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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 7, 2017 - 05:06pm PT
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This question is for currently active (as of end of 2017 as we now have a lot more options on the market than many years ago) trad climbers who are still using tube-like belay devices without an autolock/self-arrest capability, such as an ATC.
I learned to belay with an ATC just like many people here did. Over the years, I've gone through many iterations of belay devices. Although I have trained myself to be the best and safest belayer I can be (I don't chat when I lead belay and am constantly evaluating the leader's fall potential and adjust my stance and slack actively), I these days only belay with an autolock device even when I do long multipitch climbs where weight matters. It's not that I don't trust myself. I've just heard too many stories where things can happen that are out of a climber's control. Rocks dropped from above. Belayer passed out due to unexpected health issue. Leader fell on the belayer unexpectedly, etc. etc. All could happen (to me as a belayer). Plus, as much as I strive, I know I'm fully capable of being distracted without knowing it. I wanted to give my partner that added layer of safety no matter what happens to me.
Recently my practice has been: I carry a Grigri 2 for belay (as a leader from above or a follower from below). I carry a Edelrid Mega Jul as a backup autolock belay device as well as a rappel device.
In the near future, with my new purchases, I plan to: carry a Climbing Technology Click Up (link to video) for lead belay (Edit: to handle double rope lead belay, the similar device is called Alpine-up), and a Kong Gigi (link to Steph Davis' post) for belaying a follower and for rappel.
Back to my original question... because of my heightened sense of safety, I also wish all my belayers could provide me that extra assurance of safety. Of course, I never made that demand, yet. It's not safe to shove an unfamiliar belay device into the hands of a belayer with whom you will climb only once. But even with people I climb with on a somewhat regular basis, I find it difficult for me to bring it up. There are a few reasons why climbers resist changing their ATC type device:
1) there is certain pride in still using ATC as they feel that it's a sign of their past experience and one thing that distinguishes them from the new wave climbers;
2) they feel confident that they can provide the best and safest belay and will not let their brake hand go even if they drop dead. They might feel insulted if any doubt is raised.
3) they tried other auto-lock devices and did not like how they handle. Of course, they blame on the device. I personally believe that you can get auto-lock devices that handle just as well once you master the usage skills.
4) they are weight weenies. (Added after seeing some responses. Hope not too offensive as this is a common saying among cyclists. I am one to a certain degree.)
So, if you are still actively climbing and still use ATC, would you ever consider switching to an autolock belay device, even if for no other reason but your partner's safety?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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For whatever it's worth, I wouldn't be making this post if my partner hadn't been using an autolock.
I pulled off a huge block, and went sailing. The block shattered somewhere below me with a piece the size of a brick taking my belayer in the kneecap. Tough as he is, Tom passed out. I stayed off the ground -- and stayed alive and unharmed -- because he was using a gri-gri.
That said, there are situations where a hip belay is just the ticket, so I always bring my hips along.
Oh, and if you need something that can handle double ropes, you need something other than a gri-gri, but there are plenty of choices now, and Mei's Alpine Up is pretty good.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I used a hip belay for a number of years and held a 100 ft. leader fall with no harm to myself or my partner. I now use an ATC and like it's lightweight and ease of use. I have a Gri Gri that I have only used a half dozen times. I still use a hip belay when the follower is on easy terrain...although I sometimes get strange looks when they get to the belay station.
I feel fine with my current situation and feel no need to change. In fifty plus years of climbing I have never dropped anyone. I am a firm believer that the person operating the equipment is more important then the equipment.
Today with gyms and the concurrent drop in the overall climbing IQ, I am not comfortable with someone I do not know belaying or, most importantly, lowering me. What to do? Do I put faith in auto lock systems operated by people that I have little faith in?
The answer, I imagine, is to have the right partner.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
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@Ghost, thanks for sharing your story.
@donini, the right partner also might lose consciousness for whatever reason. If I am climbing with a partner I'm not familiar with, I definitely hope he is using an auto-locking belay device that he's familiar with. But I don't request. (P.s. I don't fall either.)
@Jeremy, that's the thing. I don't want to impose the request on others, but I wonder if others might someday see the possible risk factors and would be willing to make that decision on their own for the sake of maximizing their partners' safety.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Use my gri gri regularly on the ground, only take it off the deck if aid climbing, which I try to avoid these days. If one of my old partners demanded it I’d acquiesce and mock them for the duration of the climb. If a new partner, that’d likely be the last straw. Purely weight based for me.
I understand the “incapacitated partner” arguement, but my family and I have discussed acceptable risk at length and I’d put that in the “acts of god” category that I’m allowed to flout(along with massive rockfall, accidents caused by other drivers, freak storms, etc).
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WBraun
climber
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I have only used grigri since it first came out for belay, nothing else.
I carry it on lead and use it to belay second up.
If second can't make it and stars whining the grigri is locked off and I free solo off.
The second then yells for rescue and I get paid ......
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Rolfr
Sport climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
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This April I was dropped 20 ft in Red Rocks sport climbing by a friend of a friend who had been climbing for 9 years. Hair line Tib fracture and now arthritic. He insisted that he was a safe atc belayer. After a couple takes backing off a hard sequence, my next call for take , found my instantly dropped to the deck. His explanation “ I was adjusting my stance and felt the rope sliding through my hand”. THAT ONLY HAPPENS IF YOU DON”T HAVE YOUR BRAKE HAND ON THE ROPE!!!
My new attitude, If I haven’t climbed with you before, use my grigri, if you don’t know how to use it , you aren’t going to belay me. I’m too old to break any more bones.
Ive been climbing 45 years and never dropped anyone, hip belay, figure 8, ATC, reverso, grigri, forest hitch, muntner, you name it. Be careful out there, sh#t is just waiting to happen when get complacent.
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Werner wins the thread!
I bought a Grigri a couple years back. I don't think it's ever seen a rope. I used the fixed ones as PG Belmont when my cousin worked there, and I was never a fan.
The biggest change I'm considering is trying a Petzl Reverso when I retire my ATC Guide.
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couchmaster
climber
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Rather than tell your partner what they will be belaying you with, it's better to evaluate the partner first. If Donini said "today I'll belay you with XY or Z after you had discussed the days objectives and he knew your abilities, you wouldn't have to think twice about it.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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If you climb EZ and nobody ever falls, like in the old days, an ATC works great.
If there is going to be some falling, as is the modern way, most use a GriGri, ATC is carried for raps.
It's safer and lot easier - but only if you RTFM and follow it. Lots of good videos on youtube from Petzl.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I think I've used most of the methods and devices that have come out over the last sixty years, up to and including some of the latest gizmos. I feel pretty confident that I can belay with anything and have no problem if a partner wants me to use a gadget of their choice---with the following caveat:
I have to feel certain the device will be effective on the rope diameters we're using. That means to me that the ropes have to be in approximately the middle third of the range engraved on the gadget. I'm particularly wary of ropes at the lower end of the gadget's recommended range, because I don't think most devices provide enough friction for even rappelling with such ropes, much less catching big whippers.
For many years now I've climbed mostly with half ropes. For them there is a device that I think is clearly the best both in terms of catching and handling: the CT Alpine Up. You can rap with it and it autolocks when released, so you don't need an autoblock backup, and you can use it for guide mode belays, so you don't have to carry anything else. It is about the size and weight of a gri gri and looks complex even though it isn't.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Using a GriGri to belay and an ATC to rap really is at odds with my minimialist approach. If it works for you....fine. I’ll just stick to my luddite ways.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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When JeremyRoss and I go Climbing we spend so much time trying to figure out which style of belay device to use, not wanting one another to feel uncomfortable, that we never actually end up climbing. Just burn bowls and listen to metal.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Rolfr nails it.
The gri is the safest belay device bar none. It should go without saying that everyone should be using it. It only takes three biners to rappel or belay with as a backup I! But an ATC ain't that heavy! Plus if your leaving the ground on a multipitch you should always carry a backup belay/rappel device. Cause what would you do if you dropped ur gri gri?😬
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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BLUEBLOCR, for emergency scenarios, more people should know how to belay or rap with a munter hitch. Only need rope and locking biner. Works fine with two ropes too.
I typically climb with 2 ropes. I'm open to learning new tricks if there are good options for auto-locking with 2 ropes.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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I am a firm believer that the person operating the equipment is more important then the equipment.
Roger that. I was raised on using a hip belay. The climbs at Quartz in OK require the belayer to yard in a ton of rope if the leader falls. It took a long time to go with a Forrest type stitch plate. Just recently started using an ATC pro. If I can't trust a person using a hip belay or stitch plate, I don't climb with them.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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In these modern days of skinny ropes and more frequent falls I’ve been using a gri gri more and more. I think for workaday cragging autolocks are preferable.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Great thread topic Mei, thanks.
ATC because I'm an old and ossified. Given your and Ghosts's and Werner's (and ...?) posts, I'm considering changing.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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I generally only use a GriGri if I or my partner plan on sleeping whilst belaying. Like for some big wall climbs with epically long leads. It's also nice to have on big walls so you can get stuff done at the belay. For regular cragging I use an ATC.
If I trust and respect the ability of my belayer, I don't care what they use. If I'm climbing with a noob, or someone I don't know too well I might ask that they use the GriGri.
Funny story- I was on a wall in Zion and my belayer was headfirst in the haulbag trying to get something near the bottom. The piece I was standing on blew and I took a steep 25' fall. On my way down I saw my belayer get launched ass-first out of the haulbag. We both had a good laugh. She had the GriGri and it did it's job.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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I've had people say they prefer to be belayed with a grigri. Doesn't bother me as long as they know they'll probably be shorted on lead cause I suck at using it.
