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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think:
1) team safety is a team discussion;
2) team members have to be candid about their knowledge of safety systems;
3) the most conservative team safety decision consistent with the team's safety competence be adopted.
This puts a lot on the team members being forthcoming about what they know. I've belayed with many different systems but I'm not familiar with all of them, the safety of my partner depends on my competence so I'm not going to tell my partner I know how do use a device I am not totally familiar with...
...you get to choose your partners.
This is especially true as there is not always time to discuss the choices. Like Jim, I'll often use a hip belay when it is fast and safe, I don't always discuss it with my partners before hand and it does often elicit comment either by the partner or adjacent climbing teams....
Similarly, if it would be "safer" for a competent team to move fast, say soloing or simul-climbing, but for a member that is not able to solo or simul-climb safely, the team faces the choice of doing it anyway and risking an accident, or moving slowly and risking a "suboptimal" outcome.
If Mei asked me to use a Gri-Gri (I usually use an ATC-like device because of the routes I do, generally no falling and many rappels necessary) I'd use one after making sure she knows how much experience I've had using one (mostly sport and gym climbing). Climbing with her I could become more competent using it outside on longer routes. Does she want to take the risk? What are the tradeoffs?
Ghost brings up an important question, that is: what happens if the belayer is incapacitated at the moment that they need to arrest a fall? Auto-locking devices are obviously an important consideration if that situation is likely for a particular climb. I don't think this is the case for the vast majority of climbers, but some subset of the climbing community goes out onto ground where the likelihood of this sort of scenario is high, auto-locking devices have an advantage.
JLP's comments can be generalized: make sure you know how to use whatever system properly, your partner's life depends on it.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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I refuse to climb with anyone who insists that I use a GriGri. I hate being belayed by them, but have finally accepted that I will never get the slack I want, when I want it and that I may be pulled off by the belay. You can't rap with it, so what good is it?
I will stick to climbing with partners who know how to belay, whatever the tool they choose might be.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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As mentioned grigris aren't necessarily safer. Just anecdotally but I've heard of more climbers dropped when using them than other devices. Mostly grigri noobs that panic and hold the device locked open by mistake (when lowering or when paying out rope quickly to the leader). They are more complex and less intuitive than an ATC type device. And can promote bad habits as mentioned. However humans are fallible and I like the idea of the autolock backing them up and more foolproof for FF2 events.
Like tradmanclimbs says I use what the leader requests and if I'm leading I'll use whatever the belayer likes. I will ask for a grigri type if my belayer is significantly lighter than me, so if I tee bag them they can use both hands to protect themselves and I don't worry about being dropped. And for walls, since there are long leads where the belayer may not be paying full attention and so they can eat/put on another layer, etc. more safely.
I think it's fine to ask your partner to use the device you want, but I wouldn't demand it. There are some drawbacks to autolockers as mentioned: short roping the leader, must carry another device for double rope raps, more of a pain to pay rope out for the leader, heavier, and potential of misuse (mainly by grigri noobs).
moosedrool: check the directions for unblocking the reverso in guide mode. You use a sling to pull up on the biner that locks the rope. It releases pretty easily.
I'm not as "experienced" as many folks here, I learned to climb in the days of tube type "ATCs". But I learned the hip belay and use it on easy terrain where the rope is moving fast. It's almost like the older the method the less secure and faster it is, while the newer method/device is more secure but more of a pain the feed rope quickly. Anyway there's been multiple times I'm belaying the follower up the last pitch of a climb while I'm using a hip belay at the top of a crag, and someone walks by and just stares like I'm a dinosaur. I've even had people ask if it's safe. LOL.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Just anecdotally but I've heard of more climbers dropped when using them than other devices.
This is my experience as well. And I have seen it happen in real time more than once. I have never seen someone dropped on an ATC.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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So, if you are still actively climbing and still use ATC, ... So more to the point of the question...reads to me like the OP needs to go find some new partners.
All my partners are experts with the GriGri, mostly wear belay glasses, never short rope me, always a soft catch after a short fall, generally at least 20 yrs experience - and it really isn't that complicated.
All these partners started a long time ago with ancient devices. They're learners - they're not standing around bragging about how long they've been here as they show off some antique that curiously has never worn out.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2017 - 02:34pm PT
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I want to thank all of you for participating in this conversation. Good discussions and I hear both sides. As you see in my subject line, my question is not about what your partners do for you or make you do, in the context of belay devices; it’s about what you are willing to do for your partners after you take yourself out of the thinking. I appreciate anyone who give this subject some serious thoughts, whatever you decide to do.
