives outside my own are no less valuable. Free civil discourse is unfortunately sometimes a privilege.

Again, maybe my confusion, but I remember a paper about plants, in distant mountains. Singular and tall, they either turned with, or faced the sun. Unusually, the authors included a local belief about people, the flowers? The paper was much richer for the perspective. It's a stretch to think he would know the paper specifically, but the perspective, no.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 15, 2018 - 08:16am PT
“The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts,” Trump tweeted. “They are screaming and shouting at people, horribly threatening them to come up with the answers they want. They are a disgrace to our Nation and don’t care how many lives the(y) ruin.”

Project much Donnie?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 15, 2018 - 08:33am PT
Time to start looking at 2020.

Hillary Clinton will reinvent herself as a “liberal firebrand” and mount a third presidential bid in 2020, her longtime adviser Mark Penn predicted in an op-ed for the Wall Street Journal published Monday.

Get ready for Hillary Clinton 4.0. More than 30 years in the making, this new version of Mrs. Clinton, when she runs for president in 2020, will come full circle—back to the universal-health-care-promoting progressive firebrand of 1994,” wrote Penn, who co-authored the op-ed with New York city council president Andrew Stein.

The former Secretary of State and twice-failed presidential candidate won’t “let a little thing like two stunning defeats stand in the way of her claim to the White House,” the pair wrote of Clinton’s resolve to defeat Trump in 2020.

Hillary 4.0?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 08:55am PT
Lol, founder. R.I.P., the actor who played him died recently.




I have no idea specifically who should/will win in 2020. I haven’t paid much attention to elections beyond 2018. My preference would be someone boring and competent. Whoever emerges from the pack will not be able to compete with trump for air time or in his preferred field of battle (see Warren, Elizabeth, pocahontas). But, I have a hunch that with 2 more years of trump drama, boring and competent will look extremely appealing.

Edit: no hillary!

Edit 2: no Biden! (Though he would be a great person to stump for the nominee.)

Edit 3: no Bernie!
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 09:36am PT
I'm gonna go out on limb here and predict 2020

Gillibrand vs Flake
Trump

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 09:50am PT
I’ve learned to think that maybe Trump is entering the Querencia phase of his presidency.

Poor Donald - if only he had learned to think that those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Me, I’ve learned to think that I’ve learned to think the best things. Sometimes I’ve even learned to think the same thing more than once.

A guy just won the lottery after playing the same numbers since 1993. Who knows, maybe I’ll be right this time around.

Happy Thursday people!
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 15, 2018 - 09:51am PT
^possibly.
I wouldn't rule out the two women of color either. Neither one is Oprah.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:14am PT
Edward—With respect to Hillary 4.0:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:33am PT
In some respects, Hillary would be one of the best choices to go up against Trump: she's way more qualified for the job than Trump is, and there can be no doubt that she'd push back hard against his constant wall of bullsh#t...and given her experience with him during the 2016 campaigns, she'd be doubly motivated to crush his sh#t. I can't think of any other Democrat potential candidate right now that would be as able to go toe to toe with him in the way that is needed.

But her sense of entitlement and 'destiny' around being POTUS is a real turn-off- she is about as establishment as it gets, and this country really needs a new, fresh direction. A great number of votes Trump received were more about votes against Hillary (rather than direct support for Trump), and that kind of negative view is not going to change. Many of those who voted against her by voting for Trump would likely just stay home...with a similar net effect.

Hillary, please don't run.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:51am PT
^^^Is Trump a wee bit worried?

He should be.

Why should he be? You think republicans will turn on him?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:52am PT

Edit: no hillary!

Edit 2: no Biden! (Though he would be a great person to stump for the nominee.)

Edit 3: no Bernie!

How about just somebody who would still be under 65 when they are sworn in in 2021?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:55am PT
Given the electoral college, Trump could well win again in 2020 and lose the popular vote a second time.

I imagine his mental shape by 2024 would be much worse than even Reagan's dementia was by the end of his administration. Of course, Trump supporters won't be able to tell the difference.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:59am PT
"Why should he be? You think republicans will turn on him?"


Yes, absolutely they will.

The right combination of Mueller investigative findings, along with a slacking economy, will certainly be enough to get a significant portion of Republicans in Congress to start to move against him. Though many have enjoyed drafting behind him, there are also plenty of Republicans that are as sick of his blathering sh#t as anyone.

The voters will do the same: sure, his base will turn out for him even if he shoots someone in Times Square, but there are more than enough 2016 Trump voters out there who would bail on him (for similar reasons as Congressional Republicans) if a reasonable alternative was presented.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 11:15am PT
I have no faith in republicans to ever turn on him. They’re hopelessly corrupt. Chickenshits all of them.

But, unless he is pardoned, he might face charges when he leaves office. Also, many states could charge him if state violations are revealed.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 15, 2018 - 11:23am PT
Anyone care to bet on the 2020 election?

I'll put $50 on Trump NOT winning the 2020 President election!

Loser donates to a cause picked by the winner.

Edit: Bet is cancelled if Trump is forced out of office due to criminal wrongdoing.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 11:28am PT
Too soon to take a bet like that, Edward. Though there are at least one or two Trumpsters here that just might take you up on it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 11:30am PT
"They’re hopelessly corrupt."

That's exactly why some of them will turn on him. This is GOP politics, after all...the guy in office is supported only to the extent they support their own interests.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 11:55am PT
The problem is that the gop can’t survivie without trump’s hard core base, and they will never abandon him. We’ve seen them concoct all kinds of loony excuses and stories in his defense. Ultimately this is why the gop is a slowly sinking ship. They are completely dependent on the faux news/breitbart folks who are, to put it mildly, a fact-challenged yet limited demographic group. But, a small majority of the electorate are completely repulsed by this bigoted, crooked nuttery.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:10pm PT
Well, we'll see how it goes. I do believe there is a tipping point where a significant number of Republicans will jump ship, but whether or not we reach that point is the real question. If conditions stay more or less like they are right now, that probably won't happen.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
Trump NOT winning the 2020 President election!

Betting odds are at -170 currently.
Bet $170 to win $100 if Trump loses.
WBraun

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:26pm PT
The system is and has always been rigged to support the ruling class.

The ruling class is corrupt and st00pid in this modern age.

The ignorant public is even st00pidier than ever by the way of their retarded corrupt controlled media.

You politard loons will never learn as you yourselves are swimming in the very same st00pid swamp ......
couchmaster

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:28pm PT

Edward, folks would get better odds on Predictit. https://www.predictit.org/

....and in an attempt to help you, a bit of free advise is to never bet against Trump. That's what I've learned, and it cost me some real money. Not as much as I made betting he'd win the 2016 election at 3 to 1 odds...but enough to learn my lesson. In fact, I just bought into NO on the "Will Trump be impeached in his first term" market. 100 shares at $62 a share. If he gets impeached I'm out $62 bucks. I expect that those shares will be crap when the Mueller investigation starts in on Trump, in which case I'm planning on loading up with more shares. You can make a lot of money off guys like some of these ST idiots who bet with their hearts and not their minds.

I just sold most of my "Will Trump be President at the end of 2018 at $.97/share, I'd bought them in the .60/range not long back. Remember to read the rules carefully before you toss your $ratch into the pot. Sometimes the title differs or the rules have a trick to it.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
Thanks couch - After Apogee talked about Hillary being the only Dem able to hold her own against Trump and August saying he'll win because of the Electoral College I just put it out there.

Predictit is interesting. Kind of an ante up public sentiment site.

Right now the odds of Trump being impeached next year are 1:2.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:58pm PT
Setting aside the near-rabid anti-Hillary sentiment that exists on both sides, even if she's got the chutzpah to take on Trump, I'm not sure that kind of drama is of great enough interest to create a winning majority. The amount of stoooopid drama that has been a part of American politics has wildly accelerated in the last two years, and I'm not sure watching anyone match Trump's blather is appealing to key voters (with the exception of the psycho-Trumpsters, that is).
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Nov 15, 2018 - 01:29pm PT
I'm going on the theory that in most things other than Real Estate,
I always back the loserI said it somewhere else I'm not a betting man; having missed the Vietnam draft. . .
I already won
Gambling - Taking risks (climbing) that's another story
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 03:27pm PT
Although I know Hillary Clinton is qualified to be president, and would vote for her if she was the nominee, I hope she doesn't go for it. 2016 was such a toxic campaign, I wish for a candidate that is not attached to that time for the 2020 campaign. Bernie and Hilary should definitely campaign FOR whomever gets the nomination, but we need to move forward.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 15, 2018 - 03:28pm PT

......Hillary being the only Dem able to hold her own against Trump

I'll pay Hillary $50 not to run and I suspect lots of other people would too. Maybe I should start a GoFundMe campaign with that goal; wonder how much it would raise? Hmmmmm.

https://www.gofundme.com/help-hillary-not-run-for-president&rcid=r01-154232507889-b20628b505a34cf3&pc=em_co_campmgmt_w

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 15, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
"Why should he be? You think republicans will turn on him?"


Yes, absolutely they will.

The right combination of Mueller investigative findings, along with a slacking economy, will certainly be enough to get a significant portion of Republicans in Congress to start to move against him. Though many have enjoyed drafting behind him, there are also plenty of Republicans that are as sick of his blathering sh#t as anyone.

The voters will do the same: sure, his base will turn out for him even if he shoots someone in Times Square, but there are more than enough 2016 Trump voters out there who would bail on him (for similar reasons as Congressional Republicans) if a reasonable alternative was presented.

If Trump squashes the Mueller investigation, their will be outrage, outrage I tell you, for a few days. And then R's will get back on board.

The slacking economy is the fault of Obama and the new Dems in the House, and China stealing our jobs, and its all fake news anyway. The economy has never been better for the little guy and the Washington swamp has been completely drained, and anyway, what about Benghazi and the millions of terrorists from central America coming to rape your daughters...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 15, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
Great page of opinions right here.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 15, 2018 - 04:25pm PT
Moose, I did. And thanks for the donation!

https://www.gofundme.com/help-hillary-not-run-for-president&rcid=r01-154232507889-b20628b505a34cf3&pc=em_co_campmgmt_w
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 15, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
Damn Moose! Any money will actually go to a good cause.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 08:12pm PT
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/15/california-elections-results-mimi-walters-katie-porter-995504

Southern California Rep. Mimi Walters was ousted Thursday night, the latest House Republican to lose their seat in the formerly deep-red Orange County.

The Associated Press called the 45th congressional district race with Democrat Katie Porter leading Walters, a two-term incumbent who previously served in the California senate, by just over 6,000 votes as ballots continue to be counted.

So far, Democrats have flipped five seats in the state that are held or were previously held by Republicans. The party needed a net of 23 seats to retake the House and so far has gained 37 seats, with four races still too close to call. One of those races, the 39th congressional district, a seat previously held by Ed Royce, is now trending towards a pick up as Democrat Gil Cisneros leads Republican Young Kim by 941 votes with ballots continuing to be counted in the populous Orange County, which borders Los Angeles County.



On a campaign of Medicare for All, passing a ban on assault weapons, overturning President Donald Trump and the GOP's tax plan. In Orange County.

Maybe there's hope, yet.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
More proof that our President is seriously insane & seriously inane.

From Esquire Nov 15, 2018

The President* Is in an Outright Frenzy Over the Mueller Probe

The Mueller probe-what he knows and about whom and when in god's name is he going to tell the rest of us-hangs over everything in our politics now. In many ways, it has entered the realm of legend, since the facts Mueller and his team have accumulated remain their own private property. The investigation now has taken on a talismanic quality; the great Democratic sweep in the recent midterm elections have presented us with an incoming House majority that will take a more active interest in Mueller's findings than the departing Republican majority would have.

Because of this, and before they even discover where to get a decent takeout lunch in the Capitol, the new members of Congress enter into their jobs knowing that a huge and consequential series of acts already predetermined are about to fall upon them, but nobody knows exactly what those will be, and most of the newcomers are positively nerve-struck at the idea of talking about what those acts might be.

Even worse, down at Camp Runamuck, the target of the investigation is shredding his last nerves and flinging them out onto the electric Twitter machine in what only can be called an outright frenzy. To wit, and just from Thursday morning:

From Trump:

The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts. They are screaming and shouting at people, horribly threatening them to come up with the answers they want. They are a disgrace to our Nation and don't…....care how many lives the ruin....These are Angry People, including the highly conflicted Bob Mueller, who worked for Obama for 8 years. They won’t even look at all of the bad acts and crimes on the other side. A TOTAL WITCH HUNT LIKE NO OTHER IN AMERICAN HISTORY!...Universities will someday study what highly conflicted (and NOT Senate approved) Bob Mueller and his gang of Democrat thugs have done to destroy people. Why is he protecting Crooked Hillary, Comey, McCabe, Lisa Page & her lover, Peter S., and all of his friends on the other side.


I pity the poor staffer who's tasked every morning with scouring the White House trying to find the president*'s hinges. All of this is simply a farrago of Foxified nonsense. Mueller is a Republican who also worked for the Bush Administration and, oh, why bother?

There is, however, a sense of something big suddenly Closer Than It Appears in the White House side-mirrors. And the new members of the House are going to have to get comfortable with the fact that history is going to be dropped on them in one big and unwieldy lump as soon as they're all sworn in. They may have come to Washington to work on infrastructure or education or healthcare or the opioid epidemic, but confronting a renegade profiteer (and, very likely, criminal) president* is going to tie up a great deal of their first term in Congress.

Because the president* is losing it bigly, and because Bob Mueller, with no expression on his face, is reaching across his desk for another file.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/president-outright-frenzy-over-mueller-180800218.html
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Nov 15, 2018 - 09:46pm PT
“The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts,” Trump tweeted. “They are screaming and shouting at people, horribly threatening them to come up with the answers they want. They are a disgrace to our Nation and don’t care how many lives the(y) ruin.”

Wow, sounds like the Donald is describing himself . . . coincidence? Doubtful.

When do we call in for back-up?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:44am PT
From Trump:

The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts.

Trump may be batshit crazy and incredibly childish. But he's got a point. This issue has primarily been about Trump colluding with Russian officials to win the presidency. It's been investigated for over two years.

We're still waiting for a member of Trump's team to be convicted of collusion.

Who has been charged with colluding with the Russians?

Is Roger Stone the smoking gun?


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 16, 2018 - 07:51am PT
EdwardT, I'm thinking you'll be as wrong about this as you were about celebrating Kim Young's victory a few pages back.

Mind you, this report comes from a far left wing commie website:
Republican congressional candidate Young Kim, who just days ago was poised to be the first Korean-American woman in Congress as she led a closely contested California House race, is accusing her opponent of "harassing and intimidating” vote counters as her lead has disappeared.

Kim is vying to replace retiring Rep. Ed Royce, R-Calif., in California’s 39th District, which includes part of the state's more Republican Orange County. Last week, she held about a 3-point lead over Democrat Gil Cisneros with about 150,000 votes counted.

But since then, that lead vanished, with Cisneros taking a 941-vote as of late Thursday.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republican-young-kim-loses-lead-in-california-house-race-accuses-opponent-gil-cisneros-of-harassing-vote-counters
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:01am PT
I think this really is the Querencia.. the rest has all been foreplay.

Ugh...Is it the Quakers who say some things must be witnessed? I shudder. Still, I think I've already paid, so hopefully Mueller will bring the money shot. Looking for some new lows. Pence?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:02am PT
Acosta gets his press credentials back judge rules. Judge was appointed by Trump last year.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/16/media/cnn-trump-lawsuit-hearing/index.html
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2018 - 08:26am PT
Edward T! Per your above post, you mention about the Mueller investigation:

It's been investigated for over two years.

You really do need to quit watching Faux News.

Per Wikipedia:

The investigation, since it began May 17, 2017, has been conducted by the United States Department of Justice Special Counsel's Office, headed by Robert Mueller, a former Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

That is almost exactly 18 months. It just seems like over 2 years to Trumpists.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:26am PT
I'm not holding my breath that there will a smoking gun in Mueller's report that shows clear collusion directly on Trump's part. But there is likely to be lots of other really dirty dirt, with more indictments of his inner circle, including his family.

Mueller has been incredibly disciplined throughout this whole nasty process, and I'm confident whatever he comes forward with will be legally solid, no matter what the Trumpsters think about it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:34am PT
Edward, I know you weren't a Trump voter, and not a great fan of his, so why do you discount the dozens of indictments that have come down from Mueller's investigation? Even if you think the scope of his investigation was unreasonably ill-defined, the indictments and convictions that have occurred are serious, and quite real. Should they simply be disregarded?

C'mon. If these kinds of findings occurred with a Democrat, you'd be furious.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:36am PT
Here you go Fritzie:

In late July 2016, "the CIA had set up a special group with the NSA and FBI... to investigate the extent of Russian intervention in the presidential election." Former CIA director John Brennan then "ensured that all information about links between the Trump campaign and people working for or on behalf of Russian intelligence went to the FBI."

Love the convenient ignorance.

Keep up the good work.

Edward, I know you weren't a Trump voter, and not a great fan of his, so why do you discount the dozens of indictments that have come down from Mueller's investigation?

How many dozens of indictments involve Trump campaign members?

How many indictments involve wrongdoing as campaign members?

C'mon. If these kinds of findings occurred with a Democrat, you'd be furious.

You do have a penchant for ignorant assumptions.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:47am PT
Edward, an investigation is started when there's a lot of smoke around an issue. That's why it's investigated. At the end of the investigation, if it's done thoroughly and methodically, the results could theoretically point in any direction, and can involve many people associated with the process.

Isn't that pretty much what's happening here? You argument is cherry-picking: you are arguing that because one specific result hasn't been found, the whole process is invalid.

Again: if this process was going on against a sitting Democrat POTUS, I seriously doubt any Republican would have any criticisms about the results thusfar.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 16, 2018 - 09:53am PT
Acosta gets his press credentials back judge rules. Judge was appointed by Trump last year.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/16/media/cnn-trump-lawsuit-hearing/index.html

FoxNews actually filed an amicus supporting CNN on this one. The issue hasn't been decided--the judge only issued a two week restraining order.

No matter, you have to admit Acosta is a childish tool. I doubt he'll be called on again.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 16, 2018 - 10:11am PT
Acosta was childish? now that is funny. Judge ruled in his favor because of a high likelihood that he will ultimately succeed at trial. This from a Trump appointed judge. Actually Acosta gets a due process hearing on the issue, not sure what form that will take but you can be sure the outcome will be contested.

So what if he never gets called on again, him just being in the room pisses Trump off.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 16, 2018 - 10:30am PT
I think he meant Acosta is childish in general. He did come across as childish or at least overly overtly woke when he insisted that Trump call on a women next. Although there may have been context to that which we weren't aware.
Even if he chooses not to go back winning this case is important.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 16, 2018 - 04:47pm PT
Speaking of voter fraud....

A Republican senator was just recorded stating that she supported plans to make it more difficult for citizens of the opposing party to vote.

"Maybe we want to make it [voting] just a little more difficult. And I think that’s a great idea."
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:34pm PT
Trump said this of Mueller's written questions for him:

"My lawyers don't write answers. I write answers," he said. "I was asked a series of questions. I've answered them very easily."

Exactly what the questions covered is not known. However, Mr Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani told the Washington Post on Thursday he had not answered questions relating to the period after his election, saying some were "possible traps", while others were "unnecessary" or "irrelevant".

LOL, reminds me of this scene:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

I know everything. Ask me anything!
Pass, next question.
Pass, next question.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
Trump's interpretation of decorum means reporters can refer to the first lady as " Horse Face"...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:47pm PT
Trump didn't like Judge Timothy Kelly's ruling, so he's going to write new 'rules' around what makes for appropriate 'decorum' amongst journalists at press conferences:


'A sword hanging over our heads': Trump discovers new weapon against media
The administration is drawing up rules for White House reporters' behavior, and the president said if journalists don't follow them, 'we'll end up back in court, and we'll win.'
By JASON SCHWARTZ 11/16/2018 06:13 PM EST

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/16/trump-jim-acosta-cnn-999675

(Excerpts)

After a judge ruled that the White House violated the CNN correspondent’s right to due process by stripping him of his press badge, press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders declared that the administration was drawing up new rules to govern reporters’ behavior — and a process for booting them if those rules are broken.

“We have to create rules and regulations for conduct,” Trump told Chris Wallace in a Fox News Sunday interview, echoing Sanders’ announcement. “It's not a big deal. If he misbehaves, we'll throw him out or we’ll stop the news conference.”

"If they don't listen to the rules and regulations," he told reporters at a separate event at the White House, "we'll end up back in court, and we'll win."

It was Trump and Sanders, after all, who escalated the Acosta situation after a dispute at a news conference by yanking his press pass and, to justify it, pointing to an apparently altered video of his interaction with a White House aide.

Federal Judge Timothy Kelly, a Trump appointee, ruled that the administration had denied Acosta due process in revoking his security pass, citing shifting White House explanations, no clear process, no advance notification to Acosta and no chance for him to rebut the allegations. Kelly ordered the White House to return Acosta’s credential on a temporary basis, while the rest of the case moves forward.

Now, the administration says it's creating a process for banning reporters who do not show “decorum” at events.




Decorum.

Let that word settle in for a moment, with consideration to it's source.
WBraun

climber
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
You fools keep throwing your minds into the dumpster of st00pid with all this politard horesh!t ....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:52pm PT
Says the Lloyd bridges of dumpster diving...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:53pm PT
Nah, Werner, we're mostly just here to troll you.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 16, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
haha lloyd bridges of dumpster diving
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 17, 2018 - 04:15am PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Nov 16, 2018 - 08:47am PT
Edward, an investigation is started when there's a lot of smoke around an issue. That's why it's investigated. At the end of the investigation, if it's done thoroughly and methodically, the results could theoretically point in any direction, and can involve many people associated with the process.

Isn't that pretty much what's happening here? You argument is cherry-picking: you are arguing that because one specific result hasn't been found, the whole process is invalid.

Cherry picking? Really?

APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSEL
TO INVESTIGATE RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE WITH THE
2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND RELATED MATTERS

The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James 8. Comey in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:
(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 17, 2018 - 04:25am PT
SomebodyAnybody

Big Wall climber
Torrance

Nov 16, 2018 - 05:33pm PT
There is no question about "collusion", though that's a bit of a red herring in that the criminal charges are likely to conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to receive stolen property and who knows what else.

The "collusion" has been shown already. People like Edward seems to misunderstand how large criminal enterprises are "rolled up". You methodically climb the ladder, squeezing the pawns and rolling one after another up the chain. It's how the NY mob was approached, how major international drug cartels are approached. "Oh no, there's been no prosecution". Gates - flipped. Manafort - flipped. Papadapa - flipped. Cohen - flipped.

No collusion you say? That's amusingly naive at best.

Donnie "the chinless wonder" Jr: "If it's what you say, I love it. Especially later in the summer".

Donnie Jr then went on to meet with the Russians in an attempt to get stolen emails. There is no controversy about whether this happened. Manafort was in the room, Kushner was in the room. Even Steve Bannon has called this "treasonous".

Well, sh#t fire Maybelle... that's an impressive bit of blather. Who knew you were partial to Steve Bannon? LOL

We're still waiting for a member of Trump's team to be convicted of collusion.

Has anyone associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump been indicted for colluding/conspiring with the Russian government?
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 17, 2018 - 08:01am PT
Cherry picking? Really?
yes. in fact your quote directly under this where you bolded a section and ignored the others is the poster child for cherry picking
(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 17, 2018 - 10:57am PT
The American general public is so unaware of realities that trying to participate in discussions is just a frustrating distraction. I used to think that rock climbers might be a little further along in the learning process.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 17, 2018 - 12:54pm PT
These political threads are only useful to me for philosophical concerns, and most are rightfully sh!tcanned...but here goes...

One of my basic disagreements with my many progressive friends is their belief that society must be fundamentally transformed (A major theme of Obama's first presidential campaign).
We are living during the sweet spot of history, on one of the sweet spots of the planet, and some would like to upset the apple cart? Yikes!.

This 6 minute youtube exhibits Jordan Peterson's wisdom (IMHO) concerning his skepticism toward political correctness and the inevitable unintended consequences of social policy.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 17, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
Hey Moose,
First, I tend toward less control by government.
Second, in all advertising it's buyer beware.
And if politicians are being bought, who's selling?

Edit: How bout full disclosure of all contributions?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 17, 2018 - 08:45pm PT
One of my basic disagreements with my many progressive friends is their belief that society must be fundamentally transformed (A major theme of Obama's first presidential campaign).
We are living during the sweet spot of history, on one of the sweet spots of the planet, and some would like to upset the apple cart? Yikes!.

