Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2018 - 07:03pm PT
|
Tamara & Jan!
Thank you again for posting yet again, some of what other Jeff Lowe & Coonie Self insiders have shared with me about the ups & downs of their relationship.
I appreciate you folks attempting to calm, what has distressed me as, a "lynch-mob" reaction here, to Jeff's daughter's allegations of abuse by Connie.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2018 - 07:24pm PT
|
Edited out.
I hope you are right Fritz. I still believe that Tamara's post is out of balance, but I will delete what I wrote.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2018 - 07:47pm PT
|
Edit: this post is in response to a post that has now been deleted. I am leaving my post as it is germane to the rest of my posts.
What experience do you have with abusive relationships? My sister was married to a man who was abusive. I didn't like him, but I didn't see the abuse and my sister hid it. I didn't learn of it until after she divorced him. Many many people liked him and couldn't believe that he could abuse anyone. I also dated a woman for 4 years who is a therapist and her specialty was rape counseling and counseling women who are in abusive relationships. I have been good friends with her for more then 25 years, So I have learned a lot. I have also been in a relationship with a woman who tried to cut me off from my family and friends by spreading lies. So I have a pretty fair amount of experience with this subject.
That said..
If Jan says delete, then I will delete. I trust her opinion a whole lot more then I do yours.
|
|
Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2018 - 08:02pm PT
|
John I appreciate the tone of your response.... thank you for that. There is much more to all of this than hopefully will ever be aired here or elsewhere, as it need not be. We are neither judge nor jury.
I think, or hope, that my words have reflected this - my intentions have certainly not been to present an answer, as I don't deem myself fit to make such determinations. Have only wanted to add a dimension, as stated in my last post.
I do know that said allegations were investigated and could not be substantiated.
As far as Jeff speaking for himself, you are correct he could not "speak" but typed prolifically (and humorously) and expressed no negativity to me in regards to either Connie or the care she provided for many years. He expressed many emotions and personal matters, but that was not one of them. As I've stated, my comments are purely reflections of our conversations. I have no reason to question that they were anything but HIS truth.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2018 - 08:16pm PT
|
Fair enough Tamara. Thank you for your reply. It just struck me like you were ignoring that 5 healthcare professionals found it necessary to report possible abuse. As for no abuse being found. It is very difficult to prove this, especially if the person being abused doesn't want anything bad to happen to the abuser, which happens a lot. Thats often because there is love involved.
I will say again. I do not know what happened. If I caused you pain Tamera, then I would be happy to delete my post if you want me to. I just have a real problem when it looks to me like abuse is being swept aside. Especial towards someone who is dependent.
|
|
Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2018 - 08:34pm PT
|
John, if I ever suffer "pain" from supertopo threads, then hopefully someone will remind me (swift kick in the ass) to keep a healthy perspective ;)
Everyone is entitled to their views, their rants, and much more - ST is a forum I enjoy because it allows for all of the above.
Our perspectives are based on our experiences, so inevitably they vary. And how boring would it be if we all agreed, anyhow?!
;)
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
|
Thank you Tamara.. I was primarily thinking in terms of anyone else involved in the situation that I might have unknowingly caused pain to. I did not believe that I caused you pain as I believe that you are a tough person. You seem to know the situation more then I do, so if my post could bring unnecessary pain, then I would be happy to delete.
I do want to add that I am hoping that those who know Sonja will reach out to her. To me, posting this problem on Facebook on an open page is a kind of cry for help. I believe Jeff would have wanted the community to reach out to her. Especially those who knew the people involved.
Edit: this in no way means that I want people to take sides. I do not. I simply want to make certain that Sonja is receiving support from the community.
|
|
Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2018 - 10:05pm PT
|
John M: As you have noted, I deleted my "in your face" posts about what I believe is your one-sided posts to this thread, in hopes that you will delete yours.
Per your most recent post:
Edit: this in no way means that I want people to take sides. I do not. I simply want to make certain that Sonja is receiving support from the community.
