2018 Elections update.

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 1 - 751 of total 751 in this topic
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 6, 2018 - 07:11pm PT
Heidi & I have been watching national election news on NBC & PBS.

NBC claims to be very conservative on their projected winners, but so far it looks like the Republicans will retain the Senate, & Democrats may grab the majority in the U.S. House of Representatives.

As the NBC chances of Democrats gaining the majority in the House moved up to 80%, I muttered I wouldn't believe they could achieve that, until NBC said a 95% chance.

As of 8:00 PM tonight, NBC has the Democrat chances of grabing the majority in the House at 95%.

Sigh....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
NBC...? What do the Inukshuks predict...?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
yeah ized, not like the politcks,
&
it sucks that I can't just talk about being a good Yo-Yo all the time.

Why not post youre trashy climbing porn here as a protest against thinking?

Mnt young ?
grow up

Or lets play a game : Pick 6 numbers, place "[photoid=" in front of them & add a "]", I like to roll the dice 3 times - here I'll start with 299011, 311207, & 409402, many times you pull a "gak" that little guy holding the sign say no picture anymore.

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
I really enjoy the political threads here. Thanks for starting this Fritz.

Two earlier threads that were discussing politics were "locked" by the site administrators. Very, very disappointing.

I'm holding back on some climbing content that I was going to post and I'm seriously considering dropping out of the Supertopo community. It's their site and they can do what they want. And if they continue f---ing it up, I'll do what I want.

Leave it alone guys, please?
jstan

climber
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:38pm PT
And if they continue f---ing it up, I'll do what I want.

At last! An ultimatum.
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:41pm PT
i used to could detect irony real good ^^^

the house will now check the exec. that's alright, right? worth noting even.

regular order restored
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
I really enjoy the political threads here. Thanks for starting this Fritz.

Two earlier threads that were discussing politics were "locked" by the site administrators. Very, very disappointing.

I'm holding back on some climbing content that I was going to post and I'm seriously considering dropping out of the Supertopo community. It's their site and they can do what they want. And if they continue f---ing it up, I'll do what I want.

Leave it alone guys, please?

Please start the Climber's Propane Campfire (Forum)! Give everyone five days to edit/delete their post, and then it's history. No smoke in your eyes and restriction proof.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
Phuck. Now Apogee's bailed.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
Nah, I just tossed my last comments 'cuz they were just noise. I'm still around.
jstan

climber
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:54pm PT
We need a bail-o-meter thread.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
Anyway, not surprisingly, the much-ballyhooed 'blue wave' doesn't sound like it's amounted to much. Still, I'm quite happy to see that the Dems are on track to take back the House. That should stop some of the bleeding, anyway.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Nov 6, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
oh my - well this has been fun....
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
ST's forum appears to be open for wide discussion, per this Mirriam-Webster definition:


Definition of forum


1a : the marketplace or public place of an ancient Roman city forming the center of judicial and public business


b : a public meeting place for open discussion
//The club provides a forum for people interested in local history.


c : a medium (such as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas


2 : a judicial body or assembly : court


3a : a public meeting or lecture involving audience discussion
//The town has scheduled a public forum to discuss the proposal.


b : a program (as on radio or television) involving discussion of a problem usually by several authorities


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forum
monolith

climber
state of being
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:04pm PT
Fox, NBC and CNN projects the dems taking the house.

It's still a blue wave, just not a blue tsunami.
jstan

climber
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:13pm PT
I think there has been a moosewave.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
RJ! Re your question:

What do the Inukshuks predict...?


The Inukshuks don't get involved in politics or much else, but they are still celebrating Halloween.

ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:22pm PT
Anybody know what's up for Montana? Rosendale or Tester? Gianforte or Williams? The body slammer or intelligence? Farmer or Trumps puppet?

Arne
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:26pm PT
I really enjoy the political threads here.

I do too. Injuries prevent me from climbing anymore so my entertainment comes from these threads.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:27pm PT
How are we doing, Moose?

https://www.gofundme.com/bernadette-regan

For your future needs....
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:32pm PT
The Inukshuks don't get involved in politics or much else, but they are still celebrating Halloween.

Fie on your false inukshuks! May they be forever covered in lichen.

The One True Inukshuk, servant of the Mighty Odin, has spoken, and from me you shall be given his words: "Regardless of what puny mortal receives the most votes from other puny mortals, the TIME OF ODIN approaches."

Tremble at the thought of him, puny Americans.

10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 6, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
one good thing, no more wall.

cosmic is still as ignorant as he ever was.
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Nov 6, 2018 - 09:04pm PT
Thanks to all who voted! You made a difference!

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2018 - 09:23pm PT
It could have been worse ----- or better.

Democrats gaining control of the U.S. House of Representatives will likely help keep Trump from increasing his swamp for the next two years.

More importantly, it appears that Trump has inspired Democrats to retake key State governor's & other state political positions.

Woohoo!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2018 - 09:31pm PT
Well, Moose, the Dems didn't get the 2/3, but they have enough of a majority to help put the brakes on the stoooooopidity of the last two years. That's good enough for me.

And I'll match your $50 to Bernadette. It's the least we can do.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 6, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
Looks like the Red State Dems got ousted. Not surprising, and probably for the best. Splitting the baby is never a good idea.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Nov 6, 2018 - 09:49pm PT
Atheists for SATAN!!!
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 6, 2018 - 11:53pm PT
Nothin' but net!
Continues to underperform in the Golden State.

You're in BIG hands with Gavin.

i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 7, 2018 - 12:15am PT
tester is down by .7% with 75% in. Not sure how recounts, etc work in mt
dirtbag

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 03:32am PT
All I can say is “whew.”

We might get through this yet.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 05:27am PT
monolith

climber
state of being

Nov 6, 2018 - 07:39pm PT
The thread 'Midterms Tomorrow', got locked.
The thread 'Issues Affecting Americans', got locked.

WTF? 'Issues Affecting Americans' remained civil. A far cry from most political threads.

Ours is not to reason why...
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:02am PT
brad mehldau trio ~ seymour reads the constitution: http://youtu.be/WGE3v6QfDV0 [Click to View YouTube Video]
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:06am PT
Katie Hill in a nail-biter of a race, up about 50 votes out of >70k cast, with 30% reporting.

looks like Katie won with 100% reporting.
Hill: 51.7
Knight:48.3

looks like Rohrabacher lost with 100% reporting.
Rouda: 50.7
Rohrabacher: 49.3
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:12am PT
Colorado has their first, first man? Legal weed? When did Colorado become California?
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:17am PT
Well, that would be a total embarrassment for Calif-whornia, JC.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:36am PT
Colorado just needs a big ditch, some climbing, and it will be o.k. No use in envying the ocean, in the end, she'll draw you in and show you the worth of salted tears.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 7, 2018 - 07:48am PT
Year of the Great Rebuke

Youngest congresswoman elected (a Latina);
first African-American congresswoman from Mass;
first Muslim congresswomen;
first openly gay governor;
first Native American congresswoman;
first female Gov from Maine;
first congresswoman from Iowa;
first black congresswoman from CT;
first Latina congresswomen from Texas;
millions of folks got their right to vote back in Florida!
And oversight of this corrupt and racist administration
with the Dem win of the House of Representatives!

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:12am PT
In the past, I've generally supported CMac & co's apparent policy towards political threads...at least what seemed to be the policy, without much direct communication from them about what it actually is...

But on another hand, I just don't get it, either. There are endless OT threads here that have little or nothing directly to do with climbing, and they live on and on and on. Why do politics get singled out as the one topic that is off-limits? Even when the dialogue remains respectful and civil?

And it is more than clear that political discussions aren't going to end by locking a thread...they'll just pop up in another thread. If CMac & co really want to see this end, why don't they simply whack the most regular participants (yes, myself included)?
WBraun

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:22am PT
If you studied What is Mind then you would have answer.

Instead, you remain clueless ....
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:31am PT
Thanks, GLillegard...I did not see that thread from 2015.

I get the gist of the policy, and support what they are trying to accomplish, but it also seems like an unrealistic expectation. Politics matter to climbers, as do the wide variety of other OT threads that are all over ST. From the above statement:

"Hopefully freezing threads that devolve into personal attacks will help with an ongoing effort to keep the forum a friendly and informative resource for climbers of all ages and interests."

If it's simply about negative discourse, that makes perfect sense to me, however if a thread can remain civil and appropriate....no matter what the topic area is...why whack it?


I don't expect anything to change positing these thoughts. Just my impression.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:33am PT
If only they would clearly explain the rules

and fix the member to member communication link.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:38am PT
There was the catch all "Why Republicans Are Wrong About Everything" thread which was doing a good job of keeping politics quarantined right there. Getting rid of that was a mistake.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:44am PT
I don't think the member to member email is "not fixed". I think they fixed it by dismantling the feature. Wish they'd restore it though. Were members frightened somebody might email them? Oh my!

C'mon Tester! Still behind by a sliver.

Arne
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:55am PT
All of this said, there is an annoying tendency for multiple political threads to be present on the 'front page' of ST- that's definitely not in the primary interest of this site. Combine that tendency, along with some of the negative discourse that comes from some contributors, and that seems like plenty of rationale to single out politics.

Oh, that we as a community could truly self-regulate.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:59am PT
Oh, that we as a community could truly self-regulate.

Kinda along the lines of what high school Lotharios tell their sweethearts?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:03am PT
The other political threads are gone.

Let's move on.

Congrats to the Dems for regaining the House. Pelosi has said NO to impeachment. Good for her.

Now that the mid terms are over, Mueller should be making some announcements.

What's next???
dirtbag

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:08am PT
^^^Mr. Stone
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:12am PT
"Now that the mid terms are over, Mueller should be making some announcements."


Glad to hear Pelosi is backing off on the impeachment thing, though I hope investigations of both Trump & Kavanaugh continue, and if anything turns up, I'd have no problem with a change of mind.

I'm not overly optimistic that Mueller's report is going to contain any kind of smoking gun, and it's quite possible it won't be publicly released at all. Still, it's sure to contain some good stuff, and will at the very least provide more evidence of the fact that Trump is as much of a d#@&%e as any reasonably intelligent person knows that he is.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:15am PT
Donald Trump Jr. Expecting to Be Indicted by Mueller Soon
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:17am PT
Nunez loses his chairmanship of the intelligence committee (oxymoron much?) so he will not be able to provide cover for Trump. So sad, maybe we will see some people being held accountable.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:37am PT
I hope investigations of ... Kavanaugh continue

The Senate Judiciary Committee released its final report on the Brett Kavanaugh investigation, finding “no verifiable evidence” of sexual misconduct.

Investigators spoke to 45 different people and took 25 statements about allegations made by two of Kavanaugh’s accusers, Christine Blasey Ford and Deborah Ramirez.

The Committee tweeted Saturday no evidence was found to “substantiate or corroborate” either of their claims.

What else needs to be done?

Have any Dems on the Judiciary Committee refuted the report?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:40am PT
Yeah, I just matched your donation a few minutes ago, Moose. Happy to see that the ST polititard discussions are providing assistance to someone who really deserves it.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:40am PT
What else needs to be done?

a good start would be to subpoena the 100,000 pages of Kavanaugh documents the White House refused to release. What is there to worry about?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:43am PT
Edward, the 'investigation' that was done was so quick, limited by the WH in scope, and obviously aimed at convincing Flake, Murkowski & Collins to approve, that there should be no surprise that there were 'no findings'. These were serious accusations, that deserve due diligence. That didn't happen by a long stretch in the hearings.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2018 - 09:55am PT
I knew that in the Idaho governor's race, an articulate, tall, good looking, Native American woman Democrat, stood little chance against an old white guy rancher, career politician, conservative Republican.

Brad Little beat Paulette Jordan 59.5% to 38.5%, which is not as bad as predicted.



SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, Bozeman, the ocean, or ?
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:14am PT
Hi all. Not much to add. I voted everywhere I could. Well it was just one place.

Susan
chipper_shredder

Social climber
outinthecuts
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:26am PT
I said this years ago, and ima say it again directly to the moderators / Cmac
& I dont like to have to use caps but...,

DRAW AN F-ING LINE THROUGH THE MIDDLE OF THE FORUM

Climbing & TR content on top, ALL off topic content below, f-IING F. Man !
Folks having to piss on political posts " what does this have to do w climbing " ?
While all you are doing is bumping the thread to the top ?????

Lets face facts, TACO & Cmac benifit hugely for site traffic

Political threads don't bother me one bit, obviously since I've posted some.
there is more to life than climbing
Folk who for some reason need to hone in on political threads, then post political ostrich
Replys and noise boggles me, while cool cars, ark on the moon & endless RIP threads are just as not climbing related go unpissed on

Banner ads bother me more, if you ask me.

Rant off

We all should be out outraged about the obscene money
Spent on the election

-Repeal citizens united

-Pass term limits for all reps & senetors

Can we please get back to realizing 80% of those in power
Yes, on both sides are either corrupt or enept, or both.


Trump

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:29am PT
More importantly, it appears that Trump has inspired Democrats to retake key State governor's & other state political positions.

I definitely prefer that to Obama inspiring the Republicans to take back the Presidency and the Supreme Court by electing Trump.

What goes around comes around, unfortunately for us tribal partisans, and fortunately for us tribal partisans. If only our tribe could be a little more partisan, we might be able to inspire a grander backlash on their part next time, and then we’d have them right where we want them!

That, or extinct.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:32am PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Nov 7, 2018 - 09:43am PT
Edward, the 'investigation' that was done was so quick, limited by the WH in scope, and obviously aimed at convincing Flake, Murkowski & Collins to approve, that there should be no surprise that there were 'no findings'. These were serious accusations, that deserve due diligence. That didn't happen by a long stretch in the hearings.

The investigation concluded last week. Not sure how Flake, Murkowski & Collins play into it.
Happy Cowboy

Social climber
Boz MT
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:34am PT
Woohoo, big Jon Tester just announced victory 20 minutes ago in Montana!!!!!
He held his senate seat against huge odds, a true statesman and unique honest guy.
What news to learn on return from the first good skiing of season. Hyalite was beautiful.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:40am PT
Flake, Murkowski and Collins were under tremendous pressure (from both directions) in those Hearings- they needed to be able to point at something that would allow them to publicly justify their decision to approve Kavanaugh. McConnell knew this very well, so he allowed Flake's request for an 'investigation', knowing there would be very strict limitations on it's scope and timeframe.

This gave Flake & Collins enough political cover to approve Kavanaugh, even if the 'investigation' was effectively a shallow sham.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:43am PT
Sorry to learn of the loss of Paulette Jordan. She is still young and life is long.

As usual, Moscow, Boise and Sun Valley love her. Apparently a big following in Driggs as well.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/06/us/elections/results-idaho-elections.html

Idaho politics as boring and predictable as Califonia only on opposite poles.


EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:47am PT
Apogee - There was a more substantial investigation that concluded last week.

Investigators spoke to 45 different people and took 25 statements about allegations made by two of Kavanaugh’s accusers, Christine Blasey Ford and Deborah Ramirez.

The Committee tweeted Saturday no evidence was found to “substantiate or corroborate” either of their claims.

No one backed Ford's story.

It wasn't really given much coverage in the MSM. What a surprise.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:47am PT
Discussing Politics on this form where most of us are friends and longtime chatters is totally legit. Its a community.

I truely care about what the people here thing on many topics and I listen to both sides.

Also, this forum is a legitimate mind within itself. It has such authority that it is occasionally sited by major media outlets.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:47am PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:48am PT
Have we been saved? At least when the Titanic went down it was calm.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:50am PT
Ed T may be dense, but probably not *that* dense.


"not sure why crux folks voting on confirmation to the high court may be target audience of investigation into nominee's alleged pattern of sexual abuse".



cool.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:53am PT
oh yeah, hooray! the millionaire won CO Gov seat. Which millionaire?


does it matter, in the grand scheme of .....?




nope. no matters at all, sorta like that stupid azz setback measure.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:57am PT
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places

Nov 7, 2018 - 10:50am PT
Ed T may be dense, but probably not *that* dense.


"not sure why crux folks voting on confirmation to the high court may be target audience of investigation into nominee's alleged pattern of sexual abuse".

cool.

How random
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:09am PT
No wonder these threads get locked. SIMMER DOWN.


I guess it was just a smurfy wave, and the market is up!
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2018 - 11:13am PT
I'm glad to see Tester held his Montana Senate seat. I thought he had a good chance & I actually donated to his campaign, which is the only one I donated to.

Trump really hates Tester, so Tester being in the Senate again should piss Trump off. Good!
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:17am PT
If the market ever goes down and stays down we are all cooked, except for the few living in small cohesive groups growing and/or hunting their own food with no assistance from petroleum or metallurgy.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:30am PT
I try not to get too sucked into what's happening, despite it's significance. Just kind of stressful given the potential direction the country could head.

Looking at some of the very close races or those that are yet undecided, I've noticed at least a couple where an independent picked up enough of margin to have put the challenging democrat over the top (e.g., Arizona and Maine). After the debacle of Ralph Nader and the razor thin margins in many hot districts, how can people actually believe that a vote for an independent is anything but a vote for the republican candidate? I don't get it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:31am PT
No, I didn’t notice that in either of the sources I frequent these days...Politico and National Review (MSM? Hmmm....)

Mind sharing a link to that source, Edward?
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:34am PT
Democracy is about balance of power and I for one am happy that may have been achieved.


Peace
Happy Cowboy

Social climber
Boz MT
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:36am PT
Trump personally pinned the target on Jon Tester’s back after fighting his VA pick Ronny Jackson ( whose investigation goes on):
4 visits by Trump
Double that by Don jr.
3 visits by Pence, and more.

Tester finished by say “I learned long ago that Montana does not vote party, they vote people”
So glad it worked for him.

I’ve voted in SW Montana for 20 some elections, this was close.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:46am PT
I was glad to see Walker lost in WI, which is my home state.

Heard the other day that his big FoxConn project, where he gave $$$$$ incentives, and which was sold as bringing thousands of good jobs to local Wisconsin people seems to have changed horses midstream. Instead of manufacturing, now the focus will be engineering, and since Racine is not a place that has a populous engineer base, and is not going to have engineers lining up to relocate to, they will be bringing in Chinese (men) to fill the jobs. I sincerely DOUBT the Foxconn folks didn't know damned well what the strategy was the whole time. So, stupid Walker gave away the money to bring in a corporation that will ultimately provide only a smattering of low-wage jobs for the support of those engineers(cleaning and such).

Here in upstate NY, we have elected Delgado to Congress, and plenty of other Democrats for NY, which makes me happy, obviously.

I am thinking that it is GOOD that neoterh GOP nor Dem have gotten an a$$-whipping. The last thing we need is gloating and anger. Maybe now we regular people can start to heal from the Trump Malaise that has been sickening our country for the last two years, and again see each other as friends, neighbors and actual people instead of "them."
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2018 - 11:52am PT
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 7, 2018 - 12:06pm PT
Mind sharing a link to that source, Edward?

https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/2018-11-02%20Kavanaugh%20Report.pdf


Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Nov 7, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
I hear ya Happy Cowpoke!

I heard the 'bad' news about our potential senate choice on the news at home. Rode to work and promptly got on a 3.5 hour conf call. On my way to the fridge I ran into a co-worker that was all giddy and she whispered "Tester" in my ear in the hallway.

We still have our violent east coast rep and ya know, he is just some folks' kinda guy.
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:01pm PT
Looks like a climber will be going to the House. Katie Hill is expected to win the California 25th District. Go Katie and I hope to come visit you next year to talk about California and nationwide climber issues! Unfortunately, in my district I have to endure two more years of the chief Trump brownnoser Nunes. Janz and his campaign put up a great campaign to counter him, but it was not enough.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:06pm PT
Now that Nunes can no longer be Trump’s protector, maybe he can be our congressman
BY MAREK WARSZAWSKI
marekw@fresnobee.com
November 06, 2018 10:53 PM
https://www.fresnobee.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/marek-warszawski/article221171890.html

Congratulations to Devin Nunes on his re-election. Congratulations mixed with condolences. Because his days as a powerful and influential congressman are over.

Even though Nunes defeated challenger Andrew Janz to retain his District 22 seat, he was also among the biggest losers in Tuesday’s midterm elections.

The Republicans are no longer the majority party in the House of Representatives, meaning Nunes must brace himself for his reduced place in the new pecking order.

Our local congressman’s power on Capitol Hill, as described by Fresno State political science professor Thomas Holyoke, “will be greatly diminished.”
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:10pm PT
I would not hold my breath on the notion that he will now be my congressperson. He is a complete no show in the district, which is why that article was so on point.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:24pm PT
How the hell do congressman stay in office with a record like that? I know Clovis is verrrry conservative, but you'd think after enough local outcry about the fact Nunes seems to have little interest in his own district, that he'd pay some attention.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:29pm PT
Sessions ousted
Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker will take over supervising Mueller’s Russia probe.

By DARREN SAMUELSOHN and CAITLIN OPRYSKO 11/07/2018 02:50 PM EST Updated 11/07/2018 04:09 PM EST
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/07/jeff-sessions-out-as-attorney-general-972776

Attorney General Jeff Sessions resigned at President Donald Trump’s request on Wednesday, ending a tumultuous tenure marked by repeated public humiliations and raising new questions about the fate of special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation.

Word of the Justice Department leader’s ouster came via a Twitter post from Trump, who thanked the former Alabama senator for his service and announced that Sessions’ chief of staff, Matthew Whitaker, would take over in an acting capacity.

Trump added that a permanent replacement would be nominated “at a later date.”

While the change atop DOJ doesn’t affect Rod Rosenstein, the embattled deputy attorney general who has been supervising Mueller’s probe into the Trump 2016 campaign and Russian hackers, it does mean Rosenstein will no longer oversee the special counsel's work.

