Fallen Haul Bag Hits Climber

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Messages 141 - 160 of total 190 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jun 9, 2018 - 02:39pm PT
RESTORATIVE justice? -WHITE RASTAFARIAN- WHO MOVED THE ROCK BACK INTO THE CRASH ZONE

All those involved, have a different take, some feel they Missed the original location by \_/ This much, so
Maybe, in that very singular case?
But:
Looking for Restorative Justice, for this Accident, Is delusional.
a VERY CLEAR EXAMPLE OF THE ALIENATION OF RATIONAL THOUGHT .

That one could expect,
having chosen to take part in a gravity deifying/challenging related endeavor - where the very nature of the risk, & mitigation of risk, is 90%^ dependent on the decision making process that guides safety, can be grounds for any such thing is ridiculousness.

The accident is more your fault than anyone else's. while ignoring the obvious increased chances of having something drop on you, by choosing a popular climbing area, therefore placing more than 70% of the risk taken on you, & only 30% on the accidental/random other party,

if you go by the -They were there 1st- so were in the location that was yours alone to avoid. . . 30% seems right.

well. . . Ive re-considered, the fault was not yours but the sad roll of the dice, a terrible CASE OF BEING IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG MOMENT

(edit:I re-read the whole megillah - that you were, in fact, sitting on a ledge waiting to rap, -truly very bad luck-, offset by the droppers of the bag being, EMT & WFR, so, able to save your life, very good luck?)


eh?
Oh & that restorative justice? you've got it backwards, coming from you and from an un-provoked accidental event that is an obvious risk if you take part in climbing,
you are beyond an inconsiderate person.
Are you culpable under the law? I don't gnow - most likely?

How dare You choose such a dangerous practice? Your failures to make the proper decisions led to the PTSD that the person -who you propose was responsible(?)- That person, who, you have signaled out, will now suffer, and that is your fault.
You should be held liable for your mistakes & the resulting damages to his on-going quality of life.
Add to that He can never climb again safe in the knowledge that other climbers have his back . . . .

I think that Suspected dropper of said bag has sufficient grounds to sue you for a myriad of things, and I hope if you file his 'Counter' takes you a decade to satisfy.

I MOVED THE ABOVE TRASH FROM THE LAST POST ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE SO THAT THIS



nah000

climber
now/here

Jun 9, 2018 - 02:29pm PT
holy lick.



paul:

1. you were asked two direct questions immediately following your first post: A. do you have evidence that the bag drop was intentional? and B. regardless of the answer to "A." do you have intentions of possibly suing jonathon? as far as i recall seeing, you answered neither and so i'm left to assume that the only reason that you are making all of this public is in a misguided attempt to put social pressure on jonathon because you don't have the money to actually pursue a lawsuit [at least that's the only reason that i have so far been able to imagine that might explain your strategies]. know that in at least my eyes [and based on the other responses, others as well] this strategy has failed miserably and the only thing you've succeeded in doing is squandering any chance at cashing in on some genuine public sympathy and the few bucks a few [myself included] might have been willing to throw at a go fund me to support your healing.

2. and so free legal advice from an amateur internet based lawyer*: if you're going to saber rattle in public make sure you have a sword. otherwise you just appear at minimum careless, maybe feckless and quite possibly metaphorically dickless. ie. if you want to be transparent: then commit fully and be straight with what you are actually intending. and if you're going to sue jonathon: quit saber rattling and just do it already. otherwise you're only assuming that the public reading your "contributions" to the public realm are going to be as dopey as you seem to be. while i will admit that the public [myself included] can be pretty dopey... damn, you have assumed the bar was pretty low if you thought this strategy was going to help your cause. [*and for the dolts: ianal - and for the double dolts: that acronym means something entirely different than some might expect]



jonathon:

1. while it'd happen only if there is a confluence of sequential blue moons, know that, assuming there is no rest of the story that becomes public, i'd be happy to contribute relatively generously to a go fund me if you were req'd to defend yourself in a lawsuit. this would be done purely based on principle due to the absurdity of the situation that you would have found yourself in. of course it seems pretty clear that you'll never have to take me up on this: just wanted you/paul to know how well paul's strategies have alienated at least this member of the initially indifferent public.