I think you have taken sides, since you apparently believe the unfounded allegations that Sonja has made about Connie, & you are showing no sympathy to Connie, who sacrificed her own lifestyle to love & give care to Jeff for many years.
Please open your eyes to what Tamara & Jan said.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Aug 30, 2018 - 10:58pm PT
|
I edited it Fritz..
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2018 - 08:08am PT
|
I hope you are right You took the daughter’s words for fact but they are not, just emotional perception. I ignored and read through the other documents - and I just did not see much there. Connie is a yeller, is all, and Jeff eventually left on his own. +1, keeping someone diseased and wheelchair bound healthy and alive is a big deal and Connie was doing it - and it sounded like one reason she was yelling at the end is that the others taking her place were not keeping it up, neither was Jeff - ie, the O2.
|
|
zip
Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2018 - 12:06pm PT
|
No winners in a nuclear war.
This thread should be deleted.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2018 - 01:04pm PT
|
I am a friend of both Connie and Jeff and am deeply saddened that the relationship between the two ended as it did.
Jeff must be admired for the courageous way he handled the lousy hand he was dealt at the end of his life. But, based on my own observations, I admire Connie just as much for her courage and perseverance in being his primary, and sometimes sole, caregiver, for many of the last years of Jeff’s life.
Jeff required extreme levels of medical and personal care: he could do almost nothing for himself. The first time I visited Jeff, I had volunteered to give Connie a brief respite so she could go out and do some errands. I was with a medical professional and we both left amazed at how difficult it was to care for Jeff. At that time, Connie was on duty 24/7 and she looked it: frazzled, little sleep-what with alarms and warnings from medical equipment that seemed to go off constantly, and she was anxious for a bit of help so she could get a break for a couple of hours. The person I was with commented that it looked like Connie was running a hospital’s intensive care unit--all by herself.
On another occasion when Jeff was in the hospital and near death, I stayed until pretty late at night. I reflected that while I could go home and rest, Connie would stay in that grim hospital corridor indefinitely. I couldn’t believe how she was there for Jeff, day after day, night after night. To me, it demonstrated an incredible love for him.
I think it should be recognized what remarkable and selfless actions Connie took in caring for Jeff. I suspect I would have failed at such a herculean job; she succeeded and never gave up voluntarily.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2018 - 01:23pm PT
|
Great post, Rick! That very much conforms with my remembrances. Four years ago, I would spend a day a week working (at my job) for a good part of the day at Connie and Jeff's apartment, ostensibly to give Connie a little bit of a break. As it turned out, Connie almost never took advantage of it. I would see her multitasking all day long on Jeff's behalf. She was a whirlwind of activity; on the phone constantly, advocating for Jeff while various care professionals and helpers would come and go at Connie's direction. I remember feeling sorry at times for the person on the other end of the phone conversation while at the same time marveling at her strong will.
Ultimately, I couldn't work from home anymore and, regrettably, did not continue to keep up. I would never in a million years have guessed that it would have ended up like this.
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Aug 31, 2018 - 04:19pm PT
|
I was there with Connie on many nights, trying to give her some rest while I stood in for her. I can only speak of the time that I spent there, and Connie was the absolute best. She and Jeff yelled at each other a few times (in the six months I helped care for Jeff), but it was so he would do what was necessary to prolong his life. I can't imagine the stress Connie withstood--it burned me out after 6 months of twice a week taking care of Jeff. Jeff was gracious and unbelievably strong, but Connie was strong also. I can't say enough about Connie's devotion to
Jeff. As I've said before, rest in peace, Jeff. You gave it the good fight. I was honored to be able to help he and Connie in the little way I could. Connie deserves a medal for the care giving she did.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Family,..... sheesh!!
I have seen much of what lies beneath the surface of this (Jeff confided in me 5 years ago). What matters now is that Jeff is well remembered, and that his daughter and grand-daughter thrive.
Looks like Connie will do ok.
Hopefully not much more agro.