A friend saw a belayer get lifted off the ground and knocked out against a rock. He was using a grigri so nobody got hurt. That story makes me think they're a good idea. Maybe I should practice with it more.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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She had the GriGri and it did it's job.
HaHaHaHaaaa
THATS what I'm talkin bout.
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TLP
climber
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A friend saw a belayer get lifted off the ground and knocked out against a rock. He was using a grigri so nobody got hurt.
...but only because fortunately the leader didn't hit something in that extra distance. And why was it that the belayer wasn't clipped in??? Lapses in proper technique that only take a few seconds are much more likely to result in injury, potentially really bad, than what device is on the rope. Ghost's story is pretty alarming but most of us have the sense or good geographic luck not to climb in that kind of rock... :-))
That said, good points from all posts. My opinion? Just don't fall!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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..but only because fortunately the leader didn't hit something in that extra distance. And why was it that the belayer wasn't clipped in??? Lapses in proper technique that only take a few seconds are much more likely to result in injury, potentially really bad, than what device is on the rope. Ghost's story is pretty alarming but most of us have the sense or good geographic luck not to climb in that kind of rock... :-))
It was Larry Zulim who saw it happen to his friend. Those old timer Yosemite people are too lazy to clip in on belay
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Most (all) of my partners would never "require" me use a Gri Gri (or what ev's). Pretty comfy with an ATC (Petzl Reverso 4 mostly).
Closest I've ever come to being dropped was with a partner new to using a Gri Gri. Through direct observation, I think its the most misused belay device out there.
At least the ATC requires (ok demands) attention. The Gri Gri allows folks to get complacent. Or, they just never learn how to properly use it.
I have an original and the newer versions of the Gri Gri. Great for some self belay. I really hesitate handing one to a partner I'm unfamiliar with.
That said, a couple of folks I climb with are super savvy with an autolocker. No issues with them belaying me with one.
Ditto on never dropping anyone. I've caught, and been caught, on pretty hard, sudden falls on an ATC (as well as munter and hip belay).
Luddites unite!
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Climb with whatever makes you feel safest. For me that's not one device or another, it's a partner who knows how to correctly use the device they have.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Belaying is the easiest part of climbing. Why do we need to over analyze it? Do what is most efficient and safe.
S...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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because of my heightened sense of safety, I also wish all my belayers could provide me that extra assurance of safety.
This and all the other "grigris are safer" comments couldn't be more perfectly wrong. No device is 'safe' or 'safer' and in the wrong hands any device can maim and kill.
In the case of autoblocking devices, let's be upfront about why they've taken over the world and it's not about 'belaying' as they were designed for hanging not belaying. And in their facility for 'just working' 99% of the time there is a whole unspoken spectre of them promoting really lousy belaying behaviors on such a mass scale they all but turn the demographic into a random dropping generator. That, and god forbid you should be one of the 1% when they simply don't work.
Bottom line is if you need an autoblocking device to be a safer belayer then I don't want you belaying me; if you need me to use an autoblocking device for you to feel safer then you shouldn't be climbing with me.
So, I also wish all belayers could provide you that extra assurance of safety - but that has nothing whatsoever to do with what device they're using to belay you.
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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No device is 'safe' or 'safer' and in the wrong hands any device can maim and kill.
Just because no device is perfectly safe doesn't mean that some aren't safer than others. An ATC requires a firm grip on the brake strand at all times, the grigri does not. Humans, imperfect as they are, will not maintain a firm grip on the brake strand 100% of the time. For that reason I believe the grigri is probably safer.
But to know for sure a randomized controlled trial would need to be done where climbers (who are familiar with both devices) are randomly separated into two groups, each group uses the assigned device to belay, and then the injuries and deaths are tallied until enough data has been collected. It's possible that they would come out the same, or maybe the risk of threading the grigri backwards outweighs it's autolocking function. The world will likely never know. But I feel safer with by belayer clipped into a grigri.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I will use whatever equiptment the rope gun requests though i will let them know that i am less likly to short rope them with an ATC. If i am the rope gun then you will use whatever device you are most comfortable with.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Moooose writes For multi pitch I use a Trango Cinch. It's much lighter than a Gri-Gri and feeds the rope better.
Really? I know this is the internet and all, but....
GriGri2 = 5.996 ounces
Trango Cinch = 6.42 ounces
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WBraun
climber
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Bottom line is if you need an autoblocking device to be a safer belayer then I don't want you belaying me
Way too funny here,
I've felt safer belaying with a grigri.
I've belayed El Cap routes in the early days with just a hip belay.
I hate that st00pid atc and never used it ......
GriGri2 = 5.996 ounces
Trango Cinch = 6.42 ounces
LOL ... The other thing I find so st00pid is people say this device is 1.5 ounces lighter than that device and that is why I use it.
Then you look at the overkill rack they are carrying so many cams and nuts it weighs a ton ...lol
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dhayan
climber
culver city, ca
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I've been knocked to the ground from a dislodged block using an atc and managed to not drop my partner (barely). I now use the Edelrid mega jul and after getting used to it really dig it. Lighter than atc, can rap with auto locking option, auto locks every time I've caught a fall. No need to carry anything else. If you use the edelrid belay carabiner it feeds really smoothly.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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LOL ... The other thing I find so st00pid is people say this device is 1.5 ounces lighter than that device and that is why I use it.
Then you look at the overkill rack they are carrying so many cams and nuts it weighs a ton ...lol
Giant rack, a pack, full bowels and two quarts of water clipped to the harness... Lite is Right LOL
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Wow... a good topic about climbing.
Lots of good responses here....
Personally I started using a Grigri when Sport Climbing, hanging, will be going on.... if the sport climbing is easy and no hanging, I go with the ATC/pro.
If out climbing, I only bring the ATC.
I never rap with a grigri....the whole one rope deal with extra knots seems just to prone to getting stuck.... and I never simul-rap (that's really whacked out, IMHO)
I agree 100% that its the belayer- not the device that ensures safety... with that being said, I recently was asked by a long time partner to teach him how to use a Grigri properly. This is due to health issues and just getting older. I figure any of us could just drop dead at any second.
At the A-hills recently, Eric Beck and a woman, a gracious lady- Ann- if I recall correctly- who looked to be about 72, who obviously was no noob to the sport, was belaying Eric. She had a Grigri and was pretty clumsy using it. So Matt, a 20 something climber, politely asked her if she wanted some pointers. Yes she said... by the time Eric reached the anchors, Ann was stripping out rope for the clips, kept the brake hand "on"... and lowered Eric smooth as silk.
Old dogs do learn new tricks.
EDIT: To answer topic. NO I would not change what I do, because a partner asked me to. For instance, if they handed me a MegaJewel, for double rope use... I would tell them "I'm not qualified/comfortable using that.... maybe you need to find a different partner.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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I thought the grigri was an autodrop device?
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Great question Mei.
I have not asked my partners to switch but I recently switched myself, to a Mega Jul, for lead belay and multipitch. It's amazing how that thing locks up. Took some getting used to but I'm mostly using a 60 m at 9.4mm for multipitch and I like the added security compared to the Atc. For sport climbing I am happy to use my grigri 2 to lead belay but usually use it for people seconding.
This is a good conversation to have with partners.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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If sport climbers used ATCs for the past 30 years instead of GriGris, I think there'd be way more accidents than with the GriGris.
One of the reasons ATCs seem statistically safer is that the people who typically use them don't actually fall.
If there is going to be falling, and if you use the GriGri properly, it's way safer, IMO.
If you're a lazy putz who can't take the time to read the manual, watch some videos and keep an open mind and eye to learn all the subtleties from others around you for at least a few years - there is no safe device for you regardless.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I've felt safer belaying with a grigri.
You guys climb big walls; maybe it's an attention span deal...
Just because no device is perfectly safe doesn't mean that some aren't safer than others.
That's exactly what it means.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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I won't lead if yer belaying me with a GriGri period. Impossible to feed out rope quickly without holding it "open" and that requires leaving the brake end of the rope.
Arne
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Impossible to feed out rope quickly without holding it "open" and that requires leaving the brake end of the rope. This is wrong, RTFM.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think:
1) team safety is a team discussion;
2) team members have to be candid about their knowledge of safety systems;
3) the most conservative team safety decision consistent with the team's safety competence be adopted.
This puts a lot on the team members being forthcoming about what they know. I've belayed with many different systems but I'm not familiar with all of them, the safety of my partner depends on my competence so I'm not going to tell my partner I know how do use a device I am not totally familiar with...
...you get to choose your partners.
This is especially true as there is not always time to discuss the choices. Like Jim, I'll often use a hip belay when it is fast and safe, I don't always discuss it with my partners before hand and it does often elicit comment either by the partner or adjacent climbing teams....
Similarly, if it would be "safer" for a competent team to move fast, say soloing or simul-climbing, but for a member that is not able to solo or simul-climb safely, the team faces the choice of doing it anyway and risking an accident, or moving slowly and risking a "suboptimal" outcome.
If Mei asked me to use a Gri-Gri (I usually use an ATC-like device because of the routes I do, generally no falling and many rappels necessary) I'd use one after making sure she knows how much experience I've had using one (mostly sport and gym climbing). Climbing with her I could become more competent using it outside on longer routes. Does she want to take the risk? What are the tradeoffs?
Ghost brings up an important question, that is: what happens if the belayer is incapacitated at the moment that they need to arrest a fall? Auto-locking devices are obviously an important consideration if that situation is likely for a particular climb. I don't think this is the case for the vast majority of climbers, but some subset of the climbing community goes out onto ground where the likelihood of this sort of scenario is high, auto-locking devices have an advantage.
JLP's comments can be generalized: make sure you know how to use whatever system properly, your partner's life depends on it.