Larry, that was perfect. Nailed it. Trim tabs--but not a hard pull on the rudder.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 17, 2018 - 08:51pm PT
And if politicians are being bought, who's selling?


Obviously everybody!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 17, 2018 - 08:54pm PT
"One of my basic disagreements with my many progressive friends is their belief that society must be fundamentally transformed "


I dunno about the idea of seeing society 'fundamentally transformed', but I do think this society is a long way from being as good as it could be. Why settle for less?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 17, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
I dunno about the idea of seeing society 'fundamentally transformed', but I do think this society is a long way from being as good as it could be. Why settle for less?

I think the problem isn't that the posters above are against making things better, but rather that they are -- rightfully -- worried that people calling for fundamental transformation of current society don't understand the law of unintended consequences.

As one of them said, "trim tabs, but don't yank on the rudder." Or, as I would put it, if you try to make a big freight train take a hard right (or left) turn, all you'll get is derailment.

Yes, there is plenty that could be changed for the better, but given that things are not really bad, incremental change is better than revolution.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 17, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
"incremental change is better than revolution."

Unfortunately, the loudest voices on the left advocate for upending everything, and the loudest voices on the right advocate no change at all (or seemingly, regression).
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 17, 2018 - 09:50pm PT
Unfortunately, the loudest voices on the left advocate for upending everything, and the loudest voices on the right advocate no change at all (or seemingly, regression).

It's actually the other way around. Trump got elected because he promised to upend the apple cart and drain the swamp. Starting 40 years ago the right decided to upend the New Deal, and they have succeeded.

As for the left, there is no left in this country.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 17, 2018 - 10:27pm PT
I dunno about the idea of seeing society 'fundamentally transformed', but I do think this society is a long way from being as good as it could be. Why settle for less?

Because most of the prescriptions being offered are worse than the condition.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 17, 2018 - 10:36pm PT
Status quo of many of the problems in our society is not acceptable either, Lituya.

Those who vocally resist or denounce change invite conflict from those who see obvious, inarguable problems in our society. I suspect that offerings of changes that involve any kind of solution...even if the process is incremental...would go a long way towards gaining broad support.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 17, 2018 - 11:01pm PT
status quo also WILL NOT WORK for our children and definitely not for their children.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:36am PT
Too general of a statement to discuss.

What issues should be tackedled incrementally and what should be tackled radically?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:17am PT
Too general of a statement to discuss.

What issues should be tackled incrementally and what should be tackled radically?

What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans? What would you recommend to improve those issues?

For me:

End Political divide - No clue. Maybe corporate, religious and social leaders get together and negotiate a plan to unite this country. Then tell the politicians to play ball.

Top issues:

End the polemic rhetoric. quit catering to the fringes.
Enact law overturning Citizens United.
End gerrymandering. non-partisan districts/boundaries, nationwide.

Low wages Incrementally raise minimum wages to a reasonable level. Maybe $20/hr by 2028. Partial increases for workers under age 21.

Illegal immigration - Fix the damn problem and then obey the laws. Dreamers get a shot at citizenship. Illegals register with the government. Allowed to obtain green card, with strict rules for maintaining green card status. Allowed to apply for citizenship. In the back of the line. End chain migration. Seal the border. Penalized governments providing sanctuary.

Affordable healthcare - Obamacare was a good, but flawed, step in the right direction. Don't repeal it. Fix it!

Environment - Continue to raise CAFE standards. Harsher rules for polluters - can you say coal ash spill? Raise fuel taxes 20 cents/yr for five hears. Two thirds for infrastructure. Remainder for green energy.

Guns - Register all guns. Required gun safety course certification. Additional training and background checks for "collectors". Get rid of semi-automatic weapons. Criminalize possession of converted semiautomatics.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:18am PT
An easy, obvious one that needs a radical change:

Quality of national leadership. One can implement many of the policies of the current administration without being a leader who acts like a d#@&%ebag to almost anyone.

Of course, Americans get the leadership they vote for, and apparently there are plenty who actually like and respect this style of leadership. That's much more of a reflection on us and the society we all participate in.

Edit:
That's a very good list, Edward...I can get behind much/most of it.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:26am PT
EdwardT, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

EdwardT/Norton 2020!
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:31am PT
The kind of person who can beat Trump and unite the nation is someone who would/can avoid going toe to toe with him. In 2016, we kept looking for someone to put him in his place. It didn't and it's not gonna happen. He's too skilled a trash talker. It needs to be someone who's not gonna play his games. The best example I can think of is Barack Obama. His '08 campaign was mostly positive. Hope and Change. Not sure which prospective candidate fits the bill. Less sure if such a person would win the nomination.

i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:36am PT
Barack Obama. His '08 campaign was mostly positive. Hope and Change. Not sure which prospective candidate fits the bill.
If only there was another Obama...
Michelle 2020
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:44am PT
The same Michelle who just said:

Back in '08, "there were people who didn't know what a black woman looked and sounded like"?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:48am PT
Orange Country, California, one of THE most republican counties in the US

goes 100% Democrat in every single Congressional District

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:50am PT
I think the healthcare issue is one that needs more of a radical change than incremental- the underlying weakness in it as it stands (and the ACA only perpetuates) is the profit-driven way it operates with insurance companies as middle man. The ACA doesn't really address this at all.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:51am PT
The same Michelle who just said:

Back in '08, "there were people who didn't know what a black woman looked and sounded like"?
yes that one. I'm confused, is that statement bad in some way that I'm not getting?
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:14am PT
I am curious why guns are the issue the left makes them out to be...

Crime, violent and otherwise have never been lower. We live in the safest society in the history of the world.

And yet, the media drives us into a frenzy to blame an inanimate object for an imagined fear.

No other inanimate object is blamed when there is a perceived wrong...


I wonder why that is? Could it involve power of the governed vs. the governing?
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:22am PT
EdwardT, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

me too, amazing.

The kind of person who can beat Trump and unite the nation is someone who would/can avoid going toe to toe with him.

not as sure on this one.
I think that if someone went toe to toe with him, and questioned his reasoning, even trump's supporters might take a step back.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:26am PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands

Nov 18, 2018 - 07:48am PT
Orange Country, California, one of THE most republican counties in the US

goes 100% Democrat in every single Congressional District

That Blue Wave was kind of a nice swell.

Compared to Clinton's and Obama's first midterm, this election was MEH.

Clinton lost 8 in the Senate and 54 in the House.

Obama lost 6 and 63. Highest loss of a party in a House midterm election since 1938, and the largest House swing since 1948.

Trump lost 40 House seats. Significantly less than Clinton and Obama. And he gained in the Senate.

Looking back at all the anti-Trump anger we've seen over the last two years, it appears that moderate Americans aren't as concerned about Trump as we're led to believe.

Elections are the only polls that really matter.

Edit: Your graphic implies Orange County overwhelming supported Trump in 2016, even though Hillary received more votes. Hmm.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:44am PT
EdwardT, you need to take into account the significant gerrymandering that went on in 2010. That was at least partly responsible to the big GOP gains during the Obama term, and the Dem gains this year were in spite of that.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:48am PT
The Democrats just won a massive wave election. The depth and breadth of that wave has become more clear, day by day, but Democrats picked up more House seats than in any election since 1974, just a few months after Richard Nixon resigned the presidency in disgrace.

Which may be a clue and a portent. As in this can get even worse for the Republicans.

Democrats also flipped seven governorships, at least eight state legislative chambers and over three hundred state legislative seats, and now hold a majority of state attorneys general. Their overall national popular vote margin for the House rivals that of the largest Republican waves, with only unethical, undemocratic gerrymandering preventing their seat gain from being even larger. Even more ominously for Republicans, the usual national political battleground that is the suburbs swung hard for Democrats, and it's hard to see it swinging back even toward the middle anytime soon.

Only an ignorant racist derp would call that at a "meh"
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:54am PT
I am curious why guns are the issue the left makes them out to be...
Parkland, Sante Fe High School, Thousand Oaks, Umpqua, Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh come to mind. But each year those make up a small slice of gun related deaths, which including suicides tops 30k. The fact that many of the deaths are children plays a large role. And it's not just the left. the right makes a huge deal about it too. preventing any sort of regulation is a central pillar of their platform.


As long as we're talking media fear mongering frenzy, how's the brown invasion at our border going?? the caravan's coming to gitcha!!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:57am PT
I did hear from one of “them” (lol),that in a Republic,the House is more representative of the populace than any other branch.

So ,that ,does not matter.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 09:06am PT
Blue Wave Results:

Trump - Still President

Senate - Still GOP control. Gained one seat.

Governorships - Gop leads 27 -23

State trifectas - GOP leads 22-14

State legislatures - GOP control 31 to Dems 18


i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 18, 2018 - 09:13am PT
comparing senate elections in different years is difficult unless you go and look at how many seats were up for grabs in each election. everyone knew it would be hard for democrats to gain since they were defending 26 seats this election vs the republicans 9
dirtbag

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:00am PT
The Democrats just won a massive wave election. The depth and breadth of that wave has become more clear, day by day, but Democrats picked up more House seats than in any election since 1974, just a few months after Richard Nixon resigned the presidency in disgrace.

You have to remember, too, that republicans were running during a strong economy. If it dips, even just a bit, they are going to be in a lot of trouble next time.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:04am PT
Edward: great list on the previous page.

I don’t think I could add much, but I would make strengthening voting rights, protection of various democratic institutions, and ethics as areas needing radical reform. These are topics that should generate bipartisan interest, and as the last two years have revealed, need immediate, far reaching reforms.

dirtbag

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:06am PT
The kind of person who can beat Trump and unite the nation is someone who would/can avoid going toe to toe with him. In 2016, we kept looking for someone to put him in his place. It didn't and it's not gonna happen. He's too skilled a trash talker. It needs to be someone who's not gonna play his games. The best example I can think of is Barack Obama. His '08 campaign was mostly positive. Hope and Change. Not sure which prospective candidate fits the bill. Less sure if such a person would win the nomination.

100%

I hope everyone running in 2020 looked long and hard at Elizabeth Warren’s recent Pocahontas belly flop.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:29am PT
Ed - Considering where the Republicans were prior to the election I would not call those numbers a success.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2018 - 10:30am PT
Per Norton's post on Orange County going blue:

Orange Country, California, one of THE most republican counties in the US

goes 100% Democrat in every single Congressional District

One of the reasons that happened is, a lot of Christian conservatives have fled Orange County. Unfortunately for Idaho, a schist-pot of them have moved here.

Here's a link to an article on the subject in High Country News.

How right-wing emigrants conquered North Idaho
https://www.hcn.org/issues/45.8/how-right-wing-emigrants-conquered-north-idaho
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:30am PT
AntiChrist:
Makes way more sense to regress to time when you needed a dime to call someone and someone was home so you leave a message. A time when black men were hung for looking at a white woman the wrong way. A time when nobody even knew what MPG stood for.
Of course it needs to be transformed you idiot.

I remember even before answering machines, ya just had to call back later...and party lines were great fun for kids.
Black men have been my room mates and friends my whole life...they even let me look at black women the "wrong" way.
My first car being a VW without gas gauge, with spare 1 gallon tank lever down low, I always calculated my MPG...self interest.

Sorry for the regression...back to politics
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 11:15am PT
Sorry, EdwardT, but you're way off base with most if not all of the items your list. Minimum wage laws are enslavement--and render unions irrelevant. Why the #$%& should illegals get a shot at citizenship? Ever. And the last one on your list is a non-starter. Most will never register their guns with the government. I sure won't.

There you go.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 11:17am PT
Orange Country, California, one of THE most republican counties in the US goes 100% Democrat in every single Congressional District

Gerrymandering! Bwaaaaaak!! Voter suppression!! Bwaaaaaaaaak!!!! The Russians!!!! BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAK!!!!!!!!
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 12:25pm PT
Sorry, EdwardT, but you're way off base with most if not all of the items your list. Minimum wage laws are enslavement--and render unions irrelevant. Why the #$%& should illegals get a shot at citizenship? Ever. And the last one on your list is a non-starter. Most will never register their guns with the government. I sure won't.

There you go.

Going down my list:

You're fine with the current level of political rhetoric? Really?

Fine with the extremely wealthy dominating campaign messaging and the candidates they support?

You're really okay with obscene gerrymandering? It's little more than exploitation by those in power. It's not representative of the people.

No minimum wage increases? It used to be kind of a safety net for the lowest earners. Now, what's the endgame?

Illegal immigration - What's your solution?

Healthcare - What's your solution? Before Obamacare a significant number of Americans royally screwed. You're okay with going back to that?

Guns - Why shouldn't we have reasonably requirements for owners of deadly weapons? Why should guns be to rare exception to just laws?

It's easy to say "you're wrong". Let's hear your solutions.

Or, back to my initial query:

What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans? What would you recommend to improve those issues?

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 18, 2018 - 12:52pm PT
The 49th district in CA was an extreme example of gerrymandering. It is mostly in North San Diego with a small part of Orange County tacked on to insure it stayed red. That piece of OC is separated by almost 20 miles of empty land called Camp Pendleton. Without redistricting it went blue, easily.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
Dear Leader has made a Tweet in which he calls Adam Schiff "Little Adam Schitt."Seriously - what the hell is wrong with this dude?

On the other hand, he'd fit right in here when the political threads get sideways.

Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 01:09pm PT
One of the reasons that happened is, a lot of Christian conservatives have fled Orange County. Unfortunately for Idaho, a schist-pot of them have moved here.

Interesting. Having been spawned there (in O.C), and having left, I never heard the news. I think the Crystal Cathedral was sold. Did Rick Warren take a fall? Folks brandishing symbols of wealth must still abound. Maybe the realities of living on a SSI check changed some views.

I thought demographic shifts, boomer kids, and migrants might have mattered.

Anyway, Fritz, sorry if you get tired of the transplants. Make a trip to Santa Cruz. When you get here we'll pull the tires off your rig, and make you some sandals, make sure you stay for a while.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Nov 18, 2018 - 03:26pm PT
"I didn't know my AG appointee was a Mueller critic." Really? That makes him an idiot or a liar. Oh, wait...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 18, 2018 - 04:42pm PT
Here’s an election result.

This is a picture of a celebration of house republicans after the House voted to eliminate the Affordable Care Act. Th X’d out Republicans were voted out of office by their constituents.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 18, 2018 - 05:00pm PT
^^^^^

That's a photo of the Republicans celebrating after they denied health insurance to 23,000,000 American citizens.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
You're fine with the current level of political rhetoric? Really?

Fine with the extremely wealthy dominating campaign messaging and the candidates they support?

You're really okay with obscene gerrymandering? It's little more than exploitation by those in power. It's not representative of the people.

No minimum wage increases? It used to be kind of a safety net for the lowest earners. Now, what's the endgame?

Illegal immigration - What's your solution?

Healthcare - What's your solution? Before Obamacare a significant number of Americans royally screwed. You're okay with going back to that?

Guns - Why shouldn't we have reasonably requirements for owners of deadly weapons? Why should guns be to rare exception to just laws?

Edward, I like your balanced positions generally, but your left-of-center wish list came as a surprise. IMO, compromise only works when both side participate--and your list compromises a lot without asking for or suggesting anything in return.

In order:

--Political rhetoric waxes and wanes. Are you suggesting it be restricted in some way? I hope not.

--If the 'extremely wealthy' are, in fact, dominating political discourse they're doing it to help liberals. 2018 Democrats certainly didn't rely on grass-roots donations to outspend Republicans. Gerrymandering happens on both sides. I live in a newly-created district gerrymandered by WA Democrats.

--Minimum wage as a safety net, maybe. But you're suggesting that government mandate a living wage. What nonsense. Zero-sum at best; corrosive more likely.

--Illegal immigration. Deport illegals immediately. Like almost every other nation on earth does. Repeal birthright citizenship, either through SCOTUS clarification of the 14th, or by constitutional amendment. Generous legal immigration continues.

--Healthcare. I'll give Obama props for following the process through Congress--and for trying to make right a system that hadn't been free-market since the 1940s. His work on ending the preexisting condition nonsense was magnificent and struck a balance between the needs of people and fairness to insurance companies. Medicare expansion or an early "buy-in" might work. But this one is complicated.

--Guns. Reasonable requirements? Like what? And what are "we" asking for in return? (I can think of some compromises I'd be willing to make in exchange for a end to the discussion--forever.) Again, we're not talking about privileges here like driving a car or practicing law or medicine. We're talking about a Constitutional right. Do rights have limits? Sure, some do. The devil's in the details. Government doesn't (and shouldn't) know where the guns are or who has them except in extraordinary circumstances.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 05:35pm PT
^^THAT made my night. this may not belong here, most certainly I don't belong there. On the good foot. If you can't relate, maybe why climb?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

at least skip to hank at 5:30

edit: the picture, I may have been pre-empted
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
^^Engaging in conversation is "taking the bait?" You're a strange fellow, DMT.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:07pm PT
Lituya...What should the middle class and poor give in return...? Any ideas what would be fair...?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:14pm PT
We're talking political ideology here--not economic class. I know, you like to conflate as it suits your worldview, but the two are not congruent. Glasses off for a few, eh?
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
EdwardT: What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans?
For me:
End Political divide - No clue. Maybe corporate, religious and social leaders get together and negotiate a plan to unite this country. Then tell the politicians to play ball.
Low wages Incrementally raise minimum wages to a reasonable level. Maybe $20/hr by 2028. Partial increases for workers under age 21.

I ask ST progressives to forgive me for using Marxist logic in my response.

A. The root cause of growing polarization of US society and US politics is growing divide between rich and poor.
B. The root causes of growing divide between rich and poor are:
1) globalization, outsourcing, offshoring
2) free trade
3) high immigration of unskilled people putting pressure on job market

Limiting #1, #2 and #3 would lead to healthier job market without any need to increase minimum wage.
A bit more progressive taxation is nice to have but not really mandatory if the above recommendations are implemented.

Progressives' pep talk about cooperation, minimum wage etc. is useless without limiting #1, #2 and #3.

Although limiting #1, #2 and #3 is beneficial to underprivileged Americans, it's detrimental for a standard of life of educated upper class progressives. This is a real reason why they oppose Trump's attempts to limit #1, #2 and #3.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
Lituya...You saying you don't have any class...?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:57pm PT
Lituya

Mountain climber

Nov 18, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
^^Engaging in conversation is "taking the bait?"

My post wasn't intended as bait. More of a request to offer your own ideas, instead of simply dismissing mine, You did that. Thanks.

It'd be great if the Tacopolitards would focus on more civil exchange of ideas and less on petty f*#kyouisms.

To all you Tards:

What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans? What would you recommend to improve those issues?

What would be supported by most Americans? Think 60-70%. Not 51%.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:13pm PT
Lituya...Don't feel bad...Edward is a master baiter...
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
Lituya...Don't feel bad...Edward is a master baiter...
. . . and you're kind of childish.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:38pm PT
“It'd be great if the Tacopolitards would focus on more civil exchange of ideas and less on petty f*#kyouisms.”

+1
John M

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans? What would you recommend to improve those issues?

reduce military by 25% ( can be done slowly, can buy off senior staff so that staff doesn't stagnate )
Pay them better so that we can attract better quality.

Take money and start paying down debt.

spend money on fixing infrastructure

Do a better job of fixing healthcare. Get profits out of insurance or go to single payer for basic care and insurance for higher levels of care. ( that should satisfy the elite and allow it to happen )

Get money out of political elections.

......

Thats a start.. there is more.



edit:: And raise taxes on the 1 percent so that we can pay for raking our forests.

( sorry, couldn't resist. you gotta admit that was a pretty stupid thing that Trump said. Besides.. I admitted that Hillary was dumb for calling people "deplorables" )



Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
Lituya tells RJ off! OH MY!

Nov 18, 2018 - 07:36pm PT

Lituya...Don't feel bad...Edward is a master baiter...
. . . and you're kind of childish

Lituya: I suspect you are the only one here taking this thread seriously. Anyone who considers a political thread serious, on a climbing forum, is "mentally-challenged."

Thank you for your serious posts.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 18, 2018 - 09:26pm PT
Lituya: I suspect you are the only one here taking this thread seriously. Anyone who considers a political thread serious, on a climbing forum, is "mentally-challenged."

Well, maybe if a relatively few posters could back off from shrieking at each other, more of us would chime in with thoughtful content.

In fact, maybe alongside thinking about important issues facing Americans (and the world), it might be worth engaging in civil argument about issues here, rather than looking for every opportunity to insult those with different viewpoints.

The last few days -- on this thread, at least -- have seen a considerable increase in thoughtful posts, with only a couple of people responding with rote insults. Makes it almost tempting to chime in...
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 09:40pm PT
I suspect you are the only one here taking this thread seriously.

Well, Fritz, you do start the lion's share of political threads on ST. If you don't want others' opinions, then why do you ask? If you just want echo-chamber/choir responses that validate Fritz, then, by all means, I'll abstain from engaging with you. If you don't like insults--then don't insult. Pretty simple stuff.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:14pm PT
I voted for Newsom, johntp. I hope that he doesn't squander the $14 billion surplus that 'Moonbeam'....the Cali Democrat that fiscally 'responsible' Repubs have reviled throughout my lifetime....has left for the state.

Do you really think Cox was going to do anything better for Cali? More to the point: does it really matter to you?



Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:42am PT
Gerrymandering! Bwaaaaaak!!

For Lituya:
http://www.redistrictingmajorityproject.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/06/01/616216560/episode-845-redmap
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:17am PT
--Illegal immigration. Deport illegals immediately.
who is going to pick your crops, mow your lawn, wash your car, clean your toilets? you know, the jobs white people don't want to do.

Government doesn't (and shouldn't) know where the guns are or who has them except in extraordinary circumstances.

lituya, the gubment already knows, too late.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:19am PT
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
Lituya tells RJ off! OH MY!

Nov 18, 2018 - 07:36pm PT

Lituya...Don't feel bad...Edward is a master baiter...
. . . and you're kind of childish

Lituya: I suspect you are the only one here taking this thread seriously. Anyone who considers a political thread serious, on a climbing forum, is "mentally-challenged."

Right!

It's only important when you think it's important.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 19, 2018 - 08:30am PT
who is going to pick your crops, mow your lawn, wash your car, clean your toilets? you know, the jobs white people don't want to do.

Why do we need to mercilessly exploit a group of people to perform these tasks?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 08:39am PT
And that’s the other side of the coin.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 19, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
I wouldn't say EdwardT comes off as middle of the road, more like right of center. I consider my philosophically centrist, and probably left of center compared to the average American socially, and probably still centrist economically. It's interesting where I think he is more left than me.

//End Political divide - No clue. Maybe corporate, religious and social leaders get together and negotiate a plan to unite this country. Then tell the politicians to play ball.
Top issues:
End the polemic rhetoric. quit catering to the fringes.
Enact law overturning Citizens United.
End gerrymandering. non-partisan districts/boundaries, nationwide.//

I think ending gerrymandering could help here. As much as constitutionally feasible I'd like to see districts evenly split red/blue so candidates would need to be moderate to win. With gerrymandering they make highly concentrated left and right districts where the left/right wingers win. These are often the people who don't compromise, don't see that the govt. is supposed to work for everyone, and engage in terrible rhetoric.

//Low wages Incrementally raise minimum wages to a reasonable level. Maybe $20/hr by 2028. Partial increases for workers under age 21.//

I think if we compare minimum wage to inflation we get a reasonable level. I'm not in favor or paying fast food workers the same as EMTs as could happen with a high minimum wage. It's also tough because minimum wage should be different in San Francisco compared to Bakersfield.

Illegal immigration - Fix the damn problem and then obey the laws. Dreamers get a shot at citizenship. Illegals register with the government. Allowed to obtain green card, with strict rules for maintaining green card status. Allowed to apply for citizenship. In the back of the line. End chain migration. Seal the border. Penalized governments providing sanctuary.

One area I agreed with Dubya Bush was a guest worker program. Take the underground economy for cheap labor that exists and helps our country our into the open. Just because someone comes here and works doesn't mean they need to become a Citizen, but they should have rights and pay taxes.

Affordable healthcare - Obamacare was a good, but flawed, step in the right direction. Don't repeal it. Fix it!

Agreed. We kind of screwed ourselves in this country with private health insurance typically provided by employers. It's going to be a bigger and bigger hindrance to us competing in a global economy with countries with more efficient systems.

//Environment - Continue to raise CAFE standards. Harsher rules for polluters - can you say coal ash spill? Raise fuel taxes 20 cents/yr for five hears. Two thirds for infrastructure. Remainder for green energy.//

Agreed.

Guns - Register all guns. Required gun safety course certification. Additional training and background checks for "collectors". Get rid of semi-automatic weapons. Criminalize possession of converted semiautomatics.

