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Trump
climber
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“.. one: you’re odds ..”
I think we can make big mistakes, we make small mistakes. Sometimes we make more than one mistake at a time. Sometimes our mistakes aren’t really mistakes at all, just pieces of a bigger puzzle than the one we’re paying attention to.
Best again!
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Werner.
Truth not spoken in love is no truth at all.
What I've heard from you thus far, dating from long before this thread, is half truths, spoken in black and white moralism. No erg of love in sight—smiley faces, notwithstanding.
Spirituality, as taught by the Masters, is not moralism, it’s certainly not black and white, and it’s dripping with love—which is the whole point. Why would anyone even have an interest in spirituality if it did not deliver a love never before experienced and so utterly perfect that it dissolves untruth before our eye and changes us forever? Not emotional love, but the genuine, undivided Sound Current emanating from the supreme deity—and I’m not talking about what religions call God.
Confusion is rampant today—all over the world, SuperTopo included. Not everyone, but there are individuals here, genuinely seeking understanding. And you’re telling them they’re “st00pid”.
How helpful is that?
OnsightOrGoHome writes:
So my choices today mean nothing as my fate was sealed by my choices made in my previous life, which were sealed in my life prior to my last life, and so forth? It seems that the development of one’s consciousness is affected by the choices we make today (resulting in unique experiences that only that specific choice would result in).
This is an honest, sincere postulate. It’s a genuine effort to bring reason to what you’ve previously said, and what he’s trying to understand.
And your response?
No
Which isn’t even true. To assume that “the development of one’s consciousness is affected by the choices we make today (resulting in unique experiences that only that specific choice would result in)”, is absolutely correct. And you answer, No—end of story?
Yes, consciousness is only conferred by the grace of a genuine Sat Guru, but even the student/chela of such a Guru is going to make choices that move her/him closer or further from the third eye—for many years. And that distinction is the closest thing to ‘right and wrong’ that occurs in the higher planes.
Yes, we come into this life with a full plate from previous lives, and that list of karmas I listed earlier is what we’ll experience, but we will indeed be creating plenty more throughout this life, even if we’re on a bona fide Light and Sound path, already cruising above physical consciousness. Karma diminishes, but nonetheless persists all the way to realization of soul. And the ‘thing’ that eliminates it is—surprise—divine love.
What’s most important here is the perfection of karma and the lives we’re living. Each of us is exactly where we belong in our evolution—with a precision unimaginable to the mind. Are we going to badmouth people for where they’re at? Are we going to go around kicking plants because of the level of their consciousness?
Everyone is doing exactly what they need to do to get where they’re going, and no two of us—in the entire creation—will do it the same way or arrive at the same time. We’ll all go through the same steps, but we’ll do it our way, and the journey will have been absolutely perfect for each one. Solely by the grace of the Master.
A good friend of mine once observed, “We’ve all received the religious suppository and it wasn’t a pleasant experience.”
Amen.
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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It often seems to me like we misunderstand the way things are (i.e. believe things that aren’t true) in ways that help us change things to be the way we want them to be. But we have to really honestly believe it first, even if it isn’t (yet) true. And that’s just kind of part of the magic of how we work. We don’t have wings to flap, but we do this belief thing instead.
We DO have a wing, but meeting a Godman is required to ignite it. When our infant wing is enlivened and joins His, we begin to soar.
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Acknowledging one's good luck, and recognizing that "bad luck" isn't necessarily a sign of divine displeasure, or personal inadequacy, could change the way we view our world, and our society.
Could, Ed, but like everything else, the world is functioning precisely as designed. Nice idea and reasonable sounding perspective. But it won’t change. It’s perfect the way it is.
Viewpoint, on the other hand—an aspect of soul—can definitely change, but society, not so much. Only the awakened soul will be transcending, free to move about the creation at will. All else is stuck in the level of its own existence, and will never exist anywhere else.
Take anger, for instance. Anger will always be anger. It will never be anything else. It can’t be changed. And it can only exist in the lower three planes. Ascend above those planes, and anger is nowhere in sight.
Then again, what was just described is not something mind is capable of doing. It’s only the mind, and can’t ascend beyond those three planes, either—thank God!
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 10, 2018 - 04:59pm PT
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Last October I woke up on Pitch 3 of Zenyatta Mondatta to a rock bouncing off the portaledge and a pile of sand in my face.
