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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Mar 22, 2018 - 04:21pm PT
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Is there something about climbing and the total dedication to it and that lifestyle, that depresses many climbers, when they later attempt to grapple with other realities in life?
I think that is probably the backwards direction to look at it. I think that it is more that the type of people drawn to climbing are the type of people that might have problems when they can no longer get what they got from climbing.
On the other hand, maybe it is the closeness of death thru many years of hard climbing, and the 'coming to terms with it' that allows climbers to make this choice more easily that the general population.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mar 22, 2018 - 04:21pm PT
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Sorry to sugarcoat it, but climbers are crazy. Actually crazy. Fringe. Misfits. ( listen to the specious rationalizations and starry eyed inane justifications). So it shouldn't be a big surprise
( that's all the sugar I got, you bunch o loonies)
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mar 22, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
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Which moves?
Focus on the "must make moves"? So far so good.
I'm definitely not putting a gun in my mouth though suicide is a reasonable option when living has become unbearable. I'm surmising that alleviating some pain is worth any price. I don't judge that act. It's your life, spend it how you will
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John M
climber
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Mar 22, 2018 - 05:20pm PT
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Could you crank a boulder problem in the sky, 500 feet off the deck, with no rope? Ever practiced the idea, rehearsed those moves in your mind? Did you start to get used to the idea?
Is the thought of the cold barrel of a pistol in your mouth really so different? Don’t climbers practice abberant thoughts?
I have done climbing moves in the back country that if I fell I would die. I was not much of a climber, but climbing did help me learn what moves that I could pull off with a reasonable level of assurance that I would not fall and what I shouldn't do unroped. I'm actually a bit of a klutz and ridges are some of the more dangerous places for me. Chris once said on this forum that his friends talked him out of base jumping because he just didn't have some of the natural physical talents necessary to be safe. ( at least that is what I understood him to say. I also do not have very high natural physical abilities, except in things like long distance running and swimming. I was a strong runner and swimmer, but couldn't catch a ball to save my soul, and I tried very hard to do those kinds of things. )
As for the cold barrel in my mouth. I have done that also. I couldn't pull the trigger. Not because death particularly scared me, but because of what I believed that it would do to my loved ones and my family. Plus I have spiritual beliefs and believe in reincarnation. So I believed that I would just be carrying that suicidal energy on into my next life and I didn't want to do that. But it was a close thing. When the pain gets bad enough for long enough, then your mind can go places that you might not normally even consider. Plus I fully believe that the mind can become broken and it can be very difficult to fix. So its not just a matter of will power, but also of healing ones psyche.
That young man who was here a few years ago that shot himself in the face, and lived, but then eventually killed himself. I knew he likely wasn't going to make it. His psyche was very messed up. I still feel bad about that because I couldn't really talk to him because I was afraid that I would just push him over the edge because my experience base is that it has been touch and go for me for many years. So I knew that he was in for a rough go, and the odds go up of actually doing it when one has already tried to kill oneself.
Edit: I apologize if this is going too far off what you were hoping to understand Ionlyski.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Mar 30, 2018 - 10:32am PT
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Does anybody else think the numbers are higher amongst longtime climbers?
I’ve loss three very close friends to suicide, all long time climbers. Everyone of them I wouldn’t have met if not for climbing. I’m still in a state of disbelieve and profound grief with the loss of my great friend Dave Johnson who took his life earlier this year.
I believe in each of these three cases depression was the significant and leading factor. Climbing has always been a way to press the reset button for me. One of my most challenging times in my late 20’s when I dropped into a situational depression a fateful and exhausting alpine climb in which I nearly got the chop snapped me out of a very dark place.
I think there’s a disproportionate number of climbers who pursue our sport for the relief they find with the endorphins brought on by the activity. They have a proclivity for depression and use climbing as a way to self medicate, I certainly do. I’ve known as I’m sure you all do a fair number who self medicate with more distructive means with alcohol and drugs.
