Climbing fatality & lawsuit for failure to rescue quickly

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Messages 1 - 64 of total 64 in this topic
Scott McNamara

climber
Tucson, Arizona
Topic Author's Original Post - May 17, 2018 - 06:53am PT
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2018/05/17/family-of-us-climber-who-died-claims-911-rescue-was-delayed/23436018/
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 17, 2018 - 07:04am PT
Imagine how much better the emergency rescue response in Clackamas County could be if the county had $10,000,000 less to work with.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
May 17, 2018 - 07:10am PT
Uh -yeah. I'm guessing they lose.

4 hours for a remote, high- altitude helicopter rescue sounds pretty darn fast to me. If his injuries were that traumatic there's no guarantee a faster rescue would have saved him.

Sorry they are obviously grieving-but this is not the answer.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 17, 2018 - 07:10am PT
That lawsuit is going nowhere, sovereign immunity.

https://rizklaw.com/sovereign-immunity-and-the-oregon-tort-claims-act/

Filing an injury claim against the State of Oregon can be a challenge. Even if your claim is successful, if you have been injured in an accident in a state owned building or suffer harm due to the actions of a state employee acting in the scope of his or her duties, your compensation may be limited.

As with cases involving the Federal Government, the Oregon State Government is entitled to what is known as “sovereign immunity” regarding matters of liability. Many of our laws are derived from British Common Law. Historically, under the doctrine of “sovereign immunity,” you were not permitted to sue the king. In modern times, there is a general rule that you cannot sue the government, unless the government says you can, and every state has passed its own set of laws (referred to as a “Tort Claims Act”).

Liability Limits under the Oregon Tort Claims Act
The Oregon Tort Claims Act limits the types of lawsuits that may be filed against the state and the circumstances in which they can be brought.

Under the Oregon Tort Claims Act, you may file a claim if:

An injury or death was caused by a slip and fall or other forms of negligence where the government was at fault.
You were injured in an auto accident due to the actions of a government employee who was carrying out his or her duties, or the vehicle was part of a ridesharing agreement.
The actions of a government agency or employee damaged or destroyed your property.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
May 17, 2018 - 07:31am PT
Where is the responsibility?

Our predisposition with blame has destroyed it.

I broke my back in November motocrossing. Tracks fault? Bike's fault? Disability compensation?

NO !

It was my fault. I did something inherently dangerous (and will continue to do so) and paid a price.

The family in this case is distraught, however that does not justify this pathetic attempt at financial gain.
WBraun

climber
May 17, 2018 - 07:35am PT
First cause is climber engaged in a dangerous activity in a remote location.

Anything happening after that is a domino effect by that first cause.

The first cause is the sole responsibility.

What if the helicopter crashed, or a rescuer got severely injured or killed .....?
Gunkie

Trad climber
Valles Marineris
May 17, 2018 - 07:54am PT
AOL still exists?
John M

climber
May 17, 2018 - 08:36am PT
Y'all are stuck on first cause. Imagine it a different way. Imagine the sheriff waited 3 days before helping. Would you then be pissed at the sheriff if the weather was good and there was no other reason to wait?

4 hours doesn't seem that long unless you are the family that lost someone.

This in no way means that I believe that the sheriff did anything wrong. I don't. The sheriff has a tough job. He/She doesn't have unlimited funds or unlimited helicopter time. He decided to wait for confirmation from a professional on the scene. Thats the reality.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 17, 2018 - 08:45am PT
I got rescued by the sheriff’s buddy, long after I watched an Army Huey fly right over me en route to a nearby peak. I could be rich now! The funny part is they actually tried to collect on me, a card carrying Washington State Mountain Rescue member. I called up the head of WA Mt Rescue and he said “FUGGETABOUTIT! - I’ll take care of those hillbillies!” LOL
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 17, 2018 - 08:54am PT
Lawsuits are an American institution.....just look where they got Trump!
Bargainhunter

climber
May 17, 2018 - 10:08am PT
I'm amazed that AOL still exists!

