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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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I'd wager a gofundme or similar type donation site would be best to recoup what you can from not just sympathetic climbers but perhaps from the bag dropper himself (anonymously without any legal ramificatons)....
Involving the courts and lawyers for this is like calling the police when you have a fight with your SO... nothing good will ever come from that.
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alpineblissed
Trad climber
The Town, CA
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^^^^ completely agree with this....i am super sorry to hear @ your freak accident paul and would gladly contribute if you had a gofundme set up. involving courts is just a really sketchy route to take but you also need to take care of yourself.
wishin you the best in recovery~
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RussianBot
climber
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Free supertopo legal advice! You’re welcome!
Sure, lawyers speculate about stuff too. They speculate about what the law means, and about what a judge and jury will decide. They speculate about what’s the best argument to make to convince other people to take their side. Then maybe they go to court to test their speculations against the reality of what the judge and jury will decide. One side speculates one side, the other speculates the other side.
Then one side or the other wins, regardless of what it was that the geniuses on the other side speculated.
You go out and you speculate that you can make the climb. Maybe you fall, maybe you don’t. You speculate that if there’s no-one in front of you on the climb that you’re not going to get hit by a falling haul bag, or falling rock.
Then you go out and climb, and you either get hit by the falling haul bag or the falling rock or you don’t.
Stop speculating if you think that’s gonna work better for you. Good luck!
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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My point of bringing up the Roettgen case is that it shows the futility of suing over climbing accidents, at least in California, which is probably good for the sport as a whole.
In that case it was an official outing of the Univ of California, and the leaders were supposedly qualified to set up topropes. In an official outing, which is similar to a commercial operation, the duty of care would be higher than for any outing with friends or below strangers. Yet even that case was dismissed.
Besides the point now, but in my opinion Roettgen has some questionable logic, that climbing is so hazardous that you are quite likely to die, even in an official top-roping outing. As was discussed in the 2010 thread.
"Defendant, as the moving party on the motion for summary judgment, had the burden of establishing that Norman Roettgen was not taken beyond his level of experience and capability in the activity culminating in his fall, and that the risk to him was not beyond that inherent in any top rope climbing 1047*1047 activity. Defendant met its burden. (§ 437c, subds. (n)(2), (o)(2).) Falling, whether because of one's own slip, a coclimber's stumble, or an anchor system giving way, is the very risk inherent in the sport of mountain climbing and cannot be completely eliminated without destroying the sport itself."
"The risk in hunting (being accidentally mistaken for prey by one's companions or other hunters) at issue in Summers v. Tice, supra, is a risk that does not occur in the absence of someone else's negligence. Inherent in the sport of rock climbing is the fact a fall can occur at anytime, regardless of the negligence of one's coparticipants. Inherent in the sport of rock climbing is the fact a fall can occur at anytime, regardless of the negligence of one's coparticipants."
These statements show the court clearly does not understand much about different types of climbing and that there is a difference between toproping on solid anchors and R/X routes.
"McGowan and Veilleux each had significant experience setting anchors and they believed their system was "bombproof." Other than the anchor failure, no evidence was presented to suggest that this was a faulty conclusion, or that Veilleux and McGowan's selection of the site fell below the sport's norms for anchor installation. In fact, they had considered a separate location for the anchor system, but rejected it because they determined that the one in which they installed the anchors was appropriate for the task.[4] They each belayed down the mountain on the rope anchor system that eventually failed and were followed by another student who, having completed his exercise, also successfully used the system."
"Nor was there any evidence that failure of a nominal[6] lead instructor to double-check the work of two other instructors increased the risk to Mr. Roettgen or that such a procedure was routine for the sport."
Since the two who setup the faulty anchor questioned it somewhat themselves, the least they could have done is to severely bounce test it from the ground.
The fact that the leaders had led previous trips does not prove they had much experience in setting anchors in suspect rock.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1233535
(the route was actually Haystack, not Bears Reach)
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RussianBot
climber
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Fair enough. I’d say that shows the futility of suing over climbing accidents in the same way that people trying and failing to climb 5.16 shows the futility of trying to climb 5.16.
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t-bone
climber
Bishop
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Interesting legal issues aside, this case is really not too complicated.
Man up and take responsibility, you were cragging at the base of El Cap after all.
Your dignity is worth more than the $25K you're wanting to sue for.
