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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Sep 19, 2018 - 10:16am PT
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rgold. Apples and f*#king oranges pal! Read the OP! "Stop "comfortizing" routes with bolted belays!"
Stately Pleasure Dome tree rap is a descent! Not a route. That tree rap has been around as long as your precious traditionalism and is part and pacel of what you and others espouse! Climbers have rapped the SPD trees for as long as climbers have been climbing and downclimbing on that dome. Trees are the original "convenience" anchors! You have used them, I have used them, and quite possibly even the God, Jim Donini himself has used them in his hallowed and storied career. So what have I done:
I did NOT add! I replaced! I substituted metal for wood. The anchors are in roughly the same place where the original wood anchors have been for what, 150 years? Vlada Matena said it well on MP. I have not changed the nature of the downclimb nor the "serious" nature of the downclimb at all. The rap is the same as it's alway been as far as how it effects the ethics and physical reality of that downclimb. If my intent was to create a safe rap for the "barely qualified", I would, as Vlada said, ADDED COMFORTIZED ANCHORS at appropriate rope lengths. Once again, I did not add, I SUBSTITUTED! Why? Because my intent is to simply save trees. And to point out that maybe it's not ok to support all traditions, like the accepted tradition of rapping from trees. Because where is it written that everything traditional is RIGHT and JUST? The irony of all this is that I consider myself to be a traditionalist in the climbing sense. I have replaced many routes in TM because I believe in maintaining the history of climbing in the area. But now, after meeting and listening to discussions of those who created them, I feel as if all I'm doing is helping them maintain their dated and unrealistic dogmas, some of which I obviously disagree with, like the rapping of trees. Because it's plain to me that those dogmas and the enevitable change that is coming seem much more important than the reality of those action on nature.
I've tried to be a good steward in the traditional sense. I've actually spent time showing people how to walk of Stately, replaced bolts (not added) on traditional climbs, and have gathered consensus on the spot unlike many here who prothletise from some cyberspace mountaintop. And I am here to own what I do, unlike many who anonymously go about their business. I would hope that whoever chops those anchors will do so publicly.
The rap trees are a unique situation on Stately. The Reid/Falkenstein guide offers them as the FIRST option of descent, not walking off! For some reason this keeps getting overlooked by the naysayers. In orher words, there is a tradition of use. I have done nothing more then substitute bolts for trees in order to save trees. It is not my intent to "comfortize" what already exists and I have not changed the nature one way or the other on that dome. And substituting (not adding!) anchors is the best way I see to save the trees, and at the same time, change the accepted tradition of using trees as convenience anchors. Maybe the next TM guide will reflect this and ask that trees not be used. At any rate I will be up there this weekend replacing the Eunuch. About as traditional a route as you'll find although I will now do so for myself and not in the name of those who failed to protect this climb in the first place.
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Wildincognito
climber
Eastside
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Sep 19, 2018 - 10:32am PT
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Hmmm- would bolted belays make a 5 star route only 4 then with an asterisk , or the other way around?
I just always thought it was kinda cool when I summited something and there was no trace of my passing- just the ghosts.
edit-
Or should I say more/less fluttering hearts (or$$$) for the commitment level!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Sep 19, 2018 - 11:05am PT
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DMT. Thank you. What's really upsetting to me is I finally use the word f*#k only to find out that it gets "comfortized"! Now that is a true crime.........
Tut. As is the abortion of a rap he installed on Daff Dome. A rap the pitchfork and torch crew actually support. Go figure.....
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Sep 19, 2018 - 11:07am PT
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Tony, I'm well aware of the distinction between your work and Donini's post, which is why I carefully phrased my comment as "Analogous issues have arisen over on Mountain Project..." And I do think the issues of adding bolts where people have managed for some time without are analogous. As for my second post (the one with pictures), you will note that I left all value judgements to the reader and was careful to include your shots of the bark-polishing that motivated your efforts.
The fact is that I find your explanations about SPD to be persuasive, although still ultimately troubling, and (unbeknownst to you of course) have "liked" a bunch of your responses on MP. But I think the sport desperately needs countervailing voices, although I sure as hell am getting tired of being one of them, and to the extent that I continue to do it, the motivations are not very different from yours. Really, something beyond “thanks for your work” is often more than appropriate, even if in your case the thanks are justified.