Dumb golddiggers are everywhere. I hope they get countersued for malicious use of process.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 17, 2018 - 10:12am PT
AOL and Yahoo merger, reunion of the has-beens. verizon owns them and is apparently making money from web marketing

https://blog.returnpath.com/oath-combine-yahoo-aol-email-infrastructures/

Oath, Inc., a Verizon company that owns AOL and Yahoo, announced earlier last week that it will gradually merge its Yahoo and AOL email infrastructures. This announcement comes as no surprise given Oath’s formation in April 2017. Specifically, the consolidation process includes MX management, filtering, and data/reporting. Oath will begin by managing AOL traffic using Oath MX records.

Note: Even though AOL traffic will be rerouted to Oath MXs, the user email interfaces will not change for those with Yahoo and AOL addresses.

Oath has not yet committed to a completion date given the size and complexity of this cutover. We are working closely with our AOL and Yahoo partners to ensure Return Path customers receive timely, relevant information to minimize email program disruption.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
May 17, 2018 - 10:14am PT
Apparently he was not roped up. Did he even have a proper ice axe? I saw one of those ski-pole arrest apparatuses in his pack - made me think he did not have an axe. How else do you fall so far where he was?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
May 17, 2018 - 10:25am PT
Totally lame lawsuit and I hope it is dismissed forthwith.

Policy wise, there are really three avenues to prevent or redress negligence. First, high levels of regulation and government enforcement with limited rights of individual relief (think EU), Second, individual access to tort relief (think U.S.), third, nothing- people are hurt/killed with no recourse (lots of places). In our system we have to take the legitimate lawsuits with the frivolous. Anyone can file a lawsuit; however, many are dismissed or settled for not enough money to make it worth while.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 17, 2018 - 11:57am PT
One simple solution would be to drop all PI attorneys off of a high rock, just high enough for the fall to not to be instantly fatal, and then let the universe sort it out.

Oh, wait, we'd have to keep clearing out the base area to make room for the endless waves of more and more and more.

Okay, sorry, not a simple solution after all.

At least I tried.



On a serious note, I am truly sorry for the family! I can certainly understand their desire to see it "made right." Sadly, there is no "right" in this circumstance, and a lawsuit isn't going to accomplish anything at all, imo.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 17, 2018 - 12:41pm PT
Time to check out Bonfire Of The Vanities again.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 17, 2018 - 01:42pm PT
One simple solution would be to . . .

Classic Republican solution, whatever is easiest for him is best for society

Watch last weeks 60 Minutes story on how chemical companies are killing people with obviously defect products. Maybe the CEOs of these companies need to be dropped off a cliff too?

https://www.cbs.com/shows/60_minutes/video/PxBkIQCsV7qJdclqxwBRzAdc1Pi_av_F/gynecological-mesh-the-medical-device-that-has-100-000-women-suing/

Story would never have been exposed unless lawyers pursued it.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 17, 2018 - 02:53pm PT
ontheedge (who I believe is a lawyer) and Werner for the win. Madbolter for the lose. People seem to get bent out of shape by warning labels on ladders but either don't know or forget that many of the consumer safety benefits that they enjoy (such as cars that don't explode on impact or pharmaceuticals with really gnarly side effects) are the product of litigation. Be careful what you wish for.

Back on topic, I agree that this suit will be short lived. Dangerous activity, remote area, voluntary assumption of the risks associated with the activity. I think the problem really lies with family who do not understand or agree with the participant's choices, whether they were made knowingly or not. It must be very hard for them to process all of that, but litigation is not how you cope with that.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 17, 2018 - 02:59pm PT
Don't forget, we talkin bout Potland, Oregon!! Everyone up there moves sensationally slow....
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 17, 2018 - 03:11pm PT
Classic Republican solution, whatever is easiest for him is best for society

Yikes!

First, I'm no Republican.