Rosenstein was only overseeing the probe because Sessions had recused himself from any involvement with the special counsel, and a DOJ spokesperson indicated Wednesday that Whitaker would take over "all matters under the purview of the Department of Justice," including the Mueller probe.



How'd you like to learn that you are going be fired by a tweet from your boss?

No doubt Whitaker was carefully interviewed to be sure that he wouldn't do anything ethical like recuse himself from the Mueller investigation, the way Sessions did. Gotta give the guy that much credit, anyway.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 7, 2018 - 01:45pm PT
“How does a congressman with a record like that stay in office?”

I can believe it,here in the 27th district of NY ,our congressman is indicted with 11 felonies and won re -election by just 1%.


Man.......


Good to see Montucky go blue.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 7, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
Trump really hates Tester, so Tester being in the Senate again should piss Trump off. Good!

Three trips to Montana, and he still couldn't beat Tester.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:05pm PT
Sorry to learn of the loss of Paulette Jordan. She is still young and life is long.

As usual, Moscow, Boise and Sun Valley love her. Apparently a big following in Driggs as well.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/06/us/elections/results-idaho-elections.html

Idaho politics as boring and predictable as Califonia only on opposite poles.

Idaho has a substantial population of mormons(or it did), and a substantial population of ex LAPD cops, in the panhandle.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:43pm PT
anyone else here care to add to the chalkboard list of the governed by millionaires club list?

1. colorado
Bargainhunter

climber
Nov 7, 2018 - 09:59pm PT
Idaho has a substantial population of mormons(or it did), and a substantial population of ex LAPD cops, in the panhandle.

Funny, I once hitchhiked from Berkeley, CA to Jackson Hole, Wy. One of my rides was from a Highway Patrolman in Idaho in his service vehicle. He was a former cop from CA, and told me it was illegal to hitch-hike where I was standing, so he gave me a ride to next town. Before I got in the front passenger seat, he asked if I had any weapons. I told him that I had a Swiss army knife on me. He shrugged and said get in. Cool, friendly guy.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Nov 7, 2018 - 10:21pm PT
^^ [Click to View YouTube Video]
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 8, 2018 - 06:43am PT
Washington (AP) -- Eighty-five-year-old Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg fractured three ribs in a fall in her office at the Supreme Court and is in the hospital, the court said Thursday.

The court's oldest justice fell Wednesday evening, the court said. She went to George Washington University Hospital in Washington early Thursday after experiencing discomfort overnight.

She was admitted to the hospital for treatment and observation after tests showed she fractured three ribs.

In her absence, the court was going ahead Thursday with a courtroom ceremony welcoming new Justice Brett Kavanaugh, who joined the court last month.

Hang in there, Justice Ginsberg.
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
Nov 8, 2018 - 06:56am PT
Gonna love the grimace on Pence's face when he swears in two of these women while holding the Qur'an....

10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 8, 2018 - 07:41am PT
Gonna love the grimace on Pence's face when he swears in two of these women while holding the Qur'an....

not to mention that a few of the women are gay, or bisexual.
oh the humanity.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2018 - 08:05am PT
Hang in there, Ginsburg, indeed. This is a hard-as-nails woman who is going to stay in there until she simply can't function any longer. Then Trump's new Senate will steamroll another Justice on America to directly impact us all of the rest of our lives.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:08am PT
Gonna love the grimace on Pence's face when he swears in two of these women while holding the Qur'an....
Pence will bring his wife, threesomes only for Mikey. Then they will prey.
Jkruse

climber
Las Cruces, NM
Nov 8, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
It was a good result here in New Mexico, turned the whole state blue. Flipped governor and a congressional seat in a GOP stronghold district. The gubernatorial race was a pretty sure bet, but CD2 was definitely not. We are talking all of southern NM, which as you can imagine is mostly conservative god fearing rancher types who are not what you would call progressive by any stretch of imagination. Well, lo and behold 33 year old water rights attorney Xochitl Torres Small got the job done. It came way down to the wire, with the election being decided by a final count of absentee and provisional ballots from our district's one "blue" precinct. I could hardly believe it when I saw the result. Kind of added to my enjoyment that her opponent had already delivered a victory speech, praising god and everything. That's my bit of good news for the week.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 8, 2018 - 03:33pm PT
Jkruse, being in Albuquerque I was paying close attention too, good news!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 8, 2018 - 03:53pm PT
So,the POTUS has hired a sympathetic AG,has threatened the opposing party as to trying to investigate him and has not answered what kind of nationalist he is.

Even revoked press credentials.

All good aye.

Even controls the military.

Great,Again.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 8, 2018 - 04:57pm PT
^^^he is a crackpot.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/matthew-whitaker-is-a-crackpot/2018/11/08/69e8e190-e395-11e8-8f5f-a55347f48762_story.html?utm_term=.4ba50e1dc1df
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:11pm PT
Saturday Night Massacre (Extended Play)
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
he is a crackpot.


that cannot be true!

Donald said he would first Drain the Swamp and then appoint only the Best and Brightest ....
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
Yawn.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:30pm PT
Yes ,it is a bit much.

Can you say lame duck or coup?
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:31pm PT
I went climbing all day and the Senate race in Arizona is going in favor of the Democrat? I should go climbing all day more often!!

Am I seeing the news correctly?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
Coincidence?

Correlation?

Better go climbing TOMORROW, just to be safe.

Edited for clarity.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:44pm PT

Coincidence?

Correlation?

Better go climbing, just to be safe.

Too dark right now and I'm hungry ;)
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 8, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
Can you say lame duck or coup?

Yawn.

Stretch.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 8, 2018 - 06:26pm PT
I have not stretched anything really.

It is going to be fun watching him go down in flames.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 8, 2018 - 08:03pm PT
Trump? Lame duck?

Is that before or after he seats a couple of new SCOTUS justices?

When is his querencia phase gonna start? 😂😂😂
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
For the sake of McCain’s memory, I hope to hell that Sinema prevails.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 8, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
Am I seeing the news correctly?

last I saw, Cristin Sinema(the dem) was ahead.

so let me get this straight, trump campaigned in Montana, and Nevada, and his candidates still lost.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:03pm PT
There are still a lot of ballots to be counted in Arizona, and many of them are in Maricopa County, where Phoenix lies...this is Sinema’s district. Still, the vote has swayed back and forth between Sinema and McSally.

Anyone wanna bet on which candidate McCain would back?
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:12pm PT
Anyone wanna bet on which candidate McCain would back?

Good question. I was watching the election coverage on ABC tuesday night . Megan McCain was on there, and she said she is not a Sinema fan.
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:13pm PT
Brad,

Go climbing every day, all day and politics should all be good.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 8, 2018 - 09:21pm PT

Brad,

Go climbing every day, all day and politics should all be good.

I'd be happy to. But there's that one little catch about being able to eat and pay bills.

On the other hand, perhaps you'd be willing to support me and the family so I can go climbing more? In the style to which we'd like to become accustomed, of course ;)
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2018 - 09:40pm PT
10b4me! Re your question:

so let me get this straight, trump campaigned in Montana, and Nevada, and his candidates still lost.


Yes!

From CNN:

Tester was widely seen early in the cycle as a vulnerable Democrat due to the fact Trump won the state by 20 points just two years ago. But Tester's unique brand as a farmer from Big Sandy and his personal connection to the state provided a contrast to Republican Matt Rosendale, whose ties to the state were constantly in question. President Trump flew to Montana four times to campaign against Tester.

From information up-thread & Montana friends, VP Pence also flew to Montana 3 times, & Donald Jr. 5 times,to campaign for the "carpet-bagger" real estate promoter from Maryland that Trump supported.

I know Trump went to Nevada at least twice to tout his candidate for Senate, but I don't have details.

Trump's wasted campaign trips at American Taxpayer expense, appears to be news the MSM is currently not sharing with us.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 8, 2018 - 10:30pm PT
McSally is a big-time Trump supporter. All due respect to Megan, but that should pretty much make clear which way McCain would go.
Happy Cowboy

Social climber
Boz MT
Nov 9, 2018 - 04:24am PT
The headline today in Montana “ Tester wins by poaching Trump voters, holding his base”
The article states that Tester won 14% of votes from people who voted for Trump in 2016.
Of that 20% of women turned their vote to Tester, and 8% of republican men.

When Tester was asked his opinion about contending with Trump’s 4 visits this campaign his response was “I look forward to the President’s next visit to Montana in hopes that it concerns the real issues affecting Montanans”. Every State could benefit with him in the Senate.
Jon Tester, the only working farmer in the Senate and possibly DC.

Also of Montana interest, 9 Native Americans were elected to State house.
Climberdude

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Nov 9, 2018 - 05:11am PT
I am glad that the people of California rejected Props. 3 and 6. Prop. 6 was an obvious Republican Party (third party status in California) publicity attempt, but 3 was a sneaky similar attempt to benefit big agriculture (a heavy funder of Republicans) at the expense of taxpayers.

When water issues make sense with regard to conservation, environment, agriculture, and the population, I am in favor of expending state funds or issuing bonds. Past history of water bond issues has shown the California population also goes this way. However, when water bonds are blank checks to big ag with a cynical ploy, I am glad that the people saw through the ruse. Yes, there are populations in my area who do not have drinkable water due to agriculture, but the solution to their problem is not to dump a bunch of bond money to big ag in hopes that the water would "tickle down" from ag to those without water. I am glad that it appears that the California population understands that more dams is not always the answer.

Before you ag supporters flame on, I come from a family that were Central Valley farmers. I worked on my family's farm. I saw how farmers thought that water from the great river next to the farm that we pumped the hell out of was an unlimited source.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 9, 2018 - 07:35am PT
McSally is a big-time Trump supporter.
McSally used to be more of a moderate.
All due respect to Megan, but that should pretty much make clear which way McCain would go

I'm not so sure
John M

climber
Nov 9, 2018 - 07:47am PT
McSally ran one of the ugliest smear and fear based campaigns that I have seen. There was big big money behind her because the ads ran about 4 to 1. 4 McSally ads for every one of Sinema's. It was so bad that some major republicans even came out and said that what the McSally ads were saying were not true.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 9, 2018 - 09:03am PT
Yeah, maybe you’re right, 10b. Hard to say for sure which way McCain might prefer. No doubt he’d be disgusted by the options, esp. the one in his own Party.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 9, 2018 - 09:28am PT
Trump continues to drain that swamp!

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-whitaker-ftc-20181109-story.html#nt=oft-Recommender%20Chain~Generic%20card~timed-report-duplicate~whitaker-651a~~1~yes-art~curated~curatedpage

When federal investigators were digging into an invention-promotion company accused of fraud by customers, they sought information in 2017 from a prominent member of the company's advisory board: Matthew Whitaker, a former U.S. attorney in Iowa.

...In the end, the FTC filed a complaint against Miami-based World Patent Marketing, accusing it of misleading investors and falsely promising that it would help them patent and profit from their inventions, according to court filings.

In May, a federal court in Florida ordered the company to pay a settlement of more than $25 million and close up shop, records show. The company did not admit nor deny wrongdoing.

..."It's really upsetting to know that guy will be attorney general," said Ryan Masti, 26, who lost $77,000 after paying World Patent Marketing to help him bring to market his idea for a social media app to help the disabled. "It's so offensive. It's like a stab in the back."
...

According to the FTC, however, the company falsely promised clients it would patent and market their ideas in exchange for hefty fees — and then pocketed the money.

"For the last three years, Defendants have operated an invention-promotion scam that has bilked thousands of consumers out of millions of dollars," the agency alleged in a recently unsealed court filing. "In truth and in fact, Defendants fail to fulfill almost every promise they make to consumers."
...

The Miami New Times, which published an in-depth investigation of the company last year, reported that Cooper would sometimes tell people who had posted negative reviews of the company that he had security with specialized training in the Israeli martial art Krav Maga.

In an August 2015 email included in court documents, Whitaker wrote to a complainant who threatened to go to the Better Business Bureau, "I am assuming you understand that there could be serious civil and criminal consequences for you." He noted he was a former U.S. attorney.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 9, 2018 - 11:25am PT
Boy, is the Senate race in Arizona close. Sounds like the remaining ballots to be counted are in areas that generally favor Democrats/Sinema, but the margin is sooooo close that it could easily swing either direction. This will go through the weekend (at least), and a recount & legal action seems guaranteed.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2018 - 03:09pm PT
I don't understand how or why The Wall Street Journal keeps biting the right-wing hands that own it, but I sure enjoy it when it does.

President Trump was heavily involved during his presidential campaign in silencing the stories of women who claimed to have extramarital affairs with him, according to a report from The Wall Street Journal that contradicts repeated denials from Trump.

Federal prosecutors have gathered evidence that Trump worked with his friend and media executive David Pecker to use the National Enquirer tabloid to buy the silence of adult-film star Stormy Daniels and former Playboy model Karen McDougal, according to interviews the Journal had with three dozen people with knowledge of the transactions.

Trump was allegedly involved in nearly every step of the process to prevent Daniels and McDougal from publicizing their stories and worked with his longtime lawyer and fixer Michael Cohen to coordinate the deals.

More here:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-played-key-role-in-coordinating-hush-money-payments-to-daniels-mcdougal-report/ar-BBPwNO1?li=BBnb7Kz
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 9, 2018 - 03:24pm PT
the good news is that Colorado elected a millionaire.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 9, 2018 - 03:56pm PT
Just a millionaire, huh? These days, that's positively low-income...
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 10, 2018 - 09:04am PT
^^^^

YES!!!

Excellent consolation prize for being stuck with a useless Trump lapdog in our district just to the east (Sierra foothills).

The useless lapdog up here DOESN'T EVEN LIVE IN OUR DISTRICT (McClintock is a piece of crap).
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 10, 2018 - 09:39am PT
The Lapdog party has replaced the tea baggers...Another act of desperation for the party that forgot how to govern...
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 10, 2018 - 09:49am PT
Speaking of anonymous newcomers...

dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2018 - 10:06am PT
Dickhead:

There is no reason for these massive, deadly and costly forest fires in California except that forest management is so poor. Billions of dollars are given each year, with so many lives lost, all because of gross mismanagement of the forests. Remedy now, or no more Fed payments!


-President Dickhead
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 10, 2018 - 10:26am PT
Dickhead forgot to blame the homeless messicans for starting these fires...He's slipping up...Cue up the Sarah Sanders air raid siren...
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 10, 2018 - 10:30am PT
Glad to see the Central Valley getting some fresh leadership, hell, getting some leadership, finally.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 10, 2018 - 01:10pm PT
Is that a recent DOTUS tweet in response to the recent California fires?

Dickhead, indeed.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 10, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
^^^Yep, from this morning.^^^
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 10, 2018 - 01:31pm PT
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Nov 10, 2018 - 02:24pm PT
^^^

Well, the US isn't a democracy. Perhaps you should re-read the constitution.

The US is a Republic. There is a difference. Popular vote has nothing to do with election of Senate seats, by design. The House is more representational by population.

"the good news is that Colorado elected a millionaire."

The choices in Colorado sucked - a relative of George Bush, in Walker Stapleton, and Polis - a tech millionaire. I sat at a table with Polis's staff during a debate and it is interesting how slick the dude is, how he word-smiths his positions to an audience.



perswig

climber
Nov 10, 2018 - 02:24pm PT
For better or worse, it looks like the way a republic works.
And the results from the last redistricting.

Those two things and the insidious creep of socioeconomic division mirroring geography are currently working more in the repubs favor, and the dems need to get a grip on it soon. Even the specter of 'non-res' labeling on the upcoming census may affect folks' willingness to input data and would likely push the gerrymandering further down that road.

Dale
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 10, 2018 - 03:00pm PT
“There is a difference “

Oh ,and ,

“by design “.

I do not have to re read anything,really.

We all know why it is, as perswig has pointed out.
JOEY.F

Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
Nov 10, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
Yup, DMT, been watching that one.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Nov 10, 2018 - 04:12pm PT
Neither party is "the solution" to "the problem".

The Democrats ignore rural America. The Repubs pander to it, so the Repubs get the vote of rural America. So the Senate swings Repub...

Think I'm wrong about ignoring 85% (by area) of the country? Talk to a farmer, a rancher, a coal miner, a welder.

wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 10, 2018 - 04:49pm PT
Or a Carpenter.

The system is stacked for yours,with the Senate and the Electoral College,but ,by all means,defend that.

A Republic.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 10, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
The system is stacked for yours,with the Senate and the Electoral College,but ,by all means,defend that.

A Republic.

Yep. We will. The Constitution as it's written, that is--subject to amendment processes outlined therein. Direct democracy is a nightmare. Funny they understood this 240 years ago--but you're still trying to grasp the concept.

Stop being such a crybaby.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 10, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
Got to agree with Litty on this one. People tend to vote their self interest. the Constitution helps keep politicians somewhat on the right track.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 10, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
Stop being such a Russian troll.
Aeriq

Social climber
Location: It's a MisterE
Nov 10, 2018 - 06:03pm PT
Good to have some working for the republic

[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 10, 2018 - 06:03pm PT
Oligarchy is a much better way to go than a democracy ...Make Trump's kids more wealthy so they wont have to cheat the IRS like their bitchy old man...
Trump

climber
Nov 10, 2018 - 06:48pm PT
I don't understand how or why The Wall Street Journal keeps biting the right-wing hands that own it, but I sure enjoy it when it does.

No shame in not understanding. Recognizing ourselves not understanding is an opportunity to identity our misunderstandings, and correct them, if that’s what we honestly want to do. And if it’s not, maybe we could recognize that about ourselves.

Sounds like this isn’t the first time that you’ve noticed a conservative publication not mindlessly toeing the right-wing line in service to their right-wing financiers? What do you think our misunderstanding is that continues to prevent us from understanding this even after seeing it before? Why is this still surprising us?

Maybe they’re just honest journalists with integrity trying to report the truth? Heck, I even believe that’s kind of true about the left-wing press with its left-wing financiers!

Just because Trump likes to engage in anti-press and anti-others rhetoric doesn’t mean that we have to believe it too.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 10, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
This midterm election ain’t over yet....

Sinema is pulling ahead in Arizona....

In Florida, Nelson and Scott are damn close and every vote is under a microscope...

And Gillum has rescinded his concession....

Oh, the drama!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 10, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
Where are those extra democrat votes coming from...? Are the caravan people voting already...Fraud...
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 10, 2018 - 07:32pm PT
Dave:
Well, the US isn't a democracy. … The US is a Republic.

Can somebody explain the origin of the statement that "Republic is not a democracy"?
It looks like this flawed concept is taught in US schools. Right?

It's obvious that democracy is broader term than republic.
Republic is always a democracy.

Google can help to find a lot of sites discussing this issue. e.g. http://www.yourdictionary.com/democracy:
"The definition of a democracy is a form of government in which the people rule, either directly or through elected representatives. An example of democracy is the type of government in the United States."
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 10, 2018 - 07:41pm PT
Democrats Aren't Losing Faith in Our Constitutional System. They Just Don't Like It

It's because they see the system as a way to achieve partisan goals, not as a set of politically neutral idealistic values.

It's not a civics problem, either. One hopes that such liberal activists as NBC News' Ken Dilanian, who wonders "how much longer the American majority will tolerate being pushed around by a rural minority," understand sixth-grade civics. New York Times columnist Paul Krugman surely knows that the Constitution doesn't give "disproportionate weight" to smaller states. It intentionally gives all states the same weight in the Senate. Krugman only finds this idea "disproportionate" because it protects millions of Americans from the centralized coercive state that he envisions for them. The disproportionality he sees merely reflects his own concerns. It has nothing to do with the system.

https://www.creators.com/read/david-harsanyi/11/18/democrats-arent-losing-faith-in-our-constitutional-system-they-just-dont-like-it
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 10, 2018 - 08:07pm PT
T Hocking, thank you for clarifying American logic for me.

Does it mean that this confusion started a couple of centuries ago by commentators on the American Constitution?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 10, 2018 - 10:52pm PT
It's pretty simple guys, it's one person one vote. Every vote is equal but some votes are more equal than others. Like if you live in Wyoming as opposed to California.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 11, 2018 - 04:08am PT
Good to see the Right here defend the Constitution.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 11, 2018 - 05:10am PT
Not defend.

Explain.

We should all do our part to reduce ignorance.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 11, 2018 - 05:52am PT
“Not defend”.

Way to stay true to form,discredit the messenger,not the message.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 11, 2018 - 06:59am PT
Democrats Aren't Losing Faith in Our Constitutional System. They Just Don't Like It
Add to Ed's repertoire, the cheap blanket statement that floats on a sliver of substance followed by the declaration of widespread malfeasance by way of the sliver example (mimicked technique by Fox News).

I only see one lawmaker currently assaulting our Constitution! Your congressional Republicans are doing the blocking and tackling without fear of backlash from their constituency. So really, it's you who threaten our Constitution- there's a blanket statement supported by data and fact.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 11, 2018 - 07:05am PT
what else would you expect from an ignorant racist?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 11, 2018 - 07:23am PT
Make an unpopular (but accurate) statement....

and the mean girls show up.

Too funny!

Thanks for the laugh.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 11, 2018 - 07:35am PT
Some nice Sunday morning reading....



How the GOP Gave Up on Porn
Once, the fight against pornography was the beating heart of the American culture war. Now porn is a ballooning industry—and maybe a harmful one—with no real opponents. What happened?

By TIM ALBERTA November/December 2018
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/11/11/republican-party-anti-pornography-politics-222096

The Year Was 1976. Republicans were reeling from Watergate. Christian conservatives were defecting to the Democratic Party. And Jerry Falwell, the Virginia preacher with a booming Baptist congregation and a popular radio show, decided he could no longer sit on the sidelines as he saw American culture succumbing to the creeping forces of secularism. The precipitating event was an interview given by Jimmy Carter, in which the Democratic presidential nominee admitted to having “looked on a lot of women with lust,” and “committed adultery in my heart many times.” Carter had never acted on such temptation, he implied, but the admission kept him humble: “Christ says, don’t consider yourself better than someone else because one guy screws a whole bunch of women while the other guy is loyal to his wife.”