My friend DMT thinks you don’t have to explain yourself. I heartily disagree. When it comes to modifying the environment, I think it is critical to expose the full reasoning process. I, and I would imagine others, have a different opinion of what you’ve done as a result of those explanations, and they form a basis for further discussions about the appropriateness of someone else’s modifications, as they will surely be used as a pretext for efforts that may seem less justified, even to you.
One of the big problems of contemporary trad climbing is anyone can go out and add bolts. There is no longer anything like a consensus about such things, and self-appointed champions of safety and convenience are free to march to their own private drummers. This can’t possibly be a good thing in the long term. Without any kind of regulating authority, all that we have are arguments based on the precedents set by others. To fail to expose their reasoning is to condemn us all to the random whims of anyone with a drill, and the asymmetry of the bolting process means that once the bolts are in, they are likely to stay or, perhaps even worse, leave the scarred landscape of bolt wars.
In view of that, I think those who add bolts to trad climbs ought to be obliged to coherently explain themselves, something you have done but which is all too rare in general.
I have more to say about your other points but will let it go at this for now.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bishop
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Sep 19, 2018 - 11:23am PT
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rgold. I too think you and I share much in common. But what I see as discussion here is so much hiding heads in sand. The climbing climate is changing and the majority dictates regardless of armchair discussion. And what I'm trying to do is mitigate between what is happening in real time and maintain a sembelance of the past. Like DMT says, we don't own anything really. But the physical reality is just that. Unfortunately the reality is your beliefs (and quite possibly mine) are now in the minority. That is the reality! And who is to say that your and my beliefs are more important than those "unqualified". Why are you and I right and they wrong? Societies dictate morals and ethics. And they change. That's the reality. I am simply standing up for what I believe and am trying to cross over from the old to the new in the best way I know how.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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Sep 19, 2018 - 11:27am PT
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Toker,
your experience is not unique.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Sep 19, 2018 - 11:27am PT
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The mountain belongs to the living. The original kids with drills would rightly be yelled off the cliffs today. If you left a messy turd of a bolt line, it will get changed, despite the lamentations of the righteous. The mountain is colossally indifferent
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2018 - 11:39am PT
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Good points all about the reality of changing times. No one owns the rock and climbers don’t want to be dictated to. I realize that I am a voice crying in the wilderness.
Fortunately, I have the means and desire to climb in areas worldwide that suit my needs. I have, for the most part, moved away from crowded areas like Yosemite and Red Rocks where comfortization is the most rampant. Dispersing to new and under exposed venues is a good thing for climbing generally and I encourage more people to try it.
As age winds my technical climbing down I’ll probably shift into a more exploratory mode but, believe me, I’ll be out doing something until the end.
Edit: I even found a still uncimbed 6,300 meter peak while I was in the Karakorum last month that HOPEFULLY is still in my pay grade for one more year. If I get up it you can be sure there won’t be any bolted belays. I haven’t carried even a hand drill on an alpine climb since Torre Egger in 1976.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 19, 2018 - 11:53am PT
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Long ago, hikers learned to climb. Now, people learn to climb and many of them hate hiking.
I love hiking and would always rather walk off than rap. Pretty sure that's a minority preference.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 19, 2018 - 12:13pm PT
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On my FAs I pre-comfortize the belays, and with very good bolts, well arranged, so that nobody else will (should) feel the need to. I just accept the inevitable and so do it "right" at the outset and eat the "hole count" (as if that's some indicator of "validity").
But comparing different climbing areas and even types of climbs, as though the expectations "should" remain the same across all climbers, is a fool's game.
But, you know, play on.
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Meech
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 19, 2018 - 12:16pm PT
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Hey friends, this is my first post here :)
Moose is actually the one who recommended I join this website. I couldn't make it through all the comments (sorry guys, short attention span) so I apologize if I'm repeating a lot of what's been said already.
Anyway, I think its super important to have ethical debates like this. I think one of the things that makes our sport really unique is that we can have conversations like this. I highly doubt athletes in basketball get to have an ethical discussion over their impact on the environment or the future of the sport...