Second, quit spitting into your screen and take a deep breath. Calm down (or sober up), and then perhaps you could recognize the obvious...

No, it's hopeless.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
May 17, 2018 - 03:36pm PT
Don't forget, we talkin bout Potland, Oregon!! Everyone up there moves sensationally slow....


No shit! Expecting anybody in Slowregon to hurry was their first mistake. That's something most people would notice gassing up on their way to the trailhead.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 17, 2018 - 08:04pm PT
I remember an article in Summit magazine in about 1967 talking about the possible torts in a rescue situation. The reaction was almost universal disapproval.

While I agree with Fat Dad (a fellow UCLA law alum) that we need a functioning tort system to protect consumers, I see a trend over the last 80 years toward an overreaction. We need to remember that the cost of defending a relatively meritless suit can still be quite high.

Then there's the lottery of going to a jury. West Publishing, a major publisher of law books, used to have an ad with a caption titled "logic has its limits." This was over the picture of an empty jury box.

In Fresno, a jury, allegedly of my peers, ruled that Fresno State improperly fired its women's basketball coach for stealing the prescription meds of her players, in addition, of course, to a poor record and alienating most of the team. They awarded her several million dollars.

The attorney who represented her has now made quite a fortune from suing governmental agencies for torts that should have been the plaintiffs' fault. In addition, just a few days ago, he won a verdict that a private employer who had a video recording of a manager stealing a bit over $600 wrongfully terminated her, and owed her almost $8 million in actual damages. They settled before the jury deliberated on punitive damages.

For these and many other reasons, we have many good reasons to think the current tort system misallocates responsibility.

John
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
May 17, 2018 - 08:30pm PT
I feel truly sad for the family, but the sense of entitlement brought on by communications technology and ready availability of military-grade aircraft goes against everything their lost one embraced when he chose climbing.

A rescue which, in other circumstances, might have taken days was carried out in four hours. Whatever transpired on the phone calls, that's a fantastic response time for a remote glaciated accident site. And lets remember that on a rescue mission on Mt. Hood in 2002, a helicopter crashed and rolled 1000 feet down the mountain.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
May 17, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
I’m certain there are many examples of undeserving plaintiffs cashing in, just as there are undoubtedly similar examples of vile defendants escaping liability. It’s not a perfect system. My experience is that it mostly sort of works out with reasonably predictable results.
gunsmoke

Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
May 17, 2018 - 09:23pm PT
My understanding, based on a conversation I had two days ago with a member of Portland Mountain Rescue, is that the 911 call was not passed directly to the Sheriff's Office. Rather, it was sent to Timberline Lodge Ski Patrol. The site of the victim was well outside of the area patrolled by Timberline. Approximately two hours of time was lost as the 911 call bounced around until PMR (not named in the suit) was finally activated. Those lost two hours may very well have been the difference between surviving and dying. If the above facts are accurate, the legal question is whether the Clackamas County 911 service is responsible for botching the processing of an emergency call. The fact that climbing is dangerous seems, in this case, to not be pertinent to the legal question of responsibility for processing 911 calls.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 17, 2018 - 09:38pm PT
I thought we Americans were the worst but we are only the fifth worst:


Lawsuits per 1,000 people:

1. Germany: 123.2/1,000
2. Sweden: 111.2/1,000
3. Israel: 96.8/1,000
4. Austria: 95.9/1,000
5. U.S.: 74.5/1,000

It surprises me that the Swedes and Austrians sue so much. But part of the equation is we have more poor people who sue less, as they cannot afford lawyers, so our numbers are lower.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 17, 2018 - 09:58pm PT

Approximately two hours of time was lost as the 911 call bounced around until PMR (not named in the suit) was finally activated.

can anybody say Chronic! Chronic! Anyone seen my Chronic? Anyone?

🚬
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 17, 2018 - 10:02pm PT

It surprises me that the Swedes and Austrians sue so much. But part of the equation is we have more poor people who sue less, as they cannot afford lawyers, so our numbers are lower.

so iguess places like China, India,.... wait, does china EVEN have any lawyers!?