In my previous climbing life (2003-2005), I used ATC for trad and Grigri for cragging. It never occurred to me to lug a Grigri on a multi pitch climb. After I returned to climbing in late 2015, I forgot what triggered my thinking (my guess is being 10 years more mature made me value other people’s lives and the impact of their lives on their loved ones a bit more), I started my quest for a suitable belay device (again for trad) that could provide extra assurance of safety beyond what my own belay skills provide. Following are some of my thoughts on a few devices I’ve used that may not have been made obvious in online reviews.
First, I’m confident about my usage of ATC. I like it because it allows me to be lazy. With a Grigri, I know that I need to always actively watch out for the kinks below the device because nothing stops a rope feed cold like a little kink induced loop. While this can be easily avoided if the belayer is an active thinker, constantly proactively addressing potential rope hiccups, ATC is most forgiving of such hiccups even if the belayer just goes through robotic motions without activating brain cells. Incidents had proven that I had a solid instinct about locking up my brake hand and not letting go even when I’m slammed violently into the rock (usu. due to weight difference which made me forever mindful of that aspect), but they probably further motivated my quest.
I was excited about Edelrid Mega Jul. It looks most familiar (just like my ATC). See this video https://vimeo.com/53332541 if you’ve never seen it in real life. @NutAgain, the video clearly demonstrates its usage with double ropes. It’s extremely light weight and versatile - lead belay, guide belay, and rappel — it handles them all. However, I soon discovered the short comings. Most ropes I climb on (my own or my partners') are not skinny because we do not get pro deals and need our gear to last. They do not feed as nicely in this small device. In guide mode, the pull is tendonitis inducing. The biggest short coming is it requires the thumb in the loop to facilitate fast payout of rope. I don’t want my fragile thumb to be a part of the setup. I can’t think of bad and gross scenarios, but I like my hands to be away from my device; not to mention, having the thumb engaged at the device will interfere with my ability to shake out kinks below me. Old ropes always have kinks in them.
No doubt Grigri (now version 2 and soon version Plus) is the MOST popular auto-lock (they call it assist braking) device. To anyone who claim that Grigri equals short roping or even dropping, please allow me to be blunt — open up your mind and be humble. If you don’t learn the skills, Grigri can be everything bad; but if you are willing to spend the time to master the skills, Grigri can provide the best belay experience a leader can ask for. That said, there are a few things I don’t like about it (in comparison with what we have available today):
1) Heavy
2) Moving parts on the device.
3) This is the last straw for me: I find that the bend to the side (required for fast rope payout) might ever slightly introduce a little twist into the rope when feeding through. The effect becomes prominent on full 80m rope cragging, where at the end of the lowering, I have to constantly shake out the kinks.
4) Designed for right handed people.
This is where Click-Up would shine. Light (My BD ATC Guide 88g; ClickUp 120g), no moving parts, feeds just like an ATC, and rope goes straight in and out, also works the same whichever hand you prefer for braking. Watch the video on this excellent review piece: https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=3498
I understand the “incapacitated partner” arguement, but my family and I have discussed acceptable risk at length and I’d put that in the “acts of god” category that I’m allowed to flout(along with massive rockfall, accidents caused by other drivers, freak storms, etc). I hear ya. I'm one who often times point out other people's overreaction with safety concerns. I accept acts of god myself. But when it comes to other people lives, I wonder how I can live with myself if something bad happens to my partner when I know it can have been avoided if had made a tiny change on my part, say using a different device (see Ghost's example).
as long as they know they'll probably be shorted on lead cause I suck at using it. Using a Grigri properly is not rocket science and only takes willing min, active thinking, and practice. I've had plenty of short while being belayed on ATC as well. But in reality, I've noticed that a lot of leaders are nervous jerky leaders. I'll explain. Some leaders, when they are about to clip, they jerk up the rope very fast. Sure, one tends to do that when nervous, but you can't be nervous all the time, right? Or can you? In that kind of jerky motion, it really does not help the belayer. An experienced belayer can anticipate that and still pay out rope fast, but it's hell for a belayer no matter how familiar he/she is with the device, especially if the belayer is just reactive (vs. active). It especially does not help when a leader, usually a sport climber, constantly switching between taking (little slack is desired) and clipping (after taking, suddenly stands up, and pulls up rope hard trying to make next clip desperately). In that case, you bring the short on yourself.