Hope you're enjoying your current Baja ride, a trip many can only only dream of.
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Braunini
Big Wall climber
cupertino
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Wow, legal action.
Probably have prospective climbing partners lining up around the block once that's over.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
The Ocean
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Mar 23, 2018 - 03:45am PT
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Mistakes are part of climbing. It's probably the biggest risk factor there is. It's the one that many people tend to write off as not applicable to themselves. They think they are safe climbers because they know how to do things right and that they won't do the dumb things you hear about in accident reports.
False thinking.
You absolutely will make stupid mistakes climbing. Everyone has everyone will everyone does. Fortunately usually it does not kill you or someone else.
Thus simple mistakes are not negligence they are standard risk. The more people the more risk.
Knowing this fact it is almost easier to claim you were negligent by accepting the risk of climbing under others on a newby wall which is probably the worst place to climb under people.
Yet I still would not call that negligence. It's risk taking for your dream.
If some idiot tossed the bag intentionally then yes gross negligence.
I feel for you...it's a horrible thing to have medical costs destroy your life more then the injury itself
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eagletusk
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2018 - 08:40am PT
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Thank you all for your thoughts on this accident.
I have received a response from Jonathan.
I have taken 2 months to deliberate and I have written back to Jonathan and this also is in the form of an open letter.
In this letter you will find that I have laid out a path for Jonathan and I to walk through using the model of restorative justice.
The open letters are here:
http://themountainfold.com/?page_id=1059
More information on restorative justice can be found here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice
For those that have expressed interest in helping me out via go fund me page and those of you that have reached out to me directly as well as my family and friends, I am asking people direct their funds towards the newly established American Alpine Club Climbing Grief Fund.
https://americanalpineclub.org/climbing-grief-fund/
https://chuffed.org/project/climbinggrieffund
I believe this is a honest and very much needed effort by the American Alpine Club and it will do a lot of good for our sport and the world is general. Thank you AAC.
To the best of my ability I have opened the door for Jonathan and I to walk through.
Thank you,
-Paul
P.S. If you would like to reach out to me you can do so here: sobczak.paul+yosemite.accident@gmail.com
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Good Lord... "restorative justice"...?? cray cray bro
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Guernica
climber
dark places
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I missed this the first time around and can't believe what I'm reading. I'm glad you have photos of yourself on your website so I can stay far the f*#k away from you. God, what a dick.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Karma’s a bitch.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Someone is incredibly naive on how lawsuits and collections work - especially for people with no money going after people with no money. Good luck with that.
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Jason Hughes
Big Wall climber
Uk
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Hi all , lurked here for god knows how long , but could not contain myself any longer
My god ! You climbed a wall you got hurt , you took on a sport with massive risks
You rolled the dice and unfortunately you lost , it’s just about money the dollar nothing else
Why you just couldn’t accept a good old apology, adjust ei ching , Darwin adapt overcome
Instead claim nation isn’t it , go fund me ...... world has gone mad truly has ,
I’m sorry you got hurt truly am but if you can’t see the big picture before you stepped up to that face then you are to blame , you knew it could happen but chose to climb regardless
Now I sound harsh I best go cuddle a teddy bear Or something you making me feel I need some restorative closure god day to you sir .
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nah000
climber
now/here
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holy lick.
paul:
1. you were asked two direct questions immediately following your first post: A. do you have evidence that the bag drop was intentional? and B. regardless of the answer to "A." do you have intentions of possibly suing jonathon? as far as i recall seeing, you answered neither and so i'm left to assume that the only reason that you are making all of this public is in a misguided attempt to put social pressure on jonathon because you don't have the money to actually pursue a lawsuit [at least that's the only reason that i have so far been able to imagine that might explain your strategies]. know that in at least my eyes [and based on the other responses, others as well] this strategy has failed miserably and the only thing you've succeeded in doing is squandering any chance at cashing in on some genuine public sympathy and the few bucks a few [myself included] might have been willing to throw at a go fund me to support your healing.