Metanoia is a moving film. Perhaps best amended by simply adding when he died,..
|
|
oreo19
climber
|
|
I forgave my father and told him that many times. He struggled to forgive himself, but he knew I forgave him. We discussed this many times. In fact, I never really felt anything but love for him. He was my dad, after all, and you only get one dad. I’m grateful Val got to spend over 8 years getting to know her grandpa, and she is mourning the loss of him as well. She told me she’s happy for him today because he’s in a better place and no longer suffering, yet she had a very hard time during his passing and slept outside with him so she could be there with him when he died on his last night, until the sprinklers turned on around 4 am because she was in the grass. She loved him very much.
It’s very difficult to grieve “normally” given the circumstances but I’m doing my best, as is my daughter.
Thanks to all for your support and love for my dad, as well as the shared memories.
Love Sonja
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
giving birth to someone isn't parenting. Jeff admits his mistakes in the movie Metanoia.
Sonja, I am hoping the best for you and your daughter. We are all very sorry for your loss. You have a place here in this tribe if you want it, and can stand the prickliness. Climbers tend to say whats on their mind. ;-)
|
|
oreo19
climber
|
|
I agree and was only responding to a post that said something along the lines of Sonja will never forgive her dad. I told him I forgave him because he felt guilty but also told him many times he didn’t need to feel guilty and that I didn’t resent him for anything. I’m a parent too and am not perfect by any means. Luckily my daughter still loves me anyway.
People can say whatever awful things they want about me, and anything I say will definitely be used against me so I shouldn’t even respond but it’s hard not to. I was my dad’s biggest advocate. It’s pretty terrible to say he was perfectly healthy and looking forward to a private room and then moved close to me and Val and a week later died, so who took better care of him... implying that I’m responsible for him dying in some way? Who says that to a daughter that just lost their father? I had to fight for weeks to get him that private room at a decent place and it was devastating that I barely got to spend any time with him once he finally got there. I am going to do my best to ignore the hurtful things being said about me because I enjoy reading all the stories and wonderful things about my dad which are mixed in with the negative things said by people who only just met him a month ago. It’s very hurtful though, I am a real person after all and I’m having a hard enough time as is because we were very close and my daughter was also very close to her grandpa. As anyone with children knows, it hurts just to see them in pain so right now my heart is completely broken for both myself and for Val. We really miss him.
One last thing is it is a fact that Connie abused my dad, and continued to do so even in these last few months. She had to be escorted out of the nursing home by their staff. Verbal abuse is still abuse, in my opinion, but there was physical abuse too. She admitted to punching him and my dad reported that she once threatened him with a butcher’s knife. My dad showed an incredible amount of strength in choosing to stand up for himself, especially given the circumstances, and he wanted people to know. He tried to tell everyone himself earlier this year but not as many people paid attention. It’s very hard for me to understand why some people don’t believe my dad but that’s neither here nor there. My dad was very clear with Connie that she was no longer to represent him personally or speak on his behalf as he wanted nothing more to do with her. My dad said to Connie
“I hope you will finally understand the damage you caused me with your abuse, Connie . As I told you more than once during your long screaming diatribes, I would rather be dead than trapped with you.” Now he is gone and I truly hope that people stop defending Connie and remember my dad for the person he was. He deserves to finally be free of his abuser.
|
|
Jim Clipper
climber
|
|
Maybe, ... if you feel low, look up at the snow capped mountains on a cold, clear winter morning. Your dad might be there too. Never give up.
Condolences to everyone close to him. Thanks for sharing some of his journey.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
a week later died Nature wins in the end. Getting older means more death and one common denominator I've experienced is questioning medical care at the very end. Should have, could have, did I do this wrong, etc. I don't think it matters. The end result is always the same. You have to act and make difficult decisions - but there is really no way to know, the body is too complicated, and everyone dies differently.
Seems possible to see the good Connie did w/o condoning an abusive dark side, which is what I'm reading here. Nobody appears to be taking sides. Jeff also said here, 3ish months ago "Connie worked heroically for years and we gave each other lots of love.", you can click on his profile up-thread.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!