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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 18, 2018 - 10:36am PT
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A difficult problem. 4.5 hours does not tell how long was the wait after the Sheriff gave the order to mobilize. The Sheriff hesitated till he had confirmation from "professionals" that the injuries warranted a helivac. Perhaps a review of this protocol for a faster response time - but no, it wasn't the governments "fault." With the gov., it's usually going to be about money.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 18, 2018 - 12:18pm PT
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Not surprising that our right wing resident kooks lap it up as something "holding America back" rather than making it a healthier place to live. Blaming the victims for seeking and getting redress.
That's the rub. When I get injured climbing, am I a "victim?"
John
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Trump
climber
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May 18, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
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It’s a risky thing stepping out your front door in the morning . Once you choose to voluntarily do that, all bets are off - whatever happens is on you!
Seriously, a lawsuit because an uninsured motorist crashed into you?! What are you stupid - you didn’t know driving a car was dangerous or something? Hea, we’ve got this thing all figured out.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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May 18, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
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The Sheriff hesitated till he had confirmation from "professionals" that the injuries warranted a helivac.
Largo, from what I was told, which I regard as a reliable source although must at this point be treated as hearsay, about two hours went by before the sheriff's office had the call in their hands. Supposedly they were prompt with setting a rescue in place once they knew of it, having a chopper on scene in two and half hours from contact.
I think some prior posts get to the heart of the issue: Was the 911 dispatcher's handling of the emergency reasonable and within internal protocols?
Imagine this: you are chainsawing logs in your backyard and cut into your femoral artery. You pull out your cell phone and dial 911, the (THE) agency appointed and trained to handle emergencies. The dispatcher calls a social work agency to check up on you. You die. Does the government agency just walk away on the premise of "Hey, chainsaws are dangerous?"
Seems to me that 911 in an area that oversees a mountain that kills a climber more years than not should be trained to always pass a mountaineering injury to the sheriff.
Although I don't regard this as pertinent to the questions at hand, I was told that the victim was climbing with a whippet and had no ice axe. In my thinking, climbing Hood without an axe is irresponsible. It makes me mad that rescues are needed for accidents that could and should be prevented.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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May 18, 2018 - 02:05pm PT
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A deeper concern is the implications of a successful 'failure to rescue' suit could have for bystanders, passersby, climbers in other teams and really anyone in the vicinity of any accident, anywhere, at any time.
Is there a duty to rescue? Is a rescue an entitlement? Should the public be spending sometimes millions to try to find and rescue lost folks in the wild lands?
I don't regard this as a "failure to rescue" suit. 911 has one and only one job, to contact the appropriate resources when a call comes in. If my kid just drank poison, I expect to be put through to the poison control center. If I'm being stalked at the park, I expect to be put through to the police. If fire breaks out at my home, I expect to have the fire department summoned, even if I stupidly started my own fire. Having a fall emergency sent to the nearest ski lodge is not acceptable.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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May 18, 2018 - 02:19pm PT
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This is insane,
Just ban all climbing
Problem solved
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 18, 2018 - 02:57pm PT
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the victim was climbing with a whippet
I’ve posted a picture of a guy climbing Hood with a Golden Retriever.
Both appeared quite competent although the guy had a hard time keeping up.
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Trump
climber
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May 18, 2018 - 03:37pm PT
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Once we train the computers and robots to do all the grunt work we’ll have more time to work out the answers to these important lawyerly questions.
Or maybe we’ve decided that we already do have the time to invest on it. Hope my kids don’t sue me for misusing my time here instead of investing it all in them!
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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May 18, 2018 - 04:03pm PT
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I believe people might have a better mind set if they knew that rescue was not an option. That should limit the number of people willing to undertake a particular endeavor. It's a big "should" though. We've all done stuff with varying levels of difficulty and remoteness. You do that enough and you understand the math of what you may be getting yourself into. There are a lot of people without the benefit of that experience or how are dumb enough to believe that they can squeak their way out of anything.