This is to the left of me. Practically we'll never register the millions of guns out there. It would be much easier to track ammunition and ammunition supply sales. I'm okay with most guns not being registered. I'm okay with semi-autos. I'm for the ability to own most types of guns including fully automatics IF we do a much better job keeping them out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. Universal background checks for all gun sales. Stiff penalties for providing a gun that was used in a crime. Guns with replaceable clips (assault rifles) and hand guns should have mandatory training required for purchase and stiffer background check requirements and only be allowed in certain places (e.g. I'm okay with a full automatic assault rifle out in the dessert, but not in cities).
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 19, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
I think ending gerrymandering could help here. As much as constitutionally feasible I'd like to see districts evenly split red/blue so candidates would need to be moderate to win. With gerrymandering they make highly concentrated left and right districts where the left/right wingers win. These are often the people who don't compromise, don't see that the govt. is supposed to work for everyone, and engage in terrible rhetoric.

How about non-partisan boundaries? Use natural boundaries, legal boundaries (city limits) and/or algorithms. End the manipulation of boundaries to benefit the party in charge.

One big problem I have with gerrymandering is it creates very partisan districts, which results in hardliner representatives.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 02:39pm PT
Gerrymandering - again, there is a long tradition of this in America on both sides. I suppose an algorithm could be written that would align districts every ten years based on an agreed-to formula.

Guns - I would agree to many restrictions that were also imposed upon police, e.g. magazine capacity, etc. Again, like Fritz, I prefer revolvers and lever or bolt-action rifles. I do own a couple of semi-autos, but I'd give 'em up if the police were required to do the same. Maybe a ban on hi-capacity semi-autos in exchange for lifting most or all restrictions on more "traditional" types of arms like revolvers, shotguns, lever/bolt rifles?

Also, I've often wondered why civilians and police are free to carry hollow-pointed ammunition--but soldiers are forbidden to do the same. IMO, hollow-pointed ammunition is nothing more than a substitute for poor marksmanship.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 02:48pm PT
Deeeep breath there, Tut. Someone's been watching too much MSNBC again.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 02:52pm PT
The status quo works for you, but not for 90% of the people.
It's not in my financial interest to change the status quo, but it just hurts seeing how so many people in our country are deprived of basic human needs.

90%?? Wow, I had no idea. Please explain. Sorry, Moose, but I think your numbers are the product of Koolaid.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 03:01pm PT
methinks

Just because Shakespeare and Thoreau used it doesn't mean you ought to. In fact, please stop. It makes you sound dumber than you already are.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 19, 2018 - 03:38pm PT
You have a gun fetish. There is no need for semi-auto weapons in civilian hands.

Insulting someone is always a good strategy... Semi-auto can be very advantageous for hunting and target shooting. Plus they are fun to shoot. I believe in the freedom of law abiding people to own what they want with reasonable restrictions to keep them out of the wrong hands and out of the wrong places and very stiff penalties when they are misused for everyone involved. That's what America is about IMO. Taking a hard line stance one way or the other does nothing to advance any reasonable compromises.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 04:55pm PT
Lock her up!!!

Ivanka Trump used a personal email account to send hundreds of emails about government business last year


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ivanka-trump-used-a-personal-email-account-to-send-hundreds-of-emails-about-government-business-last-year/2018/11/19/6515d1e0-e7a1-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.88143b8af281
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:20pm PT
Insulting someone is always a good strategy... Semi-auto can be very advantageous for hunting and target shooting. Plus they are fun to shoot. I believe in the freedom of law abiding people to own what they want with reasonable restrictions to keep them out of the wrong hands and out of the wrong places and very stiff penalties when they are misused for everyone involved. That's what America is about IMO. Taking a hard line stance one way or the other does nothing to advance any reasonable compromises.
I agree on the insulting stuff not being a good strategy but after that I disagree.
Sure semi-automatic guns are fun and advantageous for hunting. But I think the fact they are the preferred choice of mass murderers outweighs that. in the same way that the dangers of explosives outweigh the fact that they are also fun (way more fun than guns imo) and can also be advantageous for hunting (fishing really)
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:30pm PT
Lituya,

Based on the publications (backed by the polls):

2 out of 3 people want gun control

80% want an immigration reform

78% want our troops back home (stop the wars)

over 80% want healthcare for all

etc.

Since some of those ideas don't overlap, it's easy to see that at least 90% of the population is not satisfied with their representatives.

Sorry Moose, but you just made these up. And even if there are "polls" to back up what you claim, the answers you provide are nebulous. For example, "80% want immigration reform." Ok, in what form? Hard-line? Open borders? Somewhere in between? I suspect yes. "80% want healthcare for all." Well, who wouldn't! Single payer? I doubt your 80% number holds. Might not even hold at 50. "2 out of 3 want gun control." Show me the numbers. And the question that was asked.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:33pm PT
Gun control support surges in polls


*Roughly 2 in 3 Americans now say gun control laws should be made more strict in the wake of the murder of 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, according to a number of polls, including a new POLITICO/Morning Consult poll that shows support for stricter gun laws among registered voters at 68 percent, compared with just 25 percent who oppose stricter gun laws.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/28/gun-control-polling-parkland-430099
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
Seventy percent of Americans support 'Medicare for all' in new poll

A vast majority — 70 percent — of Americans in a new poll supports "Medicare for all," also known as a single-payer health-care system.

The Reuters–Ipsos survey found 85 percent of Democrats said they support the policy along with 52 percent of Republicans.

The move to abolish Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was also opposed by a majority of respondents. Seventy percent of Republicans said they opposed abolishing the 15-year-old agency, while Democrats said they were evenly split on the issue, with roughly 44 percent in favor of abolishing it and 44 percent saying it should remain.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/403248-poll-seventy-percent-of-americans-support-medicare-for-all
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:42pm PT
Since when does the will of the people override the NRA's gun lobby?
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:43pm PT
i think it was clear when moose said 'an' immigration reform it was open ended.
while some may be left biased, and the gun control poll may have lost a little support as time wanes (there will be another parkland don't worry) i assure you none of them are made up.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
Troops at U.S.-Mexican border to start coming home
By WESLEY MORGAN 11/19/2018 04:15 PM EST Updated 11/19/2018 05:36 PM EST
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/19/troops-us-mexico-border-come-home-1005510

The 5,800 troops who were rushed to the southwest border amid President Donald Trump’s pre-election warnings about a refugee caravan will start coming home as early as this week — just as some of those migrants are beginning to arrive.

Democrats and Republicans have criticized the deployment as a ploy by the president to use active-duty military forces as a prop to try to stem Republican losses in this month’s midterm elections.



Gosh.....ya think??
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:59pm PT
I think the fact they are the preferred choice of mass murderers outweighs that.

I respect your opinion, but I feel that if some idiot does something wrong with something it shouldn't affect my ability to have that thing if I'm going to use it responsibly. Timothy McVeigh used fertilizer to make a bomb to kill hundreds in OKC. They shouldn't stop selling fertilizer, but if they want to put regulations in place that say if you buy over a certain amount you have to get a license by proving you are a farmer I'm fine with that. If we regulate semi-autos to say you have to have a semi-auto license and that requires passing a gun safety course, and an extensive background check including mental health, I think that's a good idea. In California you have to basically do that to get a concealed carry permit. And I think that's a good idea. I think it should be expanded to if you are carrying a gun in a public place, or you have a handgun (which are all pretty much semi-automatic) or a semi-automatic long gun.

Basically I'm not willing to give up my (and my fellow law abiding citizens) rights and freedoms because other people are insane or do stupid things. However I'm in favor of much better regulations, the more dangerous the weapon or object the more tight the regulations.

There's plenty of people who see rock climbing and think it should be illegal. They say climbers can get killed, drop rocks on people, or need a rescue (usually paid by tax dollars and a risk to the rescuers), or damage the rock in public parks. They don't need to rock climb. Why should we allow it? Cause it's freedom baby yeah.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:04pm PT
I respect your opinion, but I feel that if some idiot does something wrong with something it shouldn't affect my ability to have that thing if I'm going to use it responsibly. Timothy McVeigh used fertilizer to make a bomb to kill hundreds in OKC. They shouldn't stop selling fertilizer, but if they want to put regulations in place that say if you buy over a certain amount you have to get a license by proving you are a farmer I'm fine with that. If we regulate semi-autos to say you have to have a semi-auto license and that requires passing a gun safety course, and an extensive background check including mental health, I think that's a good idea. In California you have to basically do that to get a concealed carry permit. And I think that's a good idea. I think it should be expanded to if you are carrying a gun in a public place, or you have a handgun (which are all pretty much semi-automatic) or a semi-automatic long gun.
Quite a few of us would consider that the gun control we're after. Sure we would prefer a ban on assault rifles but ANY MOVEMENT AT ALL would help. We wanted single payer, but were happy that we at least got the ACA as hopefully a starting point.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
A vast majority — 70 percent — of Americans in a new poll supports "Medicare for all," also known as a single-payer health-care system.

"George Mason University found it would lead to $32.6 trillion increase in federal spending over a 10-year period. The study’s author, Charles Blahous, wrote in The Wall Street Journal earlier this month that even doubling taxes would not cover the bill for a single-payer health-care system."


I wonder if respondents were informed about the cost? The devil's in the details. And libs love to skip over those pesky details. BTW, Medicare expansion is certainly NOT the same thing as "single-payer."


"The new Reuters poll also showed that a majority of Americans supports free college tuition. Forty-one percent of Republicans said they supported the policy, pollsters found, compared with 79 percent of Democrats."

FREE STUFF!!
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:11pm PT
Since when does the will of the people override the NRA's gun lobby?

It doesn't. Unless they amend the Constitution. Good luck.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
There's plenty of people who see rock climbing and think it should be illegal. They say climbers can get killed, drop rocks on people, or need a rescue (usually paid by tax dollars and a risk to the rescuers), or damage the rock in public parks. They don't need to rock climb. Why should we allow it? Cause it's freedom baby yeah.
That's a ridiculous misdirection. There is zero science to back up a claim that rock climbing can hurt non climbers. Compare that to the thousands of deaths each year caused by gun owners on non gun owners. The people claiming guns are dangerous have actual facts on their side (yes I know both sides distort statistics). Facts matter.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:15pm PT
Now, back on topic. Go Nancy!!
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:18pm PT
Funny how you left the part before George Mason university which is,
The Mercatus Center, a libertarian policy center based at
"George Mason University found it would lead to $32.6 trillion increase in federal spending over a 10-year period. The study’s author, Charles Blahous, wrote in The Wall Street Journal earlier this month that even doubling taxes would not cover the bill for a single-payer health-care system."

Responding to the study, Sanders took aim at the Mercatus Center, which receives funding from the conservative Koch brothers. Koch Industries CEO Charles Koch is on the center’s board.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
^^Hey, you're the tool who thinks a government glove up his @$$ is a good idea. No problem with Medicare expansion--as long as there is an "opt out" private market option.

BTW, you think 18% is high? Govt could do better?

I know you like to claim to be a doctor on the internet. For those who really are, and support single-payer, get ready for a big pay cut.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
Mercatus Center sponsored by the Koch brothers... .Jim Carey butt cheek laugh...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:41pm PT
"No problem with Medicare expansion--as long as there is an "opt out" private market option."


Damn....that would be distressingly close to the Canadian model...
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:44pm PT
You won't hear me bashing on Canada. They do well for themselves. There are many things we should emulate--but many we shouldn't.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:49pm PT
Every Canadian I know says their healthcare system works just fine for them, and can't believe America is so retarded when it comes to this issue.

There is a gov't managed healthcare system that provides basic care for any citizen. It's basic, so those that wish to have better coverage can purchase private plans on their own.

Seems entirely reasonable to me...there is basic healthcare for everyone, but those who want better than basic pay for what they want.


Why can't we make that happen here? Because the insurance industry is as effective as the NRA in lobbying congress, and spreading bullshit lies about how it's not possible, and disaster awaits if we try.


BTW....the caravan is here. Why are the troops leaving?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
You won't hear me bashing on Canada.

I'll bash those frosty bastards!

Take off, Hosers!!!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Tim Hortons - 8 parking spaces

WTF???
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:52pm PT
There are also billions invested in the industry--by ordinary Americans. Like Fritz. And pension funds.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:56pm PT
So no effort should be made to do something different?

If there's one thing both sides can agree on, it's that our current system is catastrophically dysfunctional.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:06pm PT
So no effort should be made to do something different?

I haven't heard anyone say that. The problem is that both sides want 100% of their wish-list fulfilled.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:08pm PT
Tim Hortons - 8 parking spaces

If there is anything Canada needs to apologize for, it's Tim Hortons. Worse. Than. Taco. Bell.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:24pm PT
Back and forth nail biter in Utah...

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/11/19/election-update-utah/

I think Ben's got it.

Full disclosure...(ha ha)...we have a Ben sign in our yard even though he's not in our district.

Be 'bout time we get a bit of representation here in the very red Utah.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
Lituya! Re your comment on current discussion about going to Universal Healthcare:

There are also billions invested in the industry--by ordinary Americans. Like Fritz. And pension funds.


Thank you for keeping track of my investments, It's gud to know you care.

However, I do support an orderly transition to universal healthcare, & per the original Obamacare, the health insurers always win.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
What do you think would be a reasonable direction, Lituya?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
The republicans want 100% of their wish list approved which translates to no universal health care but let's all pretend they want to fix the problem...
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 19, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
apogee:
"No problem with Medicare expansion--as long as there is an "opt out" private market option."

Damn....that would be distressingly close to the Canadian model...
No. It woouldn't.
In Ontario you are not allowed to "opt out".
In Ontario you are not even allowed to pay out of your pocket for services that theoretically can be had for free.

What you described is closer to German model when you are required to have either government or private health insurance.

Every Canadian I know says their healthcare system works just fine for them, and can't believe America is so retarded when it comes to this issue.
Apparently all of them are young healthy people.
Older folks with some health issues do not believe this BS.

Yes, Canadian system is cheaper.
However American system is better from point of view of quality of service (for most people).
Bale

Mountain climber
UT
Nov 19, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
Brian, I don’t think Love has conceded yet, but it looks pretty good for McAdams. Go Ben!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
Yury, there's a difference between quality of healthcare, and access to it. The quality of American healthcare is the highest in the world...if you can get access to it.

Accessing the healthcare system in the US means going through the 'middle man' of the insurance industry...an industry whose sole motivation is profit and returns for their shareholders. This completely distorts the real costs of health care.

And at this point in my life, and the lives of my many Canadian friends...we are not exactly 'young and healthy'. Yet, I can't remember a single Canadian I've encountered who thought their country's system was absolutely unacceptable, and thought the US had a better way to go.

Edit:
"What you described is closer to German model when you are required to have either government or private health insurance."

My comment was over-simplified, to be sure. I didn't mean to suggest that Lituya's comment was a strict replication of the Canadian model. But it was close.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 10:12pm PT
The republicans want 100% of their wish list approved which translates to no universal health care but let's all pretend they want to fix the problem...

...and Democrats want 100% of their wish list approved or any movement toward a fix to represent movement toward single-payer. But let's all pretend they actually want to fix the problem...

See how it works?

Yuri, thanks for clarifying Canadian healthcare. I've heard good and bad. A doctor friend of mine treats dozens of Canadian citizens who can't get prompt care in Vancouver.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
Last I read Medicare overhead was 3% bro.

And yea, MD class of 2006 UC Davis. Look it up, I give no more shits.

If you say so. Your temperament is far beneath that of any doctor I know.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 10:18pm PT
So what direction do you think the American healthcare system should take, Lituya?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 10:31pm PT
Full implementation of the ACA--including the parts Obama himself refused to implement. And, maybe, a phased lowering of the Medicare age. A raising of federal taxes to pay for it in the form of additional Medicare payroll tax for every citizen.

But always, no matter what, a private-sector option.

Just ideas. None of us really know how to fix this.

Your thoughts and/or ideas?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 11:14pm PT
Damn, Lituya...your vision sounds almost liberal.

I think we need a system where every tax-paying citizen has a baseline level of healthcare. That basic level should be very basic, but enough to provide preventative care, and basic emergency care when it's needed. Preventative care may be a bit delayed, but not unreasonably so. The insurance industry should have little or nothing to do with this baseline healthcare system.

If citizens want better care...more immediate care...there should be a means by which they can obtain it, if they can pay for it themselves, without subsidies. This might involve the insurance industry (not sure how that could be avoided).

A major problem with all of this...that I have no idea how to solve...is that healthcare costs are so twisted up with insurance reimbursement rates and negotiations...that it's really hard to get a sense for what the actual cost of the treatments and therapies.

Though I appreciated Obama's efforts at changing our current system, even if it had been fully implemented, it still relies on a profit-driven insurance system, regardless of what level of healthcare one seeks. The idea that the ACA was going to be a baby step towards a complete revision of the system was pie in the sky.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 11:19pm PT
Not liberal at all--it's just that the current healthcare system isn't really free market--so I won;t defend it like I will capitalism generally.

Hell, even Medicare requires paid supplements now to make ends meet. My dad just received a bill for $175 from his doctor--because he asked a question that wasn't covered under Medicare guidelines.

Medicare For All might end up eventually meaning more of the same.

A major problem with all of this...that I have no idea how to solve...is that healthcare costs are so twisted up with insurance reimbursement rates and negotiations...that it's really hard to get a sense for what the actual cost of the treatments and therapies.

Man, I could tell you a story...
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 20, 2018 - 04:30am PT
apogee:
Yury, there's a difference between quality of healthcare, and access to it. The quality of American healthcare is the highest in the world...if you can get access to it.
apogee, for majority of Americans your health care system is better than Canadian one from quality and access point of view.

Have you ever heard about waiting times?
Just google for "waiting times" and add the name of any Canadian province.

There are some segments of American population (like independent contractors without corporate insurance) with access issues, but for more than 51% of people American system is better than Canadian one.


I think we need a system where every tax-paying citizen has a baseline level of healthcare.
apogee, I did not know that you were a conservative. ;)
What about tax-paying non-citizens?
What about not so basic heart attack, stroke or cancer?
Should they be covered?

Again, Obamacare is a monstrocity designed to please health insurance companies.
It's possible to design a single payer system with private providers of services and mixed (depending on a state) private/public administration of services that can be supported by majority of American voters and majority of American politicians.

Again, some people like young single healthy males and healthcare executive would not like it.
Again, it should not be a monopoly and should coexist with private insurance to cover better services.

Do you understand why Obama has not even tried to develop such option?

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:24am PT
As a physician for 20+ years, I have seen it all in terms of the American health care system.

We have to get capitalism out of health care. The privatization of health care has been an unqualified disaster. Capitalism in health care establishes a vast realm of unintended consequences and counter-productive incentives that are not consistent with providing quality health care. Costs have risen out of control, access has declined, and private insurance companies are practicing medicine for monetary gain at the expense of people's health and lives. Every day, we see more and more hoardes of people for whom health care insurance is out of reach. No where else in the world but the USA are people going into bankruptcy from health care expenses. People are dying from treatable illnesses so that CEOs and lawyers can buy more yachts.

We have to move to universal health care that does not involve private for-profit corporations.

Obamacare is a monstrocity designed to please health insurance companies.

Obamacare is a disaster because the Republicans had to get their fingers in the works. The original idea of Obamacare was perverted by the Republicans into an bastard system.

We need to get capitalism, profit, and Republicans out of health care.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:33am PT
Lituya...No waiting lines in America's system...Bull sh#t...!!!!!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:36am PT
And then wait some more to see if the insurance company denies your claim.....who do you think you're kidding with the smooth Mitch Mcconnel delivery...Take another shot at it liar....
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:40am PT
No waiting lines in America's health care system?

I'm a physician. My knee went bad from an old running injury, and I was having a lot of trouble walking. I could walk 100 yards at the most. My knee MRI showed major abnormalities of the bones around the joint, blood in the joint, and a shredded meniscus.

I saw an orthopedic surgeon who recommend surgery. The insurance company denied my medical care as an "elective" procedure. Four months of appeals, denials, appeals, and more denials. My pain became intolerable and I had to stop working. I could watch my quadriceps muscles wasting away. My surgeon recommended that I just pay $20,000 cash for the surgery rather than let my health deteriorate any further. When I said that I would pay, I had the surgery within 36 hours and I am working again.

Imagine what life is like for people who are less educated and have fewer resources.

Yeah. "No waiting lines for health care in America."
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:47am PT
And how bout the Republicans pre-existing condition scam...?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:53am PT
And how bout the Republicans pre-existing condition scam...?

Hey - CEOs and lawyers need more yachts! If insurance companies actually had to pay for health care, how could they afford another yacht?
perswig

climber
Nov 20, 2018 - 08:17am PT
SLR, any of that through the VA or all general public service/providers?

Dale
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 08:26am PT
SLR, any of that through the VA or all general public service/providers?
Yes, the VA, but I am under contract to not disclose any dirty laundry at the VA per a legal agreement

DO NOT confuse the VA system with a single-payer system. VA patients are generally poorly educated, dysfunctional, and their sense of entitlement knows no bounds. The VA patient population is vastly different from the general population at large.

The vast majority of veterans, most of whom are solid citizens, do not use the VA because they have a job and private health insurance, or they work for a living therefore don't qualify for VA care.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 20, 2018 - 08:49am PT
"Again, Obamacare is a monstrocity designed to please health insurance companies.
It's possible to design a single payer system with private providers of services and mixed (depending on a state) private/public administration of services that can be supported by majority of American voters and majority of American politicians.

Again, some people like young single healthy males and healthcare executive would not like it.

Again, it should not be a monopoly and should coexist with private insurance to cover better services."


Yury, I find myself more in agreement with you than not. Yes, I've heard of the waiting periods that exist in the Canadian system, and they sound awful and unacceptable. While I think a baseline level of care (however it is managed, single payer or some variation) should provide basic coverage (where to draw the line would be the challenge), it wouldn't be 'Gold' or 'Platinum' care...more like Bronze. Reasonable waiting times might be a part of such baseline care...if you want better care (including short wait times), you need to pay for it yourself.


And, importantly, somehow, some way, insurance company reimbursements and negotiations need to be extricated from the whole damn process. It's impossible to get a sense for the actual cost of healthcare due to the 'middle man' of the insurance industry.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 09:11am PT
Again, it should not be a monopoly and should coexist with private insurance to cover better services.
That's exactly the kind of perverted thinking that got us into the current situation.

Universal single-payer health care is the only way to go. All capitalism and private enterprise has to be eliminated from health care. We can no longer permit a tiered system where being rich enables you to get good care, while being poor means you die in the gutter from treatable diseases.

Period.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 20, 2018 - 09:28am PT
A Canadian friend (with dual citizenship) back in the 90s told me his the total of his taxes (national, province, etc) were like 50% of his pay in Canada vs. 35% in the US. But it was worth it to not have to worry about health care. I have no idea if those figures are accurate, or for whom, but that is the choice we'd have to make.

If you add up co-pays, prescriptions, office visits, etc. in the US that also takes up a good chunk of income. Pay may also be higher since the employer is not providing health care.

Our system is so entrenched it would be extremely difficult to change, even without the lobbying of the insurance co.s etc.

It would be nice if there was some type of hybrid system. Where access to healthcare was universal but we could make choices of who our provider was to keep competition and innovation in the system. I have and like Kaiser. It seems way smarter to have the "insurance" and care from the same company, so the insurer is more interested in doing what's best for your long term health. Lot's of preventative stuff is free. I went to free classes for shoulder impingement and patello femoral syndrome. Way smarter to offer a free class that teaches PT, than have someone need surgery later.

I used to think access to health care wasn't a right, until I though about prisoners. If prisoners are denied health care and they die they've been denied a right the same as food or safety. I don't know about giving everyone free health care if they do nothing to contribute, but definitely everyone should have access. Obamacare really helped in that regard.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 20, 2018 - 09:40am PT
America pays twice as much for health care as other countries. The biggest factor is so many things are overpriced, from prescriptions to surgeries. The copay I pay for things in the US can be what people in other countries may pay for the whole visit. A lot of that is due to sand bagging the insurance companies.

I feel like we should have universal healthcare (govt. insurance) but everyone goes to private providers and has a 1-40% copay. If everyone has skin in the game they will shop for the best deal and prices would come down. If everyone is involved it would work much better than some bureaucrat trying to set prices and keep up with millions of transactions.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 20, 2018 - 10:14am PT
it's just that the current healthcare system isn't really free market

Y'know, I've never understood why the free market is supposed to be part of healthcare.

