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Ballo
Trad climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
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Sierra Ledge Rat, I think I understand what you're getting at now, but you can't just lump Hobbes ideas with Locke's just because they used a similar term.
Locke used the concept of the social contract to try to define the limits of what the state should be in an idealized State of Nature. He used the same term as Hobbes, but purely as a mental device to frame the discussion or idea. Hobbes was authoritarian while Locke actually argued that a state which did not follow the implicit "contract" between individual and state could rightly be revolted against.
So while the same term is used to frame what aspect of political theory those authors are addressing, the actual political theories are vastly different. You are correct to say, I believe, that the Declaration of Independence was at least in part influenced by Locke's political theories.
Edit: it's unlikely that Thomas Jefferson was the author. It was more likely Paine, but he wasn't of proper stature (as a bankrupt publisher) to take credit. Thomas Jefferson was a published author and never used old English words like "hath".
E2: Paine, so far as I know, was most influenced most by the works of Edmund Burke.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Jan 14, 2018 - 10:30pm PT
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If all nation states are founded on mass murder and slavery, does that mean that the USA is the "best country" founded on mass murder and slavery? Best of breed?
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John M
climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 10:40pm PT
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After Obama was elected there were conservatives on this forum saying that there would be a civil war fought with guns within one year. They were gun owners and proud of it and the intent was obvious. I was in Oakhurst in the grocery store standing in line and a group of four people were near me and were talking about a civil war starting soon, but it wouldn't last long because liberals don't own any guns. So I walked up to them and asked them which one of them was planning to shoot me as I voted for Obama and I just wanted to meet the person who would pull the trigger. I thought about disabusing them of the idea that liberals don't own guns, or know how to shoot, but I have tried having that conversation on this forum and it never seems to sink in, so I have given up on that.
Then I went to lunch and a man was on the phone cancelling his bible study group because he was just too upset to teach the bible. He thought the world was going to end soon because Obama was elected. He was in the booth behind me and I could hear everything that he said. I thought it kind of strange that someone who purports to believe in God would not turn to what he believed was God's word at a time when he was distraught, and so I turned and told him so. I also told him that I believed in God and I voted for Obama. That shut him up and he left in a huff. Which again I thought was funny, but also sad.
then one of the waitresses came up to me and thanked me for speaking up because she was offended by what the man was saying, but didn't have the courage to speak up.
So to me both sides do their nuttiness.
The people that I am fed up with are the people who can't see their own bias and refuse to even try. I don't care if they are liberal or conservative.
Yep, blah, blah, blah. Kettle, meet pot.
Exactly..
For Lituya.. Ed has called out liberals in the past. So have I. The conservatives rarely notice. There are a number of people posting on this thread right now that say or have said, that Chris, the owner of the forum, only bans conservatives and never liberals. It doesn't seem to sink in to them when many people explain how many liberals have been banned for poor behavior, and how many of us liberals have led the way to get them banned, or try to get them to change. Boorish behavior is boorish behavior. One's political leanings have nothing to do with it. But People believe what they want to believe.
Your first post smacked of troll. Most of your posts smell like troll posts. We know that you know what a troll is, because you didn't complain. So pretending that someone else started it is kind of ridiculous, because a troll post is meant to cause trouble.
Like your mistake with Reilly. You don't know the players, but pretend that you do, or act like you know what we believe. That is boorish behavior.
But sure.. Ed started it.
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John M
climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 11:07pm PT
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I have looked in the mirror many times Cosmic. I'm sorry that you can't see that.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 11:19pm PT
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Thanks, John M, for that much-needed rebuke. And thank you too for reining in the folks responsible for the quotes below--all made here by assorted liberals in this thread.
Not sure who you mean when you say "we." Moderators? Apparently I've upset one of the regulars here--and I suspect it's not Mr. Ed. No matter, I just love pointing out hypocrisy where I see it. If you want to maintain a bobble-head society here, then I'll be on my way. If you are upset about my tone or so-called "trolling," well, again, I'd ask you to look at what you ignore:
If you still support this as#@&%e you are a racist.
if he died tomorrow I'd throw a party.
if you support him and died tomorrow I'd throw a party.
there's no room for you POSs on this planet.
Fu ck OFF. And Die.
An orange fat fuk...
with little hands...
Trump supporters are IDIOTS!!!...
One and ALL!!!... FACT!!!...
Trump supporters are racist, ignorant, and VERY un-American...
No if's, and's, or orange fat fuk doubt's about it...
Ahhh, JoeM, another racist pig. We need more like you to leave. I am expecting Images of the Statue Of Liberty destroyed. Blown to bits ; exploded,
in photo shop or graphics, cartoons even, just hope not for realz The trash "conservatives" that post here are simply racists ecstatic that the ass clown in the white house will give voice to what they have always wanted to say publicly....despite the forefathers of Reilly et al coming from sh#t holes themselves.
There is no defending this racist c*#ks@cker and if you are then your no different than him. What has no place in our society is Trump supporting nut lickers on their knees eating corn from Putin's SH!THOLE...
"Deplorables" is a gross understatement...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 14, 2018 - 11:19pm PT
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my personal attack was in response to your personal attack on me on another thread
the difference, and you don't seem to get it, is that I am a person, and you are an anonymous poster. It could hardly be a personal attack on you, I have no idea that you are a person, it is an attack on your anonymous avatar, which I am sure is not like you at all in real life, if it were you'd have no problem posting under your identity.