Still, accidents can and will happen, and when they do, it's good to have someone who can come and save your bacon. About 20 yrs. ago a buddy and I did the SE Face of Clyde Minaret. Had an uneventful ascent but had a poor (i.e., inaccurate) description of the descent. About 50 ft. into it, my buddy pulls a block off into his lap and lands on a ledge about 10 ft. below. Really lucky he didn't ride the block the whole way down. This was way before iphones or ubiquitous cell phones, but I just happen to have mine. Turns out when we call 911, it takes them a few hours to figure out who has jurisdiction over our rescue (I know because they told me that). As a result, we had to spend a really long, cold night (especially for my friend, who had a broken pelvis) on Clyde before they could pluck us off the following morning.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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May 18, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
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I just call the embassy on accident from a sat device. Nothing like helicopters and a bunch of special forces guy showing up while you are eating oatmeal in the jungle.
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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
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Yeah ....
People think in the mountains and remote areas you just dial 911 and they come running immediately.
There's a rescue team in a closet hanging there and they come to life immediately running out the door .... lol.
Go work a real technical rescue sometime from the very start of the first 911 call and you'll all the hidden stuff that goes on
that people never actually hear about nor see to actually make the rescue even start to happen.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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May 18, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
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^^^ Werner would know!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 18, 2018 - 08:44pm PT
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Dingus is on the right track.
It's not simple. Do you -- yeah, you -- think that if you run into trouble on a climb you should expect help to arrive within x minutes of pulling your cell phone out?
If you do, how much are you willing to pay for that security?
Rescue isn't free. So, to my mind, this debate should be about whether climbing rescues should be a taxpayer-funded benefit available to climbers, or not.
We all, even the most conservative small-government enthusiasts among us, believe that there are some things that should be taxpayer-funded. If someone is breaking in to your home, you expect that the police will race in with sirens blaring and lights flashing. Ditto for your local fire department.
So the question isn't "should the government provide any services", but rather "what services should the government provide."
Is it reasonable for me to expect you to pay whatever it costs to pull me off Mt. Whatsit if I get in trouble? Or should I accept that climbing Mt. Whatsit is a choice I made freely, and that it would be unreasonable to expect you to pay whatever it costs to bail me out if things go south?
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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May 19, 2018 - 06:05am PT
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This is an incredibly slippery slope.
Ban all climbing.
Rescue is a privilege, not a right!
There is an assumption of risk we all must accept.
Don’t go climbing if you cannot accept that risk.
We are so F’ed.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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May 19, 2018 - 06:57am PT
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Personally, I never felt entitled to a rescue by the government (or any third party) when I went climbing. Now I'm thinking maybe the government shouldn't even be in the rescue business. Don't they have a system of private insurance (perhaps associated with membership in climbing organizations), in some European countries, that pays rescue costs? If you want the privilege of being rescued by anyone but friends or family when you go climbing, get a job and pay the insurance. Of course, such a solution would require a major overhaul of the legal framework in the US.
Edit to add: I'm thinking something like a private corporation assumes responsibility for the rescue. Costs and profits are paid through insurance. If necessary, the government could cooperate by renting out infrastructure, etc. but in no way should it be held accountable for a failed rescue. This way the government could even make money on rescues instead of spending everybody's tax money.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 19, 2018 - 11:23am PT
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Privatize rescue? Look at our medical system to see how well that worked out.
YOSAR is primarily manned by climbers. I suspect the pros on YOSAR spend as much time rescuing hikers as they to climbers. Expecting once a year hikers to buy insurance is ludicrous. Maybe a rescue insurance mandate, no insurance, no hiking. Pretty sure that is not going to work.
Society subsidizes many aspects of life, it is part of living in a civilized society. Parks, roads, police, and fire are the obvious.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 19, 2018 - 11:36am PT
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But should taxpayers subsidize foolishness or ineptitude?
If somebody requires a rescue due to stupidity shouldn't he be willing to pony up?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 19, 2018 - 11:39am PT
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If somebody requires a rescue due to stupidity shouldn't he be willing to pony up?
Exactly. That’s why they’ll give you a hefty bill in Europe if you don’t have insurance.
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