Belaying is the easiest part of climbing. That was once my thinking as well. Not any more. Once I had the revelation about the art of belaying (a year ago), I have become a little obsessed about perfecting it. I've make plenty of mistakes, big and small, and I learned my lessons, but I also realize that I'll forever be a student in that department for the rest of my climbing life, because there is always something more to learn. Belaying is far more than just being safe and efficient. Say being safe gives the belayer a passing grade 60, being efficient may give you 80. From there to the perfect score 100, there are many subtleties. And being able to realize those subtleties and execute well can provide one a lot of satisfaction (not to mention giving the climber the best experience). I'd love to put down some thoughts on that. If anyone is also interested in this topic, please hold your thoughts. I'll start another thread on that - the art of belaying - in the near future. In the mean time, some food for thoughts, if people can get your hands on this excellent book: Advanced Rock Climbing: Expert Skills and Techniques, by Topher Donahue, please do so. Makes a great holiday present as well. I once joked that I should hand out a photo copy of his Chapter "Belaying for Mastery" to all my belayers, except that I was not joking (just never did it). I loved the term "active belay."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Thanks for starting the discussion. I have my own system which works well for me. I want partners who have a system that works well for them. I really don’t care what the system is, I do care that it’s tried and true for the person using it.
Just back fron a nice multi pitch ice climb...once again my ATC filled the bill for me both going up and coming back down.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mei
I have to belay someone who is over 125 pounds heavier than I.
Tried the grigriII, and it was somewhat problematic, but the
Trango Cinch is great. I'm not worried about a bit more weight,
but I can keep my partner safe with it. As long as I am anchored
to something. I purchase the Edelrid Ohm to help with sport climbing
(okay, an oxymoron), but haven't used it yet to see if it helps with
my heavier partner. . .
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Mei,
I meant no offense to your question and you brought up a good point.
My wife weighs 110lbs I weigh 200lbs. She likes slack to give a soft catch, I hate slack cause of rope stretch and hitting a ledge. I think that you need to have good communication with your partner. Belaying is easy. Its when the rope runs out; do you have your shoes on and belay broken down (you only have 2 ft of rope left) and start simulclimbing, good communication of that scenario is important but not hard. Are you rapping or lowering? Good communication. Hanging belay? Are they leaving the belay to the left or the right? The device is of no concern as long as you know what you are doing. Ultimately my partners are all 25 year friends. I have no worries. But I still won't lower off, I rappel. I limit my exposure to my amazing belayers regardless.
I think I'm becoming an old fart!
Cheers!
S...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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More than handful or so of slack is bad and the mark of an unskilled belayer.
You have to hop a bit as the rope catches - higher if the climber is a lot lighter, maybe not at all if the climber is heavier. Takes practice and tuning for each partner. This is the soft catch, it is not falling a long ways and possibly hitting something at high speed or having to waste energy to get back to where you fell.
That said, the bigger the weight difference, the less safe for both. I’ve seen serious injuries for both leader and belayer / light and heavy. I would never climb with someone 90 lbs different than me.
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clarkolator
climber
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Partners are the most valuable thing. So yeah, whatever is good for you. Learning is good, and hopefully you'll go with my safety obsessions.
As far as my practice with belay devices, I'm basically the same as donini, except only 40 years.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Partners are the most valuable thing.
Damn right. Way upthread I posted a note about how my partner got nailed by rockfall, and his gri-gri saved my life. But that doesn't mean gri-gris are awesome. Or better than your favorite hunk of metal.
On one of my first days rock climbing, I caught a 30-foot factor-1 fall on a hip belay. Didn't hurt me or my partner, and in fact seemed to verify everything he'd taught me. (Back then, there weren't no "belay devices.")
Since then I've caught a zillion falls on a dozen belay devices, and been caught on a zillion falls by partners using a dozen belay devices. They all have their pluses and minuses, and there isn't a single one of them that works all by itself, whether the belayer is experienced or clueless.
But there is one thing that I think is basic: If your partner is knocked out or killed, an autoblock will probably keep you off the deck.
Does that mean you should always use a gri-gri (or one of the many modern equivalents)? Of course not. Donini belaying me on a hip belay is a whole lot safer than some gym noob belaying me on whatever modern metal sculpture. But if I pull off a block, and it kills Donini on the way down, his ATC ain't gonna save me.
Five-day alpine horrror show? ATC all the way. Working new routes on a crumbling choss pile? Auotbloc all the way.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^OK then🙂
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WBraun
climber
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I've caught a zillion falls on a dozen belay devices, and been caught on a zillion falls
Zillion falls .....
Are you sure you even know how to climb?