We bailed.
2 days later, halfway up Zodiac we watched half of pitch 5 of ZM fall off and clibber our bivi spot at pitch 3 with house sized blocks.
Luck? Intuition? I dunno...a little bit of both I suppose.
Here is a selfie vid my Partner Chris took just after the rockfall. When I suggested we bail off ZM the day before he didn’t hesitate.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 10, 2018 - 05:50pm PT
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Could, Ed, but like everything else, the world is functioning precisely as designed. Nice idea and reasonable sounding perspective. But it won’t change. It’s perfect the way it is.
everything is the way it is,
no design required.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 10, 2018 - 05:57pm PT
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Good things happen, bad things too...neither can be attributed to luck, karma, prayers or good wishes even though many people draw comfort thinking otherwise.
Suck up and gain some control of events by work and preparation knowing that your best efforts don't always turn out the way you hoped.
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Apr 11, 2018 - 08:12am PT
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Ego contracts into the rut of separation—its natural state. Separation from everything—from God and Self, separation from truth, love, separation, even, from intelligence.
I’m such a sucker. When people start making noises suggesting a desire for understanding, I actually take them at their word!
Thanks for the reminder. Keeps the weeds out.
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toejahm
Trad climber
Chatsworth, CA
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Apr 11, 2018 - 12:09pm PT
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Thank you Ed and Donini,
You constantly remind me of the beauty in our species.
Ed, I'm a beginning portrait painter and interested in giving yours a shot. If you'd allow me the honor please email me a photo, the more tattered the better(you not the picture).ha I've attached a couple of recent sketches as pre-painting prep.
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toejahm
Trad climber
Chatsworth, CA
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Apr 11, 2018 - 12:24pm PT
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Ha,
Salma Hayek as Frida..I much prefer it your way.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2018 - 03:17pm PT
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what about illness. try to wash you hands and eat healthy. take all kinds of supplements and get the flu anyways.... Just got done with the real nasty Flue and now came down with sore throat and runny nose......
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climbski2
Mountain climber
The Ocean
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Apr 11, 2018 - 07:31pm PT
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There is that little paranoid voice in your head sometimes. Something nagging at you telling you you're not comfortable. You're not sure why you're not comfortable. consciously you look at it and you think this is okay no problem. But underneath you're unusually worried and concerned about something you cannot identify consciously.
Listening to that has saved my life. I've heard that that has saved other people's life. I think it's the subconscious putting a bunch of factors together and telling you you're missing something.
Always remember...Backing off rarely gets you killed... Even if it doesn't give you bragging rights or satisfaction
Luck?
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Lambone
Big Wall climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 11, 2018 - 09:12pm PT
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climb2ski,
That’s exactly what I experienced on ZM in my post up above...
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Apr 11, 2018 - 09:28pm PT
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Dude, tradmom... it might be AIDS....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2018 - 03:07am PT
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no deal F. had the test last summer. all good.
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Trump
climber
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Apr 13, 2018 - 04:35pm PT
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“listen to inner voice”
Yea I remember, as the white parent of a black child, hearing a sound on my front porch at 1 am and turning on the light and opening the door, only to have my inner voice tell my eyes and brain to clearly see a black man sprinting off with my planter! When I called the cops and they asked the race, I had to consciously lie and tell them I didn’t know. Turns out the next morning when we figured out who did it and they admitted it, it was a white college kid.
Yea our inner voices are there to work to our advantage, just not always in ways that we notice, or would approve of, if we did notice. Sometimes our self-advantageous inner voice tells us lies, and sometimes the way it works isn’t so lucky for other people.
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Trump
climber
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Apr 13, 2018 - 04:50pm PT
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Thanks Larry.
Yea I think we’re all pretty convinced that we know the one true truth, and if other people don’t believe it, they’re just wrong, or not actually trying to understand the awesomeness of the truth that we have so clearly communicated to them. Don’t be discouraged - it’s kind (of anyone) to try to do it, even if the doing it doesn’t work the way we, with our clear understanding of how it all works, believe it should work.
Other people - they do it their way, and that’s cool. I, for one, honestly have learned to appreciate at least a little of the duck’s wisdom, and embarrassingly enough, he’s helped me understand things about myself and other people, even if maybe I, with my awesome understanding, didn’t believe it should.