In the depression people in the cities were dying of malnutrition while farmers were plowing their crops under because they had no market for their crops. That's the magic of the free market at work? No thanks.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 20, 2018 - 10:20am PT
or they work for a living therefore don't qualify for VA care.

That is not true. ALL veterans have access to medical care. However if you earn income you have to pay some of it. There are 7 (I think?) tiers, I am on tier 7 so I pay some of it. I signed up for VA a couple of years ago to satisfy the Obamacare mandate. My routine care is doe through a community clinic where I also pay. I planned on using VA for catastrophic type situations.

A couple of months ago I got a debilitating pain in my side, I was thinking ruptured appendix, so I went to the emergency room at the VA. Got a CT scan and found out it was a kidney stone. Spent the night in the hospital on morphine and passed the stone overnight and avoided surgery in the morning. I braced my self for the bill when it arrived in the mail, 270 bucks.

Between the community clinic and the VA I am well covered. The care I received at the VA was very good, although I got the sense that the staff (nurses, only saw a doctor briefly) was less experienced than what I saw at Scripps hospital when my friend was in there.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 20, 2018 - 10:31am PT
That is not true. ALL veterans have access to medical care.
Thanks for clarifying. That was my impression since several of my coworkers are dealing with VA bureaucracies this week.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 20, 2018 - 10:40am PT
Actually you need 3 years of active duty to be qualified for VA, although I do not think that rule applies to Vietnam era vets

yes, service related is always covered
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 20, 2018 - 10:43am PT
makes sense. i assume it would also apply to a lasting injury received on active duty?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:27am PT
ALL veterans have access to medical care.
False

The VA has imposed an income cutoff for care. Basically, unless you have a service connected disability greater than a specified percentage, a veteran's income has to border on the poverty level to qualify for care.

Veterans like me have no ability to access VA care. I do not qualify for VA care because of my income, even though I am a partially-disabled veteran who was injured in a training accident while on active duty.

The VA is essentially for impoverished veterans, dysfunctional vets who can't keep a job, and those who have a disability that is rated greater than a specified percentage.

As I said, most veterans are functional human beings who have a job and also have health insurance. Most vets do not use VA services.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:44am PT
Former President Barack Obama said "racism" and "mommy issues," among other contributors, were limiting the country's ability to make progress on everything from education to climate change.

Obama, speaking at the Obama Foundation Summit on Monday night, said the answers already exist to solve many of the problems facing both the U.S. and the world, but that the nation was not making progress "because we are still confused, blind, shrouded with hate, anger, racism, mommy issues."

The crowd laughed following Obama's remark, which came as he was explaining why he thought less was being done to combat climate change.

Bummer
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:50am PT
The mother....!

meh? What do you expect from a Hawaii guy. Barry, the island is calling you home. How about a digital branch of the presidential library, where ever the popolo are. Try come home...
Gimp

Trad climber
Missoula, MT & "Pourland", OR
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:52am PT
Sierra Ledge Rat is correct.
There are 8 priority groups in the VA system that are based what dates you served, time served, combat exposure and a variety of other factors.

If you are in a low priority group your income level and net worth play a significant factor.

Like most government programs there is a complex formula and complex slow process to determine your status in the system.
Steve
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:54am PT
False

The VA has imposed an income cutoff for care. Basically, unless you have a service connected disability greater than a specified percentage, a veteran's income has to border on the poverty level

I filled out a form and disclosed my income and assets, I am no where near poverty level. I am in tier 7, maybe they screwed up?

edit: Just started researching it and noticed this

Net Worth Information No Longer Required
In January 2015, VA eliminated the use of net worth information as a determining factor for eligibility and copayment responsibilities. VA will only consider a Veteran’s gross household income and deductible expenses from the previous year. This change makes VA health care benefits more affordable to lower- income Veterans who have no service-connected condition or other qualifying factors.

Here is an online calculator that can be used to determine if a veteran is eligible http://hbexplorer.vacloud.us/

According to the online tool the income limit is over 50k for a single veteran.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
The VA is definitely not the system on which we should base national health care.

No, no, no.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 20, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
How about Medicare for everyone, with supplemental policies for anyone willing to pay?

If yes, then how do we get there?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 20, 2018 - 12:32pm PT
I think I'd be down with that. It's a step in the right direction, anyway.

Getting the insurance industry out of the picture is a steep hill to climb, though.

I have a feeling that Medicare for all could actually fly in Congress...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 20, 2018 - 01:35pm PT
One insurance plan to rule them all.


I'd be down too. I'd be up for medicare with a small % copay. 1-10% or so based on income with a yearly cap so people would shop for the best deals on care, and wouldn't get service unnecessarily if they have a financial stake in the decision. For example if it's free to them some people will just take the ambulance to the hospital, a $2,700 bill, instead of drive (this kind of stuff already happens). But if they paid say 5%, that's $135. If you really needed it you happily pay the $135, but if you could just drive instead it would save you $135.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
Since you gentlemen bring up the subject of Medicare, let me share a brief review of what I experienced in 2017. I'm quite positive overall.

At age 65 Americans with a work history, get to enjoy “free” medical care, thanks to Medicare.

I signed up for parts A, B, D, & supplemental insurance.

The good parts are incredible! I had knee surgery for a torn meniscus last November & the total charges for everything related to it were around $26,000.00. Other than local travel expenses & some cheap prescription drugs, I paid zero.

However!

Medicare Part A, which is hospital insurance is free to folks who qualify.

Medicare part B, which is optional health insurance costs $134.00 monthly, which is deducted from your Social Security benefit. There is also a yearly deductable of $183.00, which Medicare Part B does not cover. Also Medicare Part B does not cover all your Physician costs, so careful folks with some money also often buy:

Supplemental health insurance through an insurance company, which covers almost all, but not always all charges not-covered by Medicare part B.

My supplementary Health Insurance is $114.10 monthly.

Medicare Part D for prescription drugs costs me $26.60 monthly & is mostly a money loser for me. A Bush II Republican idea to make insurance companies some more money. If you don’t buy it & later need expensive prescription drugs & enroll, there are “huge” penalties for not having bought it when starting Medicare.

So--------for those who are still following this:

2017, I had Physician, hospital, & drug medical bills of roughly $30,000.00. (Please bear in mind I am nearly a poster-geezer for Basil Cell skin cancer & rack up some impressive charges at my Dermatologist every year.)

I paid roughly $3,500.00 to Medicare, my health & drug insurers, & paid around $300.00 for stuff not covered.

In theory the other $26,200.00 came out of money my employers & I paid in to Medicare in my 45 or so years of paying Medicare.

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 20, 2018 - 05:37pm PT
Again, Obamacare is a monstrocity designed to please health insurance companies.
It's possible to design a single payer system with private providers of services and mixed (depending on a state) private/public administration of services that can be supported by majority of American voters and majority of American politicians.

Obamacare was designed to get through congress. Maybe some day a single payer system could make it into law.

In the 90s, Dems tried to pass a universal health system that would also adress cost and it failed. The industrial health care complex was just too powerful. As were Republicans that were more interested in partisan victories than people's welfare.

Obamacare was designed to actually provide health care to millions of Americans that didn't have it. They had to pay off the insurance industry in order to do it.

Sad that this is what passes for progress in the US but it is what it is.

It took every last non-republican in the Senate to pass. Every last one of those Senators had a veto that an insurance company lobbyist could leverage.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:17pm PT
It's irritating to hear conservatives whining about Obamacare when it was their party that sat on their ass and did nothing to help make the health care act viable...Typical chicken sh#t politics from the duck and cover republican party...
dirtbag

climber
Nov 21, 2018 - 05:41am PT
^^^100%^^^
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 21, 2018 - 05:46am PT
Washington (CNN)Justice Sonia Sotomayor in an interview with CNN's David Axelrod said that Justice Brett Kavanaugh was welcomed into the Supreme Court "family" in the wake of his polarizing confirmation process.

"When you're charged with working together for most of the remainder of your life, you have to create a relationship," Sotomayor said in an "Axe Files" interview airing Saturday.
"The nine of us are now a family and we're a family with each of us our own burdens and our own obligations to others, but this is our work family, and it's just as important as our personal family.
"We've probably spent more time with each other than most justices spend, who have spouses, with their spouses," she added.
Kavanaugh, who has served since being confirmed early last month, had his confirmation thrown into doubt after a tense Senate Judiciary Committee hearing in September in which California professor Christine Blasey Ford alleged the Supreme Court nominee had sexually assaulted her when they were in high school in the 1980s. Kavanaugh denied the allegations against him.
Sotomayor said despite the contentious confirmation, she told Kavanaugh that the focus on him will settle on his actions as part of the court.
"It was Justice (Clarence) Thomas who tells me that when he first came to the Court, another justice approached him and said, 'I judge you by what you do here. Welcome.' And I repeated that story to Justice Kavanaugh when I first greeted him here," she said.
Thomas was accused of sexual harassment after being nominated in 1991 and also narrowly confirmed by the Senate.
Sotomayor, who was first confirmed to the court in 2009, also pushed back on the notion that Kavanaugh's presence cements a conservative tilt on the Court -- an institution she said is above "political terms."
"Conservative, liberal, those are political terms," she said. "Do I suspect that I might be dissenting a bit more? Possibly, but I still have two relatively new colleagues, one very new colleague, Brett Kavanaugh and Neil Gorsuch. And we've agreed in quite a few cases, we've disagreed in a bunch, But you know, let's see."
When asked modern political discourse, Sotomayor said too large of an emphasis has been put on differences rather than common "human values."
"We all have families we love, we all care about others, we care about our country, and we care when people are injured," she told Axelrod. "And unfortunately, the current conversation often forgets that. It forgets our commonalities and focuses on superficial differences whether those are language or how people look or the same God they pray to but in different ways.
"Those differences truly are not important," she added. "What is important is those human values we share and those human feelings that we share. But I worry that we forget about that too often.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 21, 2018 - 08:40am PT
""It was Justice (Clarence) Thomas who tells me that when he first came to the Court, another justice approached him and said, 'I judge you by what you do here. Welcome.'"


Well, the proof will lie in the pudding, won't it? Kavanaugh may likely have an opportunity to show whether he's truly an independent thinker, or was a carefully chosen GOP-droid to rule in Trump's favor if/when his case(s) land in front of the SCOTUS.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 21, 2018 - 11:41am PT
Well, the proof will lie in the pudding, won't it? Kavanaugh may likely have an opportunity to show whether he's truly an independent thinker, or was a carefully chosen GOP-droid to rule in Trump's favor if/when his case(s) land in front of the SCOTUS.

Like Breyer, and Kagan? (and Sotomayor TBD.) If they're really "independent thinkers," they have yet to show it. Breyer's siding with the liberal majority in Kelo was unforgivable. Ditto Ginsburg--but she has clarity from time to time.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 21, 2018 - 08:11pm PT
How about Medicare for everyone, with supplemental policies for anyone willing to pay?

If yes, then how do we get there?

Deport all the Trump supporters?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 21, 2018 - 08:31pm PT
It's irritating to hear conservatives whining about Obamacare when it was their party that sat on their ass and did nothing to help make the health care act viable.

SO true!

It's always better to do something stupid than nothing at all. DOing is always better than not doing, and then later you can always blame the do-nothing-ers for the fact that you HAD to DO something (stupid).

Obumblecare was a rip-off cluster-fornication that literally handed the American people to the insurance companies on a platter. Those companies lobbied FOR Obumblecare, which should have been the biggest heads-up for the DEMS to run away.

But, noooo, what we got instead was the Dems spouting lines that will LITERALLY live in infamy, such as Pelosi's infamous BS.

Oh, and we can't forget Roberts who asked the right question and then gave the wrong answer when he asked: "If government can do this, then what can government not do?" And the right answer was: "OBVIOUSLY this nation was never intended to have an ALL powerful federal government, so by simple modus tollens, THIS is as good a place to draw the line as any."

Instead, Roberts called it a "tax" and thus called it good. But Obumblecare was NOT a tax, and Obumble himself explicitly marketed it as NOT a tax, to make good on his promise: "I will never raise taxes on the middle class."

Lies top to bottom. Not a SHRED of truth in any aspect of how it was invented and then foisted off on the American people.

Worst of all is that the vast majority of those supposedly "newly insured" found what we intelligent people knew from the outset: Having a high-deductible Bronze plan is de facto having no insurance at all. It's catastrophic "insurance," nothing more.

So these very "poor" people that Obumblecare was designed (and politically marketed) to "insure" quickly realized that their "being insured" did nothing but cost them MORE per year, because now, even with subsidies, they were MORE out of pocket per year for health-care than ever before.

Basically Obumblecare benefited insurance companies (most of all) and a small percentage of edge-cases. The VAST majority of Americans are far, far worse off than before. But, you know, that's typical for government involvement in basically anything.

And it's a PATHETIC line to say, "It was what could get passed." BS! Pure, steaming, rancid BS! The Dems owned the entire government at that point. As they PROVED, they could pass anything over the futile resistance of the Repubs. Obumblecare was what was designed, it was what was marketed, and it was what was passed. Period. The Dems got what THEY wanted.

Still, it's so important to DO something, even if it's an obviously stupid thing, than to do nothing! I'm so glad the Dems made us all "winners" by DOING something!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 21, 2018 - 08:48pm PT
How about Medicare for everyone, with supplemental policies for anyone willing to pay?

But then the bleeding-heart left will complain: "But the poor, the poor, poor, poooooor that can't afford the 'supplemental' policies, which means that the poor don't have the quality of healthcare that the 'wealthy' do. So, we've got to DO something, anything, ANYTHING to ensure equality of outcome."

A big-screen TV on every wall, a cell phone in every pocket, a nice car in every parking spot.... Utopia! Yayyyyy!

Here's a news flash. The PAYERS are now officially in the minority, and you've now raised two generations of the entitled to "replace" us. Hehe... good luck with that! When the payers have died off, you can tax the "rich" at 100%, and that still won't be enough.

And the Dems have actually ZERO interest in solving any of the problems they wring their hands about. Eliminate the perpetual victim class, and you eliminate the majority of perpetual Dem voters. That's no good and can't be allowed to happen. There must always be a majority of victims!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2018 - 09:54pm PT
madbolter1! Always good to hear from you & I thank you for limiting your always interesting prose to a few short paragraphs.

Now that you have shot down the liberals, I bet you have a healthcare plan you might like to share?

I'll assume you noted my remarks on Medicare on the previous page.

Thank you, as always, for your succinct thoughts.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 21, 2018 - 10:22pm PT
Thank goodness we have those willing to stand up for the 1 out of 10,000 people who get 5% of all the income. Fight the good fight brothers.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 21, 2018 - 10:35pm PT
Somebody....educate yourself, read...not items in the playbook for the Trump base. They just follow their leader and shout out anything that comes to mind with zero regard to validity.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 22, 2018 - 05:25am PT
Cosmic, go for a drive and you'll see many projects already underway. More projects are also now in the design phase. It takes a few years from the start of the design process to construction. Google can help with your research, also.

I hope you don't rely on Facebook news feed for information about the world.


But then the bleeding-heart left will complain: "But the poor, the poor, poor, poooooor that can't afford the 'supplemental' policies, which means that the poor don't have the quality of healthcare that the 'wealthy' do. So, we've got to DO something, anything, ANYTHING to ensure equality of outcome."

If the rich want to pay extra for the same result, more power to them. If they are that stupid, let the predators prey on them.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 22, 2018 - 09:12am PT

President Donald Trump pardoned a turkey named Peas on Tuesday, and said in his remarks at the White House, “It really has been blessing after blessing after blessing.” The history of turkey pardons is long and strange, harkening all the way back to a forgotten era long ago: 1989, when George H.W. Bush became the first president to establish the “formalities” of pardoning a turkey as part of a pre-Thanksgiving ceremony. But the real history of turkey pardoning starts well before that—perhaps as far back as the Lincoln administration, when he supposedly let his son keep the Christmas bird instead of eating it. Come on a trip through America’s second-most absurd tradition, right after the Electoral College.

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/photos/2018/11/donald-trump-presidential-turkey-pardoning-photos-history



There are some really funny photos and history here...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2018 - 09:16am PT
But apogee! That turkey post should be on the Thanksgiving thread!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 22, 2018 - 09:17am PT
I considered that, but didn't want to bring politics to the sentiment of that thread.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 23, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/23/us-climate-report-warns-of-dire-changes-by-2050-1012628

Federal scientists warned in a new report Friday that changes in the climate will disrupt the economies of every region in the country in the coming years, with costs threatening to reach hundreds of billions of dollars annually by the middle of this century.

The message, echoing decades of sobering conclusions from the world's leading climate scientists, is at odds with President Donald Trump's repeated scoffing at the idea of global warming. And the administration chose to release it on Black Friday, the busiest shopping day and one of the slowest news days of the year.



By the time this sh#t hits the fan, Trump will be worm food in his grave, with decades of piss stains all over his headstone.

(Snark intended)
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 23, 2018 - 06:55pm PT
Judge Rejects Trump’s Request To Dismiss Lawsuit Against Trump Foundation

*New York Attorney General Barbara Underwood sued the foundation and its directors ― President Trump, Donald Trump Jr., Eric Trump and Ivanka Trump ― in June. The suit alleged that the foundation ― which characterizes itself as a charitable organization ― was “little more than an empty shell” and that Trump used the funds like a personal bank account, violating tax laws.

The lawsuit alleges numerous violations, including using the charity’s funds to finance Trump’s political campaign (an illegal campaign donation) and benefit Trump’s for-profit businesses (a violation of laws against self-dealing).
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 23, 2018 - 08:54pm PT
^^^
Very interesting though to see how easy it is to snivel about "voter fraud" with no evidence of it at all.

EDIT: and by "no evidence," it was perfectly obvious to me at least that what you're doing is legit.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 23, 2018 - 09:19pm PT
“Very interesting though to see how easy it is to snivel about "voter fraud" with no evidence of it at all.”

Man, ain’t that a fact.

Republicans have been whining about voter fraud for years, with virtually no evidence. Yessirree, all they gotta do is repeat a lie with persistence and their base believes it.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 24, 2018 - 06:06am PT
The brown people are coming!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 24, 2018 - 06:14am PT
Let's talk voting fraud.

In Georgia, the state secretary Kemp, who was running the election, was also a white male Republican candidate for governor. He was running against a black woman, Abrams. Kemp prohibited over 50,000 registered black citizens from voting, then Kemp went on to beat Abrams by 50,000 votes.

The Republicans have been guilty of massive gerrymandering. Proof? Look at state election results. In dozens of states, the Democrats got two-thirds of the vote, but the Republicans ended up with two-thirds of the state delegates.

Voting fraud? Look no further than the Republican party.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 24, 2018 - 07:18am PT
I made similar points before SLR ,this is not a Democracy,this is a Republic ,I was told.https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-midterms-popular-vote-worst-ever-1226441?fbclid=IwAR0ud-061cEn4C1KGaNuLIJNW-lk-yaps8E6I6zEfITWThrfLlaPhRtiRtI
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 24, 2018 - 07:31am PT

Voting fraud? Look no further than the Republican party.

Actually both parties have engaged in gerrymandering for many, many years.

But your point is still valid. During the last 20 years the Republicans have taken it to a completely new level (your 2/3 and 2/3 example isn't very far from the truth).

Add in the literal, deliberate voter suppression, which targets people who aren't white with surgical precision? The Republican Party has become anti-American, trying to undermine the democratic process, trading the country we all love for their own wealth and power.

Disgusting at best.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 24, 2018 - 07:35am PT
^^^

And the personal irony in all of this?

I'm very, very proud of California's anti-gerrymandering, citizen-committee redistricting law. And I'm happy as hell to see other states moving in the same direction.

But in my district in the Sierra foothills, we're stuck with a tea-bag, clone congressman who doesn't even live in the district!

I'll live with it though.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 24, 2018 - 07:43am PT
^^^


...drawn by agreement of both parties

I think they divide the committee into thirds. Both parties and also a group of citizens who are, or at least claim to be, neutral. And, if I recall correctly, the statute requires the districting to use natural geographic boundaries as much as possible.

All in all I think it has a wonderful effect here, eliminating a lot of the incentive to extremes.

Even though we're stuck here where I live with a total dork congressional representative.

EDIT: Well now my post (and quote) look weird. Someone posted right after my last missive, and then deleted their post!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 24, 2018 - 08:03am PT
"Even though we're stuck here where I live with a total dork congressional representative."

Well,at least he does not have 7 felony indictments against him,like my congressman,I hope.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 24, 2018 - 08:30am PT
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia

Nov 24, 2018 - 06:14am PT

The Republicans have been guilty of massive gerrymandering. Proof? Look at state election results. In dozens of states, the Democrats got two-thirds of the vote, but the Republicans ended up with two-thirds of the state delegates.

Voting fraud? Look no further than the Republican party.

Pure fiction.
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 24, 2018 - 08:39am PT
Analysis indicates partisan gerrymandering has benefited GOP

https://apnews.com/fa6478e10cda4e9cbd75380e705bd380
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 24, 2018 - 08:51am PT
But in my district in the Sierra foothills, we're stuck with a tea-bag, clone congressman who doesn't even live in the district!

Tom McClintock? the ultimate carpetbagger.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 24, 2018 - 08:58am PT
I thought Morse was going to have a better showing
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 24, 2018 - 09:29am PT
I agree with Cosmic

Outing a fellow forum member without their permission is a chicksh!t and cowardly thing to do

especially so when they have been there for you when you reached out to them
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 24, 2018 - 09:40am PT
I would HOPE that Somebody is just trying to bait Cosmic, with the added twist of irony being that Cosmic was waggling his tongue about "telling" on a person about that GoFundMe thing. Agreed - to actually report someone, especially on a thing like this, means somebody(in general, not specifically) has too much time on their hands and needs a more constructive hobby.

i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 24, 2018 - 09:45am PT
yeah, except that cosmic 'outed' winemaker for what he thought was a fraudulent GoFundMe only days ago.

Similarly, there would be nothing false in Somebody's report. It would just be up to whomever gets the report to decide where his domicile is. Nothing false about it though.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2018 - 11:12am PT
Is it any kind of crime to have your pictures lifted from somewhere and then photoshopped and reposted elsewhere?

Maybe not...after all, this kind of stuff happens to political figures all the time. Remember when the Trump administration totally 'shopped the Jim Acosta incident and his hand movement?

If it's not illegal, it's at least pretty damn slimy and uncool.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2018 - 12:24pm PT
Speaking OF slimmy & uncool, here's a link to the Associated Press breakdown of this week's Trump lies. It's, as usual, an amazing list.

AP Fact Check: On break, no break by Trump in twisting facts

Displaying a thin grasp of science, President Donald Trump questioned the reality of global warming because it was cold outside. Then came a federal report laying out the severe consequences of climate change and rebutting the notion that a frigid snap means it isn't happening.

Sizing up the U.S.-Mexico border, Trump declared he had closed it this past week and mandated that "no one's coming in." Actually, one crossing from Mexico, among dozens that stayed open, was partially closed before rush hour and pedestrians still had access to the U.S. during that time.

Before and throughout his Thanksgiving vacation in Florida, Trump took no holiday from twisting facts across a broad front — on Saudi Arabia, the recent election and the 2001 terrorist attacks among the topics.

A look at some of his rhetoric:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/factcheck/ap-fact-check-on-break-no-break-by-trump-in-twisting-facts/ar-BBQ2yOX
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 24, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
Another reason not to use your real name on the internet.

The people search engines often know where you live. They give the general area. age. relatives, for free, and exact address for a fee.

I searched my name, and they have me nailed pretty well.
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 24, 2018 - 02:41pm PT
I wouldn't count on what a single engine indicates. Others may well tell a different story. Just type your name and city into google, and you get quite a few results.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 24, 2018 - 02:46pm PT
I can't imagine a life so empty that I'd spend time stalking some dude on a climbing website. Lol
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 24, 2018 - 02:51pm PT
Fear, more like a privacy warning shot to folks. Be careful what you put on the internet.

Bury your head in the sand, and shoot the messenger, if you like.

And Cosmic, WTF are you showing your own searches?

Delete them and all the other details as well.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 24, 2018 - 03:27pm PT
Quote Here
It's quite alarming that some of you would turn your head to a person committing a felony, simply because they happen to share your pointless hobby of rock scaling and post on this web forum.

Some of us have a higher level of integrity than that and believe that laws should be enforced, particularly laws ensuring the integrity of our voting process.

No, I have no intention of just ignoring someone committing a felony. And no, "Cosmic" registering your vehicle in California by using a family or acquaintance address and claiming that as your domicile doesn't "prove" anything except that in addition to voter fraud you also are registering your car in the wrong state.