The doctrine itself was not objectionable. But the language—and more crucially, the venue—was intolerable for Falwell. The interview had run in Playboy magazine, alongside nude photographs of Miss November and articles such as “The Vatican Sex Manual” and “Prurient Puritans.” In his televised Sunday sermons, Falwell began railing against Carter’s courtship of the randy men’s magazine and its 5 million readers. When Carter’s team tried to block one of his antagonistic sermons from being broadcast shortly before Election Day, claiming it violated the Federal Communications Commission’s Fairness Doctrine, Falwell raised the stakes. He assembled a group of leading fundamentalist ministers at the National Press Club in Washington and accused Carter of “muzzling a preacher of the gospel from preaching his moral convictions.” The press conference, which cemented Falwell’s status as an ascendant political heavyweight, would be looked back on as the inception of the Moral Majority.


It was the height of the porn wars. More than abortion or homosexuality, the rising tide of pornography in America was, in the 1970s, becoming central to conservative Americans’ perception of a civilization in decline. For faith leaders, it was an easily exploitable issue; for Falwell, it was a crusade. He fought to remove adult content from convenience stores. He went to court to battle Hustler and Penthouse. And he never forgave Carter—who ended up winning the White House in 1976, carrying the evangelical vote along the way—for his original sin of talking to Hugh Hefner’s publication. “Giving an interview to Playboy magazine was lending the credence and the dignity of the highest office in the land to a salacious, vulgar magazine that did not even deserve the time of his day,” Falwell said in 1981.

Forty years after that D.C. press conference, a very different scene unfolded. This one took place in New York and starred Jerry Falwell Jr., inheritor of the family business. Hours earlier, the younger Falwell had introduced the GOP presidential candidate Donald Trump to a massive gathering of Christian leaders, calling him “God’s man,” anointed to lead the nation in turbulent times. The summit was successful beyond anyone’s expectation. As they celebrated back at Trump Tower, Falwell sought to document the occasion with a photo. The future president stood in the middle, flanked by Falwell Jr. and his wife, Becki. Thumbs went up. The camera snapped. Falwell tweeted the photo to his 60,000 followers. There was just one hiccup: Lurking over Becki Falwell’s left shoulder, framed in gold, was a cover of Playboy, graced by a bow-tied Trump and a smiling brunette covered only by his tuxedo jacket.

The photo sparked a frenzy. Nothing, it seemed, could so neatly encapsulate the religious right’s backsliding as Falwell Jr. giving a thumbs-up in front of the very magazine his father had singled out as symbolic of America’s moral decay—while standing shoulder to shoulder with a man who had appeared in a softcore porno flick and who reportedly, as Jimmy Carter might have put it, screwed a bunch of women outside of marriage, including a Playboy model and hardcore adult-film actress.

And it highlighted something else just as striking: the total abandonment of pornography as a battleground in America’s culture war.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Nov 11, 2018 - 07:39am PT
"White people are murderers and rapists" is an accurate statement but does not reflect the totality or general nature of white people.

We understand how simplistic rational works on the willing.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 11, 2018 - 08:31am PT
apogee,
Re: porn
the largest number of people watching porn live in Utah.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 11, 2018 - 08:33am PT
Two recounts in Florida. Both triggered automatically. Trump and both R's are crying foul and saying the elections are being stolen by unethical liberals.
You know how that one person that's always worried about someone else lying to him or stealing from. It's cause that's what he would do in that situation.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 11, 2018 - 09:18am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 11, 2018 - 09:42am PT
10b....i don't live in Utah...
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Nov 11, 2018 - 12:04pm PT
Never really thought about it before, but now that you mention it, I guess it could be true to some extent that the "anti-porn" agenda has kind of switched political parties. Funny how those things go.


Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 11, 2018 - 01:23pm PT


dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
Trump is white (actually Oompa Loompa orange) while the kneeling players are mostly African American. Trump is excused.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2018 - 02:54pm PT
Apogee: Per your post about Jerry Falwell Jr. & his wife posing with Trump, with Trump's Playboy cover framed in the background.

I remember reading about it, but a search for a photo easily found one.


Any moral outrage Trump has done or can do, is just fine with Evangelical leadership.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 11, 2018 - 03:26pm PT
Evangelicals, long known for expressing their moral outrage, are now best described as suffering from terminal moral outage.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 11, 2018 - 05:29pm PT
TMO..Terminal Moral Outrage....That's really bad Andy...Goober from Andy Griffith...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 12, 2018 - 06:25am PT
Not defend.

Explain.

EdwardT, that's a noble cause. Perhaps while you are at it, you could explain the 2nd amendment to the right wing. They seem to miss that whole 'well regulated militia' thing.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 12, 2018 - 07:28am PT
Things are looking good for Sinema in Arizona...her lead over McSally just keeps growing as the votes are counted...not many ballots left in Arizona....

Dems need as much sway as they can get in the Senate.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:31am PT

//
Things are looking good for Sinema in Arizona...her lead over McSally just keeps growing as the votes are counted.//

Seems it is now called for her. There's a lot of blather about doing right by our vets once a year but the day after they get kicked to the curb.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:38am PT
👍👍👍👍🤞🏼
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:42am PT
Yeah...politicians constantly laud vets and at the same time they move heaven and earth to ensure that their children never become vets.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:31am PT
EdwardT, that's a noble cause. Perhaps while you are at it, you could explain the 2nd amendment to the right wing. They seem to miss that whole 'well regulated militia' thing.

Ummmm, Gary, this was decided in 2007 Heller and 2010 McDonald. But maybe you know more about these matters than the Supreme Court? In any event, the right is certainly better constitutionally defined than, say, the right to an abortion.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:46am PT
Lituya?!

re: Militias? 2nd amendment rights.

Maybe it is a question of equal access. My cousin, a police officer, once said that he thought the police and criminals should have the same "weapons". Certainly better than the militarization of our police forces that was seen after excess spending in the Homeland Security budget. Still better?

Disclaimer. This is probably way off base, but I had to take the opportunity to respond to you. I will gladly, and at my best, most humbly take correction from you.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

edit:guns have not always won the day
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 12, 2018 - 11:29am PT
Ummmm, Gary, this was decided in 2007 Heller and 2010 McDonald. But maybe you know more about these matters than the Supreme Court?

In this particular instance, I do indeed.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
Maybe it is a question of equal access. My cousin, a police officer, once said that he thought the police and criminals should have the same "weapons". Certainly better than the militarization of our police forces that was seen after excess spending in the Homeland Security budget.

That's pretty darn close. And I agree re the ill-conceived militarization of the police. Remember when they carried .38 revolvers and had a 12 gauge shotgun in the patrol car? Sure, I'd go back to those days. How do we get there?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
Lituya! Per your thoughts:

And I agree re the ill-conceived militarization of the police. Remember when they carried .38 revolvers and had a 12 gauge shotgun in the patrol car? Sure, I'd go back to those days. How do we get there?


It's interesting to read that you share the far-right dream of being better armed than the police.

My memories, have the cops all adopting automatic pistols & putting assault rifles in their cars, started with this game-changing incident.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-north-hollywood-shootout-revisited-20170223-htmlstory.html

Feb 28, 1997

It began as just another gorgeous L.A. day. Then, shortly after 9 a.m., a spectral scene of combat popped onto TV screens across the city.

Two armor-clad figures standing calmly outside a bank were spewing machine gun fire at a swarm of police officers shooting back with pistols from behind car doors and trees.

Within minutes, the parking lot outside the Bank of America on Laurel Canyon Boulevard in North Hollywood was on television screens across the country, as disbelieving viewers watched the battle unfold on live feeds from network helicopters circling overhead.

For 44 minutes, out-gunned officers engaged the bank robbers, dodging barrages of high-powered bullets, rescuing their wounded and peppering their targets with hundreds of shots that bounced off harmlessly.

Gradually their shots probed openings in their adversaries’ armor as a SWAT team arrived from afar to equalize the firepower. The North Hollywood shootout ended with the two perpetrators — Larry Eugene Phillips Jr., 26, and Emil Dechebal Matasareanu, 30 — dead in the street. Eleven officers were wounded, but none killed.
WBraun

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 01:36pm PT
Some cars have shotgun with armor piercing rounds.

Fully automatic assault rifle.

And non-lethal bean bag round shotgun

Plus standard issue sidearm and taser.

Ready for bad guys like Fritz ...... :-)
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 01:43pm PT
It's interesting to read that you share the far-right dream of being better armed than the police

I won't speak for him. I'd love to hear his experience. Still, I think he was saying the opposite.

Being first to step forward, while standing down, or maybe just standing ready?

Anyway, my cousin worked on an island with a history of colonialism and the consequent unequal division of technology and resources integral to it. His statement about having the same weapons was maybe somehow related. He and my uncle could be like that.

edit:
How do we get there?

At least, it seems that some have been sung across the divide. And apparently vote?! (from the happiegirl below)
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 01:47pm PT
Just saw that Kyrsten Sinema has won Senate race in Arizona - First Democrat AZ Senator in a quarter century!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 12, 2018 - 01:56pm PT
Remember when they carried .38 revolvers and had a 12 gauge shotgun in the patrol car? Sure, I'd go back to those days. How do we get there?

You should ask Wayne LaPierre about that.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 03:15pm PT
It's interesting to read that you share the far-right dream of being better armed than the police.

Not sure why you’d think that. As usual, Fritz, it’s all about what you think you know.

As Jim noted above, I was, in fact, saying just the opposite. Yes, citizens should be equally armed re the police. When did the arms race start—and who started it? Who cares.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 12, 2018 - 04:37pm PT
Hillary 2020??!!

Former Clinton adviser says Hillary will run in 2020
By CAITLIN OPRYSKO 11/12/2018 08:40 AM EST

Two-time Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton will mount a third bid for the White House, longtime Clinton adviser Mark Penn wrote in an op-ed published Sunday by The Wall Street Journal, predicting that the former first lady and secretary of state is readying a "Hillary 4.0" campaign for 2020.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/12/clinton-aide-2020-run-983684
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 12, 2018 - 04:39pm PT
Looks like Trump gets re elected.

HS
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 12, 2018 - 05:22pm PT
When did the arms race start—and who started it?

Perhaps Wayne LaPierre can tell you who expedited it.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
Are you sure? Cuz this is bullsh#t.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 12, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
So who amongst the various Democratic senators, governors, or possibly congresspersons would do?

Cory Booker is presentable, plenty of charisma
Beto O'rourke has earned street cred, but probably to early for him
Kamala Harris, Well prepared for battle and a great litigator
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2018 - 06:42pm PT
I sigh for those who advocate that police & civilians should be equally armed.

I sigh for those who are shocked the police now have armored cars & machine guns.

However, those who advocate, or wish for an armed & ready to revolt right-wing militia, want to face civil authorities on an equal or better footing.

And of course, let's guess what political party advocates that everyone have armor-piercing bullets!

US agency drops efforts to ban armor-piercing bullets
11 March 2015
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-31827249

Bullets that are able to pierce police officers' protective vests will remain legal in the US after a proposed ban met with a fierce opposition from gun rights activists.

The Obama administration sought to ban certain types of ammunition used in the popular AR-15-style rifles.

Many armor-piercing bullets used in handguns are illegal under the Law Enforcement Officers Protection Act.

But rifle bullets have long been exempt.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) argued that high-powered, pistol-like rifles didn't exist when the law was enacted in 1986 and therefore some rifle bullets also should banned as well.

The rule change would have affected only "M855 green tip" or "SS109" rounds with certain types of metal core projectiles.

More than 50 US senators wrote to the ATF protesting against the proposed ban.

"If law-abiding gun owners cannot obtain rifle ammunition, or face substantial difficulty in finding ammunition available and at reasonable prices because government entities are banning such ammunition, then the Second Amendment is at risk," the senators said in the letter.

On Tuesday, House Judiciary Committee Chairman Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican, said he was "pleased that the Obama administration has abandoned its attack on the Second Amendment",

Just suck up the reality you made, conservatives. You advocate having your folks ready to do battle with civil authories.

Why deny it, or try to weasel around it, the NRA doesn't.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 12, 2018 - 07:44pm PT
Cory Booker is presentable, plenty of charisma
Beto O'rourke has earned street cred, but probably to early for him
Kamala Harris, Well prepared for battle and a great litigator

I am Sparticus Booker

Miguel O'Rouke

Kamala "you can't handle the truth" Harris

Good candidates. Every one.

Maybe throw Alexandria "I am more smarter than you" Ocasio-Cortez into the mix.

The Democrats need to decide if their platform is moderate or far left.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:14pm PT
Moderate or far left...that leaves a lot of ground in the middle. Democrats need to bring back their natural base of blue collar workers who have been voting against their best interests because of polarizing side issues. The midterms showed they are on the right path.
Trump’s total inadequacies and blatant racisim will deliver minorities and educated whites to the democrats.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:43pm PT
I hear Gillibrand is thinking about 2020. Not my first choice--but she and Uncle Joe are the only sane candidates I've heard about from the D side.

On the R side, I hope Kasich makes another go in the primaries.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
Just suck up the reality you made, conservatives. You advocate having your folks ready to do battle with civil authories.

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2018 - 08:56pm PT
Lituya?

Posting a photo of me having fun celebrating Judge Wichell's 1800's patriotic photo on an obscure peak in the Sierras, doesn't help your NRA cause.


Just suck up the reality you made conservatives. You advocate having your folks ready to do battle with civil authories.

Why deny it, or try to weasel around it, the NRA doesn't.

I obviously, am not ready to do battle.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:06pm PT
Labels may largely depend on your perspective.

I sigh for those who advocate that police & civilians should be equally armed.

I sigh for those who are shocked the police now have armored cars & machine guns.

However, those who advocate, or wish for an armed & ready to revolt right-wing militia, want to face civil authorities on an equal or better footing.

Wanting may be key? History is complicated.



Fritz, let's repatriate some diamonds, support international inter-racial adoption, lobby for reduced cost AIDS and TB treatment. You could tell stories about the history of homesteading in Idaho. Lituya, I realize no guarantees, but could you help with security?

Alternately, there were tours in Oakland that visited sites that where significant events in the Black Panther Movement occurred. I may be able to host.

Stories are being lost. In places at a disproportionate rate. They should be heard and recorded. How do we get there?

Edit: historical exercise of 2nd amendment rights
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:20pm PT
Well, before we talk I'm gonna need Fritz to lower his weapon, s-l-o-w-l-y drop that hammer, and then remove his finger from the trigger guard. If he can't safely handle a revolver, I shudder to think of him bumbling with a 1911.

You advocate having your folks ready to do battle with civil authories.

Civil authorities have a history of alarmingly frequent incivility. So yes, Fritz, you are basically right.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
Trump being "strong on trade" is going to reap some rewards 2020. Question is, who will be the beneficiary?

www.agweb.com

The U.S. Department of Agriculture says farmers are expected to harvest the largest soybean crop on record, but they have to deal with a constricted market in which to sell their crop because of the administration's tariff battle with China. In its latest update, the USDA expected soybean harvest to tally 4.6 billion bushels. That's the largest ever!

Illinois leads soybean production with 688 million bushels, and Iowa is second. Selling soybeans to China has nearly halted with the tariff dispute resulting in a growing stockpiles and the lowest prices for farmers in more than a decade. Corn production is estimated at 14.6 billion bushels-the second largest crop on record.

Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:36pm PT
Fritz,

Try this... Lie down and look up at the sky. I'll do the same. In CA my view may be a bit more obscured, we're trying to reduce the emissions though. Same sky right?

If Lituya goes to unzip your jacket, don't freak! Ok,... do it!!!

Also, Fritz, apologies for any inappropriate cultural appropriation (i thought the panthers picture was pretty good though).

edit:
Civil authorities have a history of alarmingly frequent incivility. So, yes, you are basically right.

I really hope that the US may regain some standing in the world. Maybe ironically, if we had more in the past, there certainly was incivility. Still, some shined above it.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2018 - 09:43pm PT
Jim Clipper! Thank you for your moderate stance.

You like stories? I've posted a lot of climbing, gear history, & general interest stories on ST.

Links to Fritz ST posts----”

Climbing History & Old climbing gear.

Gauloises, Don Whillians, the Frogs & Climbing history.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1410426/Gauloises-Don-Whillans-the-Frogs-and-Climbing-History

CHOUINARD, GREAT PACIFIC IRONWORKS & Other Gear Threads
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2906806/CHOUINARD-GREAT-PACIFIC-IRONWORKS-Other-Gear-Threads

Chouinard carabiner timeline 12/11/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1327553

Royal Robbins/Mountain Paraphernalia timeline & history.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1022257&msg=1022257

My first mountain tent.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1060647&tn=20
The five stages of backing off climbs.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1039807/The-five-stages-of-backing-off-climbs
Climbing stories

Donini at The City of Rocks: Climbing as a Lifetime Sport! 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Donini-at-The-City-of-Rocks-Climbing-as-a-Lifetime-Sport/t10740n.html

Brenta Dolomites hiking & climbing 2014
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2482150/Brenta-Dolomites-hiking-stories-history-adventure-thread

Skyladder & North Face Athabasca Columbia Icefields 1974
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3051216/Skyladder-Mt-Andromeda-Columbia-Icefields-1974-Recently

A SLICK ROCK Adventure in Idaho with a single Blue Camalot Belay aug.2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-SLICK-ROCK-Adventure-in-Idaho-with-a-single-Blue-Camalot-Belay/t12821n.html

Pursuit of BlueBonnet tower and the Lost Crystal Cave. Dec 2009 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Pursuit-of-Bluebonnet-Tower-and-the-Lost-Crystal-Cave-Sawtooths-Idaho/t10506n.html

Elephant’s Perch New route 1/15/2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Elephant_s_Perch_Sawtooth_Range_Idaho_NR_Epic_Pacydermial_Pleasantries_1977/t10566n.html

Climbing at city of rocks with Donini 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Donini-at-The-City-of-Rocks-Climbing-as-a-Lifetime-Sport/t10740n.html

Mt Fay 1978 revised 2011 Trip Report.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/MARK-FRITZS-BIG-MT-FAY-1978-CANADIAN-ADVENTURE/t11242n.html

Royal Robbins Birthday thread back in Feb 2010. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1089550&msg=1091782

A direct start on The North Ridge Goat Perch with Bruce & Jesus
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1591843&msg=1592030#msg1592030

Fred Beckey, Pete Schoening: Climbing Epic Sawtooth's 1949
Idaho Magazine has just published my eight-page story in their May 2012 issue!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1823447&msg=1825410#msg1825410

Outdoor adventures.

A Search for Cave art, Prehistoric women, Wine & Adventures in France Sept 2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Search-for-Cave-art-Prehistoric-women-Wine-Adventures-in-France/t12848n.html

White Knob Peak, 2014
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/3rd-times-the-charm-on-White-Knob-Peak/t12511n.html

2 1/2 day N. Idaho adventure into big-river & dark-forests
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2228541/2-1-2-day-N-Idaho-adventure-into-big-river-dark-forests

CATCH & RELEASE POT HUNTING/ AKA THE OUTDOOR MUSEUM
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2135320/CATCH-RELEASE-POT-HUNTING-AKA-THE-OUTDOOR-MUSEUM

August 2011 Climbing with Donini, Jan, Brokedown at City of Rocks;
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1584605/Donini-Brokedown-Jan-the-over-50-posse-at-City-of-Rocks

Owyhee adventures: rock, cows, ticks, guns, Prehistoric women, & secret Air Force bombing sites. July 4th 2011
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Owyhee-adventures-rock-cows-ticks-guns-Prehistoric-women-secret-Air-Force-bombing-sites/t11055n.html

6-day San Juan River Workout, rafting, & Lost Tribe of Prehistoric Women Search Epic!
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/6-day-San-Juan-River-Workout-rafting-Lost-Tribe-of-Prehistoric-Women-Search-Epic/t11013n.html

BIG Water on the Bruneau! A rafting epic.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/BIG-Water-on-the-Bruneau-A-rafting-epic/t10888n.html

High Mountain mine exploring & Via Ferrata, Idaho Style—August 2010
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1245178/High-Mountain-mine-exploring-Via-Ferrata-Idaho-Style

A short piece on "getting high in the city" http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1205176&msg=1205513#msg1205513

2011 Short Springtime fun at City of Rocks
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Short-Springtime-fun-at-City-of-Rocks/t11032n.html

Our Big! 2010 fire
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1248574/A-Wake-UP-brush-fire-for-Fritz-Heidi

Some photos & remarks for my old climbing buddy Jim Donini about Terra Incognita in Idaho.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1665159&msg=1665217#msg1665217

2011 Sawtooth Mtns. Choss Adventure----The Grand Aiguille
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1599813&msg=1599813#msg1599813

2012 August A Short Visit to an Island! In NV. with a mtn. & history!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1902511/A-Short-Visit-to-an-Island-In-NV-with-a-mtn-history

4 mtns, 10 Cuts, & 100 miles of ridgetop dirt road in Idaho! Sept 2012
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1931187&msg=1931187#msg1931187

Training for, then climbing a 28,999’ Tropical Volcano
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/TRAINING-FOR-THEN-CLIMBING-an-AWESOME-8839-meter-28-999-Ft-TROPICAL-VOLCANO/t11824n.html

A Ridge So Far &/or Am I getting too-old for this? Idaho 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Ridge-So-Far-or-Am-I-getting-too-old-for-this/t13337n.html

FRITZ & HIS FLIES! BITING-FLESH ADVENTURES IN DEEPEST IDAHO! 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/FRITZ-HIS-FLIES-BITING-FLESH-ADVENTURES-IN-DEEPEST-IDAHO/t13327n.html



International Travel Adventures
Bariloche Argentina Treking becomes an adventure. 4/1/2010 http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Patagonia-Treking-becomes-a-Fritz-Adventure-Bariloche-Argentina/t10612n.html

Mustang story on Nepal appreciation thread. Dec 2011
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1680800&msg=1684994#msg1684994

Spring fun in Spain, with some climbing too!
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Spring-fun-in-Spain-with-some-climbing-too/t11400n.html

A visit to Donini’s Bivy cabin in Patagonia & ensuing adventures
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2101371/Chilling-in-Chilean-Patagonia-at-Basecamp-Donini-Bivy March 2013

A Search for Cave art, Prehistoric women, Wine & Adventures in France 2015
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Search-for-Cave-art-Prehistoric-women-Wine-Adventures-in-France/t12848n.html

HOTEL TO HOTEL HIKING WITH HEIDI & JERRY & ANGIE IN THE DOLOMITES 2018

http://www.supertopo.com/tr/HOTEL-TO-HOTEL-HIKING-WITH-HEIDI-JERRY-ANGIE-IN-THE-DOLOMITES/t13352n.html

A visit to Dubrovnik, some sailing in Croatia, & an Octoberfest Party on the way home 2017
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-visit-to-Dubrovnik-some-sailing-in-Croatia-an-Octoberfest-Party-on-the-way-home/t13220n.html




Lituya & his ilk post nothing but right wing political cartoons & schist stories, & I won't take it anymore, without responding.



apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:57pm PT

Sinema wins Arizona Senate race
The Democrat pulled out a come-from-behind victory to flip a formerly Republican seat.
By JAMES ARKIN 11/12/2018 04:42 PM EST Updated 11/12/2018 09:06 PM EST
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/12/2018-arizona-senate-election-sinema-mcsally-984928

Democratic Rep. Kyrsten Sinema has defeated Republican Rep. Martha McSally in the battle for the open Senate seat in Arizona, giving Democrats their second Senate pickup of the cycle.