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Ghost pretty much sums it up for me...
but as per an answer to the op's interesting question:
single pitch: sure, you as my partner are the boss. if autolocks make you more comfortable then sure thing. plus it's easy to get complacent and an autolock can't hurt.
multipitch/alpine: nah, you'd have to convince me that the idealized beauty of an autolock catching a fall even if the belayer is unconscious is actually practically safer in the aggregate when people [noobs or not] do also manage to occasionally drop people with the more complicated gri gris and their variations.
ie. my opinion is that people's regular attachment to gri gris and their ilk is based in theoretical thought styled experiment rather than in an actual real life across the board practical safety advantage.
ie, ie. while "safer" is usually better: ultimately the primary safety is consciousness and sometimes the "safer" can habituate minor and not so minor inattentions, thus negating, in certain contexts, their "safety" advantage.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Are you sure you even know how to climb?
Of course not. If I knew how to climb, I wouldn't fall. I wouldn't need ropes or belayers or sticky rubber or metal gizmos. I'd just float to the top of rocks and mountains.
But since I'm just a human, I'll never reach the plane of perfect climbing, and will continue to up my fall numbers from zillions to gazillions.
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WBraun
climber
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and his gri-gri saved my life
According to time and circumstance for that very moment, that device became awesome ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Yeah, and that happens about once per 10,000 drops when the device is less than awesome.
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Degaine
climber
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Healyje wrote:
In the case of autoblocking devices, let's be upfront about why they've taken over the world and it's not about 'belaying' as they were designed for hanging not belaying.
To my knowledge with regard to the Grigri, Petzl has always used the term "assisted braking," but I don't have any ads from the early nineties. In any case, that is the term they have used for at least the last 15 years.
With regard to "autoblocking," this comes directly from the French, "autobloquant," which refers to both a type of friction hitch (similar to a kleimheist or prusik) as well as what in the US we refer to as "guide mode" when belaying a second with devices such as the Kong gigi, the ATC guide, the Reverso (all versions), etc.
Whether one likes or dislikes the Grigri (or the Cinch, etc.), which you clearly don't, I think it's important to get the terminology right if your intention is to share knowledge and experience with others. If it's simply to rant, then disregard the above.
Healyje wrote:
And in their facility for 'just working' 99% of the time there is a whole unspoken spectre of them promoting really lousy belaying behaviors on such a mass scale they all but turn the demographic into a random dropping generator. That, and god forbid you should be one of the 1% when they simply don't work.
None of the materials published from the device manufacturers reads, "works 99% of the time," and as far as I know most of them (from Petzl to Mammut to Edelrid to DMM, etc.) have videos on their websites indicating how to (1) properly belay and (2) properly belay with their devices.
While I don't hate all-things gym climbing, after reading your posts on the topic of belaying and/or assisted-braking devices over the years on ST and MP, I would agree that gyms have a lot to do with the task of belaying being minimized in importance. The short duration of the belay/lead test combined often with inexperienced gym staff tasked conducting themselves creates an atmosphere, in my humble opinion, that minimizes the importance of the belay, considering it secondary to climbing instead of an integral part.
Some guides and instructors are at fault, too, especially those who started using the Grigri 20 years ago, not only by using improper technique for the device (taking hand off the brake side of the rope) but also furthering the myth that it is a device for beginners (to compensate for their inexperience).
The issue for me personally has nothing to do with a particular device - which is just a too for the job, and sometimes one's hip or a horn on a ridgeline will do just fine - but learning and practicing proper belay technique.
Of course your mileage (a lot more than mine) may vary and point of view be much different.
Cheers.
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Degaine
climber
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To the OP,
Similarly to Rgold, on multi-pitch routes I always climb with doubles, so use either an ATC-Guide, Reverso 4, or a combination of a tube device (usually ATC) and the Kong Gigi. Only recently did the CT Alpine UP hit the market and I have yet to try it, but am interested.
I like the guide plate for belaying a second and find both devices (ATC-Guide and Reverso-4) belay both a leader and a second well. While I lack the experience of Rgold when it comes to catching a factor 2 fall using a hip belay, I have caught someone 30kg heavier than me with the ATC-Guide and 8.6mm double ropes.
For sport climbing, I pretty much belay exclusively with the Grigri. I only climb with partners that I trust implicitly to belay me, and am comfortable with whatever device they choose to use (a Grigri or a tube-style device). If I were to ever meet Healyje in person, I would have no problem with him providing me with a hip belay while on lead as long as he promised to smile and pretend like he enjoys climbing and the company of others.
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