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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I refuse to climb with anyone who insists that I use a GriGri. I hate being belayed by them, but have finally accepted that I will never get the slack I want, when I want it and that I may be pulled off by the belay. You can't rap with it, so what good is it?
I will stick to climbing with partners who know how to belay, whatever the tool they choose might be.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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As mentioned grigris aren't necessarily safer. Just anecdotally but I've heard of more climbers dropped when using them than other devices. Mostly grigri noobs that panic and hold the device locked open by mistake (when lowering or when paying out rope quickly to the leader). They are more complex and less intuitive than an ATC type device. And can promote bad habits as mentioned. However humans are fallible and I like the idea of the autolock backing them up and more foolproof for FF2 events.
Like tradmanclimbs says I use what the leader requests and if I'm leading I'll use whatever the belayer likes. I will ask for a grigri type if my belayer is significantly lighter than me, so if I tee bag them they can use both hands to protect themselves and I don't worry about being dropped. And for walls, since there are long leads where the belayer may not be paying full attention and so they can eat/put on another layer, etc. more safely.
I think it's fine to ask your partner to use the device you want, but I wouldn't demand it. There are some drawbacks to autolockers as mentioned: short roping the leader, must carry another device for double rope raps, more of a pain to pay rope out for the leader, heavier, and potential of misuse (mainly by grigri noobs).
moosedrool: check the directions for unblocking the reverso in guide mode. You use a sling to pull up on the biner that locks the rope. It releases pretty easily.
I'm not as "experienced" as many folks here, I learned to climb in the days of tube type "ATCs". But I learned the hip belay and use it on easy terrain where the rope is moving fast. It's almost like the older the method the less secure and faster it is, while the newer method/device is more secure but more of a pain the feed rope quickly. Anyway there's been multiple times I'm belaying the follower up the last pitch of a climb while I'm using a hip belay at the top of a crag, and someone walks by and just stares like I'm a dinosaur. I've even had people ask if it's safe. LOL.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Just anecdotally but I've heard of more climbers dropped when using them than other devices.
This is my experience as well. And I have seen it happen in real time more than once. I have never seen someone dropped on an ATC.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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So, if you are still actively climbing and still use ATC, ... So more to the point of the question...reads to me like the OP needs to go find some new partners.
All my partners are experts with the GriGri, mostly wear belay glasses, never short rope me, always a soft catch after a short fall, generally at least 20 yrs experience - and it really isn't that complicated.
All these partners started a long time ago with ancient devices. They're learners - they're not standing around bragging about how long they've been here as they show off some antique that curiously has never worn out.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2017 - 02:34pm PT
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I want to thank all of you for participating in this conversation. Good discussions and I hear both sides. As you see in my subject line, my question is not about what your partners do for you or make you do, in the context of belay devices; it’s about what you are willing to do for your partners after you take yourself out of the thinking. I appreciate anyone who give this subject some serious thoughts, whatever you decide to do.
In my previous climbing life (2003-2005), I used ATC for trad and Grigri for cragging. It never occurred to me to lug a Grigri on a multi pitch climb. After I returned to climbing in late 2015, I forgot what triggered my thinking (my guess is being 10 years more mature made me value other people’s lives and the impact of their lives on their loved ones a bit more), I started my quest for a suitable belay device (again for trad) that could provide extra assurance of safety beyond what my own belay skills provide. Following are some of my thoughts on a few devices I’ve used that may not have been made obvious in online reviews.
First, I’m confident about my usage of ATC. I like it because it allows me to be lazy. With a Grigri, I know that I need to always actively watch out for the kinks below the device because nothing stops a rope feed cold like a little kink induced loop. While this can be easily avoided if the belayer is an active thinker, constantly proactively addressing potential rope hiccups, ATC is most forgiving of such hiccups even if the belayer just goes through robotic motions without activating brain cells. Incidents had proven that I had a solid instinct about locking up my brake hand and not letting go even when I’m slammed violently into the rock (usu. due to weight difference which made me forever mindful of that aspect), but they probably further motivated my quest.
I was excited about Edelrid Mega Jul. It looks most familiar (just like my ATC). See this video https://vimeo.com/53332541 if you’ve never seen it in real life. @NutAgain, the video clearly demonstrates its usage with double ropes. It’s extremely light weight and versatile - lead belay, guide belay, and rappel — it handles them all. However, I soon discovered the short comings. Most ropes I climb on (my own or my partners') are not skinny because we do not get pro deals and need our gear to last. They do not feed as nicely in this small device. In guide mode, the pull is tendonitis inducing. The biggest short coming is it requires the thumb in the loop to facilitate fast payout of rope. I don’t want my fragile thumb to be a part of the setup. I can’t think of bad and gross scenarios, but I like my hands to be away from my device; not to mention, having the thumb engaged at the device will interfere with my ability to shake out kinks below me. Old ropes always have kinks in them.
No doubt Grigri (now version 2 and soon version Plus) is the MOST popular auto-lock (they call it assist braking) device. To anyone who claim that Grigri equals short roping or even dropping, please allow me to be blunt — open up your mind and be humble. If you don’t learn the skills, Grigri can be everything bad; but if you are willing to spend the time to master the skills, Grigri can provide the best belay experience a leader can ask for. That said, there are a few things I don’t like about it (in comparison with what we have available today):
1) Heavy
2) Moving parts on the device.
3) This is the last straw for me: I find that the bend to the side (required for fast rope payout) might ever slightly introduce a little twist into the rope when feeding through. The effect becomes prominent on full 80m rope cragging, where at the end of the lowering, I have to constantly shake out the kinks.
4) Designed for right handed people.
This is where Click-Up would shine. Light (My BD ATC Guide 88g; ClickUp 120g), no moving parts, feeds just like an ATC, and rope goes straight in and out, also works the same whichever hand you prefer for braking. Watch the video on this excellent review piece: https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=3498
I understand the “incapacitated partner” arguement, but my family and I have discussed acceptable risk at length and I’d put that in the “acts of god” category that I’m allowed to flout(along with massive rockfall, accidents caused by other drivers, freak storms, etc). I hear ya. I'm one who often times point out other people's overreaction with safety concerns. I accept acts of god myself. But when it comes to other people lives, I wonder how I can live with myself if something bad happens to my partner when I know it can have been avoided if had made a tiny change on my part, say using a different device (see Ghost's example).
as long as they know they'll probably be shorted on lead cause I suck at using it. Using a Grigri properly is not rocket science and only takes willing min, active thinking, and practice. I've had plenty of short while being belayed on ATC as well. But in reality, I've noticed that a lot of leaders are nervous jerky leaders. I'll explain. Some leaders, when they are about to clip, they jerk up the rope very fast. Sure, one tends to do that when nervous, but you can't be nervous all the time, right? Or can you? In that kind of jerky motion, it really does not help the belayer. An experienced belayer can anticipate that and still pay out rope fast, but it's hell for a belayer no matter how familiar he/she is with the device, especially if the belayer is just reactive (vs. active). It especially does not help when a leader, usually a sport climber, constantly switching between taking (little slack is desired) and clipping (after taking, suddenly stands up, and pulls up rope hard trying to make next clip desperately). In that case, you bring the short on yourself.
Belaying is the easiest part of climbing. That was once my thinking as well. Not any more. Once I had the revelation about the art of belaying (a year ago), I have become a little obsessed about perfecting it. I've make plenty of mistakes, big and small, and I learned my lessons, but I also realize that I'll forever be a student in that department for the rest of my climbing life, because there is always something more to learn. Belaying is far more than just being safe and efficient. Say being safe gives the belayer a passing grade 60, being efficient may give you 80. From there to the perfect score 100, there are many subtleties. And being able to realize those subtleties and execute well can provide one a lot of satisfaction (not to mention giving the climber the best experience). I'd love to put down some thoughts on that. If anyone is also interested in this topic, please hold your thoughts. I'll start another thread on that - the art of belaying - in the near future. In the mean time, some food for thoughts, if people can get your hands on this excellent book: Advanced Rock Climbing: Expert Skills and Techniques, by Topher Donahue, please do so. Makes a great holiday present as well. I once joked that I should hand out a photo copy of his Chapter "Belaying for Mastery" to all my belayers, except that I was not joking (just never did it). I loved the term "active belay."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Thanks for starting the discussion. I have my own system which works well for me. I want partners who have a system that works well for them. I really don’t care what the system is, I do care that it’s tried and true for the person using it.
Just back fron a nice multi pitch ice climb...once again my ATC filled the bill for me both going up and coming back down.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Mei
I have to belay someone who is over 125 pounds heavier than I.
Tried the grigriII, and it was somewhat problematic, but the
Trango Cinch is great. I'm not worried about a bit more weight,
but I can keep my partner safe with it. As long as I am anchored
to something. I purchase the Edelrid Ohm to help with sport climbing
(okay, an oxymoron), but haven't used it yet to see if it helps with
my heavier partner. . .
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Mei,
I meant no offense to your question and you brought up a good point.
My wife weighs 110lbs I weigh 200lbs. She likes slack to give a soft catch, I hate slack cause of rope stretch and hitting a ledge. I think that you need to have good communication with your partner. Belaying is easy. Its when the rope runs out; do you have your shoes on and belay broken down (you only have 2 ft of rope left) and start simulclimbing, good communication of that scenario is important but not hard. Are you rapping or lowering? Good communication. Hanging belay? Are they leaving the belay to the left or the right? The device is of no concern as long as you know what you are doing. Ultimately my partners are all 25 year friends. I have no worries. But I still won't lower off, I rappel. I limit my exposure to my amazing belayers regardless.
I think I'm becoming an old fart!
Cheers!
S...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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More than handful or so of slack is bad and the mark of an unskilled belayer.