😏
Crazy Bat

Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
May 17, 2018 - 11:37pm PT
I think it is the responsibility of each of us who go into the wilds to have a serious conversation wit our families about what our wishes are. Most of my immediate family also participates in my primary sport of caving but an ex husband did not.

It is a difficult thing to say what I do is I inherently dangerous. I will do my best to stay safe but if I die it is my own fault.

That said I have two friends who were injured by gear failure. They rightly sued, but they survived to file their own suits.

I type out if two sides of my mouth, or is that thumb? LOL
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
May 18, 2018 - 12:12am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Trump

climber
May 18, 2018 - 07:43am PT
That’s enough information for me to reach a verdict. Burn her, she’s a witch! These tricky kinds of things are simple to me.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 18, 2018 - 08:11am PT
It seems to me that most legal findings are based on the question
“Is there more work here for a lawyer?”

I love that old Tina Turner song - “What’s justice got to do with it?”
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
May 18, 2018 - 08:27am PT
My understanding, based on a conversation I had two days ago with a member of Portland Mountain Rescue, is that the 911 call was not passed directly to the Sheriff's Office. Rather, it was sent to Timberline Lodge Ski Patrol. The site of the victim was well outside of the area patrolled by Timberline. Approximately two hours of time was lost as the 911 call bounced around until PMR (not named in the suit) was finally activated. Those lost two hours may very well have been the difference between surviving and dying. If the above facts are accurate, the legal question is whether the Clackamas County 911 service is responsible for botching the processing of an emergency call. The fact that climbing is dangerous seems, in this case, to not be pertinent to the legal question of responsibility for processing 911 calls.

This is the logic that continues to hobble the court systems and keep the victimization attitude alive and well.

"Botching the process of an emergency call" ???
Are you too young to remember pre 911 days when you actually had to take care of yourself?
Just because you can call someone to rescue you today does not preclude the responsibility of putting yourself in that position in the first place.

When a rescue agency is formed it is not to shoulder the blame, it is to help when possible.


No one is responsible for your well being but yourself.


Trying to force blame onto any other source but the individual that VOLUNTARILY put himself in this position is ludicrous.



ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
May 18, 2018 - 08:42am PT
I think the legal question would be whether the 911 dispatcher could reasonably be expected to know what agency to forward the message to (a nearby ski patrol seems pretty reasonable to me) and whether anyone had any legal duty to launch a rescue attempt regardless of when the call was received. I'd say the answer to both is no.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 18, 2018 - 08:49am PT
I'd say the answer to both is no.

What would you be willing to bet that a jury would not agree with you?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
May 18, 2018 - 08:55am PT
I'd win on a motion for summary judgment so a jury would never get a chance to screw it up!!
clifff

Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
May 18, 2018 - 09:06am PT
Lawsuits put climbing itself in danger of being banned. Because the government's reaction could be to ban climbing altogether - problem solved - no climbing - no rescue needed - and no lawsuits.

Another would be legislation making it clear that there is no obligation for the government to rescue anybody engaged in high risk activities.

........................................................................

All ambulance services, ground or air, are rescue operations whether they are needed in developed areas or in the wilderness. On the news yesterday - A woman in a car accident had a helicopter ambulance called for a 20 minute ride - they charged her $38,000 of which her insurance only covered a few hundred. The debt ruined her life. Imagine such charges for an El Cap rescue - helicopter $40k - rescue climbers - $222k.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 18, 2018 - 09:07am PT
Ha! A friend just won a summary judgement but now the appeal begins.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 18, 2018 - 09:15am PT
Not sure what Oregon law is, but in California suing public entities is an uphill battle.