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Trump
climber
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Apr 13, 2018 - 05:19pm PT
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Thanks for your story lambone!
I like to try to understand how we understand these kinds of things more specifically.
You woke up on pitch 3 (let’s call that day 1) with sand and rocks in your face. You bailed.
Then 2 days later (on day 3), you saw a rockfall fall from pitch 5 onto the bivi at pitch 3 where you had woken up with sand in your face.
But you’re saying that your partner agreed to bail the day before the rockfall (which would have been day 2), not two days before the rockfall (day 1, when you woke up with sand in your face)? Is that right, or just an off-by-one error in the storytelling?
If that is right, what did you do on day 1? Did you just stay there in the path of the future rockfall (that had been “predicted” to you by the sand in the face) all day, and then you bailed the next day?
What do you think was the lucky thing that you avoided?
Would the rocks have come dislodged if you had tried to climb pitch 5 two days before they became dislodged? If so, what evidence do we rely on to tell us that’s true? And if that’s the lucky thing that you avoided, what difference does it make (i.e. why is it part of the story we tell ourselves) that the rocks hit the bivi spot on pitch 3 where you had been bivied two days earlier?
Or if you hadn’t decided to bail after waking up with sand in your face, would you have still been at the bivi spot of pitch 3 two days later when the rocks hit it? Would you not have climbed off that bivi spot in those two days?
Would you have been just as lucky to have not been hit by that rockfall if you had been at the bivi spot two months or two years before the rockfall, rather than having been there two days before the rockfall? Do you think that having seen the rockfall hit the bivi spot makes you feel luckier than if you didn’t know about the rockfall at all?
To me it seems like the only way for you to have been killed in that rockfall was for you to be there when the rockfall happened. And you weren’t. Part of the reason you weren’t was because you got some information in the form of sand and rocks in your face that led you to form a belief that the rocks above were unstable. I expect that you knew all along that you didn’t really know whether or not those rocks were going to fall and kill you from the start, but that it was plausible to you that they might. Maybe the lucky thing was that the sand fell in your face.
I wasn’t there and didn’t get killed in the rockfall either, but for other reasons.
Thanks!
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larryhorton
Trad climber
NM
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Apr 14, 2018 - 11:59am PT
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That’s a pretty long string of astute observations, Trump. Seasoned with wisdom, humility, and sincerity.
The ‘inner voices’ story is a profound experience, but a note of caution:
...our inner voices are there to work to our advantage, just not always in ways that we notice, or would approve of, if we did notice’.
On one level, that’s true. But as we’re making our way up the ladder, that could be an overly generous perception of ‘inner voices’. It’s pretty clear that you’re an unusually generous guy, but closer examination of the voices might be a profitable contemplation—which I imagine you’re continuing to do.
The first voice, which had you perceiving a black man, was a very different voice than the one that chose to ‘lie’ about the race of the man you witnessed stealing your planter. One was clearly a representation of truth—the other, untruth. As I’m sure you know, we have countless unknown distortions tucked away in levels of the mind. Just recognizing its origin as the mind should let us know it’s out to cut our spiritual throat.
The unmistakable hallmarks of the second voice are of an entirely different nature, and it’s something we don’t want to ignore. (Ha! The Master just showed me the obvious, but previously unnoticed brotherhood between ‘ignore’ and ‘ignorance’.)
Which brings me to the point at which you sensed an uncertainty in my last comment. What you perceived was, indeed, uncertainty, but not the ones you thought. Dispensing spiritual treasures on a public forum like this is a violation of spiritual principle, and can carry heavy, unwanted costs to the devoted student. Gifting these gems of understanding is the exclusive purview of the Sat Guru, and disrespecting that principle can easily cross the line into total lack of discrimination.
It’s a razor’s edge, and the uncertainty you picked up from the previous comment are a reflection of that reality. Only a Godman can—and should—broach this challenge with certainty.
So. I’ll just say, universes separate the first ‘voice’ from the second. The divine wisdom hidden between the two should be enough to take an initiated seeker all the way home.
Milk it.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 14, 2018 - 04:32pm PT
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Dispensing spiritual treasures on a public forum like this is a violation of spiritual principle, and can carry heavy, unwanted costs to the devoted student.
Oh .... you're so full of sh!t .....
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