You have to hop a bit as the rope catches - higher if the climber is a lot lighter, maybe not at all if the climber is heavier. Takes practice and tuning for each partner. This is the soft catch, it is not falling a long ways and possibly hitting something at high speed or having to waste energy to get back to where you fell.
That said, the bigger the weight difference, the less safe for both. I’ve seen serious injuries for both leader and belayer / light and heavy. I would never climb with someone 90 lbs different than me.
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clarkolator
climber
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Partners are the most valuable thing. So yeah, whatever is good for you. Learning is good, and hopefully you'll go with my safety obsessions.
As far as my practice with belay devices, I'm basically the same as donini, except only 40 years.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Partners are the most valuable thing.
Damn right. Way upthread I posted a note about how my partner got nailed by rockfall, and his gri-gri saved my life. But that doesn't mean gri-gris are awesome. Or better than your favorite hunk of metal.
On one of my first days rock climbing, I caught a 30-foot factor-1 fall on a hip belay. Didn't hurt me or my partner, and in fact seemed to verify everything he'd taught me. (Back then, there weren't no "belay devices.")
Since then I've caught a zillion falls on a dozen belay devices, and been caught on a zillion falls by partners using a dozen belay devices. They all have their pluses and minuses, and there isn't a single one of them that works all by itself, whether the belayer is experienced or clueless.
But there is one thing that I think is basic: If your partner is knocked out or killed, an autoblock will probably keep you off the deck.
Does that mean you should always use a gri-gri (or one of the many modern equivalents)? Of course not. Donini belaying me on a hip belay is a whole lot safer than some gym noob belaying me on whatever modern metal sculpture. But if I pull off a block, and it kills Donini on the way down, his ATC ain't gonna save me.
Five-day alpine horrror show? ATC all the way. Working new routes on a crumbling choss pile? Auotbloc all the way.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^OK then🙂
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WBraun
climber
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I've caught a zillion falls on a dozen belay devices, and been caught on a zillion falls
Zillion falls .....
Are you sure you even know how to climb?
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Ghost pretty much sums it up for me...
but as per an answer to the op's interesting question:
single pitch: sure, you as my partner are the boss. if autolocks make you more comfortable then sure thing. plus it's easy to get complacent and an autolock can't hurt.
multipitch/alpine: nah, you'd have to convince me that the idealized beauty of an autolock catching a fall even if the belayer is unconscious is actually practically safer in the aggregate when people [noobs or not] do also manage to occasionally drop people with the more complicated gri gris and their variations.
ie. my opinion is that people's regular attachment to gri gris and their ilk is based in theoretical thought styled experiment rather than in an actual real life across the board practical safety advantage.
ie, ie. while "safer" is usually better: ultimately the primary safety is consciousness and sometimes the "safer" can habituate minor and not so minor inattentions, thus negating, in certain contexts, their "safety" advantage.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Are you sure you even know how to climb?
Of course not. If I knew how to climb, I wouldn't fall. I wouldn't need ropes or belayers or sticky rubber or metal gizmos. I'd just float to the top of rocks and mountains.
But since I'm just a human, I'll never reach the plane of perfect climbing, and will continue to up my fall numbers from zillions to gazillions.
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WBraun
climber
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and his gri-gri saved my life
According to time and circumstance for that very moment, that device became awesome ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Yeah, and that happens about once per 10,000 drops when the device is less than awesome.
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Degaine
climber
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Healyje wrote:
In the case of autoblocking devices, let's be upfront about why they've taken over the world and it's not about 'belaying' as they were designed for hanging not belaying.
To my knowledge with regard to the Grigri, Petzl has always used the term "assisted braking," but I don't have any ads from the early nineties. In any case, that is the term they have used for at least the last 15 years.
With regard to "autoblocking," this comes directly from the French, "autobloquant," which refers to both a type of friction hitch (similar to a kleimheist or prusik) as well as what in the US we refer to as "guide mode" when belaying a second with devices such as the Kong gigi, the ATC guide, the Reverso (all versions), etc.
Whether one likes or dislikes the Grigri (or the Cinch, etc.), which you clearly don't, I think it's important to get the terminology right if your intention is to share knowledge and experience with others. If it's simply to rant, then disregard the above.
Healyje wrote:
And in their facility for 'just working' 99% of the time there is a whole unspoken spectre of them promoting really lousy belaying behaviors on such a mass scale they all but turn the demographic into a random dropping generator. That, and god forbid you should be one of the 1% when they simply don't work.
None of the materials published from the device manufacturers reads, "works 99% of the time," and as far as I know most of them (from Petzl to Mammut to Edelrid to DMM, etc.) have videos on their websites indicating how to (1) properly belay and (2) properly belay with their devices.
While I don't hate all-things gym climbing, after reading your posts on the topic of belaying and/or assisted-braking devices over the years on ST and MP, I would agree that gyms have a lot to do with the task of belaying being minimized in importance. The short duration of the belay/lead test combined often with inexperienced gym staff tasked conducting themselves creates an atmosphere, in my humble opinion, that minimizes the importance of the belay, considering it secondary to climbing instead of an integral part.
Some guides and instructors are at fault, too, especially those who started using the Grigri 20 years ago, not only by using improper technique for the device (taking hand off the brake side of the rope) but also furthering the myth that it is a device for beginners (to compensate for their inexperience).
The issue for me personally has nothing to do with a particular device - which is just a too for the job, and sometimes one's hip or a horn on a ridgeline will do just fine - but learning and practicing proper belay technique.
Of course your mileage (a lot more than mine) may vary and point of view be much different.
Cheers.
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Degaine
climber
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To the OP,
Similarly to Rgold, on multi-pitch routes I always climb with doubles, so use either an ATC-Guide, Reverso 4, or a combination of a tube device (usually ATC) and the Kong Gigi. Only recently did the CT Alpine UP hit the market and I have yet to try it, but am interested.
I like the guide plate for belaying a second and find both devices (ATC-Guide and Reverso-4) belay both a leader and a second well. While I lack the experience of Rgold when it comes to catching a factor 2 fall using a hip belay, I have caught someone 30kg heavier than me with the ATC-Guide and 8.6mm double ropes.
For sport climbing, I pretty much belay exclusively with the Grigri. I only climb with partners that I trust implicitly to belay me, and am comfortable with whatever device they choose to use (a Grigri or a tube-style device). If I were to ever meet Healyje in person, I would have no problem with him providing me with a hip belay while on lead as long as he promised to smile and pretend like he enjoys climbing and the company of others.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I've been an assisted-braking user for quite a few years now, having settled on the CT Alpine Up as by far the best solution for the way I handle half ropes. My reasons are somewhat different from those posted by others, but that isn't the primary focus of this discussion so I'll save them for another time. My point at the moment is I am not biased against new technology simply by virtue of having learned and become competent with earlier methods.
So here's the thing I dislike about new belay gadgets. It isn't so much that people simply fail to do their due diligence and so don't know how to use them and then screw up, that is a criticism of climber attitudes rather than anything intrinsic to the devices. (For example, there's a perfectly good way to pump slack to the leader with a gri gri and still maintain a functional brake hand, and the information is available in the device instructions and all over the internet. Anyone still using one of the fully discredited approaches is failing a basic responsibility to their companions. That's bad, but I don't see it as a device flaw.)
No, what bothers me more is that the new technologies come with hidden gotcha's that no one knows about until something bad happens. I'm not necessarily blaming manufacturers and engineers for this, as it is probably an inevitable side-effect of increasing complexity. It is just a fact of life the user has to accept, that they may do everything according to the book and the device may still not perform as it is supposed to. (It is small consolation that the book may be rewritten after an unfortunate experience.) In climbing, where we pride ourselves on our ability and dedication in controlling elements of risk---even as we willingly embrace some, the fact that we have to accept a small probability that a belay device might fail through no predictable fault of our own is a bitter pill to swallow.
In the case of assisted braking devices (so now excluding the grigri), there is a technical issue that isn't particularly well-known, and that is the relative decline in performance for high loads. Tests by Jim Titt have shown that the "force multiplying" effect of a number of assisted braking devices (how much of a load you can hold with a given level of grip strength) tends to level off when higher loads have to be held, even if the required increase in grip strength is available. By contrast, the ATC-XP continues to provide more or less the same multiplicative advantage as the load increases. This means that the same gadget that provides nearly effortless braking for low-impact falls may be much worse than the "non-locking" ATC-XP in holding a big fall. (In this respect, by the way, the juls seem to be the worst of the lot.)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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...the fact that we have to accept a small probability that a belay device might fail through no predictable fault of our own is a bitter pill to swallow.
generalized to the entire "safety system" (include here anchors, webbing, ropes, carabiners, etc and the training to implement properly) that bitter pill gets pretty large, though the failure probability seems not to grow as quickly.
How much risk is mitigated by acceding to Mei's hypothetical request? and how much more is assumed?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I agree Ed, but when it comes to belay devices, we have a kind of choice that is not available when rigging an anchor with whatever is available. And I also agree that my "complaint," if that's what it is (remember I use these devices), may, as with many human reactions to probabilistic events, be far more emotional than rational.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Single-pitch I´d belay someone with whatever device they wanted, it´s their life not mine. When they belayed me I´d make my choice as well!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I'd like to push back a little bit.
For instance, you rig your belay with carabiners, and the evolution of carabiners has lead to reducing their weight and size.
Do we have any idea what level of engineering goes into designing the modern carabiner, what tests those designs are subjected to and how the actual carabiners are "qualified" for use in the safety systems (including the determination of the necessary training for using them)?
My guess is that we overestimate the degree of rigor used in producing these products. This complacency is worrisome, especially given they are critical components in our safety system.