California law https://www.cacities.org/Resources-Documents/Member-Engagement/Professional-Departments/City-Attorneys/Library/2014/Police-Civil-Liability-Paper-FINAL.aspx

Under state law, all persons owe a duty to use due care in their own actions to avoid creating an unreasonable risk of injury to others.32 By contrast, those who have not created a risk of harm generally have no duty to take affirmative action to assist or protect another.33 Although police officers are paid to act in service of the general public, their official duties do not support liability for failing to prevent injury to an individual; like private citizens, they generally have no duty to come to the aid of others.34 This “no duty” rule will “bar recovery when plaintiffs, having suffered injury from third parties who were engaged in criminal activities, claim that their injuries could have been prevented by timely assistance from a law enforcement officer.”35 If this were not the rule, the police would potentially be “legally responsible to individual citizens to prevent their victimization by crime.”36

The fact that an injured party has requested, or even received, police assistance does not itself create a “special relationship” (discussed below) that gives rise to a tort duty to take action or a certain type of action.37 In other words, a police officer responding to an incident creates no special relationship; the officer need not provide emergency medical aid to any particular individual 38, utilize any particular law enforcement tactic 39, or conduct any particular type of investigation.
40 Even in the face of imminent harm to a person, and even when the police are on the scene observing, the failure of the police to take action to assist the person does not state a claim because the police simply have no legal duty to act.41

The police owed no “duty to … protect” even when a physical attack in their presence was reasonably foreseeable and easily preventable.42

C. A Special Relationship Gives Rise To A Duty
An exception to the “no duty” to assist rule is the special relationship doctrine. A “special relationship” between a citizen and the police, giving rise to a duty, arises only in rare circumstances when police conduct “not only contributed to and increased the preexisting risk, but also changed the risk that would otherwise have existed … (there is) detrimental reliance on the officers' conduct that prevented them from seeking other assistance; and … the officers' conduct lulled the … (citizen) into a false sense of security.”43 A duty of protection or assistance

32 Minch v. Department of California Highway Patrol, 140 Cal.App.4th 895, 908 (2006).
33 Williams, supra, 34 Cal.3d at 23.
34 Id. at 23-24; Zelig v. County of Los Angeles, 27 Cal.4th 1112, 1129 (1998).
35 Zelig v. County of Los Angeles, 27 Cal.4th 1112, 1129 (1998), citing Williams, 34 Cal.3d at 25.
36 Adams v. City of Fremont, 68 Cal.App.4th 243, 275 (1998). 37 Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal.App.3d 6, 10 (1975).
38 Rose v. County of Plumas, 152 Cal.App.3d 999, 1004 (1984).
39 Lopez v. City of San Diego, 190 Cal.App.3d 678, 682 (1987).
40 Von Batsch v. American Dist. Telegraph Co., 175 Cal.App.3d 1111, 1122 (1985).
41 Davidson v. City of Westminster, 32 Cal.3d 197, 206-09 (1982).
42 Id. 43 Adams, supra, 68 Cal.App.4th at 284.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 18, 2018 - 10:00am PT
I think the legal question would be whether the 911 dispatcher could reasonably be expected to know what agency to forward the message to (a nearby ski patrol seems pretty reasonable to me) and whether anyone had any legal duty to launch a rescue attempt regardless of when the call was received. I'd say the answer to both is no.
I tend to agree with this, but I also believe that if there is a system in place that at least purports to hold itself out as a resource in events similar to this (and I guess the real question is "events exactly like this"), then I don't believe it is too much to expect that they act competently. If a lawyer volunteers to represent someone pro bono and then radically screws up the case, does the lawyer have liability? Absolutely. That's not an exact analogy clearly but you probably get the gist of my argument.

I also agree that the legal issue is such that it could likely be decided on summary judgment. Still, if a party appeals, the standard of review is on a de novo basis, so you would not have won just yet.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 18, 2018 - 10:36am PT
A difficult problem. 4.5 hours does not tell how long was the wait after the Sheriff gave the order to mobilize. The Sheriff hesitated till he had confirmation from "professionals" that the injuries warranted a helivac. Perhaps a review of this protocol for a faster response time - but no, it wasn't the governments "fault." With the gov., it's usually going to be about money.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 18, 2018 - 12:18pm PT
Not surprising that our right wing resident kooks lap it up as something "holding America back" rather than making it a healthier place to live. Blaming the victims for seeking and getting redress.