The prosecutor will look at the facts of the case. It's cute that you think the person making the report has any bearing on the facts of the case. You live in Las Vegas, it is your permanent home. You return to Las Vegas after working trips, as you have already stated. I believe you even showed us photos of your trailer park in Vegas. Of course you will have a chance to explain all this to the prosecutor, and "prove" your case. Unfortunately for you, a registration card won't be sufficient and all the evidence points toward felony voter fraud. A tip for you: Don't piss off the Surenos, they run the show inside.

What law is Cosmic allegedly violating? Take it from me, even as Supertopo's worst lawyer (or pretend lawyer, according to least one ST blowhard), I think most people would agree it's hard to say much about whether someone has "committed a felony" unless we know what the felony is, and what the state needs to prove to get a conviction (i.e., what are the "elements" of the crime).

Regarding "fraud" in general: you're not committing fraud if you just happen to be wrong about something or make a mistake, just like you're not lying if you merely happen to be wrong.

Perhaps there is some sort of California "voter fraud" law that doesn't require a normal "fraud" type of intent, but I'll believe it when I see it. Assuming "voter fraud" is akin to non-voter fraud, it seems farfetched to claim that Cosmic has committed fraud even if he may not be properly voting in CA, as he clearly believes he is properly voting there and his belief is based on some reasonable suppositions. (I have no idea whether he should be voting in CA or some other state. I do have some vague recollection from law school, if in fact I went there, that determining state citizenship can be tricky for people who spend a lot of time in two or more states, and to large extent they can decide which state they're a resident / citizen of. Have no idea how that may relate to the alleged "voter fraud" here, as again, I'm not sure what law has allegedly been broken.)

If we're going to play Internet cops and lawyers (terrible weather along the Front Range today, at least that's my excuse): is it actionable (civilly, not criminally) to accuse someone of committing a felony without any reasonable basis to believe it? I seem to recall something about defamation per se . . .
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 24, 2018 - 03:49pm PT
You can't sue an anonymous avatar for defamation.

I don't know that it makes sense to do it "in real life" in a situation like this. (Although I wouldn't put it past the blowhard who accuses me of being a fake lawyer and various other ST weirdos.)

But people do sue anonymous Internet posters. The file the lawsuit against "John Doe," then take discovery (subpoenas) against the various Internet entities that may have information (here, that would be Supertopo and the email service provider that handles the account the poster used with Supertopo).
Hard to say how it would play out in any particular case, but unless the poster really covered his tracks well, it might be possible to track him down with the assistance of some subpoenas.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 24, 2018 - 04:43pm PT
Cosmic....If you're lucky the warden will let you out for work detail to wash windows...The bad news is your cell mate is xcon....
WBraun

climber
Nov 24, 2018 - 04:51pm PT
SomebodyAnybody ---- "Some of us have a higher level of integrity ....."

Says the anonymous internet coward to the guy who actually uses his real identity here.

What a st00pid hypocrite .....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 24, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
Hillary didn't win the popular vote in 2016...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 24, 2018 - 07:21pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
Simple minds can only handle simple information.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 24, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
It wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world if this thread disappeared.

Fritz?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 24, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
^^^^
+ 100

This has degenerated to a shitshow. It's only reinforcing why CMac & Co are fed up with the bullshit of ST Forum drama, and the departure of valuable voices.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 24, 2018 - 09:52pm PT
Okay, enough of this petty bickering. What we really need is a birth certificate. Many people are saying Cosmic is a reptilian. There is no evidence proving that he is not.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2018 - 10:50pm PT
I sigh for those who bicker, when this is an election update thread.

Sigh.
couchmaster

climber
Nov 25, 2018 - 07:49am PT


[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 25, 2018 - 08:30am PT
Spot on, couchmaster.

Should be required viewing for anyone posting on ST polititard threads.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 25, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
You haven't been paying attention ... Keep your eye on the ball ...

Arkansas Swamp Bleeds as Clintons Circle The Drain
https://www.coreysdigs.com/clinton-foundation/arkansas-swamp-bleeds-as-clintons-circle-the-drain/


https://newspunch.com/former-democrat-chairman-videos-abuse/


Let's hear it for the coming indictments!!!!!

Man its about time.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 25, 2018 - 07:38pm PT
Hi, Klimmer 2.0!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 25, 2018 - 07:38pm PT
Red Alert: A Blue Wave in Orange County
By JOHN FUND
November 25, 2018 7:01 PM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/11/midterm-election-results-orange-county-california-should-worry-republicans/


Time to worry when the heart of Reagan conservatism turns blue.

The Republican loss of 40 seats in the House came about in large part because suburban voters gave the GOP only 49 percent of their votes. From Denver to Atlanta to Salt Lake City to McLean, Va., GOP incumbents were toppled by moderate-sounding Democrats who made explicit appeals to voters repelled by Trump and his smash-mouth tactics. They would rein in his presidency, they promised, and civility and centrism would make a comeback.

That’s a highly doubtful proposition to bet on. But the appeal worked. And nowhere was its success so spectacular as in Orange County, Calif., a collection of suburbs shaped by the Automobile Age whose population of 3.2 million exceeds that of 22 states. Starting in January, Orange County will be represented by seven Democrats in the House and zero Republicans. GOP incumbents Mimi Walters and Dana Rohrabacher were defeated in the midterms, and Democrats took the place of retiring incumbents Ed Royce and Darrell Issa. As Los Angeles Times columnist Gustavo Arellano wrote, the shift was propelled by “millions of dollars in donations to local Democrats, an invigorated volunteer base, and a slew of first-time candidates.” But the Democratic sweep was still shocking.

It’s hard to overestimate the importance of Orange County in the modern growth of conservatism. Political analyst Jay Cost says that its upscale suburbs were “ground zero for the rebuilding of the post-war Republican party.” Richard Nixon grew up in Orange County and retired there after his presidency. Ronald Reagan used to joke it was where “all good Republicans went to their reward.”



OC turns Blue. Heh!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 25, 2018 - 07:55pm PT
Ironically the Republican gerrymandering of the 49th district helped OC go blue. The Republicans carved out a big chunk of heavily red southern OC to offset the more progressive north San Diego county. Eventually the San Diego county portion of the 49th more than offset the red OC piece of the 49th.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Nov 25, 2018 - 08:39pm PT
^ ^
That's the thing about gerrymandering. It can give an unfair advantage for a time, but it's fragile. With all the perceived faults in our system of government, it's still more or less a democracy, and if there's a clear majority for one side or the other, they're going to win in the long run although maybe not the short run. It's just when it's very close that a minority can "win."
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 25, 2018 - 08:58pm PT
Maybe, but such manipulations are against the general spirit of a true representative democracy.
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 25, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
In CA, an independent commission draw the districts.

https://ballotpedia.org/Redistricting_in_California
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 25, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
In CA, an independent commission draw the districts.

That is a relatively new concept, only started in 2010. There are still a lot of gerrymandered districts in existence.
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 26, 2018 - 07:29am PT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California%27s_49th_congressional_district
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 26, 2018 - 07:47am PT
OC turns Blue. Heh!

I heard a republican political hack say that this is temporary.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 26, 2018 - 08:35am PT
That would seem likely. But it sure is a sweet irony for the time being!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 26, 2018 - 09:47am PT
Hard to say why OC went blue ...Maybe the OC voters didn't want a President who's colluding with a dictator run country that has nukes pointed at us...?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 26, 2018 - 10:37am PT
OC has been trending blue for at least 10 years.
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 26, 2018 - 10:39am PT
The link above shows Issa won by 20 points in 2014 and barely won in 2016. Takes more than shifting demographics to nearly overcome that kind of beatdown in a couple years.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 26, 2018 - 10:48am PT
Hard to say why OC went blue ...Maybe the OC voters didn't want a President who's colluding with a dictator run country that has nukes pointed at us...?

There are long term trends. But probably the single biggest change in well to do suburban republican districts in the last 2 to 4 years is that college educated women that had previously voted R went Dem. Trump's misogyny has a lot to do with that.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 26, 2018 - 11:08am PT
This year there have been big discrepancies between the popular vote and legislative seats. Democrats were taking 55% to 65% of the popular vote, but republicans won 55% to 65% of the legislative seats in those corresponding elections.

It would be nice to have a constitutional amendment that monitors such outcomes. When the discrepancies are so large, the state elections need to be invalidated and district boundaries re-drafted by independent commissions.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 26, 2018 - 11:28am PT
^^^

It's interesting to me that (of all people) Arnold Schwarzenegger is pushing and working hard for "anti-gerrymandering" laws and initiatives. Nationwide.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 26, 2018 - 11:42am PT
To be honest Arnold is a horrible Republican
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 26, 2018 - 12:13pm PT
Thanks for your honesty...
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 26, 2018 - 12:20pm PT
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia

Nov 26, 2018 - 11:08am PT
This year there have been big discrepancies between the popular vote and legislative seats. Democrats were taking 55% to 65% of the popular vote, but republicans won 55% to 65% of the legislative seats in those corresponding elections.

Two days ago, you claimed there were dozens of cases where the Democrats got two-thirds of the vote, but the Republicans ended up with two-thirds of the state delegates.

Keep moving those goalposts.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 26, 2018 - 12:32pm PT
Two thirds =66%.At least up north.

Keep attacking the messenger.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 26, 2018 - 06:26pm PT
What the f*#k happened to the What a F*#king Idiot thread?

Not that it was a legacy or anything.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 26, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
then this thread may soon follow out the door

every time RJ or Chris shuts down a political thread someone starts another one
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 26, 2018 - 06:35pm PT
The usual strategy is to 'lock' them, though, isn't it? Not completely remove them...

Whatever. I respect their ownership and intent for this site, but while you can delete the threads, the people are still here, and more will follow.

Maybe it was the expletive in the thread title?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 26, 2018 - 06:46pm PT
Every time RJ and CMAC close a thread another elf dies...
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 26, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
Who's killing these threads?

ExfifteenExfifteen

climber
Nov 26, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
and more will follow.

That is debatable.

Are we counting avatars? or unique subscribers?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 26, 2018 - 06:52pm PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 26, 2018 - 07:18pm PT
Why stop at that? Ban those that post to political threads, too.

But first, lift a pic from their social media site and photoshop it and post it to 'out' them. That'll show 'em!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2018 - 07:27pm PT
Cosmic posts:
Clever idea.
BAN the posters that, START, political threads.


And I reply, ban the folks who only post on political threads, throw fits, & use negative language.

Here's my last 20 posts:


and a list of some of my ST trip reports.

Climbing History & Old climbing gear.


Gauloises, Don Whillians, the Frogs & Climbing history.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1410426/Gauloises-Don-Whillans-the-Frogs-and-Climbing-History

CHOUINARD, GREAT PACIFIC IRONWORKS & Other Gear Threads
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2906806/CHOUINARD-GREAT-PACIFIC-IRONWORKS-Other-Gear-Threads


Chouinard carabiner timeline 12/11/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1327553

Royal Robbins/Mountain Paraphernalia timeline & history.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1022257&msg=1022257

My first mountain tent.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1060647&tn=20
The five stages of backing off climbs.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1039807/The-five-stages-of-backing-off-climbs
Climbing stories

Donini at The City of Rocks: Climbing as a Lifetime Sport! 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Donini-at-The-City-of-Rocks-Climbing-as-a-Lifetime-Sport/t10740n.html

Brenta Dolomites hiking & climbing 2014
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2482150/Brenta-Dolomites-hiking-stories-history-adventure-thread

Skyladder & North Face Athabasca Columbia Icefields 1974
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3051216/Skyladder-Mt-Andromeda-Columbia-Icefields-1974-Recently

A SLICK ROCK Adventure in Idaho with a single Blue Camalot Belay aug.2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-SLICK-ROCK-Adventure-in-Idaho-with-a-single-Blue-Camalot-Belay/t12821n.html

Pursuit of BlueBonnet tower and the Lost Crystal Cave. Dec 2009 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Pursuit-of-Bluebonnet-Tower-and-the-Lost-Crystal-Cave-Sawtooths-Idaho/t10506n.html

Elephant’s Perch New route 1/15/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Elephant_s_Perch_Sawtooth_Range_Idaho_NR_Epic_Pacydermial_Pleasantries_1977/t10566n.html

Climbing at city of rocks with Donini 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Donini-at-The-City-of-Rocks-Climbing-as-a-Lifetime-Sport/t10740n.html

Mt Fay 1978 revised 2011 Trip Report.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/MARK-FRITZS-BIG-MT-FAY-1978-CANADIAN-ADVENTURE/t11242n.html

Royal Robbins Birthday thread back in Feb 2010. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1089550&msg=1091782

A direct start on The North Ridge Goat Perch with Bruce & Jesus
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1591843&msg=1592030#msg1592030

Fred Beckey, Pete Schoening: Climbing Epic Sawtooth's 1949
Idaho Magazine has just published my eight-page story in their May 2012 issue!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1823447&msg=1825410#msg1825410

Outdoor adventures.

A Search for Cave art, Prehistoric women, Wine & Adventures in France Sept 2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Search-for-Cave-art-Prehistoric-women-Wine-Adventures-in-France/t12848n.html

White Knob Peak, 2014
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/3rd-times-the-charm-on-White-Knob-Peak/t12511n.html

2 1/2 day N. Idaho adventure into big-river & dark-forests
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2228541/2-1-2-day-N-Idaho-adventure-into-big-river-dark-forests

CATCH & RELEASE POT HUNTING/ AKA THE OUTDOOR MUSEUM
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2135320/CATCH-RELEASE-POT-HUNTING-AKA-THE-OUTDOOR-MUSEUM

August 2011 Climbing with Donini, Jan, Brokedown at City of Rocks;
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1584605/Donini-Brokedown-Jan-the-over-50-posse-at-City-of-Rocks

Owyhee adventures: rock, cows, ticks, guns, Prehistoric women, & secret Air Force bombing sites. July 4th 2011
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Owyhee-adventures-rock-cows-ticks-guns-Prehistoric-women-secret-Air-Force-bombing-sites/t11055n.html

6-day San Juan River Workout, rafting, & Lost Tribe of Prehistoric Women Search Epic!
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/6-day-San-Juan-River-Workout-rafting-Lost-Tribe-of-Prehistoric-Women-Search-Epic/t11013n.html

BIG Water on the Bruneau! A rafting epic.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/BIG-Water-on-the-Bruneau-A-rafting-epic/t10888n.html

High Mountain mine exploring & Via Ferrata, Idaho Style—August 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1245178/High-Mountain-mine-exploring-Via-Ferrata-Idaho-Style

A short piece on "getting high in the city" http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1205176&msg=1205513#msg1205513

2011 Short Springtime fun at City of Rocks
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Short-Springtime-fun-at-City-of-Rocks/t11032n.html

Our Big! 2010 fire
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1248574/A-Wake-UP-brush-fire-for-Fritz-Heidi

Some photos & remarks for my old climbing buddy Jim Donini about Terra Incognita in Idaho.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1665159&msg=1665217#msg1665217

2011 Sawtooth Mtns. Choss Adventure----The Grand Aiguille
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1599813&msg=1599813#msg1599813

2012 August A Short Visit to an Island! In NV. with a mtn. & history!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1902511/A-Short-Visit-to-an-Island-In-NV-with-a-mtn-history

4 mtns, 10 Cuts, & 100 miles of ridgetop dirt road in Idaho! Sept 2012
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1931187&msg=1931187#msg1931187

Training for, then climbing a 28,999’ Tropical Volcano
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/TRAINING-FOR-THEN-CLIMBING-an-AWESOME-8839-meter-28-999-Ft-TROPICAL-VOLCANO/t11824n.html

A Ridge So Far &/or Am I getting too-old for this? Idaho 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Ridge-So-Far-or-Am-I-getting-too-old-for-this/t13337n.html

FRITZ & HIS FLIES! BITING-FLESH ADVENTURES IN DEEPEST IDAHO! 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/FRITZ-HIS-FLIES-BITING-FLESH-ADVENTURES-IN-DEEPEST-IDAHO/t13327n.html
The Delights of Delano on the 1st day of Summer. 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3099204&msg=3099702#msg3099702


International Travel Adventures
Bariloche Argentina Treking becomes an adventure. 4/1/2010 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Patagonia-Treking-becomes-a-Fritz-Adventure-Bariloche-Argentina/t10612n.html

Mustang story on Nepal appreciation thread. Dec 2011
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1680800&msg=1684994#msg1684994

Spring fun in Spain, with some climbing too!
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Spring-fun-in-Spain-with-some-climbing-too/t11400n.html

A visit to Donini’s Bivy cabin in Patagonia & ensuing adventures
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2101371/Chilling-in-Chilean-Patagonia-at-Basecamp-Donini-Bivy March 2013

A Search for Cave art, Prehistoric women, Wine & Adventures in France 2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Search-for-Cave-art-Prehistoric-women-Wine-Adventures-in-France/t12848n.html

HOTEL TO HOTEL HIKING WITH HEIDI & JERRY & ANGIE IN THE DOLOMITES 2018

http://www.supertopo.com/tr/HOTEL-TO-HOTEL-HIKING-WITH-HEIDI-JERRY-ANGIE-IN-THE-DOLOMITES/t13352n.html

A visit to Dubrovnik, some sailing in Croatia, & an Octoberfest Party on the way home 2017
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-visit-to-Dubrovnik-some-sailing-in-Croatia-an-Octoberfest-Party-on-the-way-home/t13220n.html[/quote]




apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 26, 2018 - 07:30pm PT
Fritz, I think you're safe. You're the real deal.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2018 - 07:34pm PT
apogee: Thank you. I think folks like you, who remain calm & post interesting thoughts, have a place on this forum.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 26, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
Winemaker's in jail for illegal Fo Fund Me activity...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 26, 2018 - 07:44pm PT
Whoever turned him in must be a real slimeball. Somebody should start a GoFundMe to pay his bail.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 26, 2018 - 07:46pm PT
it was Hillary...Biotch...!!!
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 26, 2018 - 07:46pm PT
Gee, I have no idea who would do that...
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 26, 2018 - 08:01pm PT
Little Outing Forum Nazi strikes again
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2018 - 09:18pm PT
Cosmic? I sigh for all the hate & bile you carry & express on ST.

Perhaps, your Christmas season posts could reflect your Christian beliefs?

For a pleasant change?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 26, 2018 - 10:57pm PT
For EdwardT:
Republicans and Democrats in this month's [North Carolina] elections split the total votes cast for major party candidates in the state's 13 congressional districts about evenly, with Republicans getting 51 percent (a figure that is slightly inflated because one GOP incumbent ran unopposed). Yet Republicans won 10 of those races, about three-quarters of the total seats

...Preliminary results from the 2018 elections show Wisconsin Democrats received 54 percent of the total votes cast for major party Assembly candidates — a figure inflated by the fact that Democrats ran unopposed in 30 districts compared to just eight for Republicans.

Yet Republicans won 63 of the 99 Assembly seats, just one less than their pre-election majority. That marks an increase in the pro-Republican "efficiency gap" from about 10 percent in 2016 to almost 15 percent this year. Democrats also won or are leading in elections for all of Wisconsin's statewide offices, showing voter support for their candidates in races that are not affected by gerrymandering.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 27, 2018 - 01:50am PT
perhaps a climbathon where people donate a certain amount per pitch to a gofundme for winemaker's legal defense or drinking habit.

or, just to throw it out there. a wineathon.
i'd be down
bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Nov 27, 2018 - 05:49am PT
CA House District 21 just flipped from R to D due to absentees; this one had been called by pretty much everyone for the R some time ago. The D is ahead by abt 430 votes out of 110k cast and the lead is expected to widen.

Two House seats went to R incumbents who are either under indictment or who will soon be (Collins in NY and Hunter in CA); in each case, there is a D governor so at least for awhile (until a special election) it’s possible we will have a 42 seat flip in the House...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2018 - 07:39am PT
The very-conservative financial newspaper Business Insider is capable of reporting political reality, even when it is bad new for Republican leaders.

Americans hate Republicans' idea to cut Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security to bring down the soaring deficit. And they have another idea the GOP won't like.


• The federal deficit hit $779 billion in fiscal year 2018, the highest since 2012.

• Republicans have suggested that the US needs to cut entitlements — Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security — to get the deficit under control.

• But most Americans would rather reverse the GOP tax law and raise revenue to deal with the deficit rather than make cuts, according to a new poll.

• More Republicans, even, would rather reverse the tax cuts than make entitlement cuts.

Americans would much rather deal with the ballooning federal deficit by reversing the GOP's biggest accomplishment of President Donald Trump's term, rather than go along with the Republican plan to address the debt, a new poll shows.

According to the Marist/NPR/PBS poll, 60% of Americans would rather reverse the GOP tax law to deal with the growing deficit. Just 21% of Americans would rather make cuts to entitlement programs of Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

That does not align with recent rhetoric from Republican leaders on how to deal with the federal deficit — which, according to a recent Treasury Department report, hit $779 billion in fiscal year 2018.

GOP leaders, most recently Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, have said that cuts to entitlement programs are necessary to deal with the long-term debt problem that was exacerbated by the passage of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, the GOP's tax reform law.

According to the Congressional Budget Office, the TCJA will add $1.5 trillion to the federal deficit over the next decade.

Even a plurality of GOP voters don't even agree with the party's plan to deal with the deficit. According to the poll, 43% of Republicans said they would prefer to reverse the TCJA to address the growing debt, while 32% said cutting entitlements was their preferred method.

The results may be unsurprising given the relative unpopularity of the GOP tax law. Most Americans believe that the law primarily benefits wealthier Americans and corporations, and even Republican polling shows the law is not a political winner.

https://www.businessinsider.com/poll-medicare-medicaid-social-security-cuts-vs-gop-tax-law-hike-2018-10?fbclid=IwAR0Thcb6L6EcKMF5fG03p4uxMTYu7it6GcT4O21tWR9cv2F7Ix4Q38HaBng


Do any of the conservatives on here wish to share why they believe keeping the Republican tax cut & cutting Social Security & Medicare is better for them & of course America?

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 27, 2018 - 08:26am PT
How many conservatives are actually left here at ST? Seems like there used to a stronger voice from that direction.
WBraun

climber
Nov 27, 2018 - 08:30am PT
Quit your incessant constant whining.

You fools whine and whine and whine into empty space.

You need to see a physiatrist as you're insane ......
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 27, 2018 - 08:34am PT
'physiatrist'

Heh!
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 27, 2018 - 08:35am PT
childish
dirtbag

climber
Nov 27, 2018 - 08:38am PT
“No collusion!”

Manafort held secret talks with Assange in Ecuadorian embassy, sources say
Trump ally met WikiLeaks founder months before emails hacked by Russia were published

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 27, 2018 - 09:05am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Nov 27, 2018 - 09:15am PT
Indeed, let’s!
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 27, 2018 - 09:23am PT
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas....

10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 27, 2018 - 09:40am PT
Trump spotted in Death Valley
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 27, 2018 - 11:28am PT
Trump is a Democrat?

Does it matter? Both parties serve the same masters.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 27, 2018 - 01:07pm PT
That's only partly true.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 27, 2018 - 01:13pm PT
Q: "Trump is a Democrat?"

A: No, Trump is an ass.

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
Aha! Trump explains everything, in a 20 minute interview with a Washington Post reporter! He thinks with his guts, which are stuffed full of McDonalds junk food!

Trump slams Fed chair, questions climate change and threatens to cancel Putin meeting in wide-ranging interview with The Washington Post

President Trump placed responsibility for recent stock market declines and this week’s General Motors plant closures and layoffs on the Federal Reserve during an interview Tuesday, shirking any personal blame for cracks in the economy and declaring that he is “not even a little bit happy” with his hand-selected central bank chairman.

In a wide-ranging and sometimes discordant 20-minute interview with The Washington Post, Trump complained at length about Federal Reserve Chair Jerome H. “Jay” Powell, whom he nominated last year. When asked about declines on Wall Street and GM’s announcement that it was laying off 15 percent of its workforce, Trump responded by criticizing higher interest rates and other Fed policies, though he insisted that he is not worried about a recession.

“I’m doing deals, and I’m not being accommodated by the Fed,” Trump said. “They’re making a mistake because I have a gut, and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me.”

After more Trump spewing, I found this lie interesting.

In addition, Trump said the stock market was up 38 percent since he took office. In fact, the Dow Jones industrial average is up 25 percent since he was sworn in, less than the increase during President Barack Obama’s first two years in office.

More Trump spews & lies here.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-slams-fed-chair-questions-climate-change-and-threatens-to-cancel-putin-meeting-in-wide-ranging-interview-with-the-post/ar-BBQaAmg?li=BBnb7Kz&pfr=1
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 27, 2018 - 06:38pm PT
Trumpgut is a new irritable bowel affliction...Trust your instinks...
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 27, 2018 - 07:16pm PT
“There’s two people I think Putin pays: Rohrabacher and Trump,” McCarthy (R-Calif.) said, according to a recording of the June 15, 2016, exchange, which was listened to and verified by The Washington Post. Rep. Dana Rohrabacher is a Californian Republican known in Congress as a fervent defender of Putin and Russia.