If I have a source of pride, it is that I wouldn't post anything here that I wouldn't wish to be associated with in real life.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 11:27pm PT
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the difference, and you don't seem to get it, is that I am a person, and you are an anonymous poster. It could hardly be a personal attack on you, I have no idea that you are a person, it is an attack on your anonymous avatar
You'd make a great B-29 pilot. So, again, should everyone here reveal? Or am I required to move to California?
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John M
climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 11:35pm PT
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Thanks, John M, for that much-needed rebuke. And thank you too for reining in the folks responsible for the quotes below--all made here by assorted liberals in this thread.
yes.. the liberals are mean. so are the conservatives. You are included in that with your snide thanks and your mean spirited first post. I have tried calling out the liberals on this forum. Some learned and changed, many did not. When the forum first started we tried self policing. It didn't work. then Chris tried banning people. It hasn't really worked either. The trolls keep showing up and basically run the place. You included. So lots of good people have left the forum and those of us who hang on sometimes try again. But Don't worry. I will leave you to your trollish behavior.
Edit: and most of us here have met each other. There is even a thread where most everyone posted pictures of themselves. The forum was fun for awhile. It still has the occasional highlight. And some people here have made lifetime friends from this forum. But the trolls pervade.
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 11:39pm PT
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Not to worry, I'm off on assignment next week for a few months and will once again be too busy to entertain.
FWIW, I do understand your predicament. But just consider the guy who posted the mirror might be on to something.
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John M
climber
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Jan 14, 2018 - 11:42pm PT
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But just consider the guy who posted the mirror might be on to something.
There you go again thinking that you have the whole story.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 15, 2018 - 12:14am PT
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You'd make a great B-29 pilot. So, again, should everyone here reveal? Or am I required to move to California?
you choose to be anonymous, in so doing it would seem you have nothing to complain about when you're challenged, no one here has any idea who you are
should every body be revealed? I think it would be a very different forum and probably better in terms of climber/climbing content, with a lot less of the other stuff
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Lituya
Mountain climber
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Jan 15, 2018 - 01:31am PT
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Read again the death threats/wishes and dripping hatred posted by liberals in this thread alone--and then ask yourself again why a conservative might wish to remain anonymous here.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jan 15, 2018 - 07:17am PT
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We know from Roman historians and accounts from Roman Generals and soldiers that the Britons, Germans and Northmen were an idle people with the exception of raiding and war. They were either naked, covered in mud or wore animal hides.
These people were poor at cultivating the land, lived on meat and foraging off the land. They tattooed their bodies and faces and treated their woman poorly.
It was often argued that they should be subjugated or slaughtered because they could never exist as civilized men.
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Jan 15, 2018 - 07:36am PT
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Actually, that sounds a lot like Camp 4, circa 1970-80. Maybe it is different now. I remember once in 1980 a woman walked through Camp 4; there was a dull murmur crescendoing into a roar as the denizens exited from their tents to see this rare phenomenon. But when I went back in 2010 there were actually children present.
My mother claims that when she worked in the Valley in the 50s the female employees were warned to stay away from Camp 4.
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Bethesda
Trad climber
Bethesda
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Jan 15, 2018 - 07:44am PT
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When Peter Brown, a refugee from Oxford, was teaching at Berkeley in the 1980s he gave a lecture in which he said that, while the Roman Empire was flourishing, the Jerries were still running naked through the woods.
The Berkeley German-American Students organization filed a complaint, alleging that Peter Brown had libelled the German people. The dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, Robert Middlekauf, threw them out of his office on the grounds that the German people were pretty much libel-proof. And because Peter Brown was Peter Brown, and thus, like Donald Trump, could say whatever he wanted, the Classics and the History Departments being so grateful to have him.
True story.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jan 15, 2018 - 07:51am PT
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Read again the death threats/wishes and dripping hatred posted by liberals in this thread alone--and then ask yourself again why a conservative might wish to remain anonymous here.
Oh my.
Some of the most rabid conservatives on this forum have stayed in my home, I’ve hung with at climbing areas, camped around and done Facelift with. I have to say NEVER has our wildly different politics affected our relationship in the domain where we have same interests. It’s rare politics even comes up. Amy debate is usually about effective hauling, best climbs, best camp cook, etc.
Whomever you are, you have little to worry about getting “in person” battered.
Susan
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Jan 15, 2018 - 08:00am PT
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Contractor and Bethesda for the win on this topic for the day.
thanks, guys, for the humor and insight.
cheers
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 15, 2018 - 08:06am PT
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Read again the death threats/wishes and dripping hatred posted by liberals in this thread alone--and then ask yourself again why a conservative might wish to remain anonymous here.
perhaps take it as a challenge to yourself to present your arguments in a way that would not elicit those sorts of response?
And anyway, you rarely post outside of the political threads, this one being an apparent favorite of yours, and you post using an avatar created, apparently, just to allow you to post without an identity.
These are all your choices. You are certainly complicit.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Jan 15, 2018 - 08:20am PT
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Bethesda- I like the camp 4 reference and this all sounds too much like my rental where my son and his college age buddies live in squalor. Like the Britons, they too suck at cultivation based on their marijuana crop last season.
Let's all admit that most of us support our brainless, transitional youth. We all know they are one, overdue parking ticket in the glovebox, from being in debt and homeless. It's a constant battle to keep my two sons from sliding into third world status. One called me this morning with a tick buried deep in his belly button- He's on his way to a clinic which I will have to pay for- this is a science major at a notable university no less.
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