Tamara thanks for sharing your dad’s insight, one of my greatest fears is how I will react to the time when I can no longer move over this earth on stone or snow. There will come a time when this ride will stop and as he said it is a great loss. I simply hope that the reflection on spending so much of my time in the mountains will carry me those last few feet. It’s not a good situation to leave your love ones struggling with such a fate.
Charlie D.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 30, 2018 - 10:41am PT
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Climbing is an outlet for people with NPD - the risk, the sense of superiority, the selfishness - and these types I think are also more prone to suicide.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Mar 30, 2018 - 02:30pm PT
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There was a lady who lived in Patterson, NJ, Mary Manachi. She had four children and three out of the four had Thalisemmia Major or "Cooley's Anemia." You need blood transfusions once a month, and you die before the age of twenty. No exceptions. One of them died at 12, another 15, and the last one made it to 17. A friend once asked her how she could still be happy, and she said that all three of her children knew they were going to die very young, but they rejoiced in the gift of each day they were given, and faced death with courage. She said she would not dishonor them by moping and bewailing her lot.
It is a paradox of human life that many of us who are given so much more, appreciate it less, and still manage to get depressed. It just depends on our inner demons, how strong they are.
When I would see pictures of Royal Robbins lecturing in his later years, it was easy to sense that behind the facade, there was a lot of adjustment and suffering to face, as the body and mind continued to decline. But is was always an inspiration to see that he did his best to face it with courage and integrity.
Everyone please check out Quinn Brett's blog. She is trying to adjust to suddenly going from being a durable, accomplished big wall climber to a lady in a wheel chair. She has a gift for expressing her thoughts and emotions in a very simple, naked and raw fashion.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Mar 30, 2018 - 03:19pm PT
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I think about this topic often and appreciate some of the heartfelt and sincere comments above.
Any of you who have lingered on supertopo for enough years know that I am an outspoken Christian and that it shapes my worldview and my outlook on life. I have always seen the climbing community, and others like it to be fairly secular and prone to depression and suicide. Its not something that I encounter in the Christian faith much as most of this since christians I know have tremendous joy and hope. It's not like it doesn't happen in the Christian community but it is so so so very rare. The majority of my closest friends to lead lives compelled by Christ have such a balanced worldview and a humility and hope that is so different than what I see in my climbing friends.. I love the climbing community and I would honestly say the majority of my friends are not Christian. The majority of my closest friends who lead lives compelled by Christ have such a balanced worldview and a humility and hope for humanity that it is just not compatible with the darkness and hopelessness that leads to suicide.
It is truly a mystery but I too agree that it seems very common in the "extreme sport" worlds.
Perhaps the stats back that up as the numbers seem very high in similar "extreme" career paths like police work, firefighters medicine etc...
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jstan
climber
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Mar 30, 2018 - 03:19pm PT
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I often wondered how Dad felt about the end of his life, if sometimes when laying in that bed he may have pondered the choices he made and options he'd had. For him, sticking it out and pulling from himself that "just another few feet" as he did on the El Cap solo was likely the only route which didn't compromise HIS Truths.
His words above - and his choice in how he died - indicate the depth of his consideration, as well as empathy for other choices...
I think that's what Royal was doing. At Frank Sacherer's memorial someone told me Royal was looking for me. I had been very sad at our early loss of Frank, Kim, John, and many others, and was concerned that young people would actually start to believe this "doing what he loved" thing. So I had said to the group "If you do not finish your route you will never know what you might have been able to accomplish."
Royal was considering this question.
I do think we need to be very careful not to interfere with decisions that rightfully belong to others, Here simple respect comes first and foremost.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Mar 30, 2018 - 08:40pm PT
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the thrill is gone
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2018 - 12:36am PT
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Nice post Somebody. That pretty much fits me, your description that is. I'm actually trying to get back towards the sensation seeking, though maybe just a little less euphoric this time around, because I prefer the highs and lows generally to flatlining my way along:)
Arne
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 31, 2018 - 08:21am PT
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ditto for so many of the same mental anguish symptoms after leaving climbing/tele skiing as my centers
I've lived with clinical depression for the last 25 years
What keeps me going!!
a constant stream of newness in my new extreme hobbies, Cactus and succulents, and mineral collecting
I have a self created wonderland of plants and rare minerals that requires ME to care for them and give them purpose.
