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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 31, 2018 - 08:48pm PT
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Roberts defines the character traits common in the fraudulent climbers but then goes on to point out that the truly successful climbers have exactly the same traits.
The drive that makes them successful is the same that motivates the fraud.
I find this very hard to accept. In my experience climbers who cheat and lie are entirely different types of people than those who, over time, earn the trust of the community. I know there are climbers who have surprised the larger community when their fraud is exposed, but in most cases people on the inside had a clue.
Climbing is hard to observe. In many cases a climber or a team comes back and says we did it. "It" could be a hard sport climb, a hard traditional climb, psycho ice, or huge alpine. Isn't it interesting that some climbers have the credibility to come back, state their claim, and it's no questions asked. This trust is earned.
Erik Eriksson is an example. We were talking about some climber we suspected of embellishing their achievement on some climb. He said to me "The most important thing is your credibility. If you make sh*t up you lose." (Or something to that point, it's been a while.)
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csm
Big Wall climber
South Lake Tahoe
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I've been climbing since 1986. I've noticed a lot of climbers (especially big wall climbers) were alcoholics or heavy weed users. I've always had a theory that some were involved with climbing because it helped solve some chemistry imbalance in their body. Climbing (especially big walls) seems to be especially dangerous for anyone with depression.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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At daytime with our busy lives, we hardly notice the the sun going up and down, as our big planet rolls around. How often will we chance to ride a rock around a nearby star? Look out there at the boundless distances in the night sky. Look up and see the Milky Way Galaxy that surrounds us. When will we once again in some unknown lifetime look out to see our star riding around in a galaxy? Look at all the amazing phenomena occurring in our every day lives that we could see if we just opened our eyes and noticed them. Makes me feel so small, but lucky to be alive. Why would I want to screw any of that up by prematurely taking myself out of the big equation?
Perhaps when the pain always outweighs the joy? But that’s a question for another day.
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HeldUp
climber
Former YNP VIP Ranger
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I've been a regular lurker here for a while. I feel your genuine kinship though I don't know any of you personally. I greatly appreciate the raw thoughts and emotions on a topic I know all too well.
My mother took her own life when I was in high school. She was just 44.
Unfortunately, those genes are my genes - two of her sisters went out the same way. My brother, sister and I struggle with depression daily. Through the proper meds along with diet and exercise, so far, so good. In fact, I no longer need the meds. I found what works for me.
I was an avid high-country hiker and scrambler for much of my youth. When my friend, Mark, fell during a routine climb and broke his back and ended up in a wheelchair, I've had to live through you all to get my climbing high. I didn't want any part of depression combined with an activity where a simple mistake sends you to a sure death. Climbing is both exhilarating and unforgivable.
I wanted to live!
I've fought through the haze to make it into my fifties. A day at a time, as they say. But instead of basing my life on the highs and lows, I made a concerted effort to focus on the day to day - pushing through, getting married, having kids, being an active part of their lives and part of a community. It has kept me busy, exhausted, and I make a difference in other people's lives.
It worked. So far, so good.
Yes, I missed out on a lot on what I thought I wanted to do and have become a little softer around the middle. That's part of the sacrifice. But I still hike regularly and make a good secondary living as a landscape photographer. Makes for good therapy.
If you want a reason to live or a reason to die, what you're looking for is easy to find. I chose to live. I didn't want my kids to find me naked in a closet overdosed on drugs or with a bullet in my brain in the backyard.
I hope and pray that each of you find peace in your struggles. As my best friend says whenever I'm down, "With every hardship comes ease."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I live at 7,700 ft. I’ll try my best. No gun in the house...that should help my odds.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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tippy toeing on the edge
That about sums up my dance with suicide. With each day I grow older and my body is less functional due to injuries, other health issues and a life long struggle with depression. The edge gets more narrow. I can see it narrowing to a razor’s edge, the point where you can no longer continue the balancing act because it is cutting you to pieces to straddle the edge.
I had less of a problem when I could physically exhaust myself through endurance training. I more or less lived for that.
Now I am no longer able to do that and haven’t much faith in those in charge of my mental health.