But what I think the real problem here is a separation of the older generation of climbers and the newer generation. I'm only in my 20s, and I have had the great privileged of climbing with many partners with 20+ years of experience. I learned a lot from them, not only technique and safety, but they taught me how to treat other climbers, how to create as little of an impact as possible, and other personal ethics.
Unfortunately, I don't think many climbers of my generation have had the opportunity to learn and grow from older climbers. Is it because they don't care? Or is it because their only opportunity to learn is from the internet and the dumbasses (typically) at REI?
I dunno. But I think its important to foster a connection between the generations instead of a dichotomy. And maybe then the entire climbing community will be able to settle on a balance on issues such as "bolt or not to bolt".
That being said... I agree. Don't bolt if you can protect with gear. But also, is a 40 ft run out really reasonable if you could protect future climbers with a bolt?
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO & Bend, OR
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Sep 19, 2018 - 12:39pm PT
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Moose:
Feel free to insert the real name of your buddy in your post far-up-thread about the guy who wandered endlessly past the bolt anchors for
I RESEMBLE THAT REMARK.
C'est moi.
True?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 19, 2018 - 12:46pm PT
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I don’t understand bolting belays when there are perfectly good removeable gear placements. If the belay is shared with a standard rappel route I kind of get it, but why put in fixed gear when you don’t have to? I think minimum impact to the rock and surrounding environment should be the guiding principle. If you can’t build an anchor, learn a new skill or climb something else.
Oh, and get off my lawn ;-)
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sep 19, 2018 - 12:54pm PT
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^^^ I generally agree. But if bolting is needed, buck up and do it right.
BTW, LOL, I'm sending my dog over to your lawn.
;-)
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Trump
climber
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Sep 19, 2018 - 12:59pm PT
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We each do what we do for the reasons that we do it, and my sense is that you do that more gracefully than many of us.
I think that the history of the human condition has involved a lot of humans comfortizing the human condition, and a lot of humans complaining about what other humans do. I’m not that fussed about sleeping in a comfy bed, but some folks prefer the ground, and that’s cool.
Best all!
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Meech
Trad climber
PHX and SLC
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Sep 19, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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Moose,
Don't forget to remind me to bring my bolt kit for Epinephrine so I can bolt it into an aid ladder to piss off the old farts. Then when we're done we can chop them all to piss off the young dumb kids haha gotta make it fair!
Trump,
I would agree with you for the most part, but I feel like the "let people do what they want to do" argument here is unconvincing because installing permanent hardware on a route affects every person who climbs that route thereafter.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 19, 2018 - 01:36pm PT
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What are these forums for if not for trolling? Trolling can become a fine art in the hands of some. My advice to everyone, including fish, if you see a troll...biting is not mandatory.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Sep 19, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
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You were supposed to go inside the stately pleasure dome to drink the milk of paradise. They explained it twice in the song.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Trump
climber
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Sep 19, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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Used to be I could ride my horse wherever I durned well pleased, without all these roads and signposts pointing the way, taking all the adventure out of transportation. I don’t like that, and I don’t like people comfortizing transportation - makes it so I can’t do it the right way, on a horse.
How would we even know where the route goes nowadays, or what gear to bring, without a topo, like the ones that our favorite forum promote, the ones that pay for the comfy privilege we have of posting here in our socks? Back in my day we didn’t even have topos, or cams, or comfortized belays and forums.
Kids these days have been deprived of the true experience of rock climbing, because of our incessant human nature to comfortize our lives. Sorry about that kids.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 20, 2018 - 01:52pm PT
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I've always been a purist about climbing; but I'm also enough of a pragmatist-realist to know there will be bolted belay stances. It really has to do with growing popularity of our sport, and in may instances of several routes sharing the same belay points or ledges. If we wind up with several parties competing for the cracks necessary for placement of gear, it's not really about "comfortizing" the belay, but keeping the climbers safe. Bitch about it all you like, but leave belay/rappel bolts alone. I get more aggrieved about chopped bolts' resulting rock degradation than I do about their presence. And the fact that many of the less experienced climbers are trying to improve their skills isn't reason to deprive them of the security of fixed anchors, especially if they find themselves "over their heads" w/r difficulty of the routes. These "comfort anchors" aren't always about "comfort," but provide a safe exit from the climb.
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