House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) immediately interjected, stopping the conversation from further exploring McCarthy’s assertion, and swore the Republicans present to secrecy.

Before the conversation, McCarthy and Ryan had emerged from separate talks at the Capitol with Ukrainian Prime Minister Vladi­mir Groysman, who had described a Kremlin tactic of financing populist politicians to undercut Eastern European democratic institutions.

News had just broken the day before in The Washington Post that Russian government hackers had penetrated the computer network of the Democratic National Committee, prompting McCarthy to shift the conversation from Russian meddling in Europe to events closer to home.

Some of the lawmakers laughed at McCarthy’s comment. Then McCarthy quickly added: “Swear to God.”

Ryan instructed his Republican lieutenants to keep the conversation private, saying: “No leaks. . . . This is how we know we’re a real family here.”

The remarks remained secret for nearly a year.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 27, 2018 - 08:07pm PT
Witch hunt over

Found



https://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2018_48/2660646/181127-cindy-hyde-smith-se-400p_a9a8ebd4b3ff61dc7de235ae240b2924.fit-2000w.jpg
WBraun

climber
Nov 27, 2018 - 08:30pm PT
The Washington Post IS the main news outlet for the CIA to brainwash st00pid Americans.

Jeff Bozo (bezos) was paid 600 million dollars by the CIA to use his Washington Post to brainwash you idiots into believing any horseshit they want.

And it is working because all you clueless idiots are buying it ....

(you politards here st00pidest people on the planet)

zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 27, 2018 - 08:37pm PT
Wonder if they got a receipt
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
WBraun! Thank you for your thoughts.

Are you eating McDonalds takeout every day too, like our un-beloved President?

Jest curious?
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 27, 2018 - 09:05pm PT
WBraun, we know we are stuupid and we know we are brainwashed. It seems really, really unnecessary to tell us this again and again.

Here's an idea: you, WBraun, post positively, not negatively.

Instead of telling us what dummies we are (and what crap we rely on for information), share some of your wisdom.

Tell us what is true.

Tell us what to believe.

Tell us who to rely on for reporting truth.

There must be sources out there, after all you seem very wise indeed to the ways of the world.

Share with us and let us learn too (your repetitive cant gets a little old).

(Love you... mean it.)


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 28, 2018 - 06:44am PT
Try Infowars if you want to know what's going on behind the scenes...Deep State intelligence is the cure for brainwashed Loondom...I didn't realize that Obama was a gay Muslim...
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 28, 2018 - 07:59am PT
The moron in chief
[Click to View YouTube Video]
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 28, 2018 - 08:20am PT
it seems that our resident Crankloon Detector might have learned something from the KING OF CAPITALIZATION and Reality Manipulation by Syntax

“Despite the Democrat inspired laws on Sanctuary Cities and the Border being so bad and one sided, I have instructed the Secretary of Homeland Security not to let these large Caravans of people into our Country. It is a disgrace. We are the only Country in the World so naive! WALL”
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 28, 2018 - 01:03pm PT
Unfortunately there is a provision in the U.S. Code that permits the President to deny entry to certain "groups" of people that the President deems "undesirable."

The code does not define "groups" or "undesirable."

I looked up this code myself during a debate with a Trump disciple. Doesn't make Trump's action moral or ethical, but it is legal under existing federal law.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 28, 2018 - 01:33pm PT
Well, if there’s anything this president has been good at, it’s implementing every nook and cranny of the law that pertains to his agenda, or expanding the constitutional powers granted under the presidency.

Remember when Obama used Executive Powers? The GOP and Fox News sh#t chickens. Where’s the outrage now?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 28, 2018 - 01:57pm PT
SLR, what is the code section. If that was the law why did the Muslim ban get struck down? With regards to the caravan an asylum applicant can not be denied entry until the application is adjudicated. The president can not make policy that contravenes Congress
WBraun

climber
Nov 28, 2018 - 03:02pm PT
Breaking News it is a Whopper?

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 28, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
I put it up here before, but some things bear repeating

Anybody have relatives who are mentioned here?

A Brief Timeline of U.S. Policy on Immigration and Naturalization

1790 Congress adopts uniform rules so that any free white person could apply for citizenship after two years of residency.
1798 Alien and Sedition Acts required 14 years of residency before citizenship and provided for the deportation of "dangerous" aliens. Changed to five-year residency in 1800.
1819 First significant federal legislation on immigration. Includes reporting of immigration and rules for passengers from US ports bound for Europe
1846 Irish of all classes emigrate to the United States as a result of the potato famine.
1857 Dred Scott decision declared free Africans non-citizens.
1864 Contract Labor Law allowed recruiting of foreign labor.
1868 African Americans gained citizenship with 14th Amendment.
1875 Henderson v. Mayor of New York decision declared all state laws governing immigration unconstitutional; Congress must regulate "foreign commerce." Charity workers, burdened with helping immigrants, petition Congress to exercise authority and regulate immigration. Congress prohibits convicts and prostitutes from entering the country.
1880 The U.S. population is 50,155,783. More than 5.2 million immigrants enter the country between 1880 and 1890.
1882 Chinese Exclusion Act. First federal immigration law suspended Chinese immigration for 10 years and barred Chinese in U.S. from citizenship. Also barred convicts, lunatics, and others unable to care for themselves from entering. Head tax placed on immigrants.
1885 Contract Labor Law. Unlawful to import unskilled aliens from overseas as laborers. Regulations did not pertain to those crossing land borders.
1888 For the first time since 1798, provisions are adopted for expulsion of aliens.
1889 Jane Addams founds Hull-House on Chicago's Near West Side.
1890 Foreign-born in US were 15% of population (14% in Vermont); more arriving from southern and eastern Europe ("new immigrants") than northern and western ("old immigrants"). Jacob Riis publishes "How the Other Half Lives."
1891 Bureau of Immigration established under the Treasury Department. More classes of aliens restricted including those who were monetarily assisted by others for their passage. Steamship companies were ordered to return ineligible immigrants to countries of origin.
1892 Ellis Island opened to screen immigrants entering on east coast. (Angel Island screened those on west coast.) Ellis Island officials reported that women traveling alone must be met by a man, or they were immediately deported.
1902 Chinese Exclusion Act renewed indefinitely.
1903 Anarchists, epileptics, polygamists, and beggars ruled inadmissible.
1905 Construction of Angel Island Immigration Station began in the area known as China Cove. Surrounded by public controversy from its inception, the station was finally put into operation in 1910. Although it was billed as the "Ellis Island of the West", within the Immigration Service it was known as "The Guardian of the Western Gate" and was designed control the flow of Chinese into the country, who were officially not welcome with the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882.
1906 Procedural safeguards enacted for naturalization. Knowledge of English becomes a basic requirement.
1907 Head tax is raised. People with physical or mental defects, tuberculosis, and children unaccompanied by a parent are added to the exclusion list. Japan agreed to limit emigrants to US in return for elimination of segregating Japanese students in San Francisco schools.
1910 Dillingham Report from Congress assumed inferiority of "new immigrants" from southern and eastern Europe and suggested a literacy test to restrict their entry. (William P. Dillingham was a Senator from Vermont.)
1917 Immigration Act provided for literacy tests for those over 16 and established an "Asiatic Barred Zone," which barred all immigrants from Asia.
1921 Quota Act of 1921 limited immigrants to 3% of each nationality present in the US in 1910. This cut southern and eastern European immigrants to less than 1/4 of those in US before WW I. Asians still barred; no limits on western hemisphere. Non-quota category established: wives, children of citizens, learned professionals, and domestic servants not counted in quotas.
1922 Japanese made ineligible for citizenship.
1924 Quotas changed to 2% of each nationality based on numbers in US in 1890. Based on surnames (many anglicized at Ellis Island) and not the census figures, 82% of all immigrants allowed in the country came from western and northern Europe, 16% from southern and eastern Europe, 2% from the rest of the world. As no distinctions were made between refugees and immigrants, this limited Jewish emigres during 1930s and 40s.

Despite protests from many native people, Native Americans made citizens of the United States. Border Patrol established.
1929 The annual quotas of the 1924 Act are made permanent.
1940 Provided for finger printing and registering of all aliens.
1943 In the name of unity among the Allies, the Chinese Exclusion Laws were repealed, and China's quota was set at a token 105 immigrants annually. Basis of the Bracero Program established with importation of agricultural workers from North, South, and Central America.
1946 Procedures adopted to facilitate immigration of foreign-born wives, finace(e)s, husbands, and children of US armed forces personnel.
1948 Displaced Persons Act allowed 205,000 refugees over two years; gave priority to Baltic States refugees; admitted as quota immigrants. Technical provisions discriminated against Catholics and Jews; those were dropped in 1953, and 205,000 refugees were accepted as non-quota immigrants.
1950 The grounds for exclusion and deportation are expanded. All aliens required to report their addresses annually.
1952 Immigration and Nationality Act eliminated race as a bar to immigration or citizenship. Japan's quota was set at 185 annually. China's stayed at 105; other Asian countries were given 100 a piece. Northern and western Europe's quota was placed at 85% of all immigrants. Tighter restrictions were placed on immigrants coming from British colonies in order to stem the tide of black West Indians entering under Britain's generous quota. Non-quota class enlarged to include husbands of American women.
1953 The 1948 refugee law expanded to admit 200,000 above the existing limit
1965 Hart-Celler Act abolished national origins quotas, establishing separate ceilings for the eastern (170,000) and western (120,000) hemispheres (combined in 1978). Categories of preference based on family ties, critical skills, artistic excellence, and refugee status.
1978 Separate ceilings for Western and Eastern hemispheric immigration combined into a worldwide limit of 290,000.
1980 The Refugee Act removes refugees as a preference category; reduces worldwide ceiling for immigration to 270,000.
1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act provided for amnesty for many illegal aliens and sanctions for employers hiring illegals.
1989 A bill gives permanent status to non-immigrant registered nurses who have lived in US for at least three years and met established certification standards.
1990 Immigration Act of 1990 limited unskilled workers to 10,000/year; skilled labor requirements and immediate family reunification major goals. Continued to promote nuclear family model. Foreign-born in US was 7%.
2001 USA Patriot Act amended the Immigration and Nationality Act to broaden the scope of aliens ineligible for admission or deportable due to terrorist activities to include an alien who: (1) is a representative of a political, social, or similar group whose political endorsement of terrorist acts undermines U.S. antiterrorist efforts; (2) has used a position of prominence to endorse terrorist activity, or to persuade others to support such activity in a way that undermines U.S. antiterrorist efforts (or the child or spouse of such an alien under specified circumstances); or (3) has been associated with a terrorist organization and intends to engage in threatening activities while in the United States.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 28, 2018 - 04:36pm PT
Breaking News it is a Whopper?

Nothing new, Werner. It's the oldest rule in the books, The Golden Rule. You know how it works: those with the gold make the rules.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 28, 2018 - 05:19pm PT
^^^

Werner, thanks for taking my advice. I read the article (I hadn't heard the information before).

History will deem the Trump administration one of the most corrupt in U.S. history.

Unfortunately, the types of people who make their decisions based on emotion (his supporters are certainly not making their choices based on fact - they react and decide only on emotion) wouldn't care if "their" president kept a harem of teenage slave girls himself. He's "theirs" as long as he blends filling them with fear and making them feel good with all the right buzzwords.

No intelligence, no curiosity, no critical thinking. Only emotion. So sad.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Nov 28, 2018 - 05:21pm PT
#666

[Click to View YouTube Video]


"Woe to you, oh Earth and Sea, for the Devil sends the Beast with wrath,
Because he knows the time is short...
Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the Beast
For it is a human number,
Its number is six hundred and sixty six."

I left alone, my mind was blank
I needed time to think, to get the memories from my mind

What did I see?
Can I believe that what I saw that night was real and not just fantasy

Just what I saw in my old dreams
Were they reflections of my warped mind staring back at me?

'Cause in my dreams it's always there
The evil face that twists my mind and brings me to despair

The night was black, was no use holding back
'Cause I just had to see, was someone watching me
In the mist dark figures move and twist
Was all this for real, or just some kind of hell?

666 the number of the beast
Hell and fire was spawned to be released

Torches blazed and sacred chants were praised
As they start to cry hands held to the sky
In the night the fires are burning bright
The ritual has begun, Satan's work is done

666 the number of the beast
Sacrifice is going on tonight

This can't go on I must inform the law
Can this still be real or just some crazy dream?
But I feel drawn towards the chanting hordes
They seem to mesmerize, can't avoid their eyes

666 the number of the beast
666 the one for you and me

I'm coming back
I will return
And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn
I have the fire
I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take its course



Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 28, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
I don't know where people have been, but that story(with Acosta's name and "the meeting" not included) has been out there for years.

The stories I've read on it DID include mention that Epstein kept detailed records of who(adult men) visited his home/rode the jet/participated in sexual acts with the children.

From what I've read, it is all going to come out in the Mueller reports, and the names will be *very* recognizeable, and are nonpartisan. Bill Clinton, for certain. Who else, hard to say. This is what Donald Trump is whining about, when he says "so many lives will be ruined." As if the trophy wives don't know their husbands were participants. As if "a man deserves some semblance of privacy," even when it comes to the fact that he is molesting young teenaged, and possibly prepubescent, girls.

However, there will be parts of the report that will be available for pubic viewing and parts which, for NatSec reasons, are deemed to sensitive to let out. Those parts will be held secret until the time has elapsed that they can be requested - what is it 50 years? We'll almost all be gone - not that we really need to know their names.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2018 - 05:35pm PT
Since Trump has been putting a lot of energy into anti-Mueller tweet lately, I would call this "Lock them up" Trump re-tweet today a new-low for him, but it probably isn't a new-low.

In the cartoon are the usual folks, the Clintons & Obama, along with Robert Mueller & Trump appointee Rob Rosenstein.


His twitter account link. https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2018 - 06:30am PT
Supposedly there is breaking news on the Mueller gig incoming.

I saw on Twitter last night that after the tree-lighting ceramony, DT apparently received a phone call, went into what appeared to be a panic attack, and left the scene with the WH press corp left out of the motorcade.

We'll see.....

Edit: Appears it is about Michael Cohen entering guilty plea to making false statements to congress, specifically related to connections with Russia.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 29, 2018 - 07:47am PT
Minerals!!!

Sweet!!!
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 29, 2018 - 08:51am PT
Here is the story Terrie is alluding to.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html?fbclid=IwAR1ccMPqYj9v1J1Gj_JDhVzt4FOOtfNuaLAEsSKwvbVq7ehBV8Sul8zjTtE
what a f*#ked up country. I mean shithole country.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2018 - 10:38am PT


^No video that I know of. The WH press pool were Tweeting immediately upon being surprised to see they'd been left behind, as it is apparently the standard that they are ALWAYS with POTUS in the event of a historically important occurrence; to bear witness.

In today's news:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/29/politics/michael-cohen-guilty-plea-misleading-congress/index.html

Cohen had previously said talks about the Moscow project had ended in January 2016 just prior to the Iowa caucuses.

The Cohen revelations are potentially significant because they appear to show that Trump was engaged in business dealings with Russia in the midst of a campaign in which Moscow interfered to help elect him.
It could also intersect with other information that Mueller knows to create political and legal jeopardy for the President.

Trump responded to Cohen's admission at the White House Thursday, calling his former lawyer "very weak."
"He's a weak person," Trump said before departing for Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2018 - 01:19pm PT
Another interesting coincidence!

FBI raided the offices of Chicago Alderman Edward M. Burke.
Federal agents raided the City Hall office of powerful Chicago Ald. Edward Burke on Thursday morning, the FBI confirmed.

Agents arrived at the office early Thursday morning, told employees to leave and papered over the glass windows at the office’s entrance to conceal the investigation going on inside. A woman who left the office and did not identify herself said FBI agents were inside.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-met-chicago-alderman-ed-burke-offices-raided-fbi-20181129-story.html

FWIW

Burke's law firm did tax work for Donald Trump. Until June of this year.


https://chicago.suntimes.com/business/the-donald-and-the-alderman-break-up-burke-no-longer-doing-tax-work-for-trump/
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 29, 2018 - 02:02pm PT
You guys are just as bad as the "lock her up" Killary crowd. None of these central puppets go to jail, ever. It's as simple as that.

It's distraction circus while the murder machine rolls on.

If sith Lord Cheney and 'tard Bush never got sentenced for anything nobody ever will.

Red to Blue... Blue to Red... baaah.. baaah!

Tow the line for Israel and the MIC and live, don't and they kill you.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 29, 2018 - 02:21pm PT
None of these puppets go to jail

fear, seriously, don't just guess, use the internet search thing


start here - And Another Trump Associate Heads to Jail

https://www.gq.com/story/trump-associate-papadopoulos-jail


WBraun

climber
Nov 29, 2018 - 03:53pm PT
Fear IS right and antiloon IS always wrong ......
perswig

climber
Nov 29, 2018 - 03:58pm PT
10b4me, that Colbert clip last page was hysterical, crayon-eating and all.

Thanks!
Dale
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Nov 29, 2018 - 05:09pm PT
We wish you a Mueller Christmas
We wish you a Mueller Christmas
We wish you a Mueller Christmas
And impeachment next year

Indictments we bring
To you and your kin
Indictments for Christmas
And impeachment next year

We wish you a Mueller Christmas
We wish you a Mueller Christmas
We wish you a Mueller Christmas
And impeachment next year..
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
WyoRockMan!

Nice! I'm stealing that!

We wish you a Mueller Christmas
We wish you a Mueller Christmas
We wish you a Mueller Christmas
And impeachment next year

Indictments we bring
To you and your kin
Indictments for Christmas
And impeachment next year

We wish you a Mueller Christmas
We wish you a Mueller Christmas
We wish you a Mueller Christmas
And impeachment next year..
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 29, 2018 - 05:31pm PT
Lots folks did time as a result of Watergate.

Read it here

https://www.history.com/news/watergate-where-are-they-now
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 29, 2018 - 05:42pm PT
Donald Trump's Twitter posts seem to have taken a strange turn in the last 4 hours. That is to say, they seem to be as if coming from the typing of someone reasonable, rather that hyperactively declaring NO COLLUSION and designating nicknames to those he considers his opponents.

He's soft-selling some books that apparently back up his assertions of "no collusion"(yes, not in all caps!).

I think he may be whimpering......
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2018 - 07:01pm PT
I doubt if Trump or his rabid supporters have read much Shakespeare, or remember it, if they did. Otherwise, they might remember this:


"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a line from the early 1600’s play Hamlet by William Shakespeare, where it is spoken by Queen Gertrude in response to the insincere overacting of a character in the play within a play created by Prince Hamlet to prove his uncle's guilt in the murder of his father, the King of Denmark.

The phrase is used in everyday speech to indicate doubt in someone's sincerity. A common misquotation places methinks first, as in "methinks the lady doth protest too much".

The line's allusion to Gertrude's lack of fidelity to her husband has become a shorthand expression conveying doubt in a person's sincerity, even when the subject is male. As in the play, it is commonly used to imply that someone who denies something very strongly is hiding the truth.

It is often shortened to "[X] protest[s] too much", or misquoted with methinks at the beginning, as in "methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Some of Trump's "protesting too much" tweets on the Mueller investigation in the last few days.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 29, 2018 - 07:08pm PT

The US President has the emotional maturity of a 4th grader and the intellect of 3rd grader

apologies to those kids
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 29, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
^^^^
So sad. Trump has made America just another sh#t hole country.

I know a lot of people who love Trump, and they're actually pleased that he behaves like a 4th grader. They say that's the kind of president that America needs.

We're doomed, because these people are all around us.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 29, 2018 - 07:37pm PT
and they will continue to vote against their own self interests, calling them stupid only makes them more determined to prove you are right
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 29, 2018 - 07:40pm PT
I hope Mitch McCornhole and his colleagues allow Trump to presidentiate from prison...Keep the winning streak alive.....
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 29, 2018 - 08:10pm PT
Norton, you must be felling the holiday spirit...your assessment of Trump is too kind.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 29, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
Yep. from the New York Times:
There are still many shoes to drop in this scandal. “Given the extraordinary obsequiousness the president has shown in his relationship with Putin, it begs the question of whether there’s more leverage than this,” said Schiff. “That’s one of the reasons why we’re so determined to make sure that we look into any credible allegations of financial entanglements, whether that involves potential Russian money laundering in the Trump Organization or anything else.”

But even before those inquiries begin, we can see that Putin has been in possession of crucial information about Trump’s business interests that the president deliberately hid from the American people. In a normal political world, Republicans would have enough patriotism to find this alarming and humiliating. Every day of the Trump presidency is a national security emergency. The question now is whether Senate Republicans, who could actually do something about it, will ever be moved to care.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/29/opinion/cohen-trump-putin-russia-mueller.html

So what does it take??? What a bunch of unAmerican ..... things.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 29, 2018 - 10:00pm PT
and they will continue to vote against their own self interests, calling them stupid only makes them more determined to prove you are right

That's exactly what they tell me!

Trump supporters know they're stupid, and they take great joy in repeatedly demonstrating their stupidity.

I don't get it.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 29, 2018 - 10:20pm PT
The Deutsche Bank subpoena should be interesting. Might reveal why the bank was shoveling money to Trump when nobody else would. Trump owes DB 300 million bucks. Its okay Donnie, keep your phucking tax returns secret.

Bobs your uncle, or will Bob make him scream uncle?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/11/deutsche-bank-raided-money-laundering
Degaine

climber
Nov 30, 2018 - 12:33am PT
Antichrist wrote:
^^^^ and those people get upset when you call them idiots.

Who doesn't get upset when called an idiot? The term (or insult?) is not exactly a conversation starter.

While I never lose any sleep when called one, it certainly does not create a situation where I have even the slightest interest in engaging in a conversation or listening to what the person has to say.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 30, 2018 - 08:46am PT
I think you are misreading the Trump voter, AntiChrist. Some of them fit that description, but most are just desperate. They've been cast aside by the elite of this country, as the decision was made to chase profits for the few at the expense of the nation. Neither party has done a damn thing for them for over 30 years. They are mad as hell, and they are not going to take it anymore. As Michael Moore pointed out, Trump was their big "F*#k you" to corporate America.

Someone needs to start truly representing the interests of working America and until that happens, more Trumps are going to come down the pike.
WBraun

climber
Nov 30, 2018 - 08:54am PT
Antiloon is a missing brain cells nutcase who only knows how to throw a narrow brainwashed blankets over anything he sees to describe it ......
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 30, 2018 - 09:11am PT
"...people who love Trump, and they're actually pleased that he behaves like a 4th grader. They say that's the kind of president that America needs.

We're doomed, because these people are all around us."


I can deal with Republicans who appreciate many of the current administration's policies and directions, but dislike Trump's personality & behaviors as the leader of this Country. These Republicans are discriminating enough to know the difference, and have a clearer sense of what's right and acceptable. Constructive conversation can happen with these people.

It's the rabid Trump lovers that leave me completely lost- they love everything about this guy, including his continual and past asinine behaviors. I don't think there is any way to deal with them except to completely ignore and avoid them at all costs. Unfortunately, as you said, they are everywhere. That just doesn't bode well for the future of society and our Country.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 30, 2018 - 09:14am PT
DT's starting off his day with an admission - an ADMISSION - that he *looked at developing* in Russia. I can just see the palm-to-face of his attornies upon learning of that one.

I can also see Mueller smirking as he begins his line of questioning with "Let's talk about the building in Russia you lightly looked into...."



Donald J. Trump
‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
7h7 hours ago

Oh, I get it! I am a very good developer, happily living my life, when I see our Country going in the wrong direction (to put it mildly). Against all odds, I decide to run for President & continue to run my business-very legal & very cool, talked about it on the campaign trail...


Donald J. Trump
‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
7h7 hours ago

....Lightly looked at doing a building somewhere in Russia. Put up zero money, zero guarantees and didn’t do the project. Witch Hunt!
dirtbag

climber
Nov 30, 2018 - 09:29am PT
I’m going to make a bold prediction about 2020: trump will not be the gop nominee. Dems had better plan accordingly.

I’m not saying he will be behind bars or impeached, because Mitch McConnell ain’t letting that sh#t happen.

But let’s cut to the chase here: we know that what mueller is revealing is only the tippy tip of several icebergs. A ton of sh#t in all shades of brown will be coming out the next two years from both mueller and house investigations. Republican elites gambled on trump in 2016 because many of his skeletons were still hidden away safely in closets, and because they were caught off guard by his strong support and thus had no choice but to back him.