That's the rub. When I get injured climbing, am I a "victim?"

John
clifff

Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
May 18, 2018 - 12:55pm PT
The cost of a 40 minute helicopter flight in Hawaii is as low as $192. That helicopter carries 6 passengers so ~ $1152 for the whole helicopter. A small helicopter should be much cheaper.

https://www.hawaiidiscount.com/tours/bigisland/helicopter-tours/kilauea-formations-of-pele.htm

https://www.hawaiidiscount.com/tours/bigisland/helicopter-tours.htm

https://www.google.com/search?q=helicopter+rides+hawaii&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1-ab

https://www.groupon.com/deals/magnum-helicopters-honolulu

This is a 3 passenger copter - 50 minutes for $209/passenger - $627 for the whole machine.
Trump

climber
May 18, 2018 - 12:57pm PT
It’s a risky thing stepping out your front door in the morning . Once you choose to voluntarily do that, all bets are off - whatever happens is on you!

Seriously, a lawsuit because an uninsured motorist crashed into you?! What are you stupid - you didn’t know driving a car was dangerous or something? Hea, we’ve got this thing all figured out.
gunsmoke

Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
May 18, 2018 - 01:54pm PT
The Sheriff hesitated till he had confirmation from "professionals" that the injuries warranted a helivac.

Largo, from what I was told, which I regard as a reliable source although must at this point be treated as hearsay, about two hours went by before the sheriff's office had the call in their hands. Supposedly they were prompt with setting a rescue in place once they knew of it, having a chopper on scene in two and half hours from contact.

I think some prior posts get to the heart of the issue: Was the 911 dispatcher's handling of the emergency reasonable and within internal protocols?

Imagine this: you are chainsawing logs in your backyard and cut into your femoral artery. You pull out your cell phone and dial 911, the (THE) agency appointed and trained to handle emergencies. The dispatcher calls a social work agency to check up on you. You die. Does the government agency just walk away on the premise of "Hey, chainsaws are dangerous?"

Seems to me that 911 in an area that oversees a mountain that kills a climber more years than not should be trained to always pass a mountaineering injury to the sheriff.

Although I don't regard this as pertinent to the questions at hand, I was told that the victim was climbing with a whippet and had no ice axe. In my thinking, climbing Hood without an axe is irresponsible. It makes me mad that rescues are needed for accidents that could and should be prevented.
gunsmoke

Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
May 18, 2018 - 02:05pm PT
A deeper concern is the implications of a successful 'failure to rescue' suit could have for bystanders, passersby, climbers in other teams and really anyone in the vicinity of any accident, anywhere, at any time.

Is there a duty to rescue? Is a rescue an entitlement? Should the public be spending sometimes millions to try to find and rescue lost folks in the wild lands?

I don't regard this as a "failure to rescue" suit. 911 has one and only one job, to contact the appropriate resources when a call comes in. If my kid just drank poison, I expect to be put through to the poison control center. If I'm being stalked at the park, I expect to be put through to the police. If fire breaks out at my home, I expect to have the fire department summoned, even if I stupidly started my own fire. Having a fall emergency sent to the nearest ski lodge is not acceptable.
Ezra Ellis

Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
May 18, 2018 - 02:19pm PT
This is insane,
Just ban all climbing
Problem solved
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 18, 2018 - 02:57pm PT
the victim was climbing with a whippet

I’ve posted a picture of a guy climbing Hood with a Golden Retriever.
Both appeared quite competent although the guy had a hard time keeping up.
Trump

climber
May 18, 2018 - 03:37pm PT
Once we train the computers and robots to do all the grunt work we’ll have more time to work out the answers to these important lawyerly questions.