2. more free legal advice from an amateur internet based lawyer [hahaha!]: what you've already done by responding went way above and beyond what you were required to by common decency - let alone legally [given paul's continued lack of transparency regarding his intents.] and so to ever answer that goof again, assuming the present path continues, would be a waste of your time/energy in all/any of its faculties.



damn... hope you forget this goofiness paul and get to focusing on the remainder of your recovery.
Could get the rightful respect it deserves.


it sounds like a terrible and ugly injury, Im sorry for you, and would be the 1st to call out a climber, as here , who showed callous indifference, that was not the case here.
I hope, given the severity of the injury & compounding complexities of the chosen treatment, then infection, and so delayed P. therapy during the protracted full healing time,
& suffering still - I'm sure, beyond the not un-substantial physical, but psychological as well. That I hope you have found some thing to help with

how you doing going forward in life if you never get any further resolution?

there was never any informal or implied obligation to provide you with a higher level of safety/security, than you had chosen to provide for yourself.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jun 9, 2018 - 02:56pm PT
(HAD A FISH ON-LINE - THATS WHO I WAS ASKING, HE DELETED , SO I 'LL JUST LEAVE THIS HERE*) DID YOU CATCH THIS ?
I had hoped that by posting the wide why of a video, it would have at least given pause.
was not trolling,
this is an important line,
It needs to be kept in the other sport, that is also climbing.
That other climbing, that happens in glorified airplane hangers on cool sculptures with attachable holds and survivable waivers.

it has to be a line,
there are acts of mayhem that occur not so much at random, but often due to un-for seen conditions/events that occur outdoors. . .

Important to the discussion:

1) he chose to go climbing/cragging at the base of El Cap in the middle of wall season. Was sitting (unawares, not stanced in the moment fully)which is fine, on a fair day at the Gunks but not June !9 at the top of Little John Pinnacle, (below an active wall.)

2)

3)Climber was lucky that skilled 1st responders were on the scene,
willing to jump in, when they could have "Left To Go Get Help"

4) Now, as lucky as can be to be whole, has seen it in his right to ask for, demand ? anything more while possibly defaming those good Samaritans . . .







Trump.
Pussy Grabber & Thief
Repugnant tyrant-wana'be
leader of the deplorables
Jun 9, 2018 - 03:42pm PT
What a bunch of hooey because everyone knows that itís 90% your faulty decision making!! And when I say 90% itís not like I made that sh#t up either - I measured that 90% with my own objectively double blind mind.

Yes, pot, the kettle sure is black.
Pussy Grabber & Thief! Is That You Who yoodooin?(#howmany?paidwhorwivz)

% value of decision: choice of Location,=? Choice to sit=? Choice to top out as a party of 3, at some point the %value of the choices made far out weigh the % value of the accidental actions of others.
Trump

climber
Jun 9, 2018 - 03:42pm PT
What a bunch of hooey because everyone knows that itís 90% your faulty decision making!! And when I say 90% itís not like I made that sh#t up either - I measured that 90% with my own objectively double blind mind.

Yes, pot, the kettle sure is black.
D2R2

Sport climber
Earth
Jun 9, 2018 - 03:46pm PT
Bulletproof? PHUCK, that 5 minutes of boring I'll never get back.
A Essex

climber
Jun 9, 2018 - 05:08pm PT
Wow, some real haters here.

Regardless of how they are dealing with their grief, dude nearly lost his arm for real for the crime of being in the path of a heavy bag?!

yet, those that lost their lives while essentially soling while roped together with minimal or no gear are celebrated? not to say that they shouldn't be, but the cognitive disconnect here is palpable
climbski2

Mountain climber
The Ocean
Jun 9, 2018 - 06:42pm PT
No cognitive disconnect...

While I do have exteme sympathy for the harm.. I have no sympathy for trying to share the harm.

Life is unfair..trying to share the unfairness you are dealt is cowardice.

Pretty much sums up a lot of this worlds issues
Trump

climber
Jun 9, 2018 - 06:48pm PT
And not being willing to share the harm inflicted on other people, in the right context, is called white privilege. We pick our sides on this worldís issues, one way or the other.
climbski2

Mountain climber
The Ocean
Jun 9, 2018 - 06:53pm PT
True..I suppose it is a matter of perspectve..but in climbing for me it takes a lot to consider someone else responsible for misfortune.

definately Beyond the normal and expected truth that people make honest mistakes in an unforgiving realm
Trump

climber
Jun 9, 2018 - 07:07pm PT
Nicely said.
A Essex

climber
Jun 9, 2018 - 07:57pm PT
honest mistakes happen all the time on the freeway and there are consequences
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jun 9, 2018 - 08:04pm PT
I do not think we want to reduce climbing to a sunday drive. Do you really want the land managers demanding proof of insurance before racking up?
Mei

Trad climber
mxi2000.net
Jun 9, 2018 - 08:37pm PT
I don't know what to think about this particular incident and the events that unfolded afterwards. Or, I think I know what I think, but I also know I'm not in either person's shoes, so my opinion is not worth mentioning other than sending my sympathy to both parties of the unfortunate event.

Even though the sad outcome did not change in the case of the recent accident that killed two superstars in Yosemite, I was relieved to hear that nobody's haul bag was implicated. If that had not been the case, I have no doubt a third person's life would be forever ruined, both emotionally and financially.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Jun 9, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
If the haul bag had ended the career of one of our darlings, oh the outcry!
Dude, you might have better luck coming back as a cedar, that by chance, grows at the base of a nice sport line.