2. and so free legal advice from an amateur internet based lawyer*: if you're going to saber rattle in public make sure you have a sword. otherwise you just appear at minimum careless, maybe feckless and quite possibly metaphorically dickless. ie. if you want to be transparent: then commit fully and be straight with what you are actually intending. and if you're going to sue jonathon: quit saber rattling and just do it already. otherwise you're only assuming that the public reading your "contributions" to the public realm are going to be as dopey as you seem to be. while i will admit that the public [myself included] can be pretty dopey... damn, you have assumed the bar was pretty low if you thought this strategy was going to help your cause. [*and for the dolts: ianal - and for the double dolts: that acronym means something entirely different than some might expect]
jonathon:
1. while it'd happen only if there is a confluence of sequential blue moons, know that, assuming there is no rest of the story that becomes public, i'd be happy to contribute relatively generously to a go fund me if you were req'd to defend yourself in a lawsuit. this would be done purely based on principle due to the absurdity of the situation that you would have found yourself in. of course it seems pretty clear that you'll never have to take me up on this: just wanted you/paul to know how well paul's strategies have alienated at least this member of the initially indifferent public.
2. more free legal advice from an amateur internet based lawyer [hahaha!]: what you've already done by responding went way above and beyond what you were required to by common decency - let alone legally [given paul's continued lack of transparency regarding his intents.] and so to ever answer that goof again, assuming the present path continues, would be a waste of your time/energy in all/any of its faculties.
damn... hope you forget this goofiness paul and get to focusing on the remainder of your recovery.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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RESTORATIVE justice? -WHITE RASTAFARIAN- WHO MOVED THE ROCK BACK INTO THE CRASH ZONE
All those involved, have a different take, some feel they Missed the original location by \_/ This much, so
Maybe, in that very singular case?
But:
Looking for Restorative Justice, for this Accident, Is delusional.
a VERY CLEAR EXAMPLE OF THE ALIENATION OF RATIONAL THOUGHT .
That one could expect,
having chosen to take part in a gravity deifying/challenging related endeavor - where the very nature of the risk, & mitigation of risk, is 90%^ dependent on the decision making process that guides safety, can be grounds for any such thing is ridiculousness.
The accident is more your fault than anyone else's. while ignoring the obvious increased chances of having something drop on you, by choosing a popular climbing area, therefore placing more than 70% of the risk taken on you, & only 30% on the accidental/random other party,
if you go by the -They were there 1st- so were in the location that was yours alone to avoid. . . 30% seems right.
well. . . Ive re-considered, the fault was not yours but the sad roll of the dice, a terrible CASE OF BEING IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG MOMENT
(edit:I re-read the whole megillah - that you were, in fact, sitting on a ledge waiting to rap, -truly very bad luck-, offset by the droppers of the bag being, EMT & WFR, so, able to save your life, very good luck?)
eh?
Oh & that restorative justice? you've got it backwards, coming from you and from an un-provoked accidental event that is an obvious risk if you take part in climbing,
you are beyond an inconsiderate person.
Are you culpable under the law? I don't gnow - most likely?
How dare You choose such a dangerous practice? Your failures to make the proper decisions led to the PTSD that the person -who you propose was responsible(?)- That person, who, you have signaled out, will now suffer, and that is your fault.
You should be held liable for your mistakes & the resulting damages to his on-going quality of life.
Add to that He can never climb again safe in the knowledge that other climbers have his back . . . .
I think that Suspected dropper of said bag has sufficient grounds to sue you for a myriad of things, and I hope if you file his 'Counter' takes you a decade to satisfy.
I MOVED THE ABOVE TRASH FROM THE LAST POST ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE SO THAT THIS
nah000
climber
now/here
Jun 9, 2018 - 02:29pm PT
holy lick.
paul:
1. you were asked two direct questions immediately following your first post: A. do you have evidence that the bag drop was intentional? and B. regardless of the answer to "A." do you have intentions of possibly suing jonathon? as far as i recall seeing, you answered neither and so i'm left to assume that the only reason that you are making all of this public is in a misguided attempt to put social pressure on jonathon because you don't have the money to actually pursue a lawsuit [at least that's the only reason that i have so far been able to imagine that might explain your strategies]. know that in at least my eyes [and based on the other responses, others as well] this strategy has failed miserably and the only thing you've succeeded in doing is squandering any chance at cashing in on some genuine public sympathy and the few bucks a few [myself included] might have been willing to throw at a go fund me to support your healing.