Sinema had 49.7 percent of the vote to McSally’s 48 percent when The Associated Press called the race Monday evening. Though McSally led narrowly on Election Night, Sinema took the lead in the race two days later and continued to pad her edge as the state counted outstanding votes through the weekend and Monday.




First Democrat Senator in AZ in 30 years!

And waaaaaaaay better looking than any of the other old white guys in the Chamber....
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 09:58pm PT
Lituya & his ilk post nothing but right wing political cartoons & schist stories, & I won't take it anymore, without responding.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:09pm PT
Whatever happened to John Eleazarian? He's always been one of the most articulate conservative voices here who also has a very respectable climbing history.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:09pm PT
Ok, just this once. So Fritz doesn't go crazy with that wheel gun.

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2018 - 10:14pm PT
Mighty Hiker! Thank you.

Lituya & his ilk have nothing but bile to add to this forum.

The pistol waving photo of me that apparently means something to Cosmic & Lituya, was part of a trip report I posted this summer. They choose to post it out of contex in a vain attempt to mock me.

The Delights of Delano on the 1st day of Summer. 2018
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3099204&msg=3099702#msg3099702

Lituya? Where did you find that climbing photo? If you have something in you besides right-wing bile, it shows up darn rarely on ST.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:24pm PT
o.k. i'm done, a legend in my own mind... peace all, i'll sing myself away.


[Click to View YouTube Video]


id be lucky to share a rope with either of you guys. fwiw: i wore an access fund t-shirt to see johnny clegg. too young to catch sipho or andy at their peak. i scribbled ed feb. on it. u? if i've been mistaken, it wouldn't surprise me. finally, thanks for the content, im not in the bush league...

Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:25pm PT
If you have something in you besides right-wing bile, it shows up darn rarely on ST.

Sorry, Herr Fritz, but aren't you the one initiating a seemingly endless stream of political complaint threads? (When you're not bragging about your financial acumen or your latest globe trot, I mean.)

Your ST history reads more like the back of a Prius than a trip report. Still, I like you in a weird sort of way. Too bad for all that Idaho anger and crazy. Seriously though, take a gun safety course. Under no circumstances should a firearm be handled like that.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:26pm PT
First Democrat Senator in AZ in 30 years!

Great news.
So trump takes three trips to Montana to try and defeat Jon Tester-Tester won
trump campaigns in Nevada for Dean Heller- Heller lost
trump campaigns in Arizona for McSally- McSally lost

so much winning.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:29pm PT
ok im back... hope this works out. really. peace

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:37pm PT
Jim, the wife and I went to "Aussie Floyd" last month. They put on a really good show if they're ever in your neighborhood..
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 12, 2018 - 10:44pm PT
Sincerely, glad to hear you're traveling. We all should do some more. Maybe not the dream trip of youth, but a trip with the "better half", those truly in kind, may actually get you to highest places.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 07:17am PT
Good: cnn/ Acosta are suing trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/cnn-sues-white-house-to-regain-access-for-reporter-jim-acosta/2018/11/13/afc3423c-e6bf-11e8-bbdb-72fdbf9d4fed_story.html?utm_term=.08e81273d6b0

Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 07:34am PT
Apogee, it would be presumptuous to think I could do it on my own...

However, if I ever contributed to pissing off John E., and his leaving, I need to find a better use of my time. (I remember being pushy). There is a lot of unique experience here. It should persist through the inevitable back and forth.

Being presumptuous warning. I don't have the cred.

“It is better to die for an idea that will live, than to live for an idea that will die”

WBraun

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 07:38am PT
“It is better to die for an idea that will live, than to live for an idea that will die”

Most gross materialists ideas are ridiculously st00pid and they die for those st00pid ideas ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 13, 2018 - 07:53am PT

The death of another journalist. Trump backed the explanation from the Saudi regime. Everything is now pointing back to the Saudi regime as expected:

Audio evidence related to the killing of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi contains appalling details of the crime, the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, has said, as he continues to pile pressure on the Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman.

Erdoğan’s latest intervention came as the New York Times reported that a member of the Saudi hit team dispatched to Istanbul to kill Khashoggi told one of his superiors by phone to “tell your boss” the operation was accomplished, an apparent reference to Prince Mohammed, and a Turkish newspaper published x-ray images of the team’s luggage, which included defibrillators and syringes.

The audio recordings shocked a Saudi intelligence official, Erdoğan told reporters on his return to Ankara on Monday night from first world war commemorations in France, where he said the killing was discussed with his US, French and German counterparts.

“We played the recordings regarding this murder to everyone who wanted them from us. Our intelligence organisation did not hide anything. We played them to all who wanted them including the Saudis, the USA, France, Canada, Germany, Britain,” he said. “The recordings are really appalling. Indeed, when the Saudi intelligence officer listened to the recordings he was so shocked he said: ‘This one must have taken heroin, only someone who takes heroin would do this’.”

How's the Trump family business and their associates doing?

Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 07:58am PT
Most gross materialists ideas are ridiculously st00pid and they die for those st00pid ideas ......

Agreed. Most. Having only read an interview, the person previously quoted was truly exceptional, eloquent, and had a strength I will never know. Maybe because of those like him.

You may like this one:

The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed.

p.s. going to the mountains. maybe catch you all there

p.p.s. poignant post about journalists. in the final tally, some too have been exceptional.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 08:30am PT
News says Mueller is expected to drop some indictments today. It's almost need EST....my bet for timing is 4pm.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 13, 2018 - 09:30am PT
4 is when Tweet Boi is going to tense up and drop another depth charge salvo down the White House toilet...
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 09:39am PT
Roger stone and conspiracy nutter Jerome Corsi have said they expect to be indicted.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 13, 2018 - 09:50am PT
Is there anyone associated with Trump that hasn't perjured themselves...? Distressing that the Republican Congress tried to sweep all this under the carpet...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 13, 2018 - 09:52am PT
There's nothing like Black Panthers posing with guns to turn conservatives into gun control advocates, is there?

The Mulford Act was a 1967 California bill that repealed a law allowing public carrying of loaded firearms. Named after Republican assemblyman Don Mulford, the bill was crafted in response to members of the Black Panther Party who were conducting armed patrols of Oakland neighborhoods while they were conducting what would later be termed copwatching. They garnered national attention after the Black Panthers marched bearing arms upon the California State Capitol to protest the bill.

AB-1591 was authored by Don Mulford (R) from Oakland, John T. Knox (D) from Richmond, Walter J. Karabian (D) from Monterey Park, Alan Sieroty (D) from Los Angeles, and William M. Ketchum (R) from Bakersfield, it passed both Assembly (controlled by Democrats 42:38) and Senate (split 20:20) and was signed by Governor Ronald Reagan on July 28. The law banned the carrying of loaded weapons in public.

Both Republicans and Democrats in California supported increased gun control. Governor Ronald Reagan, who was coincidentally present on the capitol lawn when the protesters arrived, later commented that he saw "no reason why on the street today a citizen should be carrying loaded weapons" and that guns were a "ridiculous way to solve problems that have to be solved among people of good will." In a later press conference, Reagan added that the Mulford Act "would work no hardship on the honest citizen."
WBraun

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 09:56am PT
When there's dirt under the carpet they get the maid to vacuum there.

Haven't learned anything rotbrain when you went to skoowhol .... :-)
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 13, 2018 - 10:00am PT
MIT didn't have carpet sweeping until after i graduated ...
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Nov 13, 2018 - 10:12am PT

All of it - indictments, Acosta, umbrellagate is theatre to distract people. Trumps legacy will be a conservative court for the next 40 or so years. McConnell held the Senate open late to get a lot of Judges confirmed I checked the schedule and the Senate Judiciary met today. I believe he has gotten a record number for two years. With more coming.

But CNN likes to sit in their studio with their panel and bash Trump all day. Getting out there and actually finding things out is hard work.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 13, 2018 - 10:24am PT
"All of it - indictments, Acosta, umbrellagate is theatre to distract people."


I kinda doubt that Trump and his immediate advisors are specifically doing these things as an intended distraction strategy...I think he's just being himself, which results in this constant stream of shitshow.

The GOP as a whole however, knows a good distraction opportunity when they see one, esp. in their own camp. And they are using it for all it's worth to take action on things that will have generation-long impacts on America.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Nov 13, 2018 - 11:12am PT

It's actually strange to me as an ny-er. I would have thought Trumps legacy would be the yugest gold plated aircraft carrier the world had ever seen or something similar. Not something as subtle as changing the nature of the court. That's McConnells genius. He'll be shepherding Justices through while the "news" outlets are freaking out about Trumps tweet du jour. Years from now, I think McConnell will be the template for upcoming Majority Leaders.

But as above posters have mentioned, the GOP goes with what they got. CNN is loaded with 10/10 narcissists, the perfect foil to the 11/10 Trump. Made for each other.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 13, 2018 - 11:18am PT
even the hair on It's head is a distraction from what the It's dickhead self is doing. some sort of protective distraction, an anti-camouflage camouflage. but would you look at that headpelt?
dhayan

climber
culver city, ca
Nov 13, 2018 - 11:24am PT
It’s better to not live or die for ideas.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 12:30pm PT
I wish they were all distractions, but the problem is that what a president says, does, and how he comports himself is extremely important. Bashing CNN and a free press relentlessly, who in turn receive pipe bombs from emboldened nutcases: that stuff matters! Autocrats everywhere also take note. Calling white supremacists fine people: that matters too. Baselessly crying “fraud” about free elections in an attempt to disrupt and delegitimize them: matters. (Btw, think of the scary sh#t up he would stir up if loses in two years.)

The problem is that for the first time in history, we have to deal with a president who not only has immensely flawed policies, but who is also an immensely flawed person. We have to multitask our concern and outrage, but that’s probably asking too much from people.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 13, 2018 - 12:48pm PT
These aren't distracions...This is who Trump really is... He's not a president or leader but a crime boss for the Trump family syndicate using the American government to bolster his bank accounts...Way to go Republican voters...Proud of your orange haired commy felon..?
DanaB

climber
CO
Nov 13, 2018 - 12:56pm PT
I would have thought Trumps legacy would be the yugest gold plated aircraft carrier the world had ever seen

His legacy will the wall. And every 25 feet or so, there will be a plaque on it. With his portrait.

You think he hasn't imagined that?

bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
From y'day's electoral-vote.com; this will certainly be one of Trump's main 'successes' he will run on in 2020 (his 8 miles of 'wall'):

'Details are very scarce, but the AP and others are reporting that Texas firm SLSCo has been awarded a $145 million contract to build six miles of wall along the Mexican border. That will go along with 2 extra miles of fencing that has already been built in California, which means that the total for the Trump presidency will eventually reach 8 miles.

One point that is not clear is where the $145 million came from, and another that is not clear is where the authority to spend the money in that way came from. It is probable that the funds are being reallocated from other parts of the Department of Homeland Security budget. And it is likely that the authority is a liberal interpretation of already-existing Congressional approval for repairing and upgrading the current wall. The two miles in California was, in fact, regarded as a repair to the existing structure, and SLSCo will be fixing and heightening existing construction while adding the extra six miles.'
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
They broke ground on the first 6 miles of wall. Budgetted at 24 million. What are the odds of no addons?

Edit 145 mill, I stand corrected
bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:15pm PT
hmm- that must be $24 million per MILE
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:24pm PT
They broke ground on the first 6 miles of wall. Budgetted at 24 million. What are the odds of no addons?
I thought the total cost was $25 billion. They must be getting the money from elsewhere, as the new democratic house won't appropriate funds for it.
bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:30pm PT
The billions number is a (low) rough estimate for the physical structure; it doesn't include any allocation for buying any of the land...
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 13, 2018 - 01:47pm PT
I think President Trumps does a lot of rope-a-dope WWW drama crap as a distraction, tweets included. Yes very unPresidential and I think a lot of it is quite purposeful in that regard.

Some of it qualifies as that. But ignoring it isn’t always a great idea either.

Trump is trying to manipulate the vote count in Florida. If either of the Rs lose, he is going to try and convince his base that there was fraud.

This is how democracy dies of a thousand cuts.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
Trump is trying to manipulate the vote count in Florida. If either of the Rs lose, he is going to try and convince his base that there was fraud.

This is how democracy dies of a thousand cuts.
I am surprised his call for an end to the recount didn't get more coverage. I think it looms as one of his larger abuses of power in terms of it's potential harmful effects.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
^^^he’s warming up for the 2020 election.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
Ironic how the right wing gave Obama so much grief for making a negative comment about the service man who murdered an entire family in Iraq while he was off-duty. They said it prejudiced the mans trial. wow! Trump is so much beyond that, but not a peep out if the right wingers on how inappropriate it is to have the president weigh in on the business of other branches of the government.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:34pm PT
It’s better to not live or die for ideas.

No. Not when some are denied freedom.

And,

Yep, if you live or are willing to die for an idea, you are a fanatic.

No. If fanatic is used as a perjorative, you should maybe look at the perspectives of the user and the labeled. If you had said, "If you are willing to kill or do harm for an idea...", your argument may make me more agreeable.

Jerzy Popieluszko, Stephen Bikaw, Marlow's post.

With Trump, our war in the Mid East, inattention to global warming, we may have been shaken back into history.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:34pm PT
This is how a Republic dies of a thousand cuts.
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 13, 2018 - 02:58pm PT
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/11/trump-weighs-removing-chief-staff-dhs-boss-reports-181113190403029.html?fbclid=IwAR30AXd3Vl--VnKmxVJLSN3dIHFdZFWZI6wlv2JSy5D_6hFJRryuXKZS87c
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 13, 2018 - 03:39pm PT
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside

Nov 13, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
Ironic how the right wing gave Obama so much grief for making a negative comment about the service man who murdered an entire family in Iraq while he was off-duty. They said it prejudiced the mans trial.

What are you talking about?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 04:11pm PT
I also converted to atheism.

Those damned atheists.

They knock on your door...

They harass you at airports...

They promise you drugs and orgies...
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2018 - 04:30pm PT
dirtbag! Re your comment:

Those damned atheists.

They knock on your door...

They harass you at airports...

They promise you drugs and orgies...


Damn! All I ever got knocking on my door in Idaho was jehovah's Witlesses & Mormons, who didn't sing.

In my 20's, I started to warm-up to a gud-looking jehovah's Witless girl who had called on me twice. Luckily, I was hosting a more-outspoken friend for a few days & the jehovah's Witless girl visited again while he was home & I wasn't.

My friend Terry sternly warned her off & told her to never-ever visit again. Thank you Terry.

A married South-Idaho friend made the mistake of being nice to some Mormon missionaries who put him on the "visit frequently" list. That ended when my friend's wife made a point of greeting some missionaries nude, when they knocked on the door.

Heidi shucks all those people away quite efficiently & still keeps her clothes on.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 13, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside

Nov 13, 2018 - 02:27pm PT
Ironic how the right wing gave Obama so much grief for making a negative comment about the service man who murdered an entire family in Iraq while he was off-duty. They said it prejudiced the mans trial.

What are you talking about?

it is about "unlawful command influence"

I was wrong about the case Obama was accused in, it would have been the Lawrence Hutchins case, in which Hutchin's patrol executed an Iraqi father of 11 children. Although I do not find reference online to the controversy re Obama's comments, I distinctly remember it because Hutchins was held locally at the brig on Camp Pendleton and the case generated a bit of local press (we still had the semblance of an actual newspaper back then). Sec. of the Navy Ray Mabus was also accused of unlawful influence, but on appeal the court found that his comments came after sentencing.

A court subsequently did find that Obama exercised unlawful command influence in the military sexual assault scandal with this portion of a speech. The court held that if found guilty the defendants in the case could not be given a BCD or dishonorable discharge.

https://www.stripes.com/judge-obama-sex-assault-comments-unlawful-command-influence-1.225974

“The bottom line is: I have no tolerance for this,” Obama said, according to an NBC News story submitted as evidence by defense attorneys in the sexual assault cases. ‘I expect consequences,” Obama added. “So I don’t just want more speeches or awareness programs or training, but ultimately folks look the other way. If we find out somebody’s engaging in this, they’ve got to be held accountable — prosecuted, stripped of their positions, court martialed, fired, dishonorably discharged. Period.”

The same principle applies to pending cases the justice Dept is handling. The president's attempt to influence pending cases is undue influence, no different that "unlawful commend influence". there is no statute prohibiting these sorts of comments, but Trumps commentary on pending cases would be evidence for a claim that the prosecutor was influenced by the President (his boss).

Trump has a long history of prejudging cases inappropriately. I suppose Trump believes he has the same First Amendment rights as the common man. Trump neeeds to keep his pie hole shut on issues before the courts, but he is incapable, this is an attack on our system of justice.

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/his-own-words-presidents-attacks-courts
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 05:16pm PT
Moose. I agree in that I wish each of those 3 human beings I mentioned, should not have died for their ideas, but that's not the world we live in.

Do you have a perspective on the Velvet Revolution? Sometimes change comes quickly and irrevocably, however unwanted. If it comes slowly as a part of everyday life, the suffering less acute, is it remembered differently?

Truly, I respect your experience. One of my favorite encounters in Alaska, was meeting a Polish deck hand on a trawler. Built like a fireplug, he made it apparent that he would kick my ass if I left a fish hatch uncovered, but he did it in the nicest way. I think he knew I wouldn't, but the thought had to be shared. He would read his daughters kindergarten books after dinner, to teach himself English.

A lot of people from around the world, working for the meals, making the best of limited opportunities.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 13, 2018 - 05:21pm PT
Here is Worshington we had a 67.59% registered voter turnout. Thanks mail in ballots, no voting machines, lots of time to think about the issues, and no stamp required. This should be how every state holds elections; you can check online to see if your vote was counted, signatures required so no cheating, and a paper trail is there's a recount.

If I was running for President, which I might, I would make voting access, the right to vote, and gerrymandering major issues. Well, that and healthcare. And making wealthy people pay their fair share (I'm looking at you, Mr. No Pay Taxes for Ten Years Trump).
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 13, 2018 - 05:38pm PT
Jon Beck - Thanks for the clarification. I don't recall the case you discussed. I'm guessing criticism of Obama mostly involved those watching thew case. Not really a case of rightwing pundits showing hypocrisy vs Trump and his big mouth. But he does have a big mouth. And he sticks his foot in it more times in a month than most past Presidents did in a year.

Regarding the Mueller investigation, Trump's constant blather is excusable, considering it's primarily about him.

Looking forward to the next round of indictments.

-------------------------------


Mail-in ballots.

What a concept.

Safe.

Easy.

Thank you Washington State for showing us a better way.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 13, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
ok. my last post. please have the last word, really

I remember that some people said they were brainwashed.

I don't believe they were zealots.

With the destruction that was surrounding them, I believe that some knew they would not be reincarnated...

Extreme.

I believe that this too was ahimsa.



Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2018 - 07:08pm PT
The FBI reported today that hate crimes were up 17% in 2017, part of a rising trend for the last three years that makes them concerned.

It does strongly appear that Trump's frequent outbursts of hate & covert, & sometimes blatant support of right-wing haters, has empowered some of his base of bigots, racists, misogynists, homophobes, & those suffering Xenophobia, to start using violence against people from minorities.

From the N.Y. Times today:

Hate crime reports increased 17 percent last year from 2016, the F.B.I. said on Tuesday, rising for the third consecutive year as heated racial rhetoric and actions have come to dominate the news.

Of the more than 7,100 hate crimes reported last year, nearly three out of five were motivated by race and ethnicity, according to the annual report. Religion and sexual orientation were the other two primary motivators.

In addition to the tense political climate, the increase also points to a growing awareness among various law enforcement agencies of the importance of identifying and reporting hate crimes to the F.B.I.

Black people accounted for nearly half of hate crime victims last year, according to the F.B.I. Of those targeted based on religion, 58 percent were Jewish.