I can’t decide if I have defeated myself with negativity or am being objective about myself. I haven’t reached the razor’s edge yet, but I see it on the horizon.
This is probably thread drift, but it is a safe harbor for my thoughts.
Borrowing some words from John Prine, I can simplify.
Christ I'm so mixed up and lonely
I can't even make friends with my brain
I'm too young to be where I'm going
But I'm too old to go back again
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Lace
climber
las vegas, nv
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I once attributed climbing to saving my life by giving me an amphitheater to calm my thoughts, see new beauty in the world, and provide motivation to lead a more active lifestyle. I can not actually remember a time in which I have not felt the dark pangs of existence, but I can remember a period of time after starting climbing in which I felt life was not purely a sufferfest.
Then I moved north thinking in part that a change of scenery, bigger mountains, and new techniques to learn would help save me from all the lingering bits of self destruction, and I would somehow go from a rapid cycling depressive maniac to a content little butterfly. Between weather, a lack of social graces, poor relationship choices, a weakness around booze, and biochemical imbalances, I didn't climb much outside a gym, and sh#t got really bad. I kept allowing myself to think that maybe if I could just climb more I would get better. Thanks be to many people, and programs, I know better now.
The greatest lesson I've been trying to learn is to not define happiness by what I do, but to try cultivate that happiness in how I am and think. That is, it is all in my damn head, not out there in the elements. Until that lesson truly sticks though it probably is best to never own another gun, and find other things to think about while I keep schlepping this boulder up a hill.
To pass a point though, in which I can no longer get around comfortably, is not an option, and maybe it is the long days and nights contemplating death that have made me so sure of this decision, but I will take the long walk alone, and leave when I feel ready. I do feel that is different, however, than checking out early because of an emotional conclusion that life simply is not worth living.
Best to everyone out there. <3
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Lace,
I see your point and agree with much of what you say, especially about location and healing. I have spent years trying to unlearn the darkness that is my mind. I am still trying, I’m still being coached by others and I read on my own. It doesn’t take despite my individual efforts and those assisting me.
I doubt many of the lost climbers to suicide had a 1/10th of the guidance I have and I wonder that if they had would they be contributing to this thread instead of being a number in the OP’s question. (In regards to that, from what I have learned there are so variables in the data on suicide no group is more at risk than another for one reason, the data is incomplete on the victims and there are too many variables in their lives such as how long they contemplated the act before committing it. Without their input, statistics are not relevant,)
I find no value in my being. I feel shame, unworthy and unlovable. I don’t know when the self loathing began, early in life is all I can say.
I tried once 11 years ago to end it all. It was a struggle to say the least and a miracle not to have decorated the walls with a gun shot. I won’t ever do that again, I should have stated that earlier, I think I am incapable of suicide now. I have guns, but I have no inclination to use them to hurt myself or anyone else.
I’m stuck somewhere between the living and the dead. Sooner or later i will crossover.
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HeldUp
climber
Former YNP VIP Ranger
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The greatest lesson I've been trying to learn is to not define happiness by what I do, but to try cultivate that happiness in how I am and think. That is, it is all in my damn head, not out there in the elements. Great lesson, Lace.
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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John M, yes sir walked down that road you are on with Epstein Barr a little over 30 yrs ago. I know how frustrating it is to have been a super fit athlete then sink into that decrepited space where you can’t so much as walk 10 ft uphill without getting nauseous. Yes indeed, tough as it is there is a way back to superior fitness. The Chinese emblem is exactly the same for crisis and opportunity. They are one and the same. A crisis is simply a gathering of energy. It is up to the individual to assume the mindset of seizing the opportunity. Everything starts with ones mindset. When I left the doctors office after hearing I had a slow burning virus and would be sick probably 3 to 5 yrs. I told myself BullSh#t, I don’t know exactly how but I will find a way back to superior fitness and I will do it in just a few months. Now to set the stage for success I took total responsibility for my current state. I manifested this state. I can manifest radiant health and fitness again. Then, I started studying everything I could about this state of deep exhaustion. I Purified my diet, went totally organic and became a vegetable eater. I am lacto - ovo today. In my studies Chinese medicine came to the fore front. It contained answers that Alopathic medicine did not. 5000 yrs of evolution, man.. dramatically more advanced than western medicine.. Ayurveda is very similar, way more advanced than Alopathy. Now In order to exit an inferior state( Sickness) and enter into a superior state (radiant health and fitness) one requires a very comprehensive treatment system. Chinese herbal formulations coupled with acupuncture treatments are precisely that and will return you to the state you desire. Yoga can really help as well. I do it about 5 days a week.