I never need to leave my house!
A constant new supply of plants and minerals coming and going gives me happiness and a sense of needing to stay around long enough to retire in 6 years and then selling them all off
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 31, 2018 - 08:32am PT
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On another note:
When I had religious beliefs and believed in an afterlife, I thought of checking out a lot more seriously, why not? life sucks.
I could take my chances on an positive afterlife or reincarnation or whatever.
the day I became a Certified Atheist is also the day I decided that it's my biological responsibility to stick around and get my sh#t together.
My corny catchphrase, "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps"
I'm responsible, I have to make my life worth living.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 31, 2018 - 08:36am PT
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“There are very clear connections between work stress and depression, as well as other psychological symptoms,” psychiatrist Dr. Igor Galynker at Mount Sinai Beth Israel told Moneyish.
He explained that while small doses of acute stress (working toward occasional deadlines, or giving a big presentation) can cue your fight-or-flight response in a good way to boost performance, chronic stress (journalists on constant deadline, or police officers in the line of fire daily) is linked to depression, heart disease, high blood pressure and type II diabetes.
Other workplace traps that can trigger depression include:
-Feeling like you have no control. You have no say in making any decision or changing the work culture, and you don’t feel comfortable talking to your manager or employer about it.
-Job insecurity. You could be fired or laid off at any time, or fret getting axed if you address workplace issues.
-Irregular work hours and poor sleep. You can’t rely on a consistent schedule, and you’re not getting enough rest to recharge.
-Work-life interference. You’re texting and emailing with your employer outside of work hours, and you’re struggling to maintain family relationships, or care for children or sick parents.
-Workplace discrimination or harassment. Hostile work environments and threatening interactions with coworkers and superiors are associated with higher risks of depression.
-Values that don’t align. You legit abhor where you work or who you are working for, or you’re doing something you have zero interest in.
I guess that 80-90% of Americans on anti-depressants are without knowing it put on them because of systemic causes... work or family... Most Americans think it's good for the economy... Big Pharma know it's good for Big Pharma... and for most people anti-depressants doesn't work better than placebo... If we forget about the unwanted side effects...
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Mar 31, 2018 - 01:15pm PT
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Many interesting discussions over the years with Chouinard, Gill, Royal, Layton, Kamps, Higgins, Braun, Hoover, Bridwell, and other climbers.
These bodies are not designed to deteriorate once they reach maturity. What we call old age is due to intentionally engineered assaults on them using radiation, and contaminated air, water, food, hygiene products, pharmaceuticals, and a barrage of electromagnetic signals and psychological warfare. Most people who grew up in modern society can not imagine that all of this is intentionally engineered for purposes of social control, as this is the world they grew up in and take for granted.
A lot of this damage can be at least partially mitigated by techniques such as Peter Kelder's little book and by Victor E. Irons fasting and the Master Fast, etc. There is a lot available to learn on this subject as more and more people are waking up to it and knowledgeable literature becomes more available from discoveries by scientists and philosophers.
Friends and family were long convinced that I had a death wish, based upon risks taken free soloing, sky diving, flying, SCUBA, small boat ocean sailing, etc
Later in life an old high school friend confessed being sure I had a death wish, but eventually realizing that the least bit of that would have seen me dead long before. So I profoundly love living, not so much a risk taker as a risk manager. It's enough just watching birds and breezes in trees.
As a child I was a bookworm astronomy/computing/space travel nerd trying to understand the nature of intelligence. At age 14 I took up rock climbing as a laboratory to understand confronting five topics difficult to research adequately in a library: fear, mystery, unknown, fatigue, and death ... without anticipating being good at climbing and loving it so much.
There is a long list of adventurous moments with no logical explanation for my survival. At age 25 I added up some of these and decided having learned enough lessons that the angels shouldn't have to work so hard to keep me here. Such moments haven't completely gone away, but I no longer seek them out. But I am still doing wilderness search tracking, rope rescues, fighting wild fires, and commercial diving.