For the most part, we assume they are provided with a degree of assurance that is equal to their critical importance, legal disclaimers not withstanding, and of course, we all assume we know how to use a carabiner, how complicated could it be?
This ubiquitous item has failed in a number of cases, mostly because the climber used them "incorrectly" in cases where they were subject to forces that lead to failure.
I don't have any answers for any of the questions raised, of course... I too succumb to the "Challenger mentality" which posits that your probability of failure goes down with each successful voyage, what is it about human perception of risk that makes this a tenable thought?
oh, and perhaps this should be at least linked:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHdqjjyeTtg
We are, in fact, part of the product testing for all climbing gear. It would not be possible to anticipate all the situations for which we use this gear. A bit of knowledge regarding the gear would seem to be important when deciding how to use it in real life.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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So here's the thing I dislike about new belay gadgets. It isn't so much that people simply fail to do their due diligence and so don't know how to use them and then screw up, that is a criticism of climber attitudes rather than anything intrinsic to the devices. (For example, there's a perfectly good way to pump slack to the leader with a gri gri and still maintain a functional brake hand, and the information is available in the device instructions and all over the internet. Anyone still using one of the fully discredited approaches is failing a basic responsibility to their companions. That's bad, but I don't see it as a device flaw.)
No, what bothers me more is that the new technologies come with hidden gotcha's that no one knows about until something bad happens.
Yeah but in the case of the GriGri that information didn't come out until after about 10 years after "no brake hand accidents" started accumulating. Then they searched out new techniques for belaying the leader with that device that would both pay out slack AND keep a hand on the brake. Kind of like reverse engineering.
Many years ago (can't remember how long the GriGri has been around) seems like 20 years ago I was belaying a cutting edge climber at Smith Rocks. He asked me if I knew how to lead belay with the device and I said yes because I had been experimenting with pushing the rope backwards through the device at a rate that didn't cause the device to lock up, thereby paying out slack. I thought it was working pretty well but when he went to yank up slack for a clip at the crux it locked and boy was he pissed. Then he came back down and said again, "don't you know how to use that thing"? He then had me squeeze it open with my brake hand (abandoning the brake end) and pay out slack with the other hand, then during a fall, just let go. That never sat well with me because I have ripped through 12 feet of rope before the unit locks up and seen it happen many times, rope diameter dependent.
Now I have seen revised information from Petzl on lead belay technique but I'm no longer interested. Just me.
Arne
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I sympathize, Ionlyski. I think that any device that requires you to disconnect braking in order to pump slack has an intrinsic flaw, which may or may not be so important depending on the technique of the belayer. (That said, even the ATC might be said to require a "disconnect of braking" in the sense of reorienting the strands to parallel in order to pump slack.)
There other gotchas. Petzl warns about weighting the load strand with the non-braking hand, Cinches have had various problems historically, Mammut Smart has rope-jamming issues, and the other assisted-braking devices suffer from the performance inconsistencies I mentioned above. Anything with a moving cam might be adversely affected by a bit of grit in the mechanism (this might explain otherwise "inexplicable" gri gri failures).
It is worth adding that whenever a gadget fails to perform as it "should," there is always a chorus of voices citing operator error, not because all the facts are known (they usually are not), but rather because of (I would say blind) faith that the device cannot possibly malfunction unless the user makes a critical error.
Where's the test data on what an ATC holds when the rope has a new dry treatment? It sure AF goes through the rappel device faster. Forgetting about slippery treatments, I don't even believe the manufacturer's engraved ranges.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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ATC Pilot...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0IN08M4pkU
revealingly, perhaps, this is the only "How To" video on the Black Diamond site for belay devices... apparently people are more concerned with what the proper number of button pokes are required to turn on the various BD headlamps... maybe they need a phone app interface.
If you should not remove your brake hand from a gri-gri then what of the "auto lock feature" which Mei felt was important in the OP?
Petzl seems to have walked back from this feature.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sigh. By way of clarification, it's not that I 'hate' grigris, gyms, sport climbing, inclusivity, commercialization, or a demographic that has exploded over the last thirty-five years.
No, what I have a problem with (particularly in the context of any discussion of belaying and belay devices), is that climbers and climbing have dramatically failed to grasp and acknowledge the extensive impacts these changes have wrought on climber perceptions, attitudes, and behaviors. Hell, even what climbing 'is' for the vast majority of climbers has seriously morphed over that time frame.
But sticking to the immediate context of belaying, the cumulative effect of all those factors has produced a 'modern' demographic where a good belay is not a given, everyone is suspect (for good reasons), and folks think yet more reliance on a mechanical device is the best way to counter that situation. And it would be if not for the fact the device they're looking to for the "extra assurance of safety" is, in large part, the reason a good belay is no longer a given.
Crikey, if ever there was an ironic gerbil wheel of self-reinforcing behavior this is it - proliferate a device which actively promotes bad belay behaviors and then demand everyone use that very same device to counter the resulting debacle of incompetence on a demographic scale.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Mei, a two minor comments on your last post.
the video [about Jul use] clearly demonstrates its usage with double ropes
I just looked at the video and it doesn't address half rope technique at all. In fact, the only place double ropes---which are almost certainly twins---appears is in the bit about upper belays in guide mode.
I've tried the MicroJul and the Mammut Smart Alpine with half ropes and personally dislike the handling issues they impose. They just aren't a good solution for belaying with such ropes. Add to this the fact I mentioned earlier about their performance inconsistencies---especially the MicroJul's---and they are the wrong choice for me as they turned out to be for you.
This is where Click-Up would shine....no moving parts...
The Click-Up does have a moving part, a spring-loaded tab that keeps the rope from popping the device into locking position under low rope tension (as when slack is being pumped to the leader). This little tab is the main reason the Alpine Up's half-rope handling so much better than the Juls and the Smart, and it is the reason the Click Up has the best handling characteristics of any of the assisted braking devices including the Gri Gri.
A good thing about the Click and Alpine Up moving part is that braking would be unaffected by a tab failure, it is just that handling would be worse. So a broken tab would never be the cause of a loss of control, unlike a gri gri, in which a cam malfunction would render the device pretty ineffective, as the braking effect of the rope path by itself is minimal.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Interesting comment Rgold about weighting the load side of the device thereby interfering with the locking process of a camming type of device. I never thought of that.
But for sure in the gym with short 40 foot ropes and the GriGri being threaded at the end of that rope leaving only 10 feet or so of rope on the brake side can have an effect on the locking of the device because there is no weight on the end of the rope so brake hand becomes very necessary.
Arne
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Grigri can provide the best belay experience a leader can ask for. That said, there are a few things I don’t like about it...
4) Designed for right handed people.
So what happens when you're in a tight spot and you need to belay with your left hand? Or your right hand got banged up by a rock earlier in the climb?
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D'Wolf
climber
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We need a few more MIT grads from JPL to chime in and carry this over-analyzation to the next level. REALLY?
"Seat belts save lives."
There are approximately 5,000,000 commuters on the road EACH DAY in Los Angeles. Your odds of a fatal accident in California: roughly 1/13,000. And yet, there are people that can give you personal stories of how a seat belt saved their life and will champion the cause forever more. Roughly half the people that die in auto accidents typically aren't wearing seat belts. Uh, yeah, but the other half that died, were. How many lives do seat belts actually save? Honestly? Somewhat hard to definitively know.
And so it goes with climbing...
I've met climbers that won't use oval 'biners because "D" 'biners are 40% stronger, stating that, "ovals are too weak". Seriously. Idiots.
I can't even begin to calculate the tens of thousands of climbers around the world that have climbed without an auto-locking belay device throughout the history of our sport - and lived.
Statistically speaking, believe it or not, our sport is actually a pretty safe sport. Your paranoia over ATC's belies your inexperience. You're over-thinking this thing. Really.
Don't get on a plane; it might crash.
Thom
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I’m kinda with you Thom. Most rock climbing gear is over engineered for it’s intended use. To say one style of carabiner is better because It’s stronger is simply ludicrous. Almost all accidents are pilot error and that includes using gear incorrectly
You are correct in saying that rock climbing is a relatively safe sport but that does not extend to alpine climbing. The increased danger in alpine, however, is because of objective hazards like weather, avalanches and rock fall. In a sense you could consider pilot error an objective hazard in rock climbing.
I have been fine despite the fact that I don’t use an autobloc belay system, hardly ever put in three piece equalized anchors and never carry extra gear because I am afraid I might lose something.
A large part of that has to do with my experience. Having said that, I still believe that this discussion is valid and could prove helpful for many people. Whatever system you use for belaying be sure that you are comfortable with it and thoroughly knowledgeable in it’s use.
Remember that the system is an inanimate object and you are animate and want to stay that way. Constant vigilance is paramount in the vertical world...gravity never takes a vacation.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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PLENTY of problems with those bitd with all the same errors and results afaik.
Well, I don't know when bitd was for you, but that wasn't the case in the areas I climbed at in the '70s; no one ever got dropped in tens of thousands of goes with no devices at all.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I'm 74 years old and have been climbing for 60 of those years. My onsight trad climbing level has dropped two full grades in spite of being at it more or less continually. My mile time has more than doubled. I can't come anywhere near jumping and grabbing the rim of the basket any more. The number of two-arm pullups I can do is only slightly more than the number of one-arm pullups I used to be able to do. If I close my eyes, I'm lucky if I can balance on one foot for five seconds.
One of the things that have kept me in the game have been the advances in technology. A few stoppers and hexes got me up 5.11 BITD, but if I had to climb 5.9 with the same rack, I'd probably have hung up my spurs. So although I'm neither addicted to nor obsessed with climbing technology, I'm definitely a fan.
