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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jul 31, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
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Ksolem! Per your remark:
Fritz,
Stimulating the economy by lowering taxes is not about stimulating consumer spending. It's about increasing production.
Whether we love or hate the Trump tax-cuts, we will all enjoy, or suffer those cuts.
As many know, since various Republican politicians said: the reason for the tax cut, was to keep their political donations coming from the very-wealthy & large corporations.
I suspect: we will see a “huge” increase in our national debt & a big down-turn in the stock market, after all the BS settles out.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 31, 2018 - 09:02pm PT
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Alter it, nothing changes. Lower it, nothing changes. Lower it again, nothing changes.
Lots of things change. The number is a percentage, not a fixed value. GDP changes. How people manage their money in response to rates changes. For example when cap gains are high people let their money sit invested to defer the taxes for a sunnier day. When rates were 90% those people got their money out of the country.
Yeah, Davies is a real shill.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 31, 2018 - 09:19pm PT
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^^^^ I so love simplistic explanations of complex economics that no two economists can agree on.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 31, 2018 - 09:33pm PT
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The fallacy Kris is that the only way production gets increased is in response to demand
When demand goes up, prices go up way before production catches up. Supply is the elastic that connects production and demand. Say a company is producing x number of widgets, and people are buying those widgets, but not everyone who wants one can because the price is high. If the company could increase production, thus lower the price, they could sell a whole lot more widgets. They'd be buying their materials for less by buying more, they might save on production by spending some of their new revenues on modernizing, they'd have to hire people.
This is a perfect example of production leading consumption.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 31, 2018 - 09:47pm PT
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that's the only point he even tries to make with his graphs.
Could it be that's because that is the point he was trying to make?
He's not my hero economist, I'll stick to Friedman and Sowell for that spot. But his bio shows quite a career, with a lot of accomplishments.
He's not saying revenue's don't change, he's saying that they stay about the same as a percentage. His graphs cover 1954 to 2010. GDP, and therefor tax revenues, increased wildly over those years. The rate of increase and even periods of stagnation and negative growth of gdp changed constantly. So tax revenues as dollars went up and down too, but continued to hang in there around 15-20%.
Unless you think he made up his numbers, I don't, then the data speaks for itself.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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I asked Looking at those charts,
it shows average marginal income tax rate being 40% or higher
ever since 1978.
Please advise.
Kris,
I asked how it's possible that the AVERAGE marginal income tax rate could be at least 40% every year since 1978.
The answer is, since in the very next chart the TOP marginal rate in many of those years was 30-36%,
it's not possible for the average rate to be higher than the top marginal rate.
For the author to have made that big of an obvious error speaks volumes about the rigor of their work.
Additionally, the charts do not include what would be more useful. Corporate tax rates should be compared to corporate tax revenue, not total taxes. Capital gains rates should be compared to capital gains revenue. Obviously capital gains revenues dropped a lot when Bush jr dropped the rates. Soc Sec & Medicare rates should be compared to revenue for those programs. The charts are also not adjusted for the takeover of America by the corporacrazy. Which would mean adjusting for the changes in income inequity.
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dirtbag
climber
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This thread is largely a kinder, gentler political circle jerk among folks who are mostly on the same political plane.
You want to create a bridge with the Fox new junkies crowd? Sorry...waste of time.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Fox news , your drive-thru junk food news source serving over 8 billion sh#t sandwiches a day..Bridge that gap with facts and critical thinking...? Maybe...?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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LA Unified just announced that 25% of high school students dropped out last year. What hope
is there for those people, or us having to burden that load of ignorance and indolence?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Yeah...Good luck discussing climate change or any other semi-complex issue with that kind of MAGA mindset....But i'll listen , for the 100th time , why they should be allowed to walk around with a holstered 9 mil in Home Depot ...
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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why they should be allowed to walk around with a holstered 9 mil in Home Depot ...
Because that's the law.
Fight to change those laws.
Climate change? It's not a big issue for most Americans. Part of the problem is there's not much we can do about it. And even if the US went "all in" to clean the environment, it wouldn't matter until all the emerging economies commit to the same.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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it wouldn't matter until all the emerging economies commit to the same
..and could use/purchase our developed techniques, methods, hardware towards sustainable energy, mobility, food, just to name a few resources...
Why wouldn't we want to be the leader of sustainability in a physically changing world/planet? Just because the $$ might not be seen in the near future?
edit: Had to add 'could' so my frikkin sentence makes sense
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Back to the damn graphs one last time.
The answer is, since in the very next chart the TOP marginal rate in many of those years was 30-36%,
it's not possible for the average rate to be higher than the top marginal rate.
There is the one mistake I found. The last graph is not a marginal rate. It's the top bracket tax rate. I saw that instantly, without noticing the incorrect caption, because the lines are flat, not reacting to anything. And even at a glance, if you know the history of personal Federal income tax rates, you'll see what the line on the graph is. His bad, my bad. But it's not relevant to the point, which is a very simple one that I find interesting. That's all. No big political point, although people making tax policy might want to know it.
The idea that the rates for each revenue stream should be compared to it's individual contribution to the whole also, imo, misses the point. The graphs are historical, there's no speculation. From 1954 to 2010 the various tax rates moved around a lot. Despite all these changes, revenues in total, as a percent of the economy, did not change by much.
You mention cap gains in the Bush Administration. Of course cap gains taxes represent, typically, about .5% of revenues, about 5% of personal income taxes paid. And within that number, revenue from gains went up during the Bush years. I think it's about 25%. When the rates are up, people with invested money leave it there. When the rates go down, they realize their gain and pay the lower taxes of the day.
It might be interesting to break down revenues according to the rates for each stream, but it misses his point.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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From a Jan. '18 Pew poll.
Americans' top priority:
Climate Change came in 18th.
Among the Dems, it came in fifth.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 15, 2018 - 10:58am PT
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bridges need solid footings, stop lying & adhere to the original rules set in writings of the founders; The Constitution.
or
Adopt this schmuck as our great leader, & follow like lemmings into the darkness of the world wide Kleptocracy.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Aug 15, 2018 - 11:49am PT
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Hitler-"By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise."
"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed."
"Success is the sole earthly judge of right and wrong."
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