But...Do you think they will make a similar gamble on him in 2020 knowing what we already know about him, and knowing there will be much, much more to come? Will donors’ wallets open freely? Do you think trump will want to go through another four years of oversight hell, especially if the senate looks like it will flip in 2020? Wouldn’t spending his golden years (which for him is actually more orange than gold) golfing be more fun?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 30, 2018 - 09:41am PT
That's a very plausible scenario, dirt. And easy to see Trump announce that he won't be seeking re-election, and make himself out to be the noble good guy who has done his work and is stepping aside to let someone else continue his legacy. The rabid Trump supporters would lap that up, big time...and show up at the polls, esp. if Trump endorsed the new GOP candidate.

Of course, the reality of this scenario is that Trump would be stepping down because Mueller's noose is waaaaay too tight, and he's not going to be able to garner the funding and support needed to re-elect. He'd play it out as though he'd been victimized, just to protect his massively fragile ego, and to ensure his base turned out to vote.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 30, 2018 - 09:47am PT
John Kasich will be the GOP nominee in 2020

and he will be tough for the Dems to beat, he will be seen as a moderate
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 30, 2018 - 10:06am PT
I would be moderately surprised if Trump runs but his ego will no doubt have the last word.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 30, 2018 - 10:23am PT
there is another elephant in the room

... the contempt that a certain demographic has for education

you see them at his rallies wearing their MAGA hats, screaming in joy as he urges the crowd to physically attack someone and offers to pay for their legal fees for assault

"book learning" it used to be called, but it has always been "You think you are better than me"

"you think just because you went to college that you know everything and you look down on people like me"
--------------


You are not supposed to reply back in self defense of your education and the student loans that you will be making payments on for decades

instead, be ashamed that you are making five times their income and actually have a job that you like

never correct their facts, never show them why their conclusions are wrong

because that only makes them more angry, you are talking down to them, you are an elitist

and there are lots of them, more than 60 million adults, not children, voted for the Donald they adore
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 30, 2018 - 10:49am PT
Talk to someone with a pre-existing medical condition who is only alive today because Nancy Pelosi steered the ACA through the House and Obama staked his young presidency on it.

This false equivalency horseshit is embarrassingly uninformed at best, blatant lying at worst.

It's true, the Demopublicans scrape a few crumbs off the table now and again. But what did Bill Clinton do for working Americans? Squat! He talked a good game, but did what his donors wanted in the end. Obama talked the talk, but what id he do for hope and change? A half-ass healthcare reform bill that only insured more money in the pockets of private insurers.

The Democratic Leadership Council put the final Nail in the New Deal's coffin.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 30, 2018 - 10:53am PT
AntiChrist

Gym climber
Urth

Nov 30, 2018 - 07:04am PT
We are talking about people who pride themselves on being dumb, Dump voters. Duck dynasty types. People who listen to sh#t country music and sing along loudly "I'm a member of the DRINKIN class." Wooo, I get wasted AND I'm dumb!

My friend calls it "the shortest midget complex." They are all short (in mental capacity) and make it a point to prove they are the shortest. If they dropped out of high school and worked the same manual labor job for 30 years and hate anything that reqquires any kind of thought, they are somehow inherently better than someone who graduated, far better than anyone with a college degree, and infinitely better than anyone with a higher degree. They likely piss themselves with joy when people like Dump rip others off with scams like Dump U... serves them right for wanting to learn. They hate doctors, scientists, or any of those "elites" but take full advantage of their services.

The Repugs know if they destroy public education, force women to have unwanted babies regardless of the situation, and promote authoritarian faith based fairy tales they will always a solid base.


SomebodyAnybody

Big Wall climber
Torrance

Nov 30, 2018 - 10:18am PT
Trump will run, and will win the GOP nomination in 2020.
I do hope Kasich challenges him, but I don't think he'll beat him. The GOP base are feral, true believers. The moronic know-nothing, insulting, blustering, swinging dick persona of this president* is a feature, not a bug, to them.




Norton

climber
The Wastelands

Nov 30, 2018 - 10:23am PT
there is another elephant in the room

... the contempt that a certain demographic has for education

you see them at his rallies wearing their MAGA hats, screaming in joy as he urges the crowd to physically attack someone and offers to pay for their legal fees for assault

"book learning" it used to be called, but it has always been "You think you are better than me"

"you think just because you went to college that you know everything and you look down on people like me"
------


You are not supposed to reply back in self defense of your education and the student loans that you will be making payments on for decades

instead, be ashamed that you are making five times their income and actually have a job that you like

never correct their facts, never show them why their conclusions are wrong

because that only makes them more angry, you are talking down to them, you are an elitist

and there are lots of them, more than 60 million adults, not children, voted for the Donald they adore

Sounds like 2016 all over again.


And we know how that turned out.

John M

climber
Nov 30, 2018 - 11:00am PT
This is one of the better Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson discussion. Its long but worth it. Towards the end Jordan Peterson explains the psychological reasons for the need for the left and the right. A balanced left and a balanced right and the dangers of imbalances on each side.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 30, 2018 - 11:22am PT

and sure enough his ignorant base takes the bait

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 30, 2018 - 01:27pm PT
I am hoping tRump does the right thing and resigns in disgrace, a la Tricky Dick, but considering his ego and the fact he has probably never done the right thing, ever, the slow motion train wreck will continue to unfold.

No matter how many times tRump shoots someone in the middle of the street, his hard core base will find a way to justify it. But that base is dwindling, so I don’t see the tRump Train making it to the station for 2020.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Nov 30, 2018 - 01:36pm PT
I want to see him clobbered in the 2020 election and then hear him complain that it was rigged.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 30, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
They've been cast aside by the elite of this country
Perhaps so, but that doesn't explain their devotion to Trump.

The Republicans gave a $17 billion tax cut to billionaires. Then the Republicans said that the tax cut didn't pay for itself, so they were going to have to cut the safety net of the poor - Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security - to make up the loss. Now the Republican lame-duck congress is trying to push through more tax cuts for billionaires before the Dems gain more influence.

And the poor, stupid Trump fans are ecstatic about all of this! Their messiah is pounding them with a giant XL blue butt plug, and they're loving it. If the poor and stupid had a beef with the "elite" then they'd be marching on the White House with all of their guns.

force women to have unwanted babies regardless of the situation

Here in WV the Trump voters overwhelmingly approved a constitutional amendment that revokes a woman's constitutional right to abortion, and the legislators are now introducing bills that deny the right to abortion under ANY circumstances.

To protect the fetus, or course.



divad

Trad climber
wmass
Nov 30, 2018 - 02:44pm PT
The only human life that conservatives care about are fetuses and themselves.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 30, 2018 - 04:45pm PT
That's exactly what they tell me!

Trump supporters know they're stupid, and they take great joy in repeatedly demonstrating their stupidity.

I don't get it.

But Trump makes libtards mad!

In all seriousness, it really is the politics of resentment and spite with some racist, nationalist populism thrown into the mix.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 30, 2018 - 05:52pm PT
Stahlbro ,I hope you are right.

But , I digress,The Economy is Cranking and it is all due to our dear leader.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 30, 2018 - 05:58pm PT
Wilbeer, nothing tRump has done for the economy will last. The sugar rush is already wearing off.

That being said, if it is still cranking in 2020, and he survives impeachment, he’s got a shot.

Sad
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 30, 2018 - 06:00pm PT
Yesir.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 30, 2018 - 06:06pm PT
Trump will nominate himself for martyrdom and proclaim himself to be the greatest martyr to ever walk the earth. Then announce that he is done, claiming he is tired of winning.

WBraun

climber
Nov 30, 2018 - 06:13pm PT
Rolls eyes .... ^^^

Same old st00pid moronic responses that never change with you drunk with Trump conscious idiots.

No wonder you got an idiot for POTUS you're dumber than even him ......
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 30, 2018 - 06:34pm PT
That really hurt my feeling.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 30, 2018 - 06:38pm PT
No one listened to Klimmer or Walling and look what happened...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 30, 2018 - 06:39pm PT
Nobody listens,or cares. Lol
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 30, 2018 - 07:44pm PT

Still do not know ,which one .....lol
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 30, 2018 - 08:44pm PT
No wonder you got.....

Are you separate from all of us? We got, man, we.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
wilbeer! I love the sad, spurned Trump cartoon! I'm stealing that! Thanks!
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 30, 2018 - 09:37pm PT
John Kasich will be the GOP nominee in 2020
maybe
I look for Flake, Ryan, and possibly Romney to be in the mix.

I think you are misreading the Trump voter, AntiChrist. Some of them fit that description, but most are just desperate. They've been cast aside by the elite of this country

Gary, many of these people felt they were owed something. They never tried bettering themselves.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 1, 2018 - 06:09am PT
Here's a very interesting article clearly and succinctly laying out all the Trump/Russia connections (spoiler alert - there are a lot):

https://www.salon.com/2018/12/01/get-ready-for-the-end-game/
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2018 - 07:44am PT
^^^like frogs in a boiling pot, we forget how many they are, and how many more there likely are.

We also shouldn’t forget the countless number of lies told about Russia. Innocent people don’t lie.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Dec 1, 2018 - 08:07am PT
so on facebook, cosmiccragsman says he his in constant pain.

hell, I'd be in constant pain too, if I voted for trump.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 1, 2018 - 10:58am PT
Life is too short to be such a whiney little tw#t.

Hey, come on. He gave like $15 to my GoFundMe campaign!!!

https://www.gofundme.com/help-hillary-not-run-for-president
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 1, 2018 - 11:05am PT
I love Trump....He wants to cut Social Security ( reitrement funds ) and medicare so that the billionaires can maintain a much deserved tax cut...If the billionaires get tax breaks they'll create more jobs ( off shore ) and keep me employed..I love Trump...MAGA..
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Dec 1, 2018 - 03:10pm PT
Can't believe that someone who has grown up in the same generation as me has learned nothing from it other than what can benefit himself in a materialistic way..
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 1, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
Gary, many of these people felt they were owed something. They never tried bettering themselves.

Have to disagree there, 10b. These people were doing fine. Working hard at jobs that paid well enough to buy a modest home and send the kid to school. Then Wall Street decided they needed a bigger cut. They got that doddering old fool Ronald Reagan to say what people wanted to hear. Got people worked up over things that don't really matter, and once they got their Republican stooges in power the prosperity of the New Deal was dead in the water.

Republicans excel at propaganda. Goebbels was an amateur in comparison.

But as a Republican president said, you can fool some of the people some of the time...

We just need some politicians who are ready to tell it as it is, and it sure ain't Clinton and the Democrats.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 2, 2018 - 05:23am PT
Why is it completely appropriate for "those people" to have felt mad as hell for being left behind, taken advantage of, seemingly forgotten, who "those people" would have told people of color to suck it up, move to a better place, or that they have nobody but themselves to blame in this land of opportunity - just like their parents have told them for decades past?

What is different THIS time, besides the color of the skin of the ones on the outside looking in?

There ARE plenty of young white males who have found a way in this economy. I well remember the late 1970's, when factories were closing, and at the same time family farming was being rubbed out by mega-ag. The wake-up for my generation. It was scary, listening to men who'd worked years in one place, being laid off and no nearby factory hiring. They were angry.

They felt entitled.



Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 2, 2018 - 07:12am PT
Voting Trump in was a backlash. There was no other option. What was Hillary Clinton going to do different from the past? Nothing.

It's true, all racists are Trump voters, but not all Trump voters are racists. But y'all keep dividing people, your corporate masters love that.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 2, 2018 - 08:18am PT
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Dec 2, 2018 - 09:41am PT
Yep. Poverty for minorities is always the fault of minorities having no ambition. Poverty for whites is always the fault of minorities taking the jobs (the same jobs the whites consider themselves to be above). I fit the dump demographic pretty well... in fact the majority of my close relatives likely voted for the POS. Many are unemployed or work crap jobs... entirely their fault... they took the ARM loans for the house way out of their range. I had the same choices to make, I lived modestly, I'm fine financially.

And voting for Dump becausr Wall Street screwed the economy is dumber than f*#king stupid.
you hit the nail on the head. poor whites hate entitlement programs, unless they benefit from them.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Dec 2, 2018 - 11:16am PT

But as a Republican president said, you can fool some of the people some of the time...

You can fool some of the people all of the time,
All of the people some of the time,
You can't fool all the people all of the time,

But you can still fool most of the Americans, most of the time.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 2, 2018 - 12:01pm PT
you hit the nail on the head. poor whites hate entitlement programs, unless they benefit from them.

Being born a poor white trash hillbilly, I would disagree. :-)
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 2, 2018 - 03:32pm PT
Hey, I am inspiring to be a hillbilly.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2018 - 04:09pm PT
I got a Fox news fix last week. The talking heads on "Outnumbered" were clucking about how much we need a wall in Tijuana. Duh Fox News fans! There is not one, but two border walls in Tijuana.

In the early 1990's U.S. authorities, responding to the chaos and open flouting of the law at the border, built a wall—followed by another over the next decade. The first, made of Vietnam War-era steel landing pads, begins in the waves of the Pacific Ocean and stretches east for 14 miles along hilly terrain that sidles against a string of working-class neighborhoods, the Tijuana airport and the Otay Mesa factory zone, stopping only when it meets the mountain known as Nido de las Águilas (Eagles’ Nest), on Tijuana’s eastern edge.

The second, parallel barrier, made of fencing and prison-like stanchions, spans several miles east and west on either side of the legal crossing point at San Ysidro. Along with these structures came additional surveillance such as buried sensors and poles with cameras peering in every direction.

Trump & his, scared of refugees, supporters & minions want to build a wall that would cost at least 18 billion dollars along the 2,000 miles of Mexican border.

Of course they manage to ignore 700 miles of wall and fencing that already exist in the places where walls & fences could do the most good.


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/06/25/us-mexico-border-wall-works-tijuana-218835

zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 3, 2018 - 07:09am PT
White power. Is there any other kind?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
couchmaster

climber
Dec 3, 2018 - 10:45am PT

This picture? Yeah, about that...

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 3, 2018 - 11:01am PT
whoa! how did you do all of this verifiable truth-finding on your own,
Couchmaster? FWIW there are at least as many "camera man" (s) in your "undoctored" image. which is pretty cool.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 3, 2018 - 12:24pm PT
Of course there was lots of "camera mans", it was an international media event. Loved the toddler MS-13 shot.
couchmaster

climber
Dec 3, 2018 - 01:57pm PT


"lol couchmaster what a f*#king sheep."

^^Tuttle, this is what someone who is too f*#king stupid to discuss the evidence would say.

Ta ta
WBraun

climber
Dec 3, 2018 - 02:04pm PT
CNN = C.I.A. news network

It's long known fact that CNN is the dirty tool of disinfo of the main loon media.

CNN is the dirty slandering news media to brainwash st00pid Americans ....

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 3, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
yes, yes, CNN is the big problem here Werner. not people's inability to, disinterest in, discerning truthy news sources. 🙄
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 3, 2018 - 03:38pm PT
It is rather peculiar that Fox News does not hire an army of investigative reporters and counter these photo ops with actual proof of such media atrocities.

Maybe because they are owned by a cheap ,right wing ,foreigner, that would rather rely on internet pawns.

You know ,actual proof against these liberal media outlets.

We would then have at least 3% of the media giving us the true facts.

Kind of like climate change denial.

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2018 - 04:22pm PT
Couchmaster! Re the images you posted.

How very, very, very scary those folks wanting across our very-well secured Tijuana border must be to you & Donald's other skeeerd minions.

I'm curious if you bothered to read the article I linked to, which actually was somewhat favorable towards the Tijuana border wall?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 3, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
Fritz,it’s a hoax.




Laughing Hardly
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 3, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
CNN is controlled by Hanoi Jane Fonda, cuz she is in Ted's head, big time, lives there rent free. Minor detail that Ted no longer has anything to do with CNN, but why the hell let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Dec 3, 2018 - 05:20pm PT
CNN is the dirty slandering news media to brainwash stOOpid Americans....


Good thing we have Fox to counter that....
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 3, 2018 - 05:27pm PT
Always amusing when someone claims you are stupid and gullible for NOT believing in a conspiracy theory.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 3, 2018 - 05:33pm PT
When is that?


Lol
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 3, 2018 - 05:53pm PT
Donald J. Trump
‏Verified account @realDonaldTrump
9h Looking forward to being with the Bush Family to pay my respects to President George H.W. Bush.

Seriously - how can his children just LET him Tweet such inane things. If anyone could say "You know, you really have no grasp on what is appropriate, and we'd like to HELP you reduce the number of social errors.", it would be his grown children.

Seiously, I would like to see a report ask them how that can just ignore it. Do THEY not realize how bad it is?
couchmaster

climber
Dec 4, 2018 - 01:05pm PT

Who's screaming? The Korean photographer for Reuters who took that picture didn't speak spanish. Sure, it's a great shot and he can sell it to lots of other news organizations, none of whom witnessed it in person but they ran with the "story" anyway cause they had a great photo - but whats the real story? We all interpret what we think it is based on our beliefs and prejudices but we get false impression that way. I can give lots of examples of that very thing occurring we learn the truth later, but here's a real recent one to ponder. There was an award winning picture you must know of a little girl crying as a U.S. Border Patrol agent patted down her mother which became a symbol of the families pulled apart by the Trump administration enforcing the Obama era border laws. That famous shot even got the kid on the cover of Time. But what everyone thought was happening wasn't. All the major media picked it up and drilled how horrible Trump was to this little girl. It was a lie. The girl was not separated from her mother except for a brief moment when the mom put her down as agents patted her down.

"“I personally went up to the mother and asked her, ‘Are you doing okay? Is the kid okay?’ and she said, ‘Yes. She’s tired and thirsty. It’s 11 o’clock at night,” Ruiz told CBS News......The heart-wrenching image, captured by award-winning Getty Images photographer John Moore, was spread across the front pages of international newspapers. It was used to promote a Facebook fundraiser that has collected more than $18 million to help reunite separated families."


..and it was a lie. Here's the Washington Post telling that whole story if you have any interest in what the truth was after the fact:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/06/22/the-crying-honduran-girl-on-the-cover-of-time-was-not-separated-from-her-mother-father-says/?utm_term=.3e6af6f14e28

Not justifying the separation thing, but that wasn't what happened in this instance. I'm not even saying that everything didn't occur to someone else at someplace other to somebody and there was no photo of it. Likely. I'm saying that all of the story's using that photo were incorrect and as consumers of info, we need to keep our guard up. If you think the media doesn't have an agenda, I have a bridge to sell you. In fact, most media would sell you that bridge themselves and pocket the money. Don't think I believe the government is any better. The reverse is true, google Operation Mockingbird if you want to start down that road.

"“Perdicaris alive or Raisuli dead!”"
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 4, 2018 - 01:09pm PT
Who's screaming?

Your meme screams conspiracy.

Sure, deflect from your 3rd grade meme by talking about another pic.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 4, 2018 - 02:02pm PT
At a book talk in Missoula, Montana, Monday night, former Vice President Joe Biden said he thinks he is the “most qualified person in the country to be president.”

The Pennsylvania native said his decision about a bid for the White House is coming in the next six weeks to two months. Biden’s aides confirmed to ABC News that he thinks the most pressing issues the nation faces now -- foreign policy and helping the middle class -- are “in his wheelhouse.”

Can't wait.

Stop posting 3rd grade memes, couch.

It's an accurate reflection of the MSM's 3rd grade mentality.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 4, 2018 - 03:03pm PT
There must be a good media bashing explanation for the tear gas.

Perhaps Soros was training them how to riot.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 4, 2018 - 07:15pm PT
@Norton say - there is another elephant in the room

... the contempt that a certain demographic has for education


"book learning" it used to be called, but it has always been "You think you are better than me"

"you think just because you went to college that you know everything and you look down on people like me"
------


You are not supposed to reply back in self defense of your education and the student loans that you will be making payments on for decades

instead, be ashamed that you are making five times their income and actually have a job that you like


Behold the Arrogance! Trust me, Norton, your degree isn't as important as you think it is. And neither are you. An undergrad finance? Out of the UC system? That was paid for, in large part, by the same ordinary hard-working taxpayers you now seem compelled to look down your nose at? Well done. You know, many of us actually worked our way through school without racking up unforgivable debt. (One of the best caveats Congress ever slipped into a bill, BTW.)

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 4, 2018 - 07:22pm PT
Well said Lituya....!!!
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 4, 2018 - 07:30pm PT


monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 4, 2018 - 08:17pm PT
You are clueless as usual, Lit.

Norton paid for his college education by working at a gas station, and it wasn't in California.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Dec 4, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
I saw this today and immediately thought of Cosmic :)

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2018 - 08:51pm PT
There was no love today between President Trump at President George H.W. Bush’s funeral service & the other four living ex-presidents attending.


Wednesday's funeral service for former President George H.W. Bush served as a rare reunion of the remaining members of the presidents club, but the front-row banter among Barack Obama, Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter and their spouses came to an uneasy end when President Donald Trump and wife Melania arrived.

The encounter was a real-time illustration of the uneasy ties between the current occupant of the White House and his predecessors, suggesting Trump as a member-in-name-only of the Oval Office fraternity. While the funeral ceremony itself was a warm celebration of the late president, the relationships between the surviving presidents are considerably cooler.

The ceremony's tributes at times stood as an unspoken counterpoint to Trump's leadership, as historian Jon Meacham eulogized Bush by recounting his life's credo: "Tell the truth, don't blame people, be strong, do your best, try hard, forgive, stay the course." George W. Bush added of his father: "He could tease and needle, but not out of malice."

The late Bush was the de facto chair of the modern incarnation of the president's club, transcending contentious campaigns and party lines to bring together fractious personalities who share that rarified experience.

Trump has sought to meet the elder Bush's passing with grace, a contrast to the rhythms of much of his tumultuous presidency. He came to office after a campaign in which he harshly criticized his Democratic predecessors and co-opted a Republican Party once dominated by the Bush family.

Despite the traditional kinship among presidents, Trump's predecessors have all made their discomfort known in different ways.

"It's unusual that a cabal of ex-presidents from both parties dislike a sitting president and that's what you've got happening right now," said Douglas Brinkley, a history professor at Rice University.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/trump-odd-man-out-as-presidents-assemble-for-bush-funeral/ar-BBQvsWg?li=BBnb7Kz&pfr=1
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 5, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
Quote Here
Gary,

As former poor white trash* I'm sorry that you have come on hard times. Did you lose your job? Out of curiosity what did you do? Did you lose your house? How big was it and where?

*Raised in a single parent household of 4 with annual income below $10,000 in the late 80's (plus $5,000 in child support), neither parent had more than a high school diploma and we collected cans to fund our weekly pizza night. I assume that qualifies.

We took baths on Saturday and Wednesday. Used the hand pump in the kitchen to fill a big zinc tub. Heated water on the stove. Mom got first dibs, then sister, then dad, then older brother, then me. You can imagine what the water looked like at that point! The outhouse was tough in the winter, but at least it killed the smell.

Anyhoo, I've been trying to articulate, poorly apparently, why folks left behind in the midwest voted for Trump. Sure, nothing has changed, but nothing was going to change anyway. So at least they got to flip off the Establishment.

You have forgotten your roots?

Fortunately, I got onto the last days of working unions. I had decent paying jobs with benefits and pensions. The jobs that no longer exist thanks to the GOP and Dems selling out to the big money boys.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2018 - 05:22am PT

You have forgotten your roots?

It seems to me, the roots you describe are not the roots of "the disenfranchised Trump Voter(in general)."

It sounds to me like you were born into a family that had yet to live what is termed the American Dream. You may have been the first in the line to do so, or come near, with your union job.

Side Note: FWIW, union jobs were still going strong in WI until the mid '70's, and my younger brother still holds a good union job at Kohler in Sheboygan. He started there in the mid to late '80s, and stood on strike as Kohler wanted to reduce compensations, and then again when the time came for Kohler to fulfill it's promise of raising wages of the resultant 2nd Tier employees when "times got better." Union stood by their siblings and prevailed.

Back on: The disenfranchised "Trump Voter" - IMO - is a figment of the botnet imagination. They are young to middle age men and their women(yes, I did go there), and men who could have gone to school on scholarships and grants - could have done very well if they'd wanted to parlay their interest in video games into web development/coding and other tech venues. Could have had fulfilling work if they'd taken their family knowledge of agriculture and began working the fields in a craft style.

They are the sort of folk who strongly believe that people of color should pull themselves up from their bootstraps instead of pointing out how the system puts them in disadvantage. The type who decry "entitlements" while seemingly unable to accept that they use these same programs.