In this regard, I don't get the seat belt analogy. If buckling up significantly increases my chances of walking away from an accident, why would I choose not to do it? And if seat belts improve, why wouldn't I opt for better versions?
I think that climbers, with their use of ropes and cams and nuts, devote more attention to risk attenuation than anyone in any other endeavor. It is, in some sense, continually on their minds (and if not, to their peril). This inclination to attend to risk is precisely what enables us to survive. But then why is it surprising that in some of our down time we discuss the features and benefits of the various devices we use?
By virtue of experience, training, and attitude, I guess I'm as good or better a belayer than many younger climbers. But does it really make sense that I use the same belay system, with its demands for good grip strength and fast reflexes, that I used, say, thirty years ago, when my physical capabilities were so much more substantial? Isn't the rational thing, ego notwithstanding, to adopt something that will provide a bit of an edge? And how exactly does anything about generations climbers managing without recent advances in technology have any relevance for my decision about being as reliable a companion as I can possibly be?
I'm in awe, as I think most of us are, of Jim's abilities and choices, but he himself makes it clear that they aren't for everyone. But even in Jim's case, I'm guessing he isn't ice-climbing with a Stubai straight pick ice axe in one hand and a Salewa ice dagger in the other, nor is he even likely to be sporting a double rack of rigid-stem cams. We all embrace various aspects of technology and its improvements. One person's line will be drawn in a different place than another's. I see the belay device "debate" as part of a continual struggle to evaluate how technology can contribute to our sport without somehow draining its soul, and so am not at all bothered by the discussion.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 10, 2017 - 02:21am PT
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I suspect Jim likes shiny things as much as the rest of us but that, at the end of the day, Jim mainly relies on Jim to give Jim an extra assurance of safety and not one of the shiny things.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 10, 2017 - 06:14am PT
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Rgold....I too have found my physical abilities much diminished. I once, with perfect conditions, could dunk. I now can barely grab the net. I am far from a Luddite when it comes to gear. I have, up to date, modern ice tools and ultralight BD cams. All of my biners are 1oz. and I use 9mm single ropes. I certainly depend on new technology to keep my climbing level anywhere near what it was.
My choices in belay devices follow the same trend towards minimum weight and versatility. I reiterate that, given the importance of a good belay, people should choose the system they feel the most comfortable and secure with. Conversely, I want a partner who I feel has his/her belaying down pat whatever system they choose to use.
Extraordinarily warm and dry in Ouray. I'm up early to head out to Escalante Canyon for some splitter cracks!
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Don Paul
Mountain climber
Denver CO
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Dec 10, 2017 - 06:17am PT
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I still like ATCs better, can give and take slack instantly.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 08:10am PT
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Extraordinarily warm and dry in Ouray. I'm up early to head out to Escalante Canyon for some splitter cracks!
Now right there is one of the innumerable differences between Jim and I. It's 11 am on Sunday morning and I'm still sipping a cappuccino, staring at the 3 inches of snow I have to shovel off my driveway.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 08:52am PT
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I used to use ATCs alot. But Ive learned from some of the worlds top climbers that a GriGri is the best tool. You wont see many of the hottest sharp end climbers using ATCs. When the leader falls alot on a hard move, ATCs lead to fatigue which is the number one killer. Standing at belays can be a long and tedious gulag with an ATC. I like being able to move around and even adjust my position while belaying. The ATC is just too sketchy for that. Ive been dropped a long way on ATCs and nearly killed when my belayer, a climbing legend, couldnt hold on. I watched a student of mine, who worked as belay staff at Pipeworks, deck her father in the gym while belaying with an ATC. I bought her a GriGri the next day. I recall lowering a partner off with a 70meter rope by ATC one time. I wont ever do that again. the ATC is useless for belaying off an anchor, and thus cannot be easily used to rescue a partner. The ATC cannot be used as a progress capture so its useless in setting up 3:1 rigging. When I guide I belay off anchor and always carry mini traxion. It takes me about 30 seconds to set up a 3:1 and I dont need to escape the belay because Im on my own tie in. Munter mules are good to know about. But they require practice to use them in real time scenarios. The Gri Gri on an anchor makes it all go away. Yes I belay the leader off my harness. But Im one girth hitch/prussick and a locker away from transferring the load to the anchor. Try doing that with one hand while holding the brakes on an ATC thats loaded with a 200 lb fallen leader. I will admit that twisted ropes and grigris sometimes hose the leader. That is why we train in the gym and develop proficiency with the device before entering the natural world with it. I will admit that the Petzl reverso has some functions that are likable, if you know how to really use one in guide mode..... When I self belay setting routes or pruning trees, an ATC is useless unless I lock off by wrapping the rope around my leg and squeezing. I do that all the time when rappelling but its not feasible when running a chainsaw. Gri Gris suck for rappelling so I give props to the ATC for that. I do always carry one. Never underestimate the value of belaying with a Munter in an emergency. Learn to use one....
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 10, 2017 - 09:22am PT
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I climbed at in the '70s; no one ever got dropped Yeah - then the 80's came along and more people actually started applying force to those worthless belay systems and all hell broke lose.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 10:14am PT
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Yeah - then the 80's came along and more people actually started applying force to those worthless belay systems and all hell broke lose.
The reality is that hip belays were and are just as good for catching falls as any of the newer gadgets and perhaps a bit safer in extreme cases like factor 2 falls, where many of the current gadgets fail unless properly handled (the gri gri is an exception; it works in all orientations---at least when it works...)
In many cases, a mismatch between rope characteristics and the belay device means the belayer is critically underpowered and won't be able to hold a big fall (as they find out indirectly when they have a rappelling epic). This type of unrecognized functional inadequacy is a feature of modern technology combined with a sanguine attitude about testing one's belay abilities in situations beyond the usual trivial ones.
So the reality is just the opposite of the quote, because modern belay systems have a far larger range of variation than the old methods and so open up more, not fewer, opportunities for failures.
I agree with Joe that we never heard of climbers being dropped by belayers, but I don't think that such anecdotal observations rise to the level of any kind of statistical validity. That said, there is no question that the contemporary embrace of leader falls as a routine aspect of the endeavor, combined with modern climbing social norms and belay technology, have created an environment that first of all involves exponentially more falls while at the same time being more conducive to dropping than in the old days.
In view of this, it would be a surprise if there weren't a lot more dropping accidents per capita in the climbing world, but I don't think we have any good way of quantifying the comparison.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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Yeah - then the 80's came along and more people actually started applying force to those worthless belay systems and all hell broke lose.
This points out (perhaps unintended) that different systems can be employed in different situations and work, but that knowing which system to use when is an important part of climbing, at least in situations where you need to decide.
The adoption of belay devices in U.S. climbing was slow (as was the use of harnesses), the basic objection was introducing some unnecessary "link" in the safety "chain." As JLP points out, ideas of what was necessary changed as climbing changed. The "if you aren't flyin' you aren't tryin'" 80's certainly stressed the earlier systems.
The 1975 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog offers this item for the first time:
"salewa/stitch belay plate
This is an ugly device that looks like a cross between a hockey puck and a Slinky, but it can be an important aid in the event of a fall. This belay plate has a spring directed towards the carabiner to keep the rope from binding or catching against the plate during feeding. Should the climber fall, however, the spring compresses and a great amount of rope drag develops as the plate jams against the carabiner. This braking system will stop the fall automatically, without forcing the belayer to rely on strength alone. The belay plate also eliminates friction of the rope (and rope burn) on the waist during a fall. Recommended when the much heavier climber is being belayed by the lighter. Accepts both 9mm and 11mm ropes. Instructions included."
The desire for an "autolock" belay device seems have been a constant in climbing throughout what we might consider it's entire "modern" instantiation... (modern refers to the time the referrer started climbing).
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Outside the Asylum
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Dec 10, 2017 - 11:29am PT
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The widespread and often unnecessary use of the various "autolock" devices seems somewhat parallel to the adoption of much other safety gear - which often has the implicit result of encouraging people to take greater risks, and so not reducing risk at all, particularly given that people tend to assume that it does.
If nothing else, it's one more piece of specialized gear to lug around. If you can't use it for both belaying and rappelling...
Thinking back to Belaying the Leader, and the introduction of nylon ropes, the concept was to allow the rope to run, to reduce force on the rope and climber. Only with modern kernmantle ropes did locking devices become possible.
A hip belay, especially if the rope is routed through a carabiner, around the hip, and back through the carabiner, is very reliable for 'must not fail' situations. Wall climbing, belayer conked by rock, etc. The regular hip belay evolved from letting the rope run (dynamic) to (more or less) static. See Belaying the Leader. Many of those who learned to climb from the 1950s - 1980s learned well that belaying and rappelling were DFU territory, and that gear is no substitute for brains.
I enjoy occasionally doing a hip belay at the Little Smoke Bluffs at Squamish, or a carabiner brake. Essential techniques. Drop your fancy gadget, and there you are. (OK, I pass on the body rappel.)
Bouldering pads (+ modern orthopaedic surgery and therapy): higher and harder boulders.
Ice hockey, US football, etc: heavier padding, better helmets = culture accepting more numerous and much heavier impacts. (CTE, anyone?)
Avalanche transceivers, flotation devices: 1/4 to 1/3 of persons completely covered when an avalanche stops are DOA. After 30 minutes, most of the survivors are also dead. The whole point is not to get in an avalanche in the first place. The gadgets aren't a licence to be stupid.
Ski helmets: Why do people wear them when skiing uphill, in soft snow in the forest? I can see maybe using them at a downhill area with icy conditions, or where you want to ski fast, but???