Today I am 68 and pretty darn fit. Though it is a more delicate balance at this age I am able to ski the backcountry all winter and climb all summer. A big wall or 2 included.
Like I said I know how how miserable chronic fatigue can be but you can regain that fitness you had. It all starts right Now. Assume that Ninja like mindset.. every movement of thought focused on that superior state that fitness you desire.. you can do it brother.. seize the opportunity...
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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Back to the specific topic of checking out. I too have had climbing partners choose to exit early. 2 different good friends, one a 200 ft swan dive onto rock the other a .45. I was shocked by each.. no inkling.. One struggling with alcohol the other deep depression( she hide it well ). Sometimes we trap ourselves in a merry go round of negative thoughts and see no way out. Especially if a long term illness is involved.. Everyone grapples with various challenges throughout life. No exceptions, no sir. Everyone runs into a wall once in a while. At 68 there seems to be no real subsidence. Just new varieties. The thing that has and continues to help me are sacred teachings (Krishnamurti, Lao Tzu, Chung Fu, Yoga, Dr Hawkins, Dr. Wolf, Christ,) and not making a big deal out of anything.. Krishnamurti’s teaching in particular destroyed the root of suffering, thought.. and showed clearly the importance of Silence and Space. The difference between the concept of Peace and the actuality... there are no ideals.. nothing to do, no where go, nothing to achieve. Negation negation negation... all throughout the day.. releasing thought now...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Not climbing as much though I'm at 15% BF.
I have other challenges and joys; learning to shoot my Sharpes Shiloh .45-70 , spending time with family, training animals, even driving my tractor is rewarding.
And then there are inspirations like Jello.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Happiness is making a bouquet from flowers you can reach.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Extending the analogy of this song from people to activities/interests.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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What a great album that was; Clapton AND Hendrix sitting in on a song each!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2018 - 09:30pm PT
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Wow Moose. Nicely done. I too know what its like to be laid up for longer than you wish and thinking the ailment might be with you from here on out.
Glad you made it back. Was that really just 2 years ago? Seems like you've been getting out a bunch for longer than that lately.
Ron-yeah there are other joys besides climbing and pretty stress free like your tractor time. Mine's splitting wood. But we should probably get back out on the rock too.
Arne
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Yeah, ionlyski,
As to the title of this thread: we’re just dying.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Arne, it’s been quite some time since we tied in together...need to change that!
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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Moose drool, I appreciate your honesty. My personal vision is that there is always a way to improve our lives, to continue to achieve our dreams. Visualizing and affirming our goals are critical to the actualization of our goal. The stronger our vision, the stronger our affirmations, the quicker the change for better. Another Key is remaining Silent about our goal. Don’t open your mouth and let the energy that will drive to and through the goal out of your mouth. Guard your words. Less is more when it comes to speaking, especially about our goal.. If we disregard the bodies Ilness and See ourself climbing, skiing, walking to the store, whatever our dream is. Your vision will be realized. The body will heal and continue to facilitate your dream..Single pointedness.. Silence...Patience.. relentlessly moving toward the goal..
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2018 - 06:16am PT
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Yes it has Jim. Let's make it happen this year.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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you are correct.. my mind went to Norm Kingsley.. he wrote "Icecraft" the first English language book on ice climbing, had over 200 first ascents.. not routes thank you , peaks, and had a successful business and family. He contracted Cancer, and one morning he went into the woods, had a bar of chocolate, and took his own life... i ached for months.
and like suicide by cop, i think there is the undiscussed suicide by mountain....
who thinks Willi Unsoeld did not know Cadaver Gap was unstable??
and, Rob Slater mumbled something about not coming back from K2... haunting...
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