But above and beyond that - for every one real and living person who espoused those ideas, there are - I can't even imagine HOW many - bots spitting out the "Are ya with me, man?" content so those humans feel emboldened. It's a war, when the few send the many off to be killed. For what?

So - for those here on Supertopo who are pointing out the disenfranchised voter population - I have to wonder just where they fit in, today, with the population they describe?

...............
Cold War is coming back.

I beg to differ. We've been in a cold war for years; maybe never really left it. Now, we're tramping through the foothills on the way to things getting hot. God help us if they do.

This was why I was SO strongly for Hilary. She was THE candidate that understood what was going on; the only one capable of dancing the dance. But for f*#kityfux sake, people couldn't imagine a woman leading that dance. And, the other side knew it and used that fact to their advantage.

Pray hard that the derailing of the Trump Train doesn't leave us in a (more)vulnerable state, because that's about all that is going to save us.

Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 6, 2018 - 06:13am PT
Is that what they thought they were doing? Seems more like they dropped trou, turned around, and bent deep at the waste.

Oh, sure, they screwed up, but we need to understand their motivation.

Let's face it, anybody who votes GOP or Democrat dropped trou, turned around, and bent deep at the waste.

Back on: The disenfranchised "Trump Voter" - IMO - is a figment of the botnet imagination.

IMO, you are wrong. Our leadership destroyed our industrial heartland in search of short term profit for themselves.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 6, 2018 - 06:51am PT
^ That is true, and I agree, but people were HAPPY to buy at Walmart(and still area!) all along. The time to say NO to corporate commercialism passed a loooong time ago. It's almost laughable that people "got woke" during the Trump campaign.

People still cherish their stock portfolios, refusing to ponder the fact that those papers FORCE companies to eat their own for quarterly gains.

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 6, 2018 - 08:00am PT
When it comes to bitterness and resentment, Trump voters can't hold a candle to Hillary voters. And the Bernie voters who didn't support Hillary... they're on a whole different level of butthurt.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 6, 2018 - 08:14am PT
When it comes to bitterness and resentment, Trump voters can't hold a candle to Hillary voters.

I guess if you ignore the fact that Trump voters have a propensity to resort to violence, then yes that might be arguable.

And what about voter fraud, Trump finally has a good case of real election fraud he can rant about, but it was Republicans so mum is the word. Oh the hypocrisy.

dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2018 - 08:19am PT
Before we continue to make assumptions about poor white trump voters, studies have shown that most trump voters earned an income higher than the average Clinton voter’s income.

Racial animosity and xenophobia were the prevailing traits of trump voters.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Dec 6, 2018 - 11:44am PT
When it comes to bitterness and resentment, Trump voters can't hold a candle to Hillary voters.

I voted for Hillary, it was the first time I voted for a Democrat for POTUS since Trump was so awful. I'm not bitter and resentful at this point. I'm shocked, disappointed, saddened, disgusted, and embarrassed that there are so many partisan and self deluded people in American that support Trump. Not that Hillary is honest or not self serving, but she's an amateur compared to Trump in those aspects.

However if Mueller's report has good evidence Trump conspired with Russia to undermine democracy and steal the election and those same Trump voters continue to justify their support for Trump and his agenda at the expense of American Democracy and Justice, and the Republican Senate doesn't vote to impeach then I probably would become bitter and resentful.
WBraun

climber
Dec 6, 2018 - 12:23pm PT
If Trump conspired with Russia to undermine democracy and steal the election

No such thing was ever done by the Russian govt. in that election period.

The real perpetrators are laughing their aszes off at how st00pid and brainwashed you people are.

That's why they get away with this sh!t as is it's so easy to disguise and smear someone else.

The real perpetrators have years of experience and tools to deceive you sheep ......

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Dec 6, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
Werner, EDUCATE ME. PLEASE!!!

I admit that I am an ignorant sheep and utterly clueless too.

I want to learn.

You said:

"The real perpetrators are laughing their aszes off at how st00pid and brainwashed you people are."

Tell me (PLEASE) who the real perpetrators are. I promise to listen, learn and believe.

Please!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2018 - 12:47pm PT
The Russians invented ‘disinformation’. I have a book about it. To the extent that it is ‘proved’ that they ‘conspired’ to ‘affect’ the election the real import may well turn out to be that the ‘effect’ was just to cause mayhem AFTER the election which, to the unbiased observer, seems to be the only quantifiable result.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Dec 6, 2018 - 02:09pm PT
Before we continue to make assumptions about poor white trump voters, studies have shown that most trump voters earned an income higher than the average Clinton voter’s income.
Was the comparison of mean to average on purpose?
I would think it would be the other way around. The average of the Trump voter's income would be more than most Clinton voters earned.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2018 - 02:30pm PT
Trump voters earned more than Clinton voters. As I recall (I haven’t seen the results in awhile), it was a significant difference, but not a huge difference. Still, it goes against the conventional narrative.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 6, 2018 - 04:40pm PT
So sad. Trump has made America just another sh#t hole country.

I’m pretty sure you can include anybody in Congress who continues in lockstep with him. But shithole is where we are.


The break over MBS and republicrats is refreshing.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2018 - 04:49pm PT
Meanwhile the slaughter continues, as it did under Obama, in Africa by the millions.
Oh, but lose not a holy 2nd rate journalist even if scores of them have died in Mexico.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 6, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
The strange thing being the Saudi Arabia is a main financial backer of the spread of fundamentalist (Wahhabi/Salafist) Islam. It is heavily invested in the war in Yemen, which has killed tens of thousands of non-combatants. But the US public didn't get worked up until the Saudis brutally murdered a journalist, with extraordinary ineptitude, and the Turks not only spied on them doing it - sadly, nothing unusual - but ratted them out.

We (the American public) are a bunch lemmings, easily led around by the nose.

Last week, a photo of a woman and her children fleeing ICE launched teargas, was all the rage. The horror! The inhumanity!!! Where was the media when Obama's ICE agents regularly gassed victim?

Remember this stupidity?


Just another day.
WBraun

climber
Dec 6, 2018 - 05:06pm PT
Meanwhile, the slaughter continues

The world has become desensitized especially here in the USA.

Just stare at cell phone and drool while checking what fools are all babbling about is standard modus operandi nowadays .....
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 6, 2018 - 05:35pm PT
The contards are blaming the media again.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 6, 2018 - 05:42pm PT
They have to scapegoat someone.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 6, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
The contards scape goat CNN because they know it is the most reliable media source...
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 6, 2018 - 06:10pm PT
I think this letter from George Bush sums up what we are dealing with and the defects in basic empathy, understanding, humility, and awareness we must endure for two more years. This 'man', Trump, diminishes the United States and the Presidency every day.

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 6, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
And this. I am disgusted by this 'man'.




Edited to add: 'Now that's a dead parrot!"

[Click to View YouTube Video]
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 6, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
That is brutal and very telling .^^^^^^^^^^^^
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 6, 2018 - 06:36pm PT
He doesn't even know where to sign......

https://twitter.com/i/status/1069793689512271872
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 6, 2018 - 06:46pm PT
Both Pence and Trump had their hand on their hearts when they faced the aisle as the casket reached their pew, but somehow couldn't manage to keep it there when they turned to the front.

Not a good look.

No doubt Sketch is looking for an Obama or a Clinton pic now in defense of Trump.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 6, 2018 - 07:12pm PT
Sadly, but not unexpectedly, that image will mean absolutely nothing to Trump’s base. Matter of fact, many will herald it as proof of Trump’s anti-Bush, anti-establishment views.

“Just another day.”

Indeed.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 6, 2018 - 07:46pm PT
Wisconsin made the news.

The Democrats swept Wisconsin in November, riding on voter support of Democrat reforms.

The Republican response?

The lame-duck Republican legislature passed last-minute bills that would block or impede the promised Democratic reforms when the new government takes over.

The lame-duck Republicans also passed legislation that would impede any further voter choice and facilitate Republican control of the state government in the next election.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2018 - 07:56pm PT
I spent a while this afternoon looking for a reputable source for dirtbag's mention that Trump Republicans had larger incomes than Clinton Democrats. I didn't find one, but this Washington Post article that shows a lot of Trump supporters make decent money, does refute claims that most Trump supporters are lower working class. Instead, a large percent are also moneyed BOW's (Bitter Old Whites).

Among people who said they voted for Trump in the general election, 35 percent had household incomes under $50,000 per year (the figure was also 35 percent among non-Hispanic whites), almost exactly the percentage in NBC’s March 2016 survey. Trump’s voters weren’t overwhelmingly poor. In the general election, like the primary, about two thirds of Trump supporters came from the better-off half of the economy.

But, again, what about education? Many analysts have argued that the partisan divide between more and less educated people is bigger than ever. During the general election, 69 percent of Trump voters in the election study didn’t have college degrees. Isn’t that evidence that the working class made up most of Trump’s base?

The truth is more complicated: many of the voters without college educations who supported Trump were relatively affluent.

In short, the narrative that attributes Trump’s victory to a “coalition of mostly blue-collar white and working-class voters” just doesn’t square with the 2016 election data. According to the election study, white non-Hispanic voters without college degrees making below the median household income made up only 25 percent of Trump voters.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/05/its-time-to-bust-the-myth-most-trump-voters-were-not-working-class/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e4211de7fc47
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 6, 2018 - 09:08pm PT
Geez Fritz, it's pretty interesting that the numbers in both those graphs, Trump supporters and white Trump supporters, are EXACTLY the same. Seems a bit ... odd. If real, maybe it's because all Trump supporters are white? So what's your interpretation of this? Any deep thoughts here?
dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
Fritz: I apologize, I really should’ve provided a link.

Anywho, this is not the poll I was thinking of (can’t find it unfortunately) but it is consistent with what I stated above.

https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

Not an overwhelming difference, but it does rebut the notion that trump voters were poorer.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2018 - 10:07pm PT
dirtbag! Thank you for the link, which takes a little scrolling down.

It does appear from this CNN exit poll interview from 24,588 voters at the last election, that at most earnings data points, on the average, (not based on population) A percent of Trump supporters make more or the same as Clinton supporters.

So, although the figures do not approach enough to be statisticly accurate, I have to say they show poorer Democrats & better off Republicans. Please remember, "Figures Never Lie, but ---------.

24,558 respondents
Income
Clinton Trump Other/No Answer
Under $30,000
17% 53% 40% 7%
$30K-$49,999
19% 52% 41% 7%
$50K-$99,999
30% 46% 49% 5%
$100K-$199,999
24% 47% 48% 5%
$200K-$249,999
4% 49% 47% 4%
$250,000 or more
6% 46% 46% 8%
$100K or more
34% 47% 47% 6%


24558 respondents
Income
Clinton Trump Other/No Answer
Under $50K
36% 53% 41% 6%
$50K-$100K
30% 46% 49% 5%
$100K or more
34% 47% 47% 6%
Winemaker! Per your mention of the two charts of income of Trump Supporters vs white Trump supporters showing the same figures.

I suppose that does show some slight correlation between being a BOW (Bittter Old White) and just being a BOA (Bitter Old Anyrace).
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 6, 2018 - 10:08pm PT
Right kingtut but they don’t draw and quarter people anymore and they stopped burning people at the stake just when they perfected the slow way...oh well.
john hansen

climber
Dec 6, 2018 - 10:15pm PT
Slowly but surely Trump is going down.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 05:16am PT
This morning I'm in Alamogordo, NM, and came to a Denny's to get internet and breakfast. I ordered the "$4 Slam," which includes pancakes.

Went out to the van to get my maple syrup(I thought I could stomach the beet syrup they use in cheap places but one bite and...no. So, I went to dig out the syrup which was in one of the middle of the under-bed bins. Effort, when I haven't had coffee yet...

So, I go out and there's this dumazz smoking a cigarette directly in front of the door. Not only do I have to inhale his toxic pleasure, I have to contort myself to get passed him.

Because I'd read this thread while waiting...I thought "I should ask who he voted for." Of course, I know that's a bad idea, anywhere. I can't afford to have my tires damaged or windshield cracked.

On the way back, the waitress is out there smoking as well. She really ought to know better, and if not, someone at work ought to have made the policy of not fumagating the customers. Like most businesses with a clue do....
But, I had my answer as to who they voted for, as I got a snippet of the conversation, which went something like "You wouldn't believe.....these liberals...."

Safe to say at least one DT supporter is a stalwart denier of facts(smoking kills) and selfish(blocking entrance/egress - with a smoking cigarette in hand). I don't know his education level.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 05:57am PT
People are thinking the Manafort filing today is going to be...a problem....for DT and Co. Rumors Kelly is about to resign/being let off babysitting detail.

I know we've had many "today's the day" days in the last two years, and today will not be THE day, but just another of the many Days that we learn more about what's been happening.

I guess we will see. Today I'm just going from here to Las Cruces, not very far.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 06:57am PT
I just flew over your path on Tuesday

I get the feeling that like me, you appreciate a good window seat view.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 07:00am PT
Happie:

You might find this interesting in its description of Mueller’s approach.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/577264/
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 7, 2018 - 07:13am PT
...this dumazz smoking a cigarette...

Off topic I know, but I think smokers have no idea how badly they stink. I've never smoked a cigarette and am amazed at how far away I can detect a smoker. Where I grocery shop there is a smoking area, far removed from the entrance; one smoker 50 feet away triggers the alarm. I was in line at the bank the other day, smelled that awful smell and there was the reason several people ahead: young guy smelling awful from smoke saturated clothing. I wanted to say something but of course it's not my business; I suspect he's reducing his mating chances by quite a bit, except with other smokers.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Dec 7, 2018 - 07:37am PT
as one who used to smoke i can attest that when i saw a girl light up I knew that meant she was possibly in the dating pool. i wouldn't worry about they guy's chances it's a deep pool
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 7, 2018 - 07:56am PT
it's a deep pool

Perhaps, but fetid.

And could somebody, anybody, please tell me why ciggies are still legal?
Izzit so the French will still come here?
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Dec 7, 2018 - 08:07am PT
Off topic I know, but I think smokers have no idea how badly they stink. I've never smoked a cigarette and am amazed at how far away I can detect a smoker. Where I grocery shop there is a smoking area, far removed from the entrance; one smoker 50 feet away triggers the alarm. I was in line at the bank the other day, smelled that awful smell and there was the reason several people ahead: young guy smelling awful from smoke saturated clothing. I wanted to say something but of course it's not my business; I suspect he's reducing his mating chances by quite a bit, except with other smokers.
why do smokers always crack the window while driving or sitting in a car?

dirtbag, I saw something the other day where windowless planes are on the way.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 7, 2018 - 11:49am PT
I saw something the other day where windowless planes are on the way.

Domestic airlines briefly had outside views on the seat back screens, it was pretty cool. I like the ability to track my flight enroute, but a frontal view, pilots POV would be awesome. hell, I would even pay a little for it.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=473453
dirtbag

climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 11:57am PT
Yeah, I love the flight tracker feature.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Dec 7, 2018 - 12:29pm PT
Geez Fritz, it's pretty interesting that the numbers in both those graphs, Trump supporters and white Trump supporters, are EXACTLY the same. Seems a bit ... odd. If real, maybe it's because all Trump supporters are white? So what's your interpretation of this? Any deep thoughts here?


EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 7, 2018 - 01:32pm PT
Members of Trump's 2016 campaign team, convicted of conspiring/colluding with Russian officials, regarding interference in the 2016 Presidential election:




mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Dec 7, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
^^^
So far... so far.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 7, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
number of times President Trump has served time for obstruction of justice - zero

two can play that game
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 02:23pm PT
New SDNY Cohen filing: "Cohen acted with the intent to influence the 2016 presidential election [by committing campaign finance crimes] ... Cohen himself has now admitted, with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual-1."

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1071164004331069441

I guess DT is just going to say "Well, of course I knew. I mean....duh." or something.

Of course, paying of the women isn't "Russia," but so far Trump has been pretty much confirmed at lying about every accusation. Why would "Russia" be different? I mean - didn't anyone read the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf?"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 7, 2018 - 02:29pm PT
Did somebody say Flight Tracker?
Got yer Flight Tracker right here, braj!


It’s the latest release!
TLP

climber
Dec 7, 2018 - 02:49pm PT
Ha ha. Well, put that time to good use and go to the terminal store that sells glue and get some to sniff!
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Dec 7, 2018 - 03:47pm PT
Back on topic, this ship is sinking. The rats are always the first to realize this... except, maybe Biggie Rat..
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 7, 2018 - 04:01pm PT
I don't see EdwardT as a raving Trump fan so much as enjoying pushing the buttons of anyone he thinks is on the Left.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 7, 2018 - 04:18pm PT
Totally clears the President. Thank you!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 7, 2018

Trump re latest filings. Thank god it's over!!!!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 7, 2018 - 04:40pm PT
Thanks for this page of opinion.

monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 7, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
The Mueller investigation has already been an outstanding success.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 7, 2018 - 09:53pm PT
From the New York Times:

In crediting Mr. Cohen with providing “substantial and significant efforts” to assist the investigation, Mr. Mueller’s separate sentencing memo details new evidence of collusion with Russia, including a previously unreported phone conversation in November 2015 between Mr. Cohen and an unnamed Russian who claimed to be a “trusted person” in Moscow. The Russian explained to Mr. Cohen how the Russian government could provide the Trump campaign with “political synergy” and “synergy on a government level,” and offered to set up a meeting between Mr. Trump, then a candidate for the Republican presidential nomination, and President Vladimir Putin of Russia.

Hmmmmm.

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 7, 2018 - 09:58pm PT
QuoteThe special counsel focuses on Mr. Cohen’s contacts with people connected to the White House in 2017 and 2018, possibly further implicating the president and others in his orbit in conspiracy to obstruct justice or to suborn perjury. Mr. Mueller specifically mentions that Mr. Cohen provided invaluable insight into the “preparing and circulating” of his testimony to Congress — and if others, including the president, knew about the false testimony or encouraged it in any way, they would be at substantial legal risk.

Mr. Trump’s legal woes do not end there. The special counsel also advanced the president’s potential exposure under the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act for activities relating to a potential Trump Tower Moscow. Mr. Mueller noted that the Moscow project was a lucrative business opportunity that actively sought Russian government approval, and that the unnamed Russian told Mr. Cohen that there was “no bigger warranty in any project than the consent” of Mr. Putin. Here

Hmmmmm.
nah000

climber
now/here
Dec 8, 2018 - 09:04am PT
divad wrote: “the ship is sinking. The rats are always the first to realize this...”

so far the best recent entertainment value for me, in this whole slow motion shIt carrying train wreck, has been two things:

the first is, as per the above quote, watching the rats, scurry across the deck proving beyond a shadow of a doubt their own nature and the degree to which the ship is tilting... so far the ones i’ve read about are, in no particular order:

tucker carlson: on donald trump he told a swiss magazine that, “I don’t think he’s capable of sustained focus. I don’t think he understands the system. I don’t think the Congress is on his side. I don’t think his own agencies support him.” followed up by saying that in order to pass legislation, “you really have to understand how it works and you have to be very focused on getting it done, and he knows very little about the legislative process, hasn’t learned anything, and surrounded himself with people that can get it done, hasn’t done all the things you need to do so. It’s mostly his fault that he hasn’t achieved those things,”

rex tillerson: "When the President would say, 'Here's what I want to do and here's how I want to do it.' And I'd have to say to him, 'Well Mr. President, I understand what you want to do, but you can't do it that way. It violates the law. It violates treaty.” He went on to add, "He got really frustrated ... I think he grew tired of me being the guy every day that told him you can't do that and let's talk about what we can do." followed further by “it was challenging for me" to move from a "disciplined, highly-process oriented" corporation to work for a man "who is pretty undisciplined, doesn't like to read, doesn't read briefing reports, doesn't like to get into the details of a lot of things."

rudy giuliani: “Answering those questions was a nightmare, it took him about three weeks to do what would normally take two days.” followed up with “The more controlled a person is, the more intelligent they are, the more they can make the decision. But he’s just like every other client. He’s not more … you know, controlled than any other client. In fact, he’s a little less.”

john kelly: the guardian is reporting kelly was interviewed by mueller’s team, contra to the intentions of the trump team, and that due to this kelly and trump are no longer on speaking terms and kelly is expected to quit “in the coming days”.

michael flynn: it is now being reported that flynn sat for 19 interviews with mueller’s team and due to this it is being recommended that he not receive jail time. hmmmm...



my other favourite part in all of this is trying to guess what donald trump’s “I am not a crook” quote, contributed to the annals of american history, is going to be... so far we have at least the following vying for contention:

“very stable genius...like, really smart”

“very legal and very cool”

“Totally clears the President. Thank you!”

“NO COLLUSION”

but i think my favourite is still the classic, tried and true:

"No puppet. No puppet. You're the puppet. No, you're the puppet."



i honestly don’t know whether to laugh or cry through all of this...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 8, 2018 - 09:22am PT
Im betting Putin is getting some good laughs out of the prank of he century....Will the pee tapes end up on utube...?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 8, 2018 - 10:49am PT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 8, 2018 - 12:26pm PT
WTF? Must be time for a nap or his meds....


Watched Da Nang Dick Blumenthal on television spewing facts almost as accurate as his bravery in Vietnam (which he never saw). As the bullets whizzed by Da Nang Dicks head, as he was saving soldiers….

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 8, 2018

….left and right, he then woke up from his dream screaming that HE LIED. Next time I go to Vietnam I will ask “the Dick” to travel with me!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 8, 2018

Blumenthal is the senior Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 8, 2018 - 03:10pm PT
Does anyone think those kind of endless stream of consciousness outbursts are good for the country?
otisdog

Social climber
Sierra Madre, Ca.
Dec 8, 2018 - 03:44pm PT
Bone spur drafter dodger has truly lost it...as if he has any right to criticize any one about their military service. It's not irony, it's insanity...
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 8, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
I am kinda hoping Trump orders full military ground invasion in search for missing man on long's Peak in response to direct appeals from missing man's family
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 8, 2018 - 05:29pm PT
I just updated my GoFundMe campaign to include a visit to help Joe Biden not run!!! You can see the exciting details here:

https://www.gofundme.com/help-hillary-not-run-for-president

Thanks for your support!!!! We are 0.2% of the way there! Cosmic, you little devil you, I know you're lurking!!! How about another donation? Thanks in advance!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Dec 8, 2018 - 05:49pm PT

Have to repost.

Because of small hand placement.
couchmaster

climber
Dec 8, 2018 - 08:28pm PT


Winemaker said, quote:
"I just updated my GoFundMe campaign to include a visit to help Joe Biden not run!!! You can see the exciting details here:

https://www.gofundme.com/help-hillary-not-run-for-president

Thanks for your support!!!!"
"Help Hillary and Joe Biden not run for President"

Whoh now! I'm out. Much too hasty there. Any chance I can get my $1.09 back? Donated as "Cosmic's Parrot, the good lookin' one".
couchmaster

climber
Dec 8, 2018 - 08:29pm PT



Err, maybe it was "Cosmic's mother...?......Cosmic's dog?".....things get hazy when you're drinkin and all....

Might have dreamt that. Yeah, nevermind the $1.09 thing.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 9, 2018 - 07:39am PT
Moosefool....Cosmic just gave you the bird...Call Cmac and report...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2018 - 08:17am PT
Trump, who’s finishing up the second year of his presidency, plans to name his third chief of staff next week to replace John Kelly, who’s heading out the door. Kelly replaced Reince Priebus in July 2017 after Priebus served just six months.

Trump groused in this 2012 tweet that the upheaval in Obama’s White House was “part of the reason” Obama couldn’t “manage to pass his agenda.”

Sigh. A big sigh for America.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 9, 2018 - 08:23am PT
As if anyone remembers that. Or as if it matters one little bit to his base.

I just don't think the turmoil & turnover in his administration makes any real difference to the degree of support this president has.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2018 - 12:04pm PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Dec 9, 2018 - 03:19pm PT
*Jennifer Rubin: Trump Will Resign 10 Minutes Before End Of Term So Mike Pence Can Pardon Him


Conservative Washington Post columnist Jennifer Rubin predicted over the weekend that Donald Trump will resign 10 minutes earlier than planned, giving Vice President Mike Pence the opportunity to pardon him.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 9, 2018 - 05:41pm PT
That damned white nationalist party must be defeated and destroyed. Nothing but a bastion of kookery and resentment that enables crookedness of the first order.
zBrown

Ice climber
Dec 9, 2018 - 05:45pm PT
That's the facts




[Click to View YouTube Video]
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 9, 2018 - 05:52pm PT
The Con Job of the Century is breaking down. tRump is running out of things to twiddle with tweeter.
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