Gear is never a substitute for brains and judgment.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:04pm PT
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The reality is that hip belays were and are just as good for catching falls as any of the newer gadgets and perhaps a bit safer in extreme cases like factor 2 falls Bull$hit - do you even lift, bro?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:21pm PT
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I don't lift (much), but I've caught 2 factor-2 falls in the real world with a hip belay, and about 20 simulated factor-1.8 falls, "simulated" meaning that a weight was used (~160 lbs) in a test situation rather than out on real rock.
This probably means I've caught more really severe falls than almost any younger rock climber, since the propensity to test and practice belays seems to have died with the hip belay. This experience is partially the source of the claim that the hip belay is not intrinsically worse---I should have said in practiced hands---than the modern gadgets.
As for the part about it being perhaps safer, note that many of the instruction manuals for both regular and assisted-braking tube-style devices suggest that they will not be effective in a factor 2 fall situation. This is not entirely accurate, but in order for a tube-style device to work, the belayer has to have adopted and palm-up belay grip, contrary to the way tubes are normally handled. With a palm-down grip, the device will supply almost no braking friction. Of course, another problem already-mentioned is that the particular device-rope combination may not provide enough friction for a stop.
Look, don't get me wrong, I've already made it clear that I use an assisted braking device most of the time. My point was and is that the old methods were pretty damn good and did not suddenly and inexplicably become inadequate in the 80's.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
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Dudes - seriously - bull$hit. Rgold should know well the physics are not so trivial as to be described by the amount of rope out.
Go take your hip belay nonsense to a modern sport area like Smith or Rifle - bunch of noobs on those big lines - not. Within about a half hour someone would have a firm conversation with you about your hip belay, within about 4 you’d be surrounded with threats of getting your butt kicked for endangering someones life.
Modern climbing is not doubles on some Gunks 5.6 with 50 pcs in, you could stop that fall with a pinkie if any weight at all ended up at the belay. Try routine and repetitive 20-50 foot falls on a 9.2 mm, rope running straight though about 5 clips. Everyone wearing leather gloves standing there with their 2nd grigri of the season - bunch of new age pussies - give me a break.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
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King Tut, I agree that it isn't data, but it isn't selective recollection either; I never heard about anyone being dropped. Among the many reasons that isn't data is that without an internet, communication about climbing events was nowhere near as extensive as it is now, so it would have been much easier for us to never know about adverse examples.
There's no way to know if the dropping situation would have been different if the hip belay had survived, not simply because we can't run that experiment, but also because the hip belay is just one of many interrelated factors in the evolution of climbing, and as several people have noted, the presence of at least semiautomatic braking has probably helped to diminish the seriousness belaying formerly enjoyed, and that diminished sense of seriousness, combined with the far more social aspect of gym and crag climbing, has led to a general drop in attentiveness. These interconnected influences make it impossible to separate out one thing like belay technique and pin a host of ills on just it.
JLP, you're right, there is a reason that technology developed, and I use it myself, as I keep emphasizing. Repeated catches of hard falls with a thin rope would certainly be a miserable experience. So no need for the snide comments about double ropes and 50 pieces. If anything the trivial-to-belay fall is much more a part of sport climbing.
In order to continue the argument, you have changed the subject. Your original post, the one I responded to, was
Yeah - then the 80's came along and more people actually started applying force to those worthless belay systems and all hell broke lose. In other words, you suggested that modern climbing brought with it higher forces that the hip belay couldn't handle, and my point is that is not true, the hip belay was fully capable of handling the biggest forces climbing can produce. (And by the way, those forces are considerably bigger than the Smith rock examples you mentioned.) Moreover, because of rope/device mismatches, some of the modern belay devices are more likely to cause a loss of control than the hip belay (in practiced hands) would. That's all.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 02:00pm PT
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JLP likes to adopt a stance of high dudgeon in these generational discussions...
...sort of like the Vulgarians pissing on the Appies or the Stonemasters on the Sierra Clubers.... only + 1 generation...
He'll be the attention of next-gen opprobium sooner than later... until then he provides a necessary reminder that times have changed in climbing, and generally for the better, especially where gear and practice are concerned.
Teachers know they're successful when their students surpass them, it has been said that "good universities have great professors and great students, that great universities have only great students" I think we can generalize that here.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 02:32pm PT
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Ed, as I think you know, the Appies had a hegemony over Gunks climbing that allowed them, for a while, to restrict climber's choices and behaviors. The Vulgarian "revolution" against that type of "dictatorship" is not quite the same as as the generational sourness evident here, as my comments don't interfere with anyone's ability to do anything they damn please.
But it is true that the climbing world has always been shaped by younger generations breaking at least some of the "rules" the older generation had lived by, with the resulting friction an inevitable feature of forward progress. I get it, and since I've been around so long I've been a part of somebody's concept of older generation for nearly 30 years, I'm also pretty used to it. But I would add that if teachers' fondest hope is that their student's surpass them, I don't think many wish for deprecation as the final result of their efforts.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 10, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
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I want to see the video - hip belay old dad guy getting violently ripped from his stance, pulled 20 feet into the air and slammed into the first bolt - repeat 10-20 times, never fuks up a detail. That video would go viral.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
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I want to see the video - hip belay old dad guy getting violently ripped from his stance, pulled 20 feet into the air and slammed into the first bolt - repeat 10-20 times, never fuks up a detail.
I think part of the technique is to be tied in, or have a bomber stance, so you don't get ripped up into a bolt 20' away. Sort of like positioning yourself in the outfield to catch the long fly ball, doesn't make the Web Gems, but does highlight the ability to anticipate.
I also usually tie in to the end of a rope, at least outside, since it is highly unlikely that I would be pulled through a belay device. But that's just me...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 10, 2017 - 03:52pm PT
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ripped from his stance, pulled 20 feet into the air and slammed into the first bolt - repeat 10-20 times,
That's sport climbing, rock jerkoff, with no flow, st00pid way to climb ...... :-)
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 04:14pm PT
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Haha Werner, getting lifted 20 feet and slamming into a bolt and then letting the same thing happen 19 more times is something only young guys with gri-gris know how to do properly.
(PS: if the gri gri cam hits the biner on the first draw, everyone is going to be in for a real big surprise.)
Sometimes, anchoring the belayer is worth considering: http://rockandice.com/videos/weekend-whippers/weekend-whipper-belayer-rocket/
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 10, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
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Snowing back there Rich....just back from Escalante Canyon (mini Indian Creek). Not a cloud in the sky or a breath of wind, climbed in t-shirts all day. The weather is really freakish. Off to Patagonia on Tuesday.
My ATC was so happy I believe I heard it purring. It got really wet and cold when I took it ice climbing two days ago. I think it enjoyed the sun as much as I did!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 04:28pm PT
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Tuesday: I'll be giving a calculus exam. Have a great trip Jim!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 10, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
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Dudes - seriously - bull$hit.
Yours is the only serious bullshit in this conversation. We were taking endless falls and plenty of long and hard wingers among them onto hip belays in the 70's. In fact, the first time I heard the phrase "the leader must not fall" I assumed it was a bad joke. I've also held all manner of falls including multiple FF2 falls with hip belays. And really, sport climbing belaying and holding sport falls as any kind of belaying challenge? Meh, now there's a frigging joke.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 10, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
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I want to see the video - hip belay old dad guy getting c - repeat 10-20 times, never fuks up a detail. That video would go viral.
And how would it be different if the old guy dad or young guy stud were using any other belay method?
Gri-gri? ATC? Munter?
Pick whatever method you like, if your partner takes a huge whipper, you're going to get "violently ripped from his stance, pulled 20 feet into the air and slammed into the first bolt".
But only if you're stupid enough not to rig your belay so that, no matter what belay device you're using, you don't go flying up to the first bolt.
Stupid argument.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Dec 10, 2017 - 08:37pm PT
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I fully agree that GriGris are safer than ATCs...FOR THOSE EXPERIENCED IN THEIR USE.
Problem is...the learning curve is not.
I am quite experienced using the GriGri and was a big fan...until I was dropped with one last summer.
Last bolt of an overhanging sport climb...experienced belayer and friend of 40 years (but not that experienced with GriGri).
I nearly decked. Neither of us knows exactly what happened but I bailed on the GriGri right there.
I still think it’s fine for belayers very experienced in it’s use...but there are better devices:
The Click-Up. Lighter, safer, far easier to master. No dangerous learning curve.
There’s at least one more but currently this is the bomb. My climbing friends agree.
Psyched to check out the Revo when it arrives.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
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Getting back on track, the Click Up is what Mei chose (although one "advantage" she cited, no moving parts, isn't true).
UKC recently (May 2017) did a review of assisted-braking devices and the Click Up came out on top, beating the Gri-Gris among others. https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=9402.
If your ropes are thinnish (8--10 mm), the Alpine Up has the same good handling characteristics as the Click Up and can be used for rappelling (with auto-stop feature) and guide-mode belays. It is about the size and weight of a Gri Gri, so neither super light (175g vs. 170g for Gri Gri 2 vs. 200g for Gri Gri +) nor super compact.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2017 - 09:31pm PT
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I was out climbing in the warm Californian sun. My first outing with a Click-Up and I'm completely sold. The free theatrical motion with both hands when paying out rope fast and generously reminds me of my good ol' ATC and made me giddy. No twist in rope after a full 70m rope belay and lower. Catching falls and lowering are easy peasy, ergonomical, and simply enjoyable. My partner might get climber's high after redpointing 5.12d, but if I had been asked, I'd have attributed that success to the flawless belay the Click-Up offered. And if Belayer's High is a thing, I think I got a taste of it.
While researching Click-Up, I got to read more about Alpine-Up and am now super intrigued by this versatile tool -- it's everything I wanted in one without some shorting comings of other similar products (such as Mega Jul). Now I wish I could get my hands on one to try it out in real life. (P.S. Really, there is no moving part on a Click Up.) (P.P.S. Really? There is a moving part on Click Up?)