A man accused of fatally shooting 11 worshipers at a synagogue in Pittsburgh last month had taken to social media to accuse a Jewish organization that helps to resettle migrants of bringing “invaders” to “kill our people.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/us/hate-crimes-fbi-2017.html
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2018 - 07:49am PT
Poor, Poor, Donald Trump. He is soooooo-wronged, he has to keep throwing fits about how innocent he is & what a bunch of evil arseholes the Mueller team is.

Does anyone still believe he's innocent?


FOX NEWS Trump says Mueller investigators 'have gone absolutely nuts,' are 'a disgrace to our Nation'

President Trump on Thursday ripped into Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation, accusing investigators of having “gone absolutely nuts” and saying they are “a disgrace” to the country.

“The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts,” Trump tweeted. “They are screaming and shouting at people, horribly threatening them to come up with the answers they want. They are a disgrace to our Nation and don’t care how many lives the(y) ruin.”

He then focused his ire on Mueller, a former FBI director, who he accused of having conflicts of interest, though he did not elaborate on the accusation. Mueller served under both George W. Bush and Barack Obama.
“These are Angry People, including the highly conflicted Bob Mueller, who worked for Obama for 8 years. They won’t even look at all of the bad acts and crimes on the other side,” he said. “A TOTAL WITCH HUNT LIKE NO OTHER IN AMERICAN HISTORY!

The Associated Press reported this week that Trump advisers are concerned that Mueller has been stealthily compiling information and could soon issue new indictments (it has so far produced 32 criminal charges) or a highly critical final report.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-says-mueller-investigators-have-gone-absolutely-nuts-are-a-disgrace-to-our-nation/ar-BBPJYIN?li=BBnb7Kz&pfr=1

dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 07:51am PT
^^^Is Trump a wee bit worried?

He should be.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 08:14am PT
Just to say, I hope I didn't do anything to turn Lituya off. I remember someone saying who he is. Even if I'm mistaken, I believe it would still be a loss. Perspectives outside my own are no less valuable. Free civil discourse is unfortunately sometimes a privilege.

Again, maybe my confusion, but I remember a paper about plants, in distant mountains. Singular and tall, they either turned with, or faced the sun. Unusually, the authors included a local belief about people, the flowers? The paper was much richer for the perspective. It's a stretch to think he would know the paper specifically, but the perspective, no.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 15, 2018 - 08:16am PT
“The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts,” Trump tweeted. “They are screaming and shouting at people, horribly threatening them to come up with the answers they want. They are a disgrace to our Nation and don’t care how many lives the(y) ruin.”

Project much Donnie?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 15, 2018 - 08:33am PT
Time to start looking at 2020.

Hillary Clinton will reinvent herself as a “liberal firebrand” and mount a third presidential bid in 2020, her longtime adviser Mark Penn predicted in an op-ed for the Wall Street Journal published Monday.

Get ready for Hillary Clinton 4.0. More than 30 years in the making, this new version of Mrs. Clinton, when she runs for president in 2020, will come full circle—back to the universal-health-care-promoting progressive firebrand of 1994,” wrote Penn, who co-authored the op-ed with New York city council president Andrew Stein.

The former Secretary of State and twice-failed presidential candidate won’t “let a little thing like two stunning defeats stand in the way of her claim to the White House,” the pair wrote of Clinton’s resolve to defeat Trump in 2020.

Hillary 4.0?

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 08:55am PT
Lol, founder. R.I.P., the actor who played him died recently.




I have no idea specifically who should/will win in 2020. I haven’t paid much attention to elections beyond 2018. My preference would be someone boring and competent. Whoever emerges from the pack will not be able to compete with trump for air time or in his preferred field of battle (see Warren, Elizabeth, pocahontas). But, I have a hunch that with 2 more years of trump drama, boring and competent will look extremely appealing.

Edit: no hillary!

Edit 2: no Biden! (Though he would be a great person to stump for the nominee.)

Edit 3: no Bernie!
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 09:36am PT
I'm gonna go out on limb here and predict 2020

Gillibrand vs Flake
Trump

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 09:50am PT
I’ve learned to think that maybe Trump is entering the Querencia phase of his presidency.

Poor Donald - if only he had learned to think that those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Me, I’ve learned to think that I’ve learned to think the best things. Sometimes I’ve even learned to think the same thing more than once.

A guy just won the lottery after playing the same numbers since 1993. Who knows, maybe I’ll be right this time around.

Happy Thursday people!
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 15, 2018 - 09:51am PT
^possibly.
I wouldn't rule out the two women of color either. Neither one is Oprah.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:14am PT
Edward—With respect to Hillary 4.0:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:33am PT
In some respects, Hillary would be one of the best choices to go up against Trump: she's way more qualified for the job than Trump is, and there can be no doubt that she'd push back hard against his constant wall of bullsh#t...and given her experience with him during the 2016 campaigns, she'd be doubly motivated to crush his sh#t. I can't think of any other Democrat potential candidate right now that would be as able to go toe to toe with him in the way that is needed.

But her sense of entitlement and 'destiny' around being POTUS is a real turn-off- she is about as establishment as it gets, and this country really needs a new, fresh direction. A great number of votes Trump received were more about votes against Hillary (rather than direct support for Trump), and that kind of negative view is not going to change. Many of those who voted against her by voting for Trump would likely just stay home...with a similar net effect.

Hillary, please don't run.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:51am PT
^^^Is Trump a wee bit worried?

He should be.

Why should he be? You think republicans will turn on him?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:52am PT

Edit: no hillary!

Edit 2: no Biden! (Though he would be a great person to stump for the nominee.)

Edit 3: no Bernie!

How about just somebody who would still be under 65 when they are sworn in in 2021?
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:55am PT
Given the electoral college, Trump could well win again in 2020 and lose the popular vote a second time.

I imagine his mental shape by 2024 would be much worse than even Reagan's dementia was by the end of his administration. Of course, Trump supporters won't be able to tell the difference.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 10:59am PT
"Why should he be? You think republicans will turn on him?"


Yes, absolutely they will.

The right combination of Mueller investigative findings, along with a slacking economy, will certainly be enough to get a significant portion of Republicans in Congress to start to move against him. Though many have enjoyed drafting behind him, there are also plenty of Republicans that are as sick of his blathering sh#t as anyone.

The voters will do the same: sure, his base will turn out for him even if he shoots someone in Times Square, but there are more than enough 2016 Trump voters out there who would bail on him (for similar reasons as Congressional Republicans) if a reasonable alternative was presented.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 11:15am PT
I have no faith in republicans to ever turn on him. They’re hopelessly corrupt. Chickenshits all of them.

But, unless he is pardoned, he might face charges when he leaves office. Also, many states could charge him if state violations are revealed.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 15, 2018 - 11:23am PT
Anyone care to bet on the 2020 election?

I'll put $50 on Trump NOT winning the 2020 President election!

Loser donates to a cause picked by the winner.

Edit: Bet is cancelled if Trump is forced out of office due to criminal wrongdoing.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 11:28am PT
Too soon to take a bet like that, Edward. Though there are at least one or two Trumpsters here that just might take you up on it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 11:30am PT
"They’re hopelessly corrupt."

That's exactly why some of them will turn on him. This is GOP politics, after all...the guy in office is supported only to the extent they support their own interests.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 11:55am PT
The problem is that the gop can’t survivie without trump’s hard core base, and they will never abandon him. We’ve seen them concoct all kinds of loony excuses and stories in his defense. Ultimately this is why the gop is a slowly sinking ship. They are completely dependent on the faux news/breitbart folks who are, to put it mildly, a fact-challenged yet limited demographic group. But, a small majority of the electorate are completely repulsed by this bigoted, crooked nuttery.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:10pm PT
Well, we'll see how it goes. I do believe there is a tipping point where a significant number of Republicans will jump ship, but whether or not we reach that point is the real question. If conditions stay more or less like they are right now, that probably won't happen.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
Trump NOT winning the 2020 President election!

Betting odds are at -170 currently.
Bet $170 to win $100 if Trump loses.
WBraun

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:26pm PT
The system is and has always been rigged to support the ruling class.

The ruling class is corrupt and st00pid in this modern age.

The ignorant public is even st00pidier than ever by the way of their retarded corrupt controlled media.

You politard loons will never learn as you yourselves are swimming in the very same st00pid swamp ......
couchmaster

climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:28pm PT

Edward, folks would get better odds on Predictit. https://www.predictit.org/

....and in an attempt to help you, a bit of free advise is to never bet against Trump. That's what I've learned, and it cost me some real money. Not as much as I made betting he'd win the 2016 election at 3 to 1 odds...but enough to learn my lesson. In fact, I just bought into NO on the "Will Trump be impeached in his first term" market. 100 shares at $62 a share. If he gets impeached I'm out $62 bucks. I expect that those shares will be crap when the Mueller investigation starts in on Trump, in which case I'm planning on loading up with more shares. You can make a lot of money off guys like some of these ST idiots who bet with their hearts and not their minds.

I just sold most of my "Will Trump be President at the end of 2018 at $.97/share, I'd bought them in the .60/range not long back. Remember to read the rules carefully before you toss your $ratch into the pot. Sometimes the title differs or the rules have a trick to it.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:44pm PT
Thanks couch - After Apogee talked about Hillary being the only Dem able to hold her own against Trump and August saying he'll win because of the Electoral College I just put it out there.

Predictit is interesting. Kind of an ante up public sentiment site.

Right now the odds of Trump being impeached next year are 1:2.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 12:58pm PT
Setting aside the near-rabid anti-Hillary sentiment that exists on both sides, even if she's got the chutzpah to take on Trump, I'm not sure that kind of drama is of great enough interest to create a winning majority. The amount of stoooopid drama that has been a part of American politics has wildly accelerated in the last two years, and I'm not sure watching anyone match Trump's blather is appealing to key voters (with the exception of the psycho-Trumpsters, that is).
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Nov 15, 2018 - 01:29pm PT
I'm going on the theory that in most things other than Real Estate,
I always back the loserI said it somewhere else I'm not a betting man; having missed the Vietnam draft. . .
I already won
Gambling - Taking risks (climbing) that's another story
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 15, 2018 - 03:27pm PT
Although I know Hillary Clinton is qualified to be president, and would vote for her if she was the nominee, I hope she doesn't go for it. 2016 was such a toxic campaign, I wish for a candidate that is not attached to that time for the 2020 campaign. Bernie and Hilary should definitely campaign FOR whomever gets the nomination, but we need to move forward.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 15, 2018 - 03:28pm PT

......Hillary being the only Dem able to hold her own against Trump

I'll pay Hillary $50 not to run and I suspect lots of other people would too. Maybe I should start a GoFundMe campaign with that goal; wonder how much it would raise? Hmmmmm.

https://www.gofundme.com/help-hillary-not-run-for-president&rcid=r01-154232507889-b20628b505a34cf3&pc=em_co_campmgmt_w

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 15, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
"Why should he be? You think republicans will turn on him?"


Yes, absolutely they will.

The right combination of Mueller investigative findings, along with a slacking economy, will certainly be enough to get a significant portion of Republicans in Congress to start to move against him. Though many have enjoyed drafting behind him, there are also plenty of Republicans that are as sick of his blathering sh#t as anyone.

The voters will do the same: sure, his base will turn out for him even if he shoots someone in Times Square, but there are more than enough 2016 Trump voters out there who would bail on him (for similar reasons as Congressional Republicans) if a reasonable alternative was presented.

If Trump squashes the Mueller investigation, their will be outrage, outrage I tell you, for a few days. And then R's will get back on board.

The slacking economy is the fault of Obama and the new Dems in the House, and China stealing our jobs, and its all fake news anyway. The economy has never been better for the little guy and the Washington swamp has been completely drained, and anyway, what about Benghazi and the millions of terrorists from central America coming to rape your daughters...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 15, 2018 - 04:20pm PT
Great page of opinions right here.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 15, 2018 - 04:25pm PT
Moose, I did. And thanks for the donation!

https://www.gofundme.com/help-hillary-not-run-for-president&rcid=r01-154232507889-b20628b505a34cf3&pc=em_co_campmgmt_w
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 15, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
Damn Moose! Any money will actually go to a good cause.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 15, 2018 - 08:12pm PT
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/15/california-elections-results-mimi-walters-katie-porter-995504

Southern California Rep. Mimi Walters was ousted Thursday night, the latest House Republican to lose their seat in the formerly deep-red Orange County.

The Associated Press called the 45th congressional district race with Democrat Katie Porter leading Walters, a two-term incumbent who previously served in the California senate, by just over 6,000 votes as ballots continue to be counted.

So far, Democrats have flipped five seats in the state that are held or were previously held by Republicans. The party needed a net of 23 seats to retake the House and so far has gained 37 seats, with four races still too close to call. One of those races, the 39th congressional district, a seat previously held by Ed Royce, is now trending towards a pick up as Democrat Gil Cisneros leads Republican Young Kim by 941 votes with ballots continuing to be counted in the populous Orange County, which borders Los Angeles County.



On a campaign of Medicare for All, passing a ban on assault weapons, overturning President Donald Trump and the GOP's tax plan. In Orange County.

Maybe there's hope, yet.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
More proof that our President is seriously insane & seriously inane.

From Esquire Nov 15, 2018

The President* Is in an Outright Frenzy Over the Mueller Probe

The Mueller probe-what he knows and about whom and when in god's name is he going to tell the rest of us-hangs over everything in our politics now. In many ways, it has entered the realm of legend, since the facts Mueller and his team have accumulated remain their own private property. The investigation now has taken on a talismanic quality; the great Democratic sweep in the recent midterm elections have presented us with an incoming House majority that will take a more active interest in Mueller's findings than the departing Republican majority would have.

Because of this, and before they even discover where to get a decent takeout lunch in the Capitol, the new members of Congress enter into their jobs knowing that a huge and consequential series of acts already predetermined are about to fall upon them, but nobody knows exactly what those will be, and most of the newcomers are positively nerve-struck at the idea of talking about what those acts might be.

Even worse, down at Camp Runamuck, the target of the investigation is shredding his last nerves and flinging them out onto the electric Twitter machine in what only can be called an outright frenzy. To wit, and just from Thursday morning:

From Trump:

The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts. They are screaming and shouting at people, horribly threatening them to come up with the answers they want. They are a disgrace to our Nation and don't…....care how many lives the ruin....These are Angry People, including the highly conflicted Bob Mueller, who worked for Obama for 8 years. They won’t even look at all of the bad acts and crimes on the other side. A TOTAL WITCH HUNT LIKE NO OTHER IN AMERICAN HISTORY!...Universities will someday study what highly conflicted (and NOT Senate approved) Bob Mueller and his gang of Democrat thugs have done to destroy people. Why is he protecting Crooked Hillary, Comey, McCabe, Lisa Page & her lover, Peter S., and all of his friends on the other side.


I pity the poor staffer who's tasked every morning with scouring the White House trying to find the president*'s hinges. All of this is simply a farrago of Foxified nonsense. Mueller is a Republican who also worked for the Bush Administration and, oh, why bother?

There is, however, a sense of something big suddenly Closer Than It Appears in the White House side-mirrors. And the new members of the House are going to have to get comfortable with the fact that history is going to be dropped on them in one big and unwieldy lump as soon as they're all sworn in. They may have come to Washington to work on infrastructure or education or healthcare or the opioid epidemic, but confronting a renegade profiteer (and, very likely, criminal) president* is going to tie up a great deal of their first term in Congress.

Because the president* is losing it bigly, and because Bob Mueller, with no expression on his face, is reaching across his desk for another file.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/president-outright-frenzy-over-mueller-180800218.html
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Nov 15, 2018 - 09:46pm PT
“The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts,” Trump tweeted. “They are screaming and shouting at people, horribly threatening them to come up with the answers they want. They are a disgrace to our Nation and don’t care how many lives the(y) ruin.”

Wow, sounds like the Donald is describing himself . . . coincidence? Doubtful.

When do we call in for back-up?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:44am PT
From Trump:

The inner workings of the Mueller investigation are a total mess. They have found no collusion and have gone absolutely nuts.

Trump may be batshit crazy and incredibly childish. But he's got a point. This issue has primarily been about Trump colluding with Russian officials to win the presidency. It's been investigated for over two years.

We're still waiting for a member of Trump's team to be convicted of collusion.

Who has been charged with colluding with the Russians?

Is Roger Stone the smoking gun?


Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 16, 2018 - 07:51am PT
EdwardT, I'm thinking you'll be as wrong about this as you were about celebrating Kim Young's victory a few pages back.

Mind you, this report comes from a far left wing commie website:
Republican congressional candidate Young Kim, who just days ago was poised to be the first Korean-American woman in Congress as she led a closely contested California House race, is accusing her opponent of "harassing and intimidating” vote counters as her lead has disappeared.

Kim is vying to replace retiring Rep. Ed Royce, R-Calif., in California’s 39th District, which includes part of the state's more Republican Orange County. Last week, she held about a 3-point lead over Democrat Gil Cisneros with about 150,000 votes counted.

But since then, that lead vanished, with Cisneros taking a 941-vote as of late Thursday.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/republican-young-kim-loses-lead-in-california-house-race-accuses-opponent-gil-cisneros-of-harassing-vote-counters
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:01am PT
I think this really is the Querencia.. the rest has all been foreplay.

Ugh...Is it the Quakers who say some things must be witnessed? I shudder. Still, I think I've already paid, so hopefully Mueller will bring the money shot. Looking for some new lows. Pence?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:02am PT
Acosta gets his press credentials back judge rules. Judge was appointed by Trump last year.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/16/media/cnn-trump-lawsuit-hearing/index.html
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2018 - 08:26am PT
Edward T! Per your above post, you mention about the Mueller investigation:

It's been investigated for over two years.

You really do need to quit watching Faux News.

Per Wikipedia:

The investigation, since it began May 17, 2017, has been conducted by the United States Department of Justice Special Counsel's Office, headed by Robert Mueller, a former Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

That is almost exactly 18 months. It just seems like over 2 years to Trumpists.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:26am PT
I'm not holding my breath that there will a smoking gun in Mueller's report that shows clear collusion directly on Trump's part. But there is likely to be lots of other really dirty dirt, with more indictments of his inner circle, including his family.

Mueller has been incredibly disciplined throughout this whole nasty process, and I'm confident whatever he comes forward with will be legally solid, no matter what the Trumpsters think about it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:34am PT
Edward, I know you weren't a Trump voter, and not a great fan of his, so why do you discount the dozens of indictments that have come down from Mueller's investigation? Even if you think the scope of his investigation was unreasonably ill-defined, the indictments and convictions that have occurred are serious, and quite real. Should they simply be disregarded?

C'mon. If these kinds of findings occurred with a Democrat, you'd be furious.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:36am PT
Here you go Fritzie:

In late July 2016, "the CIA had set up a special group with the NSA and FBI... to investigate the extent of Russian intervention in the presidential election." Former CIA director John Brennan then "ensured that all information about links between the Trump campaign and people working for or on behalf of Russian intelligence went to the FBI."

Love the convenient ignorance.

Keep up the good work.

Edward, I know you weren't a Trump voter, and not a great fan of his, so why do you discount the dozens of indictments that have come down from Mueller's investigation?

How many dozens of indictments involve Trump campaign members?

How many indictments involve wrongdoing as campaign members?

C'mon. If these kinds of findings occurred with a Democrat, you'd be furious.

You do have a penchant for ignorant assumptions.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2018 - 08:47am PT
Edward, an investigation is started when there's a lot of smoke around an issue. That's why it's investigated. At the end of the investigation, if it's done thoroughly and methodically, the results could theoretically point in any direction, and can involve many people associated with the process.

Isn't that pretty much what's happening here? You argument is cherry-picking: you are arguing that because one specific result hasn't been found, the whole process is invalid.

Again: if this process was going on against a sitting Democrat POTUS, I seriously doubt any Republican would have any criticisms about the results thusfar.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 16, 2018 - 09:53am PT
Acosta gets his press credentials back judge rules. Judge was appointed by Trump last year.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/16/media/cnn-trump-lawsuit-hearing/index.html

FoxNews actually filed an amicus supporting CNN on this one. The issue hasn't been decided--the judge only issued a two week restraining order.

No matter, you have to admit Acosta is a childish tool. I doubt he'll be called on again.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 16, 2018 - 10:11am PT
Acosta was childish? now that is funny. Judge ruled in his favor because of a high likelihood that he will ultimately succeed at trial. This from a Trump appointed judge. Actually Acosta gets a due process hearing on the issue, not sure what form that will take but you can be sure the outcome will be contested.

So what if he never gets called on again, him just being in the room pisses Trump off.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 16, 2018 - 10:30am PT
I think he meant Acosta is childish in general. He did come across as childish or at least overly overtly woke when he insisted that Trump call on a women next. Although there may have been context to that which we weren't aware.
Even if he chooses not to go back winning this case is important.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 16, 2018 - 04:47pm PT
Speaking of voter fraud....

A Republican senator was just recorded stating that she supported plans to make it more difficult for citizens of the opposing party to vote.

"Maybe we want to make it [voting] just a little more difficult. And I think that’s a great idea."
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:34pm PT
Trump said this of Mueller's written questions for him:

"My lawyers don't write answers. I write answers," he said. "I was asked a series of questions. I've answered them very easily."

Exactly what the questions covered is not known. However, Mr Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani told the Washington Post on Thursday he had not answered questions relating to the period after his election, saying some were "possible traps", while others were "unnecessary" or "irrelevant".

