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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:44pm PT
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SusanA- thanks for typing that out.
Micronut-
Why are you asking US why this makes YOU uncomfortable?
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
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Have we gotten to a point where the opinion of the majority is outweighed by the oversensitivity of the minority
Yes. Or we’d still have separate drinking fountains, segregated schools and you get the picture.
The challenge is the roll out of new laws that address serious inequalities. It usually takes time and some awkward implementation steps until we (mostly) accept a new normal. What comes to mind is the little Black girl being escorted to school by federal marshals or state police when schools were no longer segregated. The start of something so impactful often starts out on a rough road.
I think you are sincere in your concerns and fears but I believe that given time they will be as unfounded as the beliefs that integration, interracial marriage or who gets to sit at the front of the bus became a sorry stain on our history.
Susan
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jun 11, 2018 - 09:01pm PT
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Why are you asking US why this makes YOU uncomfortable
Well, I see supertopo as a unique source of civil discourse. I nearly always stay away from any of the political threads because of the consistent polarism and general meanness, but thought of this as an interesting crowd to pose a question.
I am all for safe places for the LGBTQ or gender neutral folks to use the bathroom....and assume that a third bathroom or single, small private bathrooms that have no gender would be an ideal situation.
But what many of you are missing here is my initial discomfort with the premise that the gym says it wants to make "everybody feel comfortable" but I guarantee there are large amount of people who will feel comfortable having the opposite sex in their close private space where they shower and change.
I was posing the question to see if there are others who agree or if I am really just missing something here.
Many folks obviously quickly went to the typical knee-jerk response to a question like this but if they truly read my post or thought about what I'm getting at it might be helpful for me to understand the new landscape/the new norm. Which is often broad sweeping implementation of law/behavior for a few over the desires of the mini. Which is not necessarily always a bad thing but something that warrants discussion.
Thanks SC seagoat. Nice points.
SusanA thanks for your lengthy reply, I think you're a bit off base in some of your reasoning and I'd love to take it up with you but I'm typing on my phone right now and it's kind of tough. Maybe I'll have an opportunity to respond later.
Scott
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 11, 2018 - 09:58pm PT
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Meanwhile the equation to racial separation is also off mark. Unless you want to use the same sweeping logic to defend the rights of pedophiles and zoophiles. Aren't they being discriminated against....
Ugh.
By the way, if anyone cared to read the law, employers must take measures to make the Micronuts comfortable as well, to include single locking stalls and alternating shower times.
Would that make you feel better?
Does it make you uncomfortable to know that before that sign went up you could be sharing that very private space with a man who identifies as a man but happens to like men?
Because you most likely were, and I’ll assume it does.
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IntheFog
climber
Mostly the next place
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Jun 11, 2018 - 10:15pm PT
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Micro, if it's any consolation, part of your reaction seems to be channeling Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes. He pointed out that phrases such as "everyone should feel safe" are often used "to cover and apologize for the power to make a part of the community uncomfortable by a change." Holmes thought covering up and apologizing was dangerous. He believed it was better to admit that choosing a rule/law/policy has a tragic side: All rules, no matter how good, hurt someone. In this case, as you point out, it's literally impossible to for the gym to make "everyone" feel safe. Whatever bathroom rule the gym picks, somebody -- either trans person or traditionalist -- will feel uncomfortable or unsafe.
PS It's easy to forget that the point of rules is to make some people uncomfortable by requiring them to do something they would not otherwise do, such as let trans women use the women's room.
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Jun 11, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
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Even if the law created the situation, somebody is asking about their own feelings.
micronut, I appreciate that you may be sincerely trying come to an understanding but your words showed a real lack of regard for the (mostly) compassionate motives behind these changes. I apologize for the aggressive tone in my initial response.
Surely you know that in the early days of desegregation many whites were sincerely "uncomfortable" around blacks. I know that this is not exactly the same situation, but there is much in common. Do you understand why they felt so uncomfortable?
It's understandable you want to protect your daughter. There ARE a lot of creeps out there! But the few that try to take advantage of a shared bathroom probably won't get away with it for long. And like somebody already said, the REAL creeps are far worse than some peeping tom in the next stall. The creeps in positions of trust and authority are the real problems. I would worry more about them first.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Jun 11, 2018 - 10:18pm PT
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I feel more threatened by bald christian types who ride dirt bikes and destroy the desert.
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IntheFog
climber
Mostly the next place
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Jun 11, 2018 - 10:25pm PT
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PPS Yes, pedophiles are being discriminated against. So what? Not all discrimination is bad. The point of law is to discriminate against people who do things "we" don't want them to do.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jun 11, 2018 - 10:38pm PT
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I feel more threatened by bald christian types who ride dirt bikes and destroy the desert.
I'm not bald. I identify as as having a full head of hair. I know my my truth. And I feel your microagression. This thread no longer feels safe......
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Jun 11, 2018 - 10:42pm PT
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You could choose to grow up and realize that your "discomfort" and fears are not actually based in reality. Tons of people were discomforted by the end of segregation. Somehow white women were not raped willy nilly just because blacks could share a lunch counter, a bus seat, or a school building.