2. and so free legal advice from an amateur internet based lawyer*: if you're going to saber rattle in public make sure you have a sword. otherwise you just appear at minimum careless, maybe feckless and quite possibly metaphorically dickless. ie. if you want to be transparent: then commit fully and be straight with what you are actually intending. and if you're going to sue jonathon: quit saber rattling and just do it already. otherwise you're only assuming that the public reading your "contributions" to the public realm are going to be as dopey as you seem to be. while i will admit that the public [myself included] can be pretty dopey... damn, you have assumed the bar was pretty low if you thought this strategy was going to help your cause. [*and for the dolts: ianal - and for the double dolts: that acronym means something entirely different than some might expect]
jonathon:
1. while it'd happen only if there is a confluence of sequential blue moons, know that, assuming there is no rest of the story that becomes public, i'd be happy to contribute relatively generously to a go fund me if you were req'd to defend yourself in a lawsuit. this would be done purely based on principle due to the absurdity of the situation that you would have found yourself in. of course it seems pretty clear that you'll never have to take me up on this: just wanted you/paul to know how well paul's strategies have alienated at least this member of the initially indifferent public.
2. more free legal advice from an amateur internet based lawyer [hahaha!]: what you've already done by responding went way above and beyond what you were required to by common decency - let alone legally [given paul's continued lack of transparency regarding his intents.] and so to ever answer that goof again, assuming the present path continues, would be a waste of your time/energy in all/any of its faculties.
damn... hope you forget this goofiness paul and get to focusing on the remainder of your recovery.
Could get the rightful respect it deserves.
it sounds like a terrible and ugly injury, Im sorry for you, and would be the 1st to call out a climber, as here , who showed callous indifference, that was not the case here.
I hope, given the severity of the injury & compounding complexities of the chosen treatment, then infection, and so delayed P. therapy during the protracted full healing time,
& suffering still - I'm sure, beyond the not un-substantial physical, but psychological as well. That I hope you have found some thing to help with
how you doing going forward in life if you never get any further resolution?
there was never any informal or implied obligation to provide you with a higher level of safety/security, than you had chosen to provide for yourself.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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(HAD A FISH ON-LINE - THATS WHO I WAS ASKING, HE DELETED , SO I 'LL JUST LEAVE THIS HERE*) DID YOU CATCH THIS ? [Click to View YouTube Video]I had hoped that by posting the wide why of a video, it would have at least given pause.
was not trolling,
this is an important line,
It needs to be kept in the other sport, that is also climbing.
That other climbing, that happens in glorified airplane hangers on cool sculptures with attachable holds and survivable waivers.
it has to be a line,
there are acts of mayhem that occur not so much at random, but often due to un-for seen conditions/events that occur outdoors. . .
Important to the discussion:
1) he chose to go climbing/cragging at the base of El Cap in the middle of wall season. Was sitting (unawares, not stanced in the moment fully)which is fine, on a fair day at the Gunks but not June !9 at the top of Little John Pinnacle, (below an active wall.)
2)
3)Climber was lucky that skilled 1st responders were on the scene,
willing to jump in, when they could have "Left To Go Get Help"
4) Now, as lucky as can be to be whole, has seen it in his right to ask for, demand ? anything more while possibly defaming those good Samaritans . . .
Trump.
Pussy Grabber & Thief
Repugnant tyrant-wana'be
leader of the deplorables
Jun 9, 2018 - 03:42pm PT
What a bunch of hooey because everyone knows that it’s 90% your faulty decision making!! And when I say 90% it’s not like I made that sh#t up either - I measured that 90% with my own objectively double blind mind.
Yes, pot, the kettle sure is black.
Pussy Grabber & Thief! Is That You Who yoodooin?(#howmany?paidwhorwivz)
% value of decision: choice of Location,=? Choice to sit=? Choice to top out as a party of 3, at some point the %value of the choices made far out weigh the % value of the accidental actions of others.
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Trump
climber
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What a bunch of hooey because everyone knows that it’s 90% your faulty decision making!! And when I say 90% it’s not like I made that sh#t up either - I measured that 90% with my own objectively double blind mind.
Yes, pot, the kettle sure is black.
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A Essex
climber
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Wow, some real haters here.
Regardless of how they are dealing with their grief, dude nearly lost his arm for real for the crime of being in the path of a heavy bag?!
yet, those that lost their lives while essentially soling while roped together with minimal or no gear are celebrated? not to say that they shouldn't be, but the cognitive disconnect here is palpable
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