LOL, reminds me of this scene:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

I know everything. Ask me anything!
Pass, next question.
Pass, next question.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
Trump's interpretation of decorum means reporters can refer to the first lady as " Horse Face"...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:47pm PT
Trump didn't like Judge Timothy Kelly's ruling, so he's going to write new 'rules' around what makes for appropriate 'decorum' amongst journalists at press conferences:


'A sword hanging over our heads': Trump discovers new weapon against media
The administration is drawing up rules for White House reporters' behavior, and the president said if journalists don't follow them, 'we'll end up back in court, and we'll win.'
By JASON SCHWARTZ 11/16/2018 06:13 PM EST

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/16/trump-jim-acosta-cnn-999675

(Excerpts)

After a judge ruled that the White House violated the CNN correspondent’s right to due process by stripping him of his press badge, press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders declared that the administration was drawing up new rules to govern reporters’ behavior — and a process for booting them if those rules are broken.

“We have to create rules and regulations for conduct,” Trump told Chris Wallace in a Fox News Sunday interview, echoing Sanders’ announcement. “It's not a big deal. If he misbehaves, we'll throw him out or we’ll stop the news conference.”

"If they don't listen to the rules and regulations," he told reporters at a separate event at the White House, "we'll end up back in court, and we'll win."

It was Trump and Sanders, after all, who escalated the Acosta situation after a dispute at a news conference by yanking his press pass and, to justify it, pointing to an apparently altered video of his interaction with a White House aide.

Federal Judge Timothy Kelly, a Trump appointee, ruled that the administration had denied Acosta due process in revoking his security pass, citing shifting White House explanations, no clear process, no advance notification to Acosta and no chance for him to rebut the allegations. Kelly ordered the White House to return Acosta’s credential on a temporary basis, while the rest of the case moves forward.

Now, the administration says it's creating a process for banning reporters who do not show “decorum” at events.




Decorum.

Let that word settle in for a moment, with consideration to it's source.
WBraun

climber
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:51pm PT
You fools keep throwing your minds into the dumpster of st00pid with all this politard horesh!t ....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:52pm PT
Says the Lloyd bridges of dumpster diving...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 16, 2018 - 05:53pm PT
Nah, Werner, we're mostly just here to troll you.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 16, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
haha lloyd bridges of dumpster diving
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 17, 2018 - 04:15am PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Nov 16, 2018 - 08:47am PT
Edward, an investigation is started when there's a lot of smoke around an issue. That's why it's investigated. At the end of the investigation, if it's done thoroughly and methodically, the results could theoretically point in any direction, and can involve many people associated with the process.

Isn't that pretty much what's happening here? You argument is cherry-picking: you are arguing that because one specific result hasn't been found, the whole process is invalid.

Cherry picking? Really?

APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSEL
TO INVESTIGATE RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE WITH THE
2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND RELATED MATTERS

The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James 8. Comey in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:
(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 17, 2018 - 04:25am PT
SomebodyAnybody

Big Wall climber
Torrance

Nov 16, 2018 - 05:33pm PT
There is no question about "collusion", though that's a bit of a red herring in that the criminal charges are likely to conspiracy to defraud the United States, conspiracy to receive stolen property and who knows what else.

The "collusion" has been shown already. People like Edward seems to misunderstand how large criminal enterprises are "rolled up". You methodically climb the ladder, squeezing the pawns and rolling one after another up the chain. It's how the NY mob was approached, how major international drug cartels are approached. "Oh no, there's been no prosecution". Gates - flipped. Manafort - flipped. Papadapa - flipped. Cohen - flipped.

No collusion you say? That's amusingly naive at best.

Donnie "the chinless wonder" Jr: "If it's what you say, I love it. Especially later in the summer".

Donnie Jr then went on to meet with the Russians in an attempt to get stolen emails. There is no controversy about whether this happened. Manafort was in the room, Kushner was in the room. Even Steve Bannon has called this "treasonous".

Well, sh#t fire Maybelle... that's an impressive bit of blather. Who knew you were partial to Steve Bannon? LOL

We're still waiting for a member of Trump's team to be convicted of collusion.

Has anyone associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump been indicted for colluding/conspiring with the Russian government?
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 17, 2018 - 08:01am PT
Cherry picking? Really?
yes. in fact your quote directly under this where you bolded a section and ignored the others is the poster child for cherry picking
(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation; and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 17, 2018 - 10:57am PT
The American general public is so unaware of realities that trying to participate in discussions is just a frustrating distraction. I used to think that rock climbers might be a little further along in the learning process.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 17, 2018 - 12:54pm PT
These political threads are only useful to me for philosophical concerns, and most are rightfully sh!tcanned...but here goes...

One of my basic disagreements with my many progressive friends is their belief that society must be fundamentally transformed (A major theme of Obama's first presidential campaign).
We are living during the sweet spot of history, on one of the sweet spots of the planet, and some would like to upset the apple cart? Yikes!.

This 6 minute youtube exhibits Jordan Peterson's wisdom (IMHO) concerning his skepticism toward political correctness and the inevitable unintended consequences of social policy.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 17, 2018 - 01:34pm PT
Hey Moose,
First, I tend toward less control by government.
Second, in all advertising it's buyer beware.
And if politicians are being bought, who's selling?

Edit: How bout full disclosure of all contributions?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 17, 2018 - 08:45pm PT
One of my basic disagreements with my many progressive friends is their belief that society must be fundamentally transformed (A major theme of Obama's first presidential campaign).
We are living during the sweet spot of history, on one of the sweet spots of the planet, and some would like to upset the apple cart? Yikes!.

Larry, that was perfect. Nailed it. Trim tabs--but not a hard pull on the rudder.
zBrown

Ice climber
Nov 17, 2018 - 08:51pm PT
And if politicians are being bought, who's selling?


Obviously everybody!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 17, 2018 - 08:54pm PT
"One of my basic disagreements with my many progressive friends is their belief that society must be fundamentally transformed "


I dunno about the idea of seeing society 'fundamentally transformed', but I do think this society is a long way from being as good as it could be. Why settle for less?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 17, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
I dunno about the idea of seeing society 'fundamentally transformed', but I do think this society is a long way from being as good as it could be. Why settle for less?

I think the problem isn't that the posters above are against making things better, but rather that they are -- rightfully -- worried that people calling for fundamental transformation of current society don't understand the law of unintended consequences.

As one of them said, "trim tabs, but don't yank on the rudder." Or, as I would put it, if you try to make a big freight train take a hard right (or left) turn, all you'll get is derailment.

Yes, there is plenty that could be changed for the better, but given that things are not really bad, incremental change is better than revolution.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 17, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
"incremental change is better than revolution."

Unfortunately, the loudest voices on the left advocate for upending everything, and the loudest voices on the right advocate no change at all (or seemingly, regression).
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 17, 2018 - 09:50pm PT
Unfortunately, the loudest voices on the left advocate for upending everything, and the loudest voices on the right advocate no change at all (or seemingly, regression).

It's actually the other way around. Trump got elected because he promised to upend the apple cart and drain the swamp. Starting 40 years ago the right decided to upend the New Deal, and they have succeeded.

As for the left, there is no left in this country.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 17, 2018 - 10:27pm PT
I dunno about the idea of seeing society 'fundamentally transformed', but I do think this society is a long way from being as good as it could be. Why settle for less?

Because most of the prescriptions being offered are worse than the condition.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 17, 2018 - 10:36pm PT
Status quo of many of the problems in our society is not acceptable either, Lituya.

Those who vocally resist or denounce change invite conflict from those who see obvious, inarguable problems in our society. I suspect that offerings of changes that involve any kind of solution...even if the process is incremental...would go a long way towards gaining broad support.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 17, 2018 - 11:01pm PT
status quo also WILL NOT WORK for our children and definitely not for their children.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:36am PT
Too general of a statement to discuss.

What issues should be tackedled incrementally and what should be tackled radically?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:17am PT
Too general of a statement to discuss.

What issues should be tackled incrementally and what should be tackled radically?

What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans? What would you recommend to improve those issues?

For me:

End Political divide - No clue. Maybe corporate, religious and social leaders get together and negotiate a plan to unite this country. Then tell the politicians to play ball.

Top issues:

End the polemic rhetoric. quit catering to the fringes.
Enact law overturning Citizens United.
End gerrymandering. non-partisan districts/boundaries, nationwide.

Low wages Incrementally raise minimum wages to a reasonable level. Maybe $20/hr by 2028. Partial increases for workers under age 21.

Illegal immigration - Fix the damn problem and then obey the laws. Dreamers get a shot at citizenship. Illegals register with the government. Allowed to obtain green card, with strict rules for maintaining green card status. Allowed to apply for citizenship. In the back of the line. End chain migration. Seal the border. Penalized governments providing sanctuary.

Affordable healthcare - Obamacare was a good, but flawed, step in the right direction. Don't repeal it. Fix it!

Environment - Continue to raise CAFE standards. Harsher rules for polluters - can you say coal ash spill? Raise fuel taxes 20 cents/yr for five hears. Two thirds for infrastructure. Remainder for green energy.

Guns - Register all guns. Required gun safety course certification. Additional training and background checks for "collectors". Get rid of semi-automatic weapons. Criminalize possession of converted semiautomatics.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:18am PT
An easy, obvious one that needs a radical change:

Quality of national leadership. One can implement many of the policies of the current administration without being a leader who acts like a d#@&%ebag to almost anyone.

Of course, Americans get the leadership they vote for, and apparently there are plenty who actually like and respect this style of leadership. That's much more of a reflection on us and the society we all participate in.

Edit:
That's a very good list, Edward...I can get behind much/most of it.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:26am PT
EdwardT, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

EdwardT/Norton 2020!
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:31am PT
The kind of person who can beat Trump and unite the nation is someone who would/can avoid going toe to toe with him. In 2016, we kept looking for someone to put him in his place. It didn't and it's not gonna happen. He's too skilled a trash talker. It needs to be someone who's not gonna play his games. The best example I can think of is Barack Obama. His '08 campaign was mostly positive. Hope and Change. Not sure which prospective candidate fits the bill. Less sure if such a person would win the nomination.

i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:36am PT
Barack Obama. His '08 campaign was mostly positive. Hope and Change. Not sure which prospective candidate fits the bill.
If only there was another Obama...
Michelle 2020
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:44am PT
The same Michelle who just said:

Back in '08, "there were people who didn't know what a black woman looked and sounded like"?
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:48am PT
Orange Country, California, one of THE most republican counties in the US

goes 100% Democrat in every single Congressional District

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:50am PT
I think the healthcare issue is one that needs more of a radical change than incremental- the underlying weakness in it as it stands (and the ACA only perpetuates) is the profit-driven way it operates with insurance companies as middle man. The ACA doesn't really address this at all.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:51am PT
The same Michelle who just said:

Back in '08, "there were people who didn't know what a black woman looked and sounded like"?
yes that one. I'm confused, is that statement bad in some way that I'm not getting?
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:14am PT
I am curious why guns are the issue the left makes them out to be...

Crime, violent and otherwise have never been lower. We live in the safest society in the history of the world.

And yet, the media drives us into a frenzy to blame an inanimate object for an imagined fear.

No other inanimate object is blamed when there is a perceived wrong...


I wonder why that is? Could it involve power of the governed vs. the governing?
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:22am PT
EdwardT, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

me too, amazing.

The kind of person who can beat Trump and unite the nation is someone who would/can avoid going toe to toe with him.

not as sure on this one.
I think that if someone went toe to toe with him, and questioned his reasoning, even trump's supporters might take a step back.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:26am PT
Norton

climber
The Wastelands

Nov 18, 2018 - 07:48am PT
Orange Country, California, one of THE most republican counties in the US

goes 100% Democrat in every single Congressional District

That Blue Wave was kind of a nice swell.

Compared to Clinton's and Obama's first midterm, this election was MEH.

Clinton lost 8 in the Senate and 54 in the House.

Obama lost 6 and 63. Highest loss of a party in a House midterm election since 1938, and the largest House swing since 1948.

Trump lost 40 House seats. Significantly less than Clinton and Obama. And he gained in the Senate.

Looking back at all the anti-Trump anger we've seen over the last two years, it appears that moderate Americans aren't as concerned about Trump as we're led to believe.

Elections are the only polls that really matter.

Edit: Your graphic implies Orange County overwhelming supported Trump in 2016, even though Hillary received more votes. Hmm.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:44am PT
EdwardT, you need to take into account the significant gerrymandering that went on in 2010. That was at least partly responsible to the big GOP gains during the Obama term, and the Dem gains this year were in spite of that.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:48am PT
The Democrats just won a massive wave election. The depth and breadth of that wave has become more clear, day by day, but Democrats picked up more House seats than in any election since 1974, just a few months after Richard Nixon resigned the presidency in disgrace.

Which may be a clue and a portent. As in this can get even worse for the Republicans.

Democrats also flipped seven governorships, at least eight state legislative chambers and over three hundred state legislative seats, and now hold a majority of state attorneys general. Their overall national popular vote margin for the House rivals that of the largest Republican waves, with only unethical, undemocratic gerrymandering preventing their seat gain from being even larger. Even more ominously for Republicans, the usual national political battleground that is the suburbs swung hard for Democrats, and it's hard to see it swinging back even toward the middle anytime soon.

Only an ignorant racist derp would call that at a "meh"
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:54am PT
I am curious why guns are the issue the left makes them out to be...
Parkland, Sante Fe High School, Thousand Oaks, Umpqua, Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh come to mind. But each year those make up a small slice of gun related deaths, which including suicides tops 30k. The fact that many of the deaths are children plays a large role. And it's not just the left. the right makes a huge deal about it too. preventing any sort of regulation is a central pillar of their platform.


As long as we're talking media fear mongering frenzy, how's the brown invasion at our border going?? the caravan's coming to gitcha!!
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Nov 18, 2018 - 08:57am PT
I did hear from one of “them” (lol),that in a Republic,the House is more representative of the populace than any other branch.

So ,that ,does not matter.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 09:06am PT
Blue Wave Results:

Trump - Still President

Senate - Still GOP control. Gained one seat.

Governorships - Gop leads 27 -23

State trifectas - GOP leads 22-14

State legislatures - GOP control 31 to Dems 18


i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 18, 2018 - 09:13am PT
comparing senate elections in different years is difficult unless you go and look at how many seats were up for grabs in each election. everyone knew it would be hard for democrats to gain since they were defending 26 seats this election vs the republicans 9
dirtbag

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:00am PT
The Democrats just won a massive wave election. The depth and breadth of that wave has become more clear, day by day, but Democrats picked up more House seats than in any election since 1974, just a few months after Richard Nixon resigned the presidency in disgrace.

You have to remember, too, that republicans were running during a strong economy. If it dips, even just a bit, they are going to be in a lot of trouble next time.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:04am PT
Edward: great list on the previous page.

I don’t think I could add much, but I would make strengthening voting rights, protection of various democratic institutions, and ethics as areas needing radical reform. These are topics that should generate bipartisan interest, and as the last two years have revealed, need immediate, far reaching reforms.

dirtbag

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:06am PT
The kind of person who can beat Trump and unite the nation is someone who would/can avoid going toe to toe with him. In 2016, we kept looking for someone to put him in his place. It didn't and it's not gonna happen. He's too skilled a trash talker. It needs to be someone who's not gonna play his games. The best example I can think of is Barack Obama. His '08 campaign was mostly positive. Hope and Change. Not sure which prospective candidate fits the bill. Less sure if such a person would win the nomination.

100%

I hope everyone running in 2020 looked long and hard at Elizabeth Warren’s recent Pocahontas belly flop.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:29am PT
Ed - Considering where the Republicans were prior to the election I would not call those numbers a success.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2018 - 10:30am PT
Per Norton's post on Orange County going blue:

Orange Country, California, one of THE most republican counties in the US

goes 100% Democrat in every single Congressional District

One of the reasons that happened is, a lot of Christian conservatives have fled Orange County. Unfortunately for Idaho, a schist-pot of them have moved here.

Here's a link to an article on the subject in High Country News.

How right-wing emigrants conquered North Idaho
https://www.hcn.org/issues/45.8/how-right-wing-emigrants-conquered-north-idaho
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:30am PT
AntiChrist:
Makes way more sense to regress to time when you needed a dime to call someone and someone was home so you leave a message. A time when black men were hung for looking at a white woman the wrong way. A time when nobody even knew what MPG stood for.
Of course it needs to be transformed you idiot.

I remember even before answering machines, ya just had to call back later...and party lines were great fun for kids.
Black men have been my room mates and friends my whole life...they even let me look at black women the "wrong" way.
My first car being a VW without gas gauge, with spare 1 gallon tank lever down low, I always calculated my MPG...self interest.

Sorry for the regression...back to politics
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 11:15am PT
Sorry, EdwardT, but you're way off base with most if not all of the items your list. Minimum wage laws are enslavement--and render unions irrelevant. Why the #$%& should illegals get a shot at citizenship? Ever. And the last one on your list is a non-starter. Most will never register their guns with the government. I sure won't.

There you go.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 11:17am PT
Orange Country, California, one of THE most republican counties in the US goes 100% Democrat in every single Congressional District

Gerrymandering! Bwaaaaaak!! Voter suppression!! Bwaaaaaaaaak!!!! The Russians!!!! BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAK!!!!!!!!
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 12:25pm PT
Sorry, EdwardT, but you're way off base with most if not all of the items your list. Minimum wage laws are enslavement--and render unions irrelevant. Why the #$%& should illegals get a shot at citizenship? Ever. And the last one on your list is a non-starter. Most will never register their guns with the government. I sure won't.

There you go.

Going down my list:

You're fine with the current level of political rhetoric? Really?

Fine with the extremely wealthy dominating campaign messaging and the candidates they support?

You're really okay with obscene gerrymandering? It's little more than exploitation by those in power. It's not representative of the people.

No minimum wage increases? It used to be kind of a safety net for the lowest earners. Now, what's the endgame?

Illegal immigration - What's your solution?

Healthcare - What's your solution? Before Obamacare a significant number of Americans royally screwed. You're okay with going back to that?

Guns - Why shouldn't we have reasonably requirements for owners of deadly weapons? Why should guns be to rare exception to just laws?

It's easy to say "you're wrong". Let's hear your solutions.

Or, back to my initial query:

What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans? What would you recommend to improve those issues?

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 18, 2018 - 12:52pm PT
The 49th district in CA was an extreme example of gerrymandering. It is mostly in North San Diego with a small part of Orange County tacked on to insure it stayed red. That piece of OC is separated by almost 20 miles of empty land called Camp Pendleton. Without redistricting it went blue, easily.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
Dear Leader has made a Tweet in which he calls Adam Schiff "Little Adam Schitt."Seriously - what the hell is wrong with this dude?

On the other hand, he'd fit right in here when the political threads get sideways.

Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 01:09pm PT
One of the reasons that happened is, a lot of Christian conservatives have fled Orange County. Unfortunately for Idaho, a schist-pot of them have moved here.

Interesting. Having been spawned there (in O.C), and having left, I never heard the news. I think the Crystal Cathedral was sold. Did Rick Warren take a fall? Folks brandishing symbols of wealth must still abound. Maybe the realities of living on a SSI check changed some views.

I thought demographic shifts, boomer kids, and migrants might have mattered.

Anyway, Fritz, sorry if you get tired of the transplants. Make a trip to Santa Cruz. When you get here we'll pull the tires off your rig, and make you some sandals, make sure you stay for a while.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Nov 18, 2018 - 03:26pm PT
"I didn't know my AG appointee was a Mueller critic." Really? That makes him an idiot or a liar. Oh, wait...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Nov 18, 2018 - 04:42pm PT
Here’s an election result.

This is a picture of a celebration of house republicans after the House voted to eliminate the Affordable Care Act. Th X’d out Republicans were voted out of office by their constituents.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 18, 2018 - 05:00pm PT
^^^^^

That's a photo of the Republicans celebrating after they denied health insurance to 23,000,000 American citizens.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
You're fine with the current level of political rhetoric? Really?

Fine with the extremely wealthy dominating campaign messaging and the candidates they support?

You're really okay with obscene gerrymandering? It's little more than exploitation by those in power. It's not representative of the people.

No minimum wage increases? It used to be kind of a safety net for the lowest earners. Now, what's the endgame?

Illegal immigration - What's your solution?

Healthcare - What's your solution? Before Obamacare a significant number of Americans royally screwed. You're okay with going back to that?

Guns - Why shouldn't we have reasonably requirements for owners of deadly weapons? Why should guns be to rare exception to just laws?

Edward, I like your balanced positions generally, but your left-of-center wish list came as a surprise. IMO, compromise only works when both side participate--and your list compromises a lot without asking for or suggesting anything in return.

In order:

--Political rhetoric waxes and wanes. Are you suggesting it be restricted in some way? I hope not.

--If the 'extremely wealthy' are, in fact, dominating political discourse they're doing it to help liberals. 2018 Democrats certainly didn't rely on grass-roots donations to outspend Republicans. Gerrymandering happens on both sides. I live in a newly-created district gerrymandered by WA Democrats.

--Minimum wage as a safety net, maybe. But you're suggesting that government mandate a living wage. What nonsense. Zero-sum at best; corrosive more likely.

--Illegal immigration. Deport illegals immediately. Like almost every other nation on earth does. Repeal birthright citizenship, either through SCOTUS clarification of the 14th, or by constitutional amendment. Generous legal immigration continues.

--Healthcare. I'll give Obama props for following the process through Congress--and for trying to make right a system that hadn't been free-market since the 1940s. His work on ending the preexisting condition nonsense was magnificent and struck a balance between the needs of people and fairness to insurance companies. Medicare expansion or an early "buy-in" might work. But this one is complicated.

--Guns. Reasonable requirements? Like what? And what are "we" asking for in return? (I can think of some compromises I'd be willing to make in exchange for a end to the discussion--forever.) Again, we're not talking about privileges here like driving a car or practicing law or medicine. We're talking about a Constitutional right. Do rights have limits? Sure, some do. The devil's in the details. Government doesn't (and shouldn't) know where the guns are or who has them except in extraordinary circumstances.
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 05:35pm PT
^^THAT made my night. this may not belong here, most certainly I don't belong there. On the good foot. If you can't relate, maybe why climb?

