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climbski2
Mountain climber
The Ocean
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No cognitive disconnect...
While I do have exteme sympathy for the harm.. I have no sympathy for trying to share the harm.
Life is unfair..trying to share the unfairness you are dealt is cowardice.
Pretty much sums up a lot of this worlds issues
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Trump
climber
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And not being willing to share the harm inflicted on other people, in the right context, is called white privilege. We pick our sides on this world’s issues, one way or the other.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
The Ocean
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True..I suppose it is a matter of perspectve..but in climbing for me it takes a lot to consider someone else responsible for misfortune.
definately Beyond the normal and expected truth that people make honest mistakes in an unforgiving realm
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Trump
climber
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Nicely said.
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A Essex
climber
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honest mistakes happen all the time on the freeway and there are consequences
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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I do not think we want to reduce climbing to a sunday drive. Do you really want the land managers demanding proof of insurance before racking up?
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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I don't know what to think about this particular incident and the events that unfolded afterwards. Or, I think I know what I think, but I also know I'm not in either person's shoes, so my opinion is not worth mentioning other than sending my sympathy to both parties of the unfortunate event.
Even though the sad outcome did not change in the case of the recent accident that killed two superstars in Yosemite, I was relieved to hear that nobody's haul bag was implicated. If that had not been the case, I have no doubt a third person's life would be forever ruined, both emotionally and financially.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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If the haul bag had ended the career of one of our darlings, oh the outcry!
Dude, you might have better luck coming back as a cedar, that by chance, grows at the base of a nice sport line.
F*#k responsibility, hit and run rules!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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We all have to be responsible for our own choices, and if you chose to climb under another party then you accept the risk. But - when you have another party below you, there is a responsibility for being careful and not knocking something down on them.
An anecdote of mine - once I was climbing in the Bugaboos. Were were ascending a terribly loose, steep moraine, and it was impossible to avoid triggering rockfall no matter how careful you were. You know how loose active moraines can be.
A couple of Scots appeared and started ascending directly below us. I warned them of the rockfall danger and recommended that they ascend somewhere besides directly downhill from us, as it was terribly loose. They ignored me and kept following.
We really tried to avoid knocking anything off, but it was impossible to avoid. The Scots were enraged, and were screaming obscenities at us. But they kept ascending directly below us.
Once on top, my partner dropped his glacier glasses, which fell down into the talus. We stopped to fetch his glasses, so the Scots caught up to us.
The Scots started a fist fight over the matter of the rockfall. Our ice axes trumped their fists.
Stupid f*#king Scots.
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A Essex
climber
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Jun 10, 2018 - 06:07am PT
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So I'll play along with the 'accept the risk' line of reasoning for a minute
why then, is this guy being actively berated for asking for $ via a voluntary GoFundme, while two guys roped together, essentially soloing, are being showered with national media attention and money?
I really don't understand.
wrong place at the wrong time = no sympathy and active hostility
knowlingly taking huge risks for speed = much sympathy and outpouring of support
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Jun 10, 2018 - 07:06am PT
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A Essex wrote: "why then, is this guy being actively berated for asking for $ via a voluntary GoFundme"
are you posting to the correct thread?
if so, go back one page and [re]read the last post from eagletusk and then go back to the first page and [re]read his first post...
if this was about a gofundme, i suspect this would be an a lot more boring thread.
as it stands, the story i've seen so far, is that it's about a climber who chose to climb underneath someone else and who is now posting public, vague, possibly "lawyer" reviewed letters about implied potential lawsuits and "restorative justice" because they believe the other person is somehow at least partially responsible for an accident that occurred. this assumed responsibility is despite the apparent fact that the o.p. climbed underneath of the other group without giving that other party a say in the matter [or at least without asking to make sure the other party had liability insurance to cover a mishap or more importantly that the higher up on the rock climber was in agreement with this climber's historically atypical approach to liability and responsibility in the face of an accident (an accident that happened within an endeavor that is both non-necessary/completely voluntary and, as we are reminded with every disclaimer that we ever read in climbing, is an "inherently dangerous activity")]
ie. the distance from your synopsis of what's happening in this thread to what i've seen happening, is about as far as east is from west.
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John M
climber
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Jun 10, 2018 - 07:11am PT
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wrong place at the wrong time = no sympathy and active hostility
knowlingly taking huge risks for speed = much sympathy and outpouring of support
Its not that hard to understand. you left out a part.
Knowingly climbing under another group= you take responsibility if an accident happens that doesn't involve a high level of willful neglect or carelessness.
If he wasn't trying to make the other group pay, then he would get a lot more empathy. Most people here seem to believe that he should accept most of the responsibility because it was his choice to climb under another group. If the group that dropped the bag did it because of negligence, then they would be to blame, but since it was an accident, then in climbing circles, the person climbing below takes the responsibility.
I'm sure the group above is very sorry this happened, but the community feels that they should not be held financially responsible. Hence, this guy doesn't get sympathy.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jun 10, 2018 - 07:49am PT
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If there's a crowd then I go elsewhere. I was taught that people drop things and cause rockfall. Climbing under other climbers is somewhat negligent
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 10, 2018 - 10:33am PT
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I do not think we want to reduce climbing to a sunday drive. Do you really want the land managers demanding proof of insurance before racking up?
When do the self climbing robots replace the human climbers?
But climbing is more like a nascar race than a Sunday drive. You assume the risk of somebody else's mistake and that is just part of the sport.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jun 10, 2018 - 03:29pm PT
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Like others I'm sorry for the OP's pain and long recovery. And had he treated it like just an accident and asked for financial help most here would have had a lot of sympathy.
But A Essex, that hasn't been the approach. The OP himself suggested this "restorative justice" idea. From the Wikipedia link for that:
"Restorative justice is an approach to justice in which the response to a crime is to organize a mediation between the victim(s) and the offender(s), and sometimes with representatives of the wider community. The goal is to negotiate for the offender(s) to deliver a restitution to the victim(s), to the satisfaction of all participants."
Response to a crime? I don't think anyone here would want climbing accidents treated as crimes. That's why we have had such a negative reaction.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Jun 10, 2018 - 04:58pm PT
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Knowingly climbing under another group= you take responsibility if an accident happens that doesn't involve a high level of willful neglect or carelessness.
If he wasn't trying to make the other group pay, then he would get a lot more empathy. Most people here seem to believe that he should accept most of the responsibility because it was his choice to climb under another group. If the group that dropped the bag did it because of negligence, then they would be to blame, but since it was an accident, then in climbing circles, the person climbing below takes the responsibility.
Sums it up well and deserves repeating.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 10, 2018 - 07:54pm PT
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OP could have raised some coin off a tactfully executed GoFundMe campaign. Instead he went over the top with the demands for justice. Now if the other party aquieses to any of the demands he will be viewed with as much contempt as the OP. Curious how is this playing on MP?
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Jun 10, 2018 - 08:00pm PT
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Also note the shameless name dropping by the op in first post. Sorry ya got hurt.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Jun 11, 2018 - 08:42am PT
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This would be a good topic for the legal blog https://www.popehat.com/. While the author doesn't seem to specialize in this sort of thing, he might weigh in. It could satiate the arm-chair-lawyers here.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 11, 2018 - 09:32am PT
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damn... hope you forget this goofiness paul and get to focusing on the remainder of your recovery.
Ditto that....
Be thankful for what you still have and move on.
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