F*#k responsibility, hit and run rules!
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Jun 9, 2018 - 10:49pm PT
We all have to be responsible for our own choices, and if you chose to climb under another party then you accept the risk. But - when you have another party below you, there is a responsibility for being careful and not knocking something down on them.

An anecdote of mine - once I was climbing in the Bugaboos. Were were ascending a terribly loose, steep moraine, and it was impossible to avoid triggering rockfall no matter how careful you were. You know how loose active moraines can be.

A couple of Scots appeared and started ascending directly below us. I warned them of the rockfall danger and recommended that they ascend somewhere besides directly downhill from us, as it was terribly loose. They ignored me and kept following.

We really tried to avoid knocking anything off, but it was impossible to avoid. The Scots were enraged, and were screaming obscenities at us. But they kept ascending directly below us.

Once on top, my partner dropped his glacier glasses, which fell down into the talus. We stopped to fetch his glasses, so the Scots caught up to us.

The Scots started a fist fight over the matter of the rockfall. Our ice axes trumped their fists.

Stupid f*#king Scots.
A Essex

climber
Jun 10, 2018 - 06:07am PT
So I'll play along with the 'accept the risk' line of reasoning for a minute

why then, is this guy being actively berated for asking for $ via a voluntary GoFundme, while two guys roped together, essentially soloing, are being showered with national media attention and money?

I really don't understand.

wrong place at the wrong time = no sympathy and active hostility

knowlingly taking huge risks for speed = much sympathy and outpouring of support
nah000

climber
now/here
Jun 10, 2018 - 07:06am PT
A Essex wrote: "why then, is this guy being actively berated for asking for $ via a voluntary GoFundme"

are you posting to the correct thread?

if so, go back one page and [re]read the last post from eagletusk and then go back to the first page and [re]read his first post...

if this was about a gofundme, i suspect this would be an a lot more boring thread.

as it stands, the story i've seen so far, is that it's about a climber who chose to climb underneath someone else and who is now posting public, vague, possibly "lawyer" reviewed letters about implied potential lawsuits and "restorative justice" because they believe the other person is somehow at least partially responsible for an accident that occurred. this assumed responsibility is despite the apparent fact that the o.p. climbed underneath of the other group without giving that other party a say in the matter [or at least without asking to make sure the other party had liability insurance to cover a mishap or more importantly that the higher up on the rock climber was in agreement with this climber's historically atypical approach to liability and responsibility in the face of an accident (an accident that happened within an endeavor that is both non-necessary/completely voluntary and, as we are reminded with every disclaimer that we ever read in climbing, is an "inherently dangerous activity")]

ie. the distance from your synopsis of what's happening in this thread to what i've seen happening, is about as far as east is from west.
John M

climber
Jun 10, 2018 - 07:11am PT
wrong place at the wrong time = no sympathy and active hostility

knowlingly taking huge risks for speed = much sympathy and outpouring of support

Its not that hard to understand. you left out a part.

Knowingly climbing under another group= you take responsibility if an accident happens that doesn't involve a high level of willful neglect or carelessness.

If he wasn't trying to make the other group pay, then he would get a lot more empathy. Most people here seem to believe that he should accept most of the responsibility because it was his choice to climb under another group. If the group that dropped the bag did it because of negligence, then they would be to blame, but since it was an accident, then in climbing circles, the person climbing below takes the responsibility.

I'm sure the group above is very sorry this happened, but the community feels that they should not be held financially responsible. Hence, this guy doesn't get sympathy.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jun 10, 2018 - 07:49am PT
If there's a crowd then I go elsewhere. I was taught that people drop things and cause rockfall. Climbing under other climbers is somewhat negligent
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Jun 10, 2018 - 10:33am PT
I do not think we want to reduce climbing to a sunday drive. Do you really want the land managers demanding proof of insurance before racking up?

When do the self climbing robots replace the human climbers?

But climbing is more like a nascar race than a Sunday drive. You assume the risk of somebody else's mistake and that is just part of the sport.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jun 10, 2018 - 03:29pm PT
Like others I'm sorry for the OP's pain and long recovery. And had he treated it like just an accident and asked for financial help most here would have had a lot of sympathy.

But A Essex, that hasn't been the approach. The OP himself suggested this "restorative justice" idea. From the Wikipedia link for that:
"Restorative justice is an approach to justice in which the response to a crime is to organize a mediation between the victim(s) and the offender(s), and sometimes with representatives of the wider community. The goal is to negotiate for the offender(s) to deliver a restitution to the victim(s), to the satisfaction of all participants."

Response to a crime? I don't think anyone here would want climbing accidents treated as crimes. That's why we have had such a negative reaction.
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