[Click to View YouTube Video]

at least skip to hank at 5:30

edit: the picture, I may have been pre-empted
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
^^Engaging in conversation is "taking the bait?" You're a strange fellow, DMT.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:07pm PT
Lituya...What should the middle class and poor give in return...? Any ideas what would be fair...?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:14pm PT
We're talking political ideology here--not economic class. I know, you like to conflate as it suits your worldview, but the two are not congruent. Glasses off for a few, eh?
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
EdwardT: What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans?
For me:
End Political divide - No clue. Maybe corporate, religious and social leaders get together and negotiate a plan to unite this country. Then tell the politicians to play ball.
Low wages Incrementally raise minimum wages to a reasonable level. Maybe $20/hr by 2028. Partial increases for workers under age 21.

I ask ST progressives to forgive me for using Marxist logic in my response.

A. The root cause of growing polarization of US society and US politics is growing divide between rich and poor.
B. The root causes of growing divide between rich and poor are:
1) globalization, outsourcing, offshoring
2) free trade
3) high immigration of unskilled people putting pressure on job market

Limiting #1, #2 and #3 would lead to healthier job market without any need to increase minimum wage.
A bit more progressive taxation is nice to have but not really mandatory if the above recommendations are implemented.

Progressives' pep talk about cooperation, minimum wage etc. is useless without limiting #1, #2 and #3.

Although limiting #1, #2 and #3 is beneficial to underprivileged Americans, it's detrimental for a standard of life of educated upper class progressives. This is a real reason why they oppose Trump's attempts to limit #1, #2 and #3.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
Lituya...You saying you don't have any class...?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 18, 2018 - 06:57pm PT
Lituya

Mountain climber

Nov 18, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
^^Engaging in conversation is "taking the bait?"

My post wasn't intended as bait. More of a request to offer your own ideas, instead of simply dismissing mine, You did that. Thanks.

It'd be great if the Tacopolitards would focus on more civil exchange of ideas and less on petty f*#kyouisms.

To all you Tards:

What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans? What would you recommend to improve those issues?

What would be supported by most Americans? Think 60-70%. Not 51%.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:13pm PT
Lituya...Don't feel bad...Edward is a master baiter...
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:36pm PT
Lituya...Don't feel bad...Edward is a master baiter...
. . . and you're kind of childish.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:38pm PT
“It'd be great if the Tacopolitards would focus on more civil exchange of ideas and less on petty f*#kyouisms.”

+1
John M

climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
What do you consider the most important issues facing Americans? What would you recommend to improve those issues?

reduce military by 25% ( can be done slowly, can buy off senior staff so that staff doesn't stagnate )
Pay them better so that we can attract better quality.

Take money and start paying down debt.

spend money on fixing infrastructure

Do a better job of fixing healthcare. Get profits out of insurance or go to single payer for basic care and insurance for higher levels of care. ( that should satisfy the elite and allow it to happen )

Get money out of political elections.

......

Thats a start.. there is more.



edit:: And raise taxes on the 1 percent so that we can pay for raking our forests.

( sorry, couldn't resist. you gotta admit that was a pretty stupid thing that Trump said. Besides.. I admitted that Hillary was dumb for calling people "deplorables" )



Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
Lituya tells RJ off! OH MY!

Nov 18, 2018 - 07:36pm PT

Lituya...Don't feel bad...Edward is a master baiter...
. . . and you're kind of childish

Lituya: I suspect you are the only one here taking this thread seriously. Anyone who considers a political thread serious, on a climbing forum, is "mentally-challenged."

Thank you for your serious posts.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 18, 2018 - 09:26pm PT
Lituya: I suspect you are the only one here taking this thread seriously. Anyone who considers a political thread serious, on a climbing forum, is "mentally-challenged."

Well, maybe if a relatively few posters could back off from shrieking at each other, more of us would chime in with thoughtful content.

In fact, maybe alongside thinking about important issues facing Americans (and the world), it might be worth engaging in civil argument about issues here, rather than looking for every opportunity to insult those with different viewpoints.

The last few days -- on this thread, at least -- have seen a considerable increase in thoughtful posts, with only a couple of people responding with rote insults. Makes it almost tempting to chime in...
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 18, 2018 - 09:40pm PT
I suspect you are the only one here taking this thread seriously.

Well, Fritz, you do start the lion's share of political threads on ST. If you don't want others' opinions, then why do you ask? If you just want echo-chamber/choir responses that validate Fritz, then, by all means, I'll abstain from engaging with you. If you don't like insults--then don't insult. Pretty simple stuff.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 18, 2018 - 10:14pm PT
I voted for Newsom, johntp. I hope that he doesn't squander the $14 billion surplus that 'Moonbeam'....the Cali Democrat that fiscally 'responsible' Repubs have reviled throughout my lifetime....has left for the state.

Do you really think Cox was going to do anything better for Cali? More to the point: does it really matter to you?



Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:42am PT
Gerrymandering! Bwaaaaaak!!

For Lituya:
http://www.redistrictingmajorityproject.com/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDMAP
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/06/01/616216560/episode-845-redmap
10b4me

Social climber
Lida Junction
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:17am PT
--Illegal immigration. Deport illegals immediately.
who is going to pick your crops, mow your lawn, wash your car, clean your toilets? you know, the jobs white people don't want to do.

Government doesn't (and shouldn't) know where the guns are or who has them except in extraordinary circumstances.

lituya, the gubment already knows, too late.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:19am PT
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
Lituya tells RJ off! OH MY!

Nov 18, 2018 - 07:36pm PT

Lituya...Don't feel bad...Edward is a master baiter...
. . . and you're kind of childish

Lituya: I suspect you are the only one here taking this thread seriously. Anyone who considers a political thread serious, on a climbing forum, is "mentally-challenged."

Right!

It's only important when you think it's important.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 19, 2018 - 08:30am PT
who is going to pick your crops, mow your lawn, wash your car, clean your toilets? you know, the jobs white people don't want to do.

Why do we need to mercilessly exploit a group of people to perform these tasks?
dirtbag

climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 08:39am PT
And that’s the other side of the coin.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 19, 2018 - 01:38pm PT
I wouldn't say EdwardT comes off as middle of the road, more like right of center. I consider my philosophically centrist, and probably left of center compared to the average American socially, and probably still centrist economically. It's interesting where I think he is more left than me.

//End Political divide - No clue. Maybe corporate, religious and social leaders get together and negotiate a plan to unite this country. Then tell the politicians to play ball.
Top issues:
End the polemic rhetoric. quit catering to the fringes.
Enact law overturning Citizens United.
End gerrymandering. non-partisan districts/boundaries, nationwide.//

I think ending gerrymandering could help here. As much as constitutionally feasible I'd like to see districts evenly split red/blue so candidates would need to be moderate to win. With gerrymandering they make highly concentrated left and right districts where the left/right wingers win. These are often the people who don't compromise, don't see that the govt. is supposed to work for everyone, and engage in terrible rhetoric.

//Low wages Incrementally raise minimum wages to a reasonable level. Maybe $20/hr by 2028. Partial increases for workers under age 21.//

I think if we compare minimum wage to inflation we get a reasonable level. I'm not in favor or paying fast food workers the same as EMTs as could happen with a high minimum wage. It's also tough because minimum wage should be different in San Francisco compared to Bakersfield.

Illegal immigration - Fix the damn problem and then obey the laws. Dreamers get a shot at citizenship. Illegals register with the government. Allowed to obtain green card, with strict rules for maintaining green card status. Allowed to apply for citizenship. In the back of the line. End chain migration. Seal the border. Penalized governments providing sanctuary.

One area I agreed with Dubya Bush was a guest worker program. Take the underground economy for cheap labor that exists and helps our country our into the open. Just because someone comes here and works doesn't mean they need to become a Citizen, but they should have rights and pay taxes.

Affordable healthcare - Obamacare was a good, but flawed, step in the right direction. Don't repeal it. Fix it!

Agreed. We kind of screwed ourselves in this country with private health insurance typically provided by employers. It's going to be a bigger and bigger hindrance to us competing in a global economy with countries with more efficient systems.

//Environment - Continue to raise CAFE standards. Harsher rules for polluters - can you say coal ash spill? Raise fuel taxes 20 cents/yr for five hears. Two thirds for infrastructure. Remainder for green energy.//

Agreed.

Guns - Register all guns. Required gun safety course certification. Additional training and background checks for "collectors". Get rid of semi-automatic weapons. Criminalize possession of converted semiautomatics.

This is to the left of me. Practically we'll never register the millions of guns out there. It would be much easier to track ammunition and ammunition supply sales. I'm okay with most guns not being registered. I'm okay with semi-autos. I'm for the ability to own most types of guns including fully automatics IF we do a much better job keeping them out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. Universal background checks for all gun sales. Stiff penalties for providing a gun that was used in a crime. Guns with replaceable clips (assault rifles) and hand guns should have mandatory training required for purchase and stiffer background check requirements and only be allowed in certain places (e.g. I'm okay with a full automatic assault rifle out in the dessert, but not in cities).
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 19, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
I think ending gerrymandering could help here. As much as constitutionally feasible I'd like to see districts evenly split red/blue so candidates would need to be moderate to win. With gerrymandering they make highly concentrated left and right districts where the left/right wingers win. These are often the people who don't compromise, don't see that the govt. is supposed to work for everyone, and engage in terrible rhetoric.

How about non-partisan boundaries? Use natural boundaries, legal boundaries (city limits) and/or algorithms. End the manipulation of boundaries to benefit the party in charge.

One big problem I have with gerrymandering is it creates very partisan districts, which results in hardliner representatives.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 02:39pm PT
Gerrymandering - again, there is a long tradition of this in America on both sides. I suppose an algorithm could be written that would align districts every ten years based on an agreed-to formula.

Guns - I would agree to many restrictions that were also imposed upon police, e.g. magazine capacity, etc. Again, like Fritz, I prefer revolvers and lever or bolt-action rifles. I do own a couple of semi-autos, but I'd give 'em up if the police were required to do the same. Maybe a ban on hi-capacity semi-autos in exchange for lifting most or all restrictions on more "traditional" types of arms like revolvers, shotguns, lever/bolt rifles?

Also, I've often wondered why civilians and police are free to carry hollow-pointed ammunition--but soldiers are forbidden to do the same. IMO, hollow-pointed ammunition is nothing more than a substitute for poor marksmanship.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 02:48pm PT
Deeeep breath there, Tut. Someone's been watching too much MSNBC again.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 02:52pm PT
The status quo works for you, but not for 90% of the people.
It's not in my financial interest to change the status quo, but it just hurts seeing how so many people in our country are deprived of basic human needs.

90%?? Wow, I had no idea. Please explain. Sorry, Moose, but I think your numbers are the product of Koolaid.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 03:01pm PT
methinks

Just because Shakespeare and Thoreau used it doesn't mean you ought to. In fact, please stop. It makes you sound dumber than you already are.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 19, 2018 - 03:38pm PT
You have a gun fetish. There is no need for semi-auto weapons in civilian hands.

Insulting someone is always a good strategy... Semi-auto can be very advantageous for hunting and target shooting. Plus they are fun to shoot. I believe in the freedom of law abiding people to own what they want with reasonable restrictions to keep them out of the wrong hands and out of the wrong places and very stiff penalties when they are misused for everyone involved. That's what America is about IMO. Taking a hard line stance one way or the other does nothing to advance any reasonable compromises.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 04:55pm PT
Lock her up!!!

Ivanka Trump used a personal email account to send hundreds of emails about government business last year


https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ivanka-trump-used-a-personal-email-account-to-send-hundreds-of-emails-about-government-business-last-year/2018/11/19/6515d1e0-e7a1-11e8-a939-9469f1166f9d_story.html?utm_term=.88143b8af281
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:20pm PT
Insulting someone is always a good strategy... Semi-auto can be very advantageous for hunting and target shooting. Plus they are fun to shoot. I believe in the freedom of law abiding people to own what they want with reasonable restrictions to keep them out of the wrong hands and out of the wrong places and very stiff penalties when they are misused for everyone involved. That's what America is about IMO. Taking a hard line stance one way or the other does nothing to advance any reasonable compromises.
I agree on the insulting stuff not being a good strategy but after that I disagree.
Sure semi-automatic guns are fun and advantageous for hunting. But I think the fact they are the preferred choice of mass murderers outweighs that. in the same way that the dangers of explosives outweigh the fact that they are also fun (way more fun than guns imo) and can also be advantageous for hunting (fishing really)
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:30pm PT
Lituya,

Based on the publications (backed by the polls):

2 out of 3 people want gun control

80% want an immigration reform

78% want our troops back home (stop the wars)

over 80% want healthcare for all

etc.

Since some of those ideas don't overlap, it's easy to see that at least 90% of the population is not satisfied with their representatives.

Sorry Moose, but you just made these up. And even if there are "polls" to back up what you claim, the answers you provide are nebulous. For example, "80% want immigration reform." Ok, in what form? Hard-line? Open borders? Somewhere in between? I suspect yes. "80% want healthcare for all." Well, who wouldn't! Single payer? I doubt your 80% number holds. Might not even hold at 50. "2 out of 3 want gun control." Show me the numbers. And the question that was asked.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:33pm PT
Gun control support surges in polls


*Roughly 2 in 3 Americans now say gun control laws should be made more strict in the wake of the murder of 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, according to a number of polls, including a new POLITICO/Morning Consult poll that shows support for stricter gun laws among registered voters at 68 percent, compared with just 25 percent who oppose stricter gun laws.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/28/gun-control-polling-parkland-430099
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
Seventy percent of Americans support 'Medicare for all' in new poll

A vast majority — 70 percent — of Americans in a new poll supports "Medicare for all," also known as a single-payer health-care system.

The Reuters–Ipsos survey found 85 percent of Democrats said they support the policy along with 52 percent of Republicans.

The move to abolish Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) was also opposed by a majority of respondents. Seventy percent of Republicans said they opposed abolishing the 15-year-old agency, while Democrats said they were evenly split on the issue, with roughly 44 percent in favor of abolishing it and 44 percent saying it should remain.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/403248-poll-seventy-percent-of-americans-support-medicare-for-all
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:42pm PT
Since when does the will of the people override the NRA's gun lobby?
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:43pm PT
i think it was clear when moose said 'an' immigration reform it was open ended.
while some may be left biased, and the gun control poll may have lost a little support as time wanes (there will be another parkland don't worry) i assure you none of them are made up.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:46pm PT
Troops at U.S.-Mexican border to start coming home
By WESLEY MORGAN 11/19/2018 04:15 PM EST Updated 11/19/2018 05:36 PM EST
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/19/troops-us-mexico-border-come-home-1005510

The 5,800 troops who were rushed to the southwest border amid President Donald Trump’s pre-election warnings about a refugee caravan will start coming home as early as this week — just as some of those migrants are beginning to arrive.

Democrats and Republicans have criticized the deployment as a ploy by the president to use active-duty military forces as a prop to try to stem Republican losses in this month’s midterm elections.



Gosh.....ya think??
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 19, 2018 - 05:59pm PT
I think the fact they are the preferred choice of mass murderers outweighs that.

I respect your opinion, but I feel that if some idiot does something wrong with something it shouldn't affect my ability to have that thing if I'm going to use it responsibly. Timothy McVeigh used fertilizer to make a bomb to kill hundreds in OKC. They shouldn't stop selling fertilizer, but if they want to put regulations in place that say if you buy over a certain amount you have to get a license by proving you are a farmer I'm fine with that. If we regulate semi-autos to say you have to have a semi-auto license and that requires passing a gun safety course, and an extensive background check including mental health, I think that's a good idea. In California you have to basically do that to get a concealed carry permit. And I think that's a good idea. I think it should be expanded to if you are carrying a gun in a public place, or you have a handgun (which are all pretty much semi-automatic) or a semi-automatic long gun.

Basically I'm not willing to give up my (and my fellow law abiding citizens) rights and freedoms because other people are insane or do stupid things. However I'm in favor of much better regulations, the more dangerous the weapon or object the more tight the regulations.

There's plenty of people who see rock climbing and think it should be illegal. They say climbers can get killed, drop rocks on people, or need a rescue (usually paid by tax dollars and a risk to the rescuers), or damage the rock in public parks. They don't need to rock climb. Why should we allow it? Cause it's freedom baby yeah.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:04pm PT
I respect your opinion, but I feel that if some idiot does something wrong with something it shouldn't affect my ability to have that thing if I'm going to use it responsibly. Timothy McVeigh used fertilizer to make a bomb to kill hundreds in OKC. They shouldn't stop selling fertilizer, but if they want to put regulations in place that say if you buy over a certain amount you have to get a license by proving you are a farmer I'm fine with that. If we regulate semi-autos to say you have to have a semi-auto license and that requires passing a gun safety course, and an extensive background check including mental health, I think that's a good idea. In California you have to basically do that to get a concealed carry permit. And I think that's a good idea. I think it should be expanded to if you are carrying a gun in a public place, or you have a handgun (which are all pretty much semi-automatic) or a semi-automatic long gun.
Quite a few of us would consider that the gun control we're after. Sure we would prefer a ban on assault rifles but ANY MOVEMENT AT ALL would help. We wanted single payer, but were happy that we at least got the ACA as hopefully a starting point.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:08pm PT
A vast majority — 70 percent — of Americans in a new poll supports "Medicare for all," also known as a single-payer health-care system.

"George Mason University found it would lead to $32.6 trillion increase in federal spending over a 10-year period. The study’s author, Charles Blahous, wrote in The Wall Street Journal earlier this month that even doubling taxes would not cover the bill for a single-payer health-care system."


I wonder if respondents were informed about the cost? The devil's in the details. And libs love to skip over those pesky details. BTW, Medicare expansion is certainly NOT the same thing as "single-payer."


"The new Reuters poll also showed that a majority of Americans supports free college tuition. Forty-one percent of Republicans said they supported the policy, pollsters found, compared with 79 percent of Democrats."

FREE STUFF!!
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:11pm PT
Since when does the will of the people override the NRA's gun lobby?

It doesn't. Unless they amend the Constitution. Good luck.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
There's plenty of people who see rock climbing and think it should be illegal. They say climbers can get killed, drop rocks on people, or need a rescue (usually paid by tax dollars and a risk to the rescuers), or damage the rock in public parks. They don't need to rock climb. Why should we allow it? Cause it's freedom baby yeah.
That's a ridiculous misdirection. There is zero science to back up a claim that rock climbing can hurt non climbers. Compare that to the thousands of deaths each year caused by gun owners on non gun owners. The people claiming guns are dangerous have actual facts on their side (yes I know both sides distort statistics). Facts matter.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:15pm PT
Now, back on topic. Go Nancy!!
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:18pm PT
Funny how you left the part before George Mason university which is,
The Mercatus Center, a libertarian policy center based at
"George Mason University found it would lead to $32.6 trillion increase in federal spending over a 10-year period. The study’s author, Charles Blahous, wrote in The Wall Street Journal earlier this month that even doubling taxes would not cover the bill for a single-payer health-care system."

Responding to the study, Sanders took aim at the Mercatus Center, which receives funding from the conservative Koch brothers. Koch Industries CEO Charles Koch is on the center’s board.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
^^Hey, you're the tool who thinks a government glove up his @$$ is a good idea. No problem with Medicare expansion--as long as there is an "opt out" private market option.

BTW, you think 18% is high? Govt could do better?

I know you like to claim to be a doctor on the internet. For those who really are, and support single-payer, get ready for a big pay cut.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
Mercatus Center sponsored by the Koch brothers... .Jim Carey butt cheek laugh...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:41pm PT
"No problem with Medicare expansion--as long as there is an "opt out" private market option."


Damn....that would be distressingly close to the Canadian model...
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:44pm PT
You won't hear me bashing on Canada. They do well for themselves. There are many things we should emulate--but many we shouldn't.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:49pm PT
Every Canadian I know says their healthcare system works just fine for them, and can't believe America is so retarded when it comes to this issue.

There is a gov't managed healthcare system that provides basic care for any citizen. It's basic, so those that wish to have better coverage can purchase private plans on their own.

Seems entirely reasonable to me...there is basic healthcare for everyone, but those who want better than basic pay for what they want.


Why can't we make that happen here? Because the insurance industry is as effective as the NRA in lobbying congress, and spreading bullshit lies about how it's not possible, and disaster awaits if we try.


BTW....the caravan is here. Why are the troops leaving?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
You won't hear me bashing on Canada.

I'll bash those frosty bastards!

Take off, Hosers!!!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Tim Hortons - 8 parking spaces

WTF???
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:52pm PT
There are also billions invested in the industry--by ordinary Americans. Like Fritz. And pension funds.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 06:56pm PT
So no effort should be made to do something different?

If there's one thing both sides can agree on, it's that our current system is catastrophically dysfunctional.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:06pm PT
So no effort should be made to do something different?

I haven't heard anyone say that. The problem is that both sides want 100% of their wish-list fulfilled.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:08pm PT
Tim Hortons - 8 parking spaces

If there is anything Canada needs to apologize for, it's Tim Hortons. Worse. Than. Taco. Bell.
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:24pm PT
Back and forth nail biter in Utah...

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/11/19/election-update-utah/

I think Ben's got it.

Full disclosure...(ha ha)...we have a Ben sign in our yard even though he's not in our district.

Be 'bout time we get a bit of representation here in the very red Utah.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 19, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
Lituya! Re your comment on current discussion about going to Universal Healthcare:

There are also billions invested in the industry--by ordinary Americans. Like Fritz. And pension funds.


Thank you for keeping track of my investments, It's gud to know you care.