Wow, this thread certainly has run away on its own. Did a quick scan of posts I missed, and I must admit many posts are lost on me. Not clear what points were being made and not sure why some people sounded pissed. Oh well, I just know that to my original question, some people already made the switch, some are considering, and some will never do (and sounded like they might even want to go back to their hip belays).
One point caught my eye and gave me an eureka moment. While previously I wasn't sure what made me switch (from ATC to an auto block device) originally, it just dawned on me that it was the climbing environment that changed and I simply adapted! For sure, more than a decade ago, the climbers I climbed with (including my mentors) did not go on a climb if they thought they might not get the climb clean. Falls were infrequent, unexpected, and usually surprising. Many climbers I climb with today (most younger than me) would jump on climbs we all knew were above their ability, and yet didn't think it would be a big deal if they fell. The new wave climbers have adopted falling as part of the fast track to getting to higher grades. These days, the mindset is if you are not falling, you are not pushing yourself. I'm pretty sure by percentage, climbers who weigh ropes when climbing are way more than in the old days.
Ah ha! Now I can see if someone who's been climbing for decades and still climb with old school climbers, an ATC is really all you need. Going back to hip belay? Yeah, why not?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 09:57pm PT
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Mei, it has a moving part. Below are two pictures and an explanation from http://www.mountaineeringmethodology.com/belay-device-click-up/.
The lever is the secret to the superior handling of the Click-Up. It keeps the carabiner in the semi-circular bottom well while slack is taken in or out, giving a very free-running feel. When the rope experiences higher tension, it and the carabiner depress the lever and then the carabiner rides up to the braking position.
By the way, the device will sometimes lock up when it shouldn't, perhaps because of an inadvertant downward pull on the brake hand. To unlock it, place the heels of both hands at the bottom of the device and shove it upwards (away from the harness). Your brake hand keeps its grip on the brake strand while doing this. A few practice shoves and you can do this instantaneously. Remember if you give the gadget to someone else to belay with to show them this release tactic!
If you get an Alpine Up, the same quick shoving tactic breaks it loose at the base of a rappel.
Speaking of rappels and the Alpine Up, I find it to be ok with 8.5mm ropes, but I wonder if it won't be too grabby with thicker strands. You can, of course, always thread it in non-locking mode, but then you lose the auto-stop effect.
The Click-Up feature means you can do something (no doubt not recommended by the manufacturer) that no other device does: you can lock it and it stays in locked position. With a quick catastrophe knot in the brake strand to be 100% safe, you can then let go of the belay in order to do something demanded by the moment: untangle a wayward snag, tie something onto a tag line for the leader, or (ahem) take a photo.
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
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Ahhh... but if I can’t see it and can’t touch it, guess I can’t mess with it or mess up because of it.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 10, 2017 - 10:21pm PT
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No, you can't mess up because of it, and if it fails (I've used mine for several years without any sign of it wearing out), it would probably make the handling much worse but will not result in a loss of braking, although at the first opportunity you'd probably want to rethread it in non-locking mode.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 10, 2017 - 10:40pm PT
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Depends on who the requesting partner is and the circumstances.
Properly operated autolocking systems engineer out a lot of the risk of being dropped so I default to them when I'm cragging and prefer to be belayed by one where it's a reasonable expectation.
The Reverso has is my default device in the alpine and longer rock routes where weight is a concern.
My partners are generally in the same mode.
Maybe there's a better device?
If someone I respected and cared about asked me to switch from my Reverso to a GriGri, it wouldn't seem like much of a concession.
I'm glad to see the discussion on rope diameter considerations.
Skinny ropes in the wrong devices can be disastrous.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2017 - 12:21am PT
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Properly operated autolocking systems engineer out a lot of the risk of being dropped...
Oh, I agree, but the incredible number of grigri drops puts a heavy burden on the qualifier "properly" and one can only guess what percentage of the total demographic likely operates them "properly" at a given time and what percentage is just an accident that hasn't happened yet. And that's the problem with the combination of grigris and a demographic this size - the likelihood of ever crossing even a 90% threshold of proper use is highly unlikely. And to compound that, the device can mask incompetence for an extended period time until it doesn't.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 11, 2017 - 12:34am PT
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The entire enterprise is fraught with peril and nobody gets out alive.
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pschwa
Social climber
The 9th Circle
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Dec 11, 2017 - 07:55am PT
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Not to contribute further to the somewhat OT directions this thread took some 40 posts back, but...
All of this talk of hip belays and belay practice might sound to a lot of younger climbers like a lot of hogwash, but there is video evidence available online! (And isn’t that the ultimate determinant of truth, of late?)
Here’s a video transfer of some 16mm film footage of belay practice and testing by the Mountaineering Section of the Potomac Appalachian Trail Club from 60-70 years ago. Compare this to the test given at most gyms, and it is hard to argue that there is much less emphasis given to belaying technique and proficiency (at least in some circles) than there once was. As for the trade-offs that can come with the replacement of technique with technology, that’s clearly not something limited to the world of climbing.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Dec 11, 2017 - 08:03am PT
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The song at the end of that video is classic.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 11, 2017 - 08:11am PT
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Neat video. Why is that voices on old videos always sound old? As I said earlier, I held a 100 ft. leader fall with a hip belay bitd with no harm to either one of us and the leader was wearing a swami...the marvels of a dynamic rope!
No, I don’t belay the leader that way anymore and I’m not still wearing a swami. I do, however, still occasionally use a hip belay for the second on moderate terrain that the second is moving quickly on.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 11, 2017 - 08:51am PT
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voices on the film? maybe when you get older you have a sense that preserving some of the lessons you learned could be helpful, and maybe even important, for those that are starting out. it seems that when you are young you are more engaged in doing...
and while this particular video doesn't have a bolt, and the object taking the whippers is particularly wooden, and the belayer is a woman, I'm certain it never went viral on the internet...
the idea of "dynamic" belaying has been around a long time and adapted to the particulars of the belay techniques. modern technologies have certainly increased the safety margins quite a lot.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Dec 11, 2017 - 09:34am PT
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The old bucket drop belay test of the RCS and SCMA was a great wake up call to novices that belaying was serious business for both ends of the rope. It definitely taught the importance of being in line with the anchor and climber!
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Dec 11, 2017 - 09:45am PT
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I fully agree that GriGris are safer than ATCs...FOR THOSE EXPERIENCED IN THEIR USE.
Problem is...the learning curve is not.
I am quite experienced using the GriGri and was a big fan...until I was dropped with one last summer.
Last bolt of an overhanging sport climb...experienced belayer and friend of 40 years (but not that experienced with GriGri).
I nearly decked. Neither of us knows exactly what happened but I bailed on the GriGri right there.
I still think it’s fine for belayers very experienced in it’s use...but there are better devices:
The Click-Up. Lighter, safer, far easier to master. No dangerous learning curve.
There’s at least one more but currently this is the bomb. My climbing friends agree.
Psyched to check out the Revo when it arrives.
Was the belayer using the method recommended by Petzl (what is often referred to as the "new" technique, although it's been around for years now)? https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/video/How-to-belay-the-leader-with-a-GRIGRI---Belaying-techniques
I'm curious whether any Grigri drops have occurred by someone even purporting to use the "new" technique, as opposed to ad hoc methods that seem to involve grabbing the entire device (including the cam) in hand. So far, I don't think I've heard of a drop by someone even purporting to use the "new" technique, but perhaps understandably given the incredibly gross negligence involved in dropping someone with a Grigri or anything else, the culprits don't often give many details.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 11, 2017 - 10:17am PT
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Everyone thought the rev A of the Cinch was the bomb, until it wasn't and a bunch of people wound up in the hospital due to an unforeseen design defect. Love the concept of some of these new devices, but I'm not interested in participating in their testing.
There's something to be said about reduced risk of unknowns of something that's been used by millions for a few decades.
For all the perceived flaws of the GriGri, it is still likely by far the most thoroughly tested and proven piece of any climbing gear ever. If you read and follow that manual, take the time to learn it, your chances of a failure are extremely low.
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CA Dreamin'
climber
San Jose
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Dec 11, 2017 - 10:50am PT
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To answer the question directly, I would not have a problem switching to an auto lock belay device for my partner if they requested it. After climbing for close to 18 years, I'm confident and comfortable belaying with any type of device, and to me, it's important that my partner has the utmost confidence and clear mind while leading. If that means I belay with an auto lock, then that's ok.
However, I have two quick stories that illustrate Donini's point that the competence of the belayer, regardless of the device, is paramount:
Anecdote 1 - I was at a plywood session, where a top roped climber was being belayed with a GRIGRI. Upon reaching the top, the experienced belayer cranked back on the handle, without their brake hand on the rope, and the climber plummeted to the concrete slab, bruising their heels.
Anecdote 2 - I was walking along the base of the Warm Up Wall in ORG, when a climber fell from the top of Crowd Pleaser. He stopped about five feet from the ground. He was belayed with a tube style belay device.
It could have been much worse for both climbers, and they were fortunate.
Scenarios where a health crisis (Exhibit A: Anker, Conrad), rock fall, or other unforeseen circumstance adversely affects a belayer's cognitive and physical functions are compelling arguments for an auto lock device. Fortunately, I have not found myself in one of those situations. And while carrying two devices is antithetical to the minimalist approach that I was taught, I would not have a problem making the switch, if my partner requested it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 11, 2017 - 11:01am PT
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If you read and follow that manual, take the time to learn it, your chances of a failure are extremely low.
Again, totally agree, but these qualifiers are clearly a heavy burden on the demographic as a whole.
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