Or maybe we’ve decided that we already do have the time to invest on it. Hope my kids don’t sue me for misusing my time here instead of investing it all in them!
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 18, 2018 - 04:03pm PT
I believe people might have a better mind set if they knew that rescue was not an option. That should limit the number of people willing to undertake a particular endeavor. It's a big "should" though. We've all done stuff with varying levels of difficulty and remoteness. You do that enough and you understand the math of what you may be getting yourself into. There are a lot of people without the benefit of that experience or how are dumb enough to believe that they can squeak their way out of anything.

Still, accidents can and will happen, and when they do, it's good to have someone who can come and save your bacon. About 20 yrs. ago a buddy and I did the SE Face of Clyde Minaret. Had an uneventful ascent but had a poor (i.e., inaccurate) description of the descent. About 50 ft. into it, my buddy pulls a block off into his lap and lands on a ledge about 10 ft. below. Really lucky he didn't ride the block the whole way down. This was way before iphones or ubiquitous cell phones, but I just happen to have mine. Turns out when we call 911, it takes them a few hours to figure out who has jurisdiction over our rescue (I know because they told me that). As a result, we had to spend a really long, cold night (especially for my friend, who had a broken pelvis) on Clyde before they could pluck us off the following morning.
Q- Ball

Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
May 18, 2018 - 06:12pm PT
I just call the embassy on accident from a sat device. Nothing like helicopters and a bunch of special forces guy showing up while you are eating oatmeal in the jungle.
WBraun

climber
May 18, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
Yeah ....

People think in the mountains and remote areas you just dial 911 and they come running immediately.

There's a rescue team in a closet hanging there and they come to life immediately running out the door .... lol.

Go work a real technical rescue sometime from the very start of the first 911 call and you'll all the hidden stuff that goes on
that people never actually hear about nor see to actually make the rescue even start to happen.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 18, 2018 - 07:17pm PT
^^^ Werner would know!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 18, 2018 - 08:44pm PT
Dingus is on the right track.

It's not simple. Do you -- yeah, you -- think that if you run into trouble on a climb you should expect help to arrive within x minutes of pulling your cell phone out?

If you do, how much are you willing to pay for that security?

Rescue isn't free. So, to my mind, this debate should be about whether climbing rescues should be a taxpayer-funded benefit available to climbers, or not.

We all, even the most conservative small-government enthusiasts among us, believe that there are some things that should be taxpayer-funded. If someone is breaking in to your home, you expect that the police will race in with sirens blaring and lights flashing. Ditto for your local fire department.

So the question isn't "should the government provide any services", but rather "what services should the government provide."

Is it reasonable for me to expect you to pay whatever it costs to pull me off Mt. Whatsit if I get in trouble? Or should I accept that climbing Mt. Whatsit is a choice I made freely, and that it would be unreasonable to expect you to pay whatever it costs to bail me out if things go south?
Ezra Ellis

Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
May 19, 2018 - 06:05am PT
This is an incredibly slippery slope.
Ban all climbing.
Rescue is a privilege, not a right!

There is an assumption of risk we all must accept.
Don’t go climbing if you cannot accept that risk.
We are so F’ed.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
May 19, 2018 - 06:57am PT
Personally, I never felt entitled to a rescue by the government (or any third party) when I went climbing. Now I'm thinking maybe the government shouldn't even be in the rescue business. Don't they have a system of private insurance (perhaps associated with membership in climbing organizations), in some European countries, that pays rescue costs? If you want the privilege of being rescued by anyone but friends or family when you go climbing, get a job and pay the insurance. Of course, such a solution would require a major overhaul of the legal framework in the US.


Edit to add: I'm thinking something like a private corporation assumes responsibility for the rescue. Costs and profits are paid through insurance. If necessary, the government could cooperate by renting out infrastructure, etc. but in no way should it be held accountable for a failed rescue. This way the government could even make money on rescues instead of spending everybody's tax money.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 19, 2018 - 11:23am PT
Privatize rescue? Look at our medical system to see how well that worked out.