However, I do support an orderly transition to universal healthcare, & per the original Obamacare, the health insurers always win.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
What do you think would be a reasonable direction, Lituya?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 19, 2018 - 07:51pm PT
The republicans want 100% of their wish list approved which translates to no universal health care but let's all pretend they want to fix the problem...
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 19, 2018 - 08:19pm PT
apogee:
"No problem with Medicare expansion--as long as there is an "opt out" private market option."

Damn....that would be distressingly close to the Canadian model...
No. It woouldn't.
In Ontario you are not allowed to "opt out".
In Ontario you are not even allowed to pay out of your pocket for services that theoretically can be had for free.

What you described is closer to German model when you are required to have either government or private health insurance.

Every Canadian I know says their healthcare system works just fine for them, and can't believe America is so retarded when it comes to this issue.
Apparently all of them are young healthy people.
Older folks with some health issues do not believe this BS.

Yes, Canadian system is cheaper.
However American system is better from point of view of quality of service (for most people).
Bale

Mountain climber
UT
Nov 19, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
Brian, I don’t think Love has conceded yet, but it looks pretty good for McAdams. Go Ben!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
Yury, there's a difference between quality of healthcare, and access to it. The quality of American healthcare is the highest in the world...if you can get access to it.

Accessing the healthcare system in the US means going through the 'middle man' of the insurance industry...an industry whose sole motivation is profit and returns for their shareholders. This completely distorts the real costs of health care.

And at this point in my life, and the lives of my many Canadian friends...we are not exactly 'young and healthy'. Yet, I can't remember a single Canadian I've encountered who thought their country's system was absolutely unacceptable, and thought the US had a better way to go.

Edit:
"What you described is closer to German model when you are required to have either government or private health insurance."

My comment was over-simplified, to be sure. I didn't mean to suggest that Lituya's comment was a strict replication of the Canadian model. But it was close.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 10:12pm PT
The republicans want 100% of their wish list approved which translates to no universal health care but let's all pretend they want to fix the problem...

...and Democrats want 100% of their wish list approved or any movement toward a fix to represent movement toward single-payer. But let's all pretend they actually want to fix the problem...

See how it works?

Yuri, thanks for clarifying Canadian healthcare. I've heard good and bad. A doctor friend of mine treats dozens of Canadian citizens who can't get prompt care in Vancouver.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
Last I read Medicare overhead was 3% bro.

And yea, MD class of 2006 UC Davis. Look it up, I give no more shits.

If you say so. Your temperament is far beneath that of any doctor I know.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 10:18pm PT
So what direction do you think the American healthcare system should take, Lituya?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 10:31pm PT
Full implementation of the ACA--including the parts Obama himself refused to implement. And, maybe, a phased lowering of the Medicare age. A raising of federal taxes to pay for it in the form of additional Medicare payroll tax for every citizen.

But always, no matter what, a private-sector option.

Just ideas. None of us really know how to fix this.

Your thoughts and/or ideas?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 19, 2018 - 11:14pm PT
Damn, Lituya...your vision sounds almost liberal.

I think we need a system where every tax-paying citizen has a baseline level of healthcare. That basic level should be very basic, but enough to provide preventative care, and basic emergency care when it's needed. Preventative care may be a bit delayed, but not unreasonably so. The insurance industry should have little or nothing to do with this baseline healthcare system.

If citizens want better care...more immediate care...there should be a means by which they can obtain it, if they can pay for it themselves, without subsidies. This might involve the insurance industry (not sure how that could be avoided).

A major problem with all of this...that I have no idea how to solve...is that healthcare costs are so twisted up with insurance reimbursement rates and negotiations...that it's really hard to get a sense for what the actual cost of the treatments and therapies.

Though I appreciated Obama's efforts at changing our current system, even if it had been fully implemented, it still relies on a profit-driven insurance system, regardless of what level of healthcare one seeks. The idea that the ACA was going to be a baby step towards a complete revision of the system was pie in the sky.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Nov 19, 2018 - 11:19pm PT
Not liberal at all--it's just that the current healthcare system isn't really free market--so I won;t defend it like I will capitalism generally.

Hell, even Medicare requires paid supplements now to make ends meet. My dad just received a bill for $175 from his doctor--because he asked a question that wasn't covered under Medicare guidelines.

Medicare For All might end up eventually meaning more of the same.

A major problem with all of this...that I have no idea how to solve...is that healthcare costs are so twisted up with insurance reimbursement rates and negotiations...that it's really hard to get a sense for what the actual cost of the treatments and therapies.

Man, I could tell you a story...
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Nov 20, 2018 - 04:30am PT
apogee:
Yury, there's a difference between quality of healthcare, and access to it. The quality of American healthcare is the highest in the world...if you can get access to it.
apogee, for majority of Americans your health care system is better than Canadian one from quality and access point of view.

Have you ever heard about waiting times?
Just google for "waiting times" and add the name of any Canadian province.

There are some segments of American population (like independent contractors without corporate insurance) with access issues, but for more than 51% of people American system is better than Canadian one.


I think we need a system where every tax-paying citizen has a baseline level of healthcare.
apogee, I did not know that you were a conservative. ;)
What about tax-paying non-citizens?
What about not so basic heart attack, stroke or cancer?
Should they be covered?

Again, Obamacare is a monstrocity designed to please health insurance companies.
It's possible to design a single payer system with private providers of services and mixed (depending on a state) private/public administration of services that can be supported by majority of American voters and majority of American politicians.

Again, some people like young single healthy males and healthcare executive would not like it.
Again, it should not be a monopoly and should coexist with private insurance to cover better services.

Do you understand why Obama has not even tried to develop such option?

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:24am PT
As a physician for 20+ years, I have seen it all in terms of the American health care system.

We have to get capitalism out of health care. The privatization of health care has been an unqualified disaster. Capitalism in health care establishes a vast realm of unintended consequences and counter-productive incentives that are not consistent with providing quality health care. Costs have risen out of control, access has declined, and private insurance companies are practicing medicine for monetary gain at the expense of people's health and lives. Every day, we see more and more hoardes of people for whom health care insurance is out of reach. No where else in the world but the USA are people going into bankruptcy from health care expenses. People are dying from treatable illnesses so that CEOs and lawyers can buy more yachts.

We have to move to universal health care that does not involve private for-profit corporations.

Obamacare is a monstrocity designed to please health insurance companies.

Obamacare is a disaster because the Republicans had to get their fingers in the works. The original idea of Obamacare was perverted by the Republicans into an bastard system.

We need to get capitalism, profit, and Republicans out of health care.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:33am PT
Lituya...No waiting lines in America's system...Bull sh#t...!!!!!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:36am PT
And then wait some more to see if the insurance company denies your claim.....who do you think you're kidding with the smooth Mitch Mcconnel delivery...Take another shot at it liar....
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:40am PT
No waiting lines in America's health care system?

I'm a physician. My knee went bad from an old running injury, and I was having a lot of trouble walking. I could walk 100 yards at the most. My knee MRI showed major abnormalities of the bones around the joint, blood in the joint, and a shredded meniscus.

I saw an orthopedic surgeon who recommend surgery. The insurance company denied my medical care as an "elective" procedure. Four months of appeals, denials, appeals, and more denials. My pain became intolerable and I had to stop working. I could watch my quadriceps muscles wasting away. My surgeon recommended that I just pay $20,000 cash for the surgery rather than let my health deteriorate any further. When I said that I would pay, I had the surgery within 36 hours and I am working again.

Imagine what life is like for people who are less educated and have fewer resources.

Yeah. "No waiting lines for health care in America."
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:47am PT
And how bout the Republicans pre-existing condition scam...?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 06:53am PT
And how bout the Republicans pre-existing condition scam...?

Hey - CEOs and lawyers need more yachts! If insurance companies actually had to pay for health care, how could they afford another yacht?
perswig

climber
Nov 20, 2018 - 08:17am PT
SLR, any of that through the VA or all general public service/providers?

Dale
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 08:26am PT
SLR, any of that through the VA or all general public service/providers?
Yes, the VA, but I am under contract to not disclose any dirty laundry at the VA per a legal agreement

DO NOT confuse the VA system with a single-payer system. VA patients are generally poorly educated, dysfunctional, and their sense of entitlement knows no bounds. The VA patient population is vastly different from the general population at large.

The vast majority of veterans, most of whom are solid citizens, do not use the VA because they have a job and private health insurance, or they work for a living therefore don't qualify for VA care.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 20, 2018 - 08:49am PT
"Again, Obamacare is a monstrocity designed to please health insurance companies.
It's possible to design a single payer system with private providers of services and mixed (depending on a state) private/public administration of services that can be supported by majority of American voters and majority of American politicians.

Again, some people like young single healthy males and healthcare executive would not like it.

Again, it should not be a monopoly and should coexist with private insurance to cover better services."


Yury, I find myself more in agreement with you than not. Yes, I've heard of the waiting periods that exist in the Canadian system, and they sound awful and unacceptable. While I think a baseline level of care (however it is managed, single payer or some variation) should provide basic coverage (where to draw the line would be the challenge), it wouldn't be 'Gold' or 'Platinum' care...more like Bronze. Reasonable waiting times might be a part of such baseline care...if you want better care (including short wait times), you need to pay for it yourself.


And, importantly, somehow, some way, insurance company reimbursements and negotiations need to be extricated from the whole damn process. It's impossible to get a sense for the actual cost of healthcare due to the 'middle man' of the insurance industry.

Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 09:11am PT
Again, it should not be a monopoly and should coexist with private insurance to cover better services.
That's exactly the kind of perverted thinking that got us into the current situation.

Universal single-payer health care is the only way to go. All capitalism and private enterprise has to be eliminated from health care. We can no longer permit a tiered system where being rich enables you to get good care, while being poor means you die in the gutter from treatable diseases.

Period.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 20, 2018 - 09:28am PT
A Canadian friend (with dual citizenship) back in the 90s told me his the total of his taxes (national, province, etc) were like 50% of his pay in Canada vs. 35% in the US. But it was worth it to not have to worry about health care. I have no idea if those figures are accurate, or for whom, but that is the choice we'd have to make.

If you add up co-pays, prescriptions, office visits, etc. in the US that also takes up a good chunk of income. Pay may also be higher since the employer is not providing health care.

Our system is so entrenched it would be extremely difficult to change, even without the lobbying of the insurance co.s etc.

It would be nice if there was some type of hybrid system. Where access to healthcare was universal but we could make choices of who our provider was to keep competition and innovation in the system. I have and like Kaiser. It seems way smarter to have the "insurance" and care from the same company, so the insurer is more interested in doing what's best for your long term health. Lot's of preventative stuff is free. I went to free classes for shoulder impingement and patello femoral syndrome. Way smarter to offer a free class that teaches PT, than have someone need surgery later.

I used to think access to health care wasn't a right, until I though about prisoners. If prisoners are denied health care and they die they've been denied a right the same as food or safety. I don't know about giving everyone free health care if they do nothing to contribute, but definitely everyone should have access. Obamacare really helped in that regard.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 20, 2018 - 09:40am PT
America pays twice as much for health care as other countries. The biggest factor is so many things are overpriced, from prescriptions to surgeries. The copay I pay for things in the US can be what people in other countries may pay for the whole visit. A lot of that is due to sand bagging the insurance companies.

I feel like we should have universal healthcare (govt. insurance) but everyone goes to private providers and has a 1-40% copay. If everyone has skin in the game they will shop for the best deal and prices would come down. If everyone is involved it would work much better than some bureaucrat trying to set prices and keep up with millions of transactions.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Nov 20, 2018 - 10:14am PT
it's just that the current healthcare system isn't really free market

Y'know, I've never understood why the free market is supposed to be part of healthcare.

In the depression people in the cities were dying of malnutrition while farmers were plowing their crops under because they had no market for their crops. That's the magic of the free market at work? No thanks.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 20, 2018 - 10:20am PT
or they work for a living therefore don't qualify for VA care.

That is not true. ALL veterans have access to medical care. However if you earn income you have to pay some of it. There are 7 (I think?) tiers, I am on tier 7 so I pay some of it. I signed up for VA a couple of years ago to satisfy the Obamacare mandate. My routine care is doe through a community clinic where I also pay. I planned on using VA for catastrophic type situations.

A couple of months ago I got a debilitating pain in my side, I was thinking ruptured appendix, so I went to the emergency room at the VA. Got a CT scan and found out it was a kidney stone. Spent the night in the hospital on morphine and passed the stone overnight and avoided surgery in the morning. I braced my self for the bill when it arrived in the mail, 270 bucks.

Between the community clinic and the VA I am well covered. The care I received at the VA was very good, although I got the sense that the staff (nurses, only saw a doctor briefly) was less experienced than what I saw at Scripps hospital when my friend was in there.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 20, 2018 - 10:31am PT
That is not true. ALL veterans have access to medical care.
Thanks for clarifying. That was my impression since several of my coworkers are dealing with VA bureaucracies this week.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 20, 2018 - 10:40am PT
Actually you need 3 years of active duty to be qualified for VA, although I do not think that rule applies to Vietnam era vets

yes, service related is always covered
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Nov 20, 2018 - 10:43am PT
makes sense. i assume it would also apply to a lasting injury received on active duty?
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:27am PT
ALL veterans have access to medical care.
False

The VA has imposed an income cutoff for care. Basically, unless you have a service connected disability greater than a specified percentage, a veteran's income has to border on the poverty level to qualify for care.

Veterans like me have no ability to access VA care. I do not qualify for VA care because of my income, even though I am a partially-disabled veteran who was injured in a training accident while on active duty.

The VA is essentially for impoverished veterans, dysfunctional vets who can't keep a job, and those who have a disability that is rated greater than a specified percentage.

As I said, most veterans are functional human beings who have a job and also have health insurance. Most vets do not use VA services.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:44am PT
Former President Barack Obama said "racism" and "mommy issues," among other contributors, were limiting the country's ability to make progress on everything from education to climate change.

Obama, speaking at the Obama Foundation Summit on Monday night, said the answers already exist to solve many of the problems facing both the U.S. and the world, but that the nation was not making progress "because we are still confused, blind, shrouded with hate, anger, racism, mommy issues."

The crowd laughed following Obama's remark, which came as he was explaining why he thought less was being done to combat climate change.

Bummer
Jim Clipper

climber
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:50am PT
The mother....!

meh? What do you expect from a Hawaii guy. Barry, the island is calling you home. How about a digital branch of the presidential library, where ever the popolo are. Try come home...
Gimp

Trad climber
Missoula, MT & "Pourland", OR
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:52am PT
Sierra Ledge Rat is correct.
There are 8 priority groups in the VA system that are based what dates you served, time served, combat exposure and a variety of other factors.

If you are in a low priority group your income level and net worth play a significant factor.

Like most government programs there is a complex formula and complex slow process to determine your status in the system.
Steve
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:54am PT
False

The VA has imposed an income cutoff for care. Basically, unless you have a service connected disability greater than a specified percentage, a veteran's income has to border on the poverty level

I filled out a form and disclosed my income and assets, I am no where near poverty level. I am in tier 7, maybe they screwed up?

edit: Just started researching it and noticed this

Net Worth Information No Longer Required
In January 2015, VA eliminated the use of net worth information as a determining factor for eligibility and copayment responsibilities. VA will only consider a Veteran’s gross household income and deductible expenses from the previous year. This change makes VA health care benefits more affordable to lower- income Veterans who have no service-connected condition or other qualifying factors.

Here is an online calculator that can be used to determine if a veteran is eligible http://hbexplorer.vacloud.us/

According to the online tool the income limit is over 50k for a single veteran.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 20, 2018 - 12:14pm PT
The VA is definitely not the system on which we should base national health care.

No, no, no.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 20, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
How about Medicare for everyone, with supplemental policies for anyone willing to pay?

If yes, then how do we get there?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 20, 2018 - 12:32pm PT
I think I'd be down with that. It's a step in the right direction, anyway.

Getting the insurance industry out of the picture is a steep hill to climb, though.

I have a feeling that Medicare for all could actually fly in Congress...
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 20, 2018 - 01:35pm PT
One insurance plan to rule them all.


I'd be down too. I'd be up for medicare with a small % copay. 1-10% or so based on income with a yearly cap so people would shop for the best deals on care, and wouldn't get service unnecessarily if they have a financial stake in the decision. For example if it's free to them some people will just take the ambulance to the hospital, a $2,700 bill, instead of drive (this kind of stuff already happens). But if they paid say 5%, that's $135. If you really needed it you happily pay the $135, but if you could just drive instead it would save you $135.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
Since you gentlemen bring up the subject of Medicare, let me share a brief review of what I experienced in 2017. I'm quite positive overall.

At age 65 Americans with a work history, get to enjoy “free” medical care, thanks to Medicare.

I signed up for parts A, B, D, & supplemental insurance.

The good parts are incredible! I had knee surgery for a torn meniscus last November & the total charges for everything related to it were around $26,000.00. Other than local travel expenses & some cheap prescription drugs, I paid zero.

However!

Medicare Part A, which is hospital insurance is free to folks who qualify.

Medicare part B, which is optional health insurance costs $134.00 monthly, which is deducted from your Social Security benefit. There is also a yearly deductable of $183.00, which Medicare Part B does not cover. Also Medicare Part B does not cover all your Physician costs, so careful folks with some money also often buy:

Supplemental health insurance through an insurance company, which covers almost all, but not always all charges not-covered by Medicare part B.

My supplementary Health Insurance is $114.10 monthly.

Medicare Part D for prescription drugs costs me $26.60 monthly & is mostly a money loser for me. A Bush II Republican idea to make insurance companies some more money. If you don’t buy it & later need expensive prescription drugs & enroll, there are “huge” penalties for not having bought it when starting Medicare.

So--------for those who are still following this:

2017, I had Physician, hospital, & drug medical bills of roughly $30,000.00. (Please bear in mind I am nearly a poster-geezer for Basil Cell skin cancer & rack up some impressive charges at my Dermatologist every year.)

I paid roughly $3,500.00 to Medicare, my health & drug insurers, & paid around $300.00 for stuff not covered.

In theory the other $26,200.00 came out of money my employers & I paid in to Medicare in my 45 or so years of paying Medicare.

August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Nov 20, 2018 - 05:37pm PT
Again, Obamacare is a monstrocity designed to please health insurance companies.
It's possible to design a single payer system with private providers of services and mixed (depending on a state) private/public administration of services that can be supported by majority of American voters and majority of American politicians.

Obamacare was designed to get through congress. Maybe some day a single payer system could make it into law.

In the 90s, Dems tried to pass a universal health system that would also adress cost and it failed. The industrial health care complex was just too powerful. As were Republicans that were more interested in partisan victories than people's welfare.

Obamacare was designed to actually provide health care to millions of Americans that didn't have it. They had to pay off the insurance industry in order to do it.

Sad that this is what passes for progress in the US but it is what it is.

It took every last non-republican in the Senate to pass. Every last one of those Senators had a veto that an insurance company lobbyist could leverage.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Nov 20, 2018 - 11:17pm PT
It's irritating to hear conservatives whining about Obamacare when it was their party that sat on their ass and did nothing to help make the health care act viable...Typical chicken sh#t politics from the duck and cover republican party...
dirtbag

climber
Nov 21, 2018 - 05:41am PT
^^^100%^^^
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Nov 21, 2018 - 05:46am PT
Washington (CNN)Justice Sonia Sotomayor in an interview with CNN's David Axelrod said that Justice Brett Kavanaugh was welcomed into the Supreme Court "family" in the wake of his polarizing confirmation process.

"When you're charged with working together for most of the remainder of your life, you have to create a relationship," Sotomayor said in an "Axe Files" interview airing Saturday.
"The nine of us are now a family and we're a family with each of us our own burdens and our own obligations to others, but this is our work family, and it's just as important as our personal family.
"We've probably spent more time with each other than most justices spend, who have spouses, with their spouses," she added.
Kavanaugh, who has served since being confirmed early last month, had his confirmation thrown into doubt after a tense Senate Judiciary Committee hearing in September in which California professor Christine Blasey Ford alleged the Supreme Court nominee had sexually assaulted her when they were in high school in the 1980s. Kavanaugh denied the allegations against him.
Sotomayor said despite the contentious confirmation, she told Kavanaugh that the focus on him will settle on his actions as part of the court.
"It was Justice (Clarence) Thomas who tells me that when he first came to the Court, another justice approached him and said, 'I judge you by what you do here. Welcome.' And I repeated that story to Justice Kavanaugh when I first greeted him here," she said.
Thomas was accused of sexual harassment after being nominated in 1991 and also narrowly confirmed by the Senate.
Sotomayor, who was first confirmed to the court in 2009, also pushed back on the notion that Kavanaugh's presence cements a conservative tilt on the Court -- an institution she said is above "political terms."
"Conservative, liberal, those are political terms," she said. "Do I suspect that I might be dissenting a bit more? Possibly, but I still have two relatively new colleagues, one very new colleague, Brett Kavanaugh and Neil Gorsuch. And we've agreed in quite a few cases, we've disagreed in a bunch, But you know, let's see."
When asked modern political discourse, Sotomayor said too large of an emphasis has been put on differences rather than common "human values."
"We all have families we love, we all care about others, we care about our country, and we care when people are injured," she told Axelrod. "And unfortunately, the current conversation often forgets that. It forgets our commonalities and focuses on superficial differences whether those are language or how people look or the same God they pray to but in different ways.
"Those differences truly are not important," she added. "What is important is those human values we share and those human feelings that we share. But I worry that we forget about that too often.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 21, 2018 - 08:40am PT
""It was Justice (Clarence) Thomas who tells me that when he first came to the Court, another justice approached him and said, 'I judge you by what you do here. Welcome.'"


Well, the proof will lie in the pudding, won't it? Kavanaugh may likely have an opportunity to show whether he's truly an independent thinker, or was a carefully chosen GOP-droid to rule in Trump's favor if/when his case(s) land in front of the SCOTUS.