This constant equating potential nudity with "indecency and OMG sex" is really pretty silly. If the thought of a coed locker area would terrify your kids, then you have failed in a major way. Do them an enormous favor and don't pass your hang ups on to them.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jun 11, 2018 - 10:52pm PT
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Saying "its the law" is sort of dodging the question. Whether management made the decision themselves, or their lawyers did, or the state legislature or courts did... it doesn't answer the question of whether its the best solution to making a tiny minority (1/3rd of 1 percent) more comfortable. Meanwhile the equation to racial separation is also off mark. Unless you want to use the same sweeping logic to defend the rights of pedophiles and zoophiles. Aren't they being discriminated against.... "its just like separate drinking fountains".
Even in feminist literature the male organ is at times portrayed as a weapon of assault and humiliation... Society has traditionally had separate locker-rooms is light of this. Now a minority has decided for us. "Legally" a 6'4" 300 lb man can go into the women's locker-room with his dick a swinging. IMHO this isn't a step toward equality but an indication of the lost decadence of modern society.
Good points Rockermike.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jun 11, 2018 - 10:56pm PT
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Jun 11, 2018 - 10:15pm PT
Micro, if it's any consolation, part of your reaction seems to be channeling Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes. He pointed out that phrases such as "everyone should feel safe" are often used "to cover and apologize for the power to make a part of the community uncomfortable by a change." Holmes thought covering up and apologizing was dangerous. He believed it was better to admit that choosing a rule/law/policy has a tragic side: All rules, no matter how good, hurt someone. In this case, as you point out, it's literally impossible to for the gym to make "everyone" feel safe. Whatever bathroom rule the gym picks, somebody -- either trans person or traditionalist -- will feel uncomfortable or unsafe.
PS It's easy to forget that the point of rules is to make some people uncomfortable by requiring them to do something they would not otherwise do, such as let trans women use the women's room.
Thank you InTheFog. Maybe the most thoughtful and helpful post yet. I will get over the way this makes me feel "Uncomfortable"...... it's just my style, I've never been much of a complainer......I was just hoping to hear some other points of view.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 11, 2018 - 10:56pm PT
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the lost decadence of modern society.
Sorry, but wtf does that even mean?
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Jun 11, 2018 - 11:02pm PT
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I was wondering if he meant decency rather than decadence. When I think of decadence I think of chocolate cake.
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SusanA
Sport climber
Bay Area
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Jun 11, 2018 - 11:10pm PT
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I noticed that you responded positively to the post that mentioned "6'4" 300 lb man in the women's locker-room with his dick a swinging. "
So maybe we have some common ground after all ;)
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Jun 11, 2018 - 11:46pm PT
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Hey Micronut, you are a brave soul to bring this up on the taco.
I personally have no problem with the law protecting a small minority of folks who want to use the bathroom of their choosing, but what irks me is the added sign with the big explanation. I think that large poster is virtue signalling by the gym and serves to make many people uncomfortable. I think the state of CA should hire a marketing firm to bring about a public service campaign whereby public bathrooms can be identified as safe without being so... in your face. Maybe a sticker with a picture of a rainbow-colored thumbs up symbol that you stick directly on the bathroom M/F sign. A small URL at the bottom of the sticker can direct the curious to a simple explanation of the law and why it is in place. And maybe after a few years, everyone will get used to the idea and there will be no need for stickers- it will just be assumed everyone knows the drill.
It will not be easy at first, but I think it will work out for you and your family. It will take some getting used to, but that uncomfortable feeling will go away. Mostly, I'm guessing you will notice no difference in what actually goes on in public bathrooms because of the law or the signs. Let's revisit this thread in a couple of years and see if you feel more at ease.
As an aside, I had a crash course in "anything goes" bathrooms back in 1991 as a freshman in the dorms at UC Santa Cruz. Our floor was co-ed and the hallway bathroom had multiple crapper stalls and showers stalls that were for any gender. It was weird and kinda fun at the same time. And after a couple of days it was just a bathroom that stunk after someone took a dump. Mind you this was Porter College which was the "grooviest" of all the dorms at UCSC, and this set-up was not the norm for the rest of the dorms on campus.
What has made me "uncomfortable" my whole life is using public bathrooms that don't give you a bit a privacy - like a small divider panel between urinals. I've never liked open showers like they have at gyms. I won't use them regardless of what kind of plumbing the person next to me has. And I could not even dream of going #2 with 15 other persons sitting down in a line of crappers with no walls in between like they have at military boot camps. I'd sooner flee to Canada.
Anyway, I think you are right to recoil from the big poster because it is really just making a big deal over something that is not that big a deal. But it is a big deal to a very small number of folks, which mathematically still means it should be no big deal for the rest of us. I'm hoping the uncomfortable feeling will melt away for you in due time.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Jun 12, 2018 - 12:27am PT
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I get it. I have a 9 yr old daughter and she and Mom recently found themselves on an unplanned walk through a nudist beach and my 9 year old was a bit taken back and not happy. I thought it was a funny story. As an adult I could care less but around kids.... I don't know why they put up the sign in the first place.
I personally have no problem with the law protecting a small minority of folks who want to use the bathroom of their choosing, but what irks me is the added sign with the big explanation. I think that large poster is virtue signalling by the gym and serves to make many people uncomfortable.
Just saw the post above and that was what I was struggling to explain/ understand. Its an unnecessary conflict in my opinion.
Sheesh...
S....
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SuperTopo on the Web
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because you've probably never had a close relationship with an individual who was out as non-cis and so the whole notion represents a deep and intrinsic unknown on a personal level. 
Let us know!