YOSAR is primarily manned by climbers. I suspect the pros on YOSAR spend as much time rescuing hikers as they to climbers. Expecting once a year hikers to buy insurance is ludicrous. Maybe a rescue insurance mandate, no insurance, no hiking. Pretty sure that is not going to work.

Society subsidizes many aspects of life, it is part of living in a civilized society. Parks, roads, police, and fire are the obvious.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
May 19, 2018 - 11:36am PT
But should taxpayers subsidize foolishness or ineptitude?

If somebody requires a rescue due to stupidity shouldn't he be willing to pony up?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 19, 2018 - 11:39am PT
If somebody requires a rescue due to stupidity shouldn't he be willing to pony up?

Exactly. That’s why they’ll give you a hefty bill in Europe if you don’t have insurance.
Scott McNamara

climber
Tucson, Arizona
Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2018 - 02:28pm PT
A somewhat similar case:

https://openjurist.org/949/f2d/332/johnson-v-united-states-department-of-interior

This is from a parallel thread on MP.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114378904/family-of-climber-killed-on-mount-hood-is-suing
Don Paul

Social climber
Denver CO
May 19, 2018 - 03:19pm PT
Jon I agree it sounds like a weak case. It's probably in the "slip and fall" category of negligence claims in the OR Tort Claims Act where you can be sued for ice on your porch. However Oregon has a modified comparative negligence rule so if climber was more negligent he collects nothing. Someone said he was soloing? That sounds very negligent.
McHale's Navy

Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
May 19, 2018 - 06:00pm PT
Climbing sure was dangerous before cell phones came along. We had the whole wild world in our hands, we had the whole wild world in our hands........
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
May 21, 2018 - 04:20am PT
Privatize rescue? Look at our medical system to see how well that worked out.

Now that it looks like this thread is dead, I thought I'd go way off topic and respond to this. I don't have a clue if my off the cuff "privatization" remark is a good idea or a bad idea, but it ain't gonna be implemented, so it's pointless to go on about.

However, I wanted to mention that the US medical system was never "privatized". There are very few countries (Venezuela, North Korea and Cuba come to mind) where all healthcare workers, like police and firemen, are government employees. Health care in most countries today (even Norway and Sweden) is a mix of private service, public service and government subsidies. The main difference is the role government subsidies and private insurance play.

Take Canada, for example. The main difference between the Canadian healthcare system and the US healthcare system is the way medicine is subsidized by the government, not that one is "socialized" and the other is "privatized".

Canada has a publicly funded health care system, but the vast majority of doctors do not work for the government. A patient is free to choose which doctor they wish to visit, and they are entitled to essential physician health services without charge. Doctors are self-employed, which means they can determine their own hours and work location, and they are responsible for paying their employees, for office space and other overhead expenses. Doctors earn money by billing their provincial government for the services they provide to patients.

The Canadian health system is often referred to as "socialized" medicine, but it is actually a mix of private providers billing governments for publicly funded services.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/five-things-canadians-get-wrong-about-the-health-system/article20360452/

At any rate, I think most people would agree that US medical care is pretty good, if you have the money. It's just that the way the government subsidized medicine (primarily through Medicare and Medicaid) and the role of private insurance, has tended to drive up costs higher than other countries and make basic healthcare inaccessible to a large mass of poorer people.

All that aside, my own belief is that access to basic health care should be a right in a country as wealthy as the US. I'm much less convinced that rapid and expensive rescues for mountain climbers should be a fundamental right.

Cheers!
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
May 21, 2018 - 10:35am PT
But should taxpayers subsidize foolishness or ineptitude?
They (we) already do. I forget the number, but climber rescues are just a small fraction of S&R resources. I don't think anyone would ever argue that lost hikers/campers, etc., should not be rescued, regardless or his or her ineptitude, let alone pay for it.
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