Death is not an exit strategy. On this planet the penalty for death is birth. Birth is sufficiently traumatic without an added knowledge of having attempted a failed exit through suicide.
There is a very powerful meditation technique in practicing a perspective of death without doing anything to damage the physical body. This is a valuable technique at any age, but particularly as one becomes older or is dealing with health challenges.
Recognize that a traumatic death followed by a traumatic rebirth is not especially spiritually enlightening. Such unfortunate experiences just play into the hands of the controllers.
It is however possible to quietly drop the body and pick up a new body or move on to other levels of existence without all the drama and trauma that is taken for granted around here. The latest Star Wars movie features Luke Skywalker doing this while meditating.
This planet was long ago set up as a biological research terrarium and later subverted as an electromagnetic trap for souls. To escape the trap requires calmly expanding awareness of the holographic matrix that we view as material reality. There is a lot of information becoming available on this. However the architects of the matrix are doing everything imaginable to prevent people expanding their awareness.
Perhaps the biggest mistake is not realizing that you have a choice in this at every moment in time.
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John M
climber
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Mar 31, 2018 - 03:14pm PT
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The association between sensation seeking and suicide attempts was moderated by substance use problems."
just so people don't misunderstand, "moderated" when used in academic terms does not mean "to make less". Instead it means "to preside over". In this case it means substance abuse problems preside over depression.
.........
Micronut.. Your perspective is interesting, but perhaps a bit narrow. I was raised in a Christian family. For years I considered myself to be a Christian. I still do even though my current beliefs don't line up with current Christian theology. I had problems with depression from a young age. Few people in the church would have known that though because I hid it. Then when I started revealing it at a later age I was told that I was sinning, which was the cause. That caused me to leave the church, which was the best thing that I could have done because it caused me to find the spiritual path that I am on now. I feel so much freer then I did when I lived under modern Christian theology, which I believe misses out on so many great things. Before Jesus left the earth, he said that he had more things to teach us, but we weren't ready for them yet. When the modern church made the bible the inerrant word of God, and said that it was complete, it cut itself off from new revelation. I wonder when Christians are going to be ready for more Truth.
Also.. once I started revealing that I dealt with depression, many people in multiple "christian" churches revealed to me that they too dealt with depression. So perhaps you need to look deeper. Please do not misunderstand me. I do not question your sincerity, but I do wonder how deep you have dug into this topic in the church.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Mar 31, 2018 - 04:30pm PT
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No doubt about the high numbers of climber suicides, but read Expedition Fakes and Frauds.
Roberts defines the character traits common in the fraudulent climbers but then goes on to point out that the truly successful climbers have exactly the same traits.
The drive that makes them successful is the same that motivates the fraud.
(He also profiles Laird Bruce of Kineard whose tails from Abysinia were not believed though later proved true.)
I strongly suspect Rob Schnelker read Roberts' novella Like Water and Like Wind (he was very well read on climbing). The protagonist ends by crawling into a deep crevasse and eating a jar of sleeping pills.
Rob was last seen on approach to the Winds. He had spoken of suicide several times since we put up Monkeyfinger Wall.
Then there is Layton. It hurt me that he didn't tell me WHEN he was going to quit dialysis, but made no secret of his intent to do so soon. I had already promised him to help the family until his son graduated. Hard to call it suicide when his illness was so unbearable.
Also, I heard on NPR that many of the opioid deaths are actually intentional. People get tired of living with addiction and being a burden on family.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 31, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
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The gross physical material body is the house of pain for the living entity .....
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Mar 31, 2018 - 07:43pm PT
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Yes, pain and other negative feelings result from mentally resisting an isness.
Love and understanding come from inside you.
The important solutions are not to be found outside of yourself.
Reincarnation is not something you do, so much as something done to you.
It is well to be prepared ahead of time, so as to not be vulnerable.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 31, 2018 - 07:55pm PT
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Normalization of the extreme.
Tippy toeing on the edge.
Weeks after months after years.
In all aspects, angles of life.
Takes it's toll on some of us.
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