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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 18, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
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Kevin said, with respect Ecofeminism:
This is a perfect example of one of the main fatal flaws of feminist ideology. I tend to agree, though I'm not very well read, and I have a copy of Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex, I haven't even cracked it.
Though, in Ken Wilber's Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality, he gives a fairly exhaustive critique of a good handful of feminist ideologies, and how they may or may not be conducive to a productive worldview, enabling unity.
But the point you've been making all along, Kev, with which I tend to agree, is that we should all be Ecofeminists, (yet, we don't need the label, or any specific alliance) and it shouldn't be predicated upon some overarching brutal Patriarchy. Matriarchy, Patriarchy, this that or the other, too much divisiveness.
In that wiki link, the divisiveness is one of the criticisms of Ecofeminism.
We respect our differences, we get along, and we work as a team, regardless of gender, race, creed, economic, social, or educational status.
Nationalism is a problem. Buckminster Fuller's A Critical Path, gets into a bunch of that, essentially saying we need to unify globally, get smarter at working on the technical problems of surviving as a race, together.
[edit] I will say those Ecofeminist women have done a lot of good for me, even if they posit (as a generality, which historically has held some water) I am the problem.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Sep 18, 2017 - 02:14pm PT
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This millennial bullshit about anybody being able to do anything falls on its face in the real world.
Tell that to Obama.
Tell it to Bill Clinton.
Tell it to Trump.
Susan
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Sep 18, 2017 - 03:06pm PT
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How about, the sum of a woman is equal to the sum of a man, in total human points? They just achieve those points through different paths.
Arne
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 18, 2017 - 03:08pm PT
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The survival of the human species requires around one man for every ten women or so. Hmmm....looks like we have a superfluous amount of men. Maybe that's why men post here in about a ten (make that more) to one ratio to women....lot's of time and nothing better to do. Men will do anything....as long as it makes them feel needed. Sigh...even though, deep down, they know they aren't.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 18, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
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DMT, that's awesome. I think we're making great strides!
DMT said:
I don't give a crap if its social engineering or what. Guess what, its ALL social engineering.
This sums it up perfectly!!
Roy, I think you are being led astray by the assertion (by those with an anti-feminist bent) that feminists consider classically male traits to be "bad," or that feminists think that using traditionally female traits to emotionally abuse men is somehow acceptable. Women are not inherently good, and feminists are NOT asserting that women are inherently good--women are just as capable as men of acting with violence, deceit, manipulation, and aggression. This attempt to invalidate the cause of gender equality by asserting that feminists think women are above reproach is absurd. If these writers really cared about any cause besides just shitting on feminism, perhaps they would tackle topics that actually matter, or acknowledge the fact that our patriarchal cultures does just as much to oppress men. The cause of feminism is truly also the cause of bringing awareness to domestic abuse against men, of allowing men to take paternal leave, of creating a society in which men can express themselves freely and be active parents, the list goes on...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 18, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
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I hope you're doing well, Cat. Since you've left our favorite forum topic, it's actually stabilized and gotten quite good for the moment. I have to say, we need you here. A bunch of guys talking about feminist influences is a bit like listening to one hand clapping.
.............................................
Interesting read in the New York Times this morning:
In Angela Merkel, German Women Find Symbol, Not Savior
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/world/europe/angela-merkel-germany-election.html?emc=edit_nn_20170917&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=77568457&te=1
During the election campaign — and in earlier ones — Ms. Merkel shunned the word “feminist.” She has rarely if ever publicly promoted the issue of advancement for women — and women in Germany have not advanced much.
“Just as Obama did not end structural racism in America, Merkel has not ended structural sexism in Germany,” Ms. Wizorek said.
The few women who do make it to the top, or close to it, speak of the constant torment of being judged.
“We get no respect from society as working women,” said Angelika Huber-Strasser, a managing partner for KPMG Germany and a mother of three. “They call us raven mothers,” after the black bird (also unfairly) accused of pushing its young out of the nest.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 18, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
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Cat,
If you carefully digest all of the posts since your last, and parse how I have handled my viewpoints since, I'm not sure you'll see that I am quite in the place you suggest.
Though I certainly hear you in your last paragraph, as a stand-alone statement, independent of my position.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 18, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
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I get you there, Kevin.
Or if I do, what you are saying or suggesting, is that to a great degree, in this country, we've made great strides, and are in fact cresting the hill? And your, and to some degree my contention, is that it's gotten a bit overwrought.
It's probably not as linear as all of this. Women have made great strides in this country, and they still have a ways to go. It's a question of how, n'est pas?
But yes, I thought the article about Germany was relevant, in that it points out that the pendulum needs some pushing over there. The question is, who's going to do it if not feminists?
I hope I'm not making things too complicated. Fact is, it's complicated!
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 18, 2017 - 04:24pm PT
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Roy,
I should clarify: I did not mean to imply that you'd adopted such a view. I suppose I meant to emphasize that when one agrees that the claims of straw-feminism are crazy, without pointing out that those are not claims put forth by actual feminists in this thread, it could send one running in circles after an enemy that was only ever imagined up.
And thanks. Yes, today's the day. sneaking away from the wormy neurons early for some fresh air...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 18, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
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10 four, girlfriend.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 18, 2017 - 04:45pm PT
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ionlyski sayeth:
How about, the sum of a woman is equal to the sum of a man, in total human points? They just achieve those points through different paths. Very nice.
So, for anyone who still has the Serena McEnroe dustup rattling around in their head, taking this ^, and after speaking with Lisa and Lynn Hill and listening to them parse that whole dustup, if McEnroe had been really on his toes, here's what he would've said:
Serena is the best female player who's ever lived. She's not the best player who's ever lived. But she is the most accomplished player who's ever lived, because in her category, she has 23 grand slams, and Federer has 19.
Dig?
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c wilmot
climber
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Sep 18, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
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Serena Williams is the best tennis player ever...who uses oxycodone and hydromorphone (opioids), prednisone, prednisolone, and methylprednisolone...
Off topic but it bothers me how we let our athletes cheat. Thankfully Russia exposed our hypocritical policies
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 18, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
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Okay, let's all go get a beer!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 18, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
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I'm not so sure that the whole "Moose" thing has been fully resolved to my satisfaction.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Sep 18, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
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If you need context on the origin of my feminism, I grew up in rural Texas. My public school sex-ed consisted of "don't unwrap your precious gift," no joke. The views of lawmakers toward birth control, sex-ed, and general medical care for women in my home state are appalling.I don't think there is some evil conspiracy by all men to oppress women, but as long as the lawmakers in the middle of our country remain committed to barring young women from accessing reproductive health resources, I will call myself a feminist.
Beer time ;)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 18, 2017 - 05:03pm PT
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Context is everything!
So is tone. Burp. (it's already 6:00 PM here)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 18, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
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Here too....drinking a nice pinot noir....burping is unthinkable, for the next few minutes.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 18, 2017 - 05:31pm PT
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STFU.
Kevie.
Br-a-a-ap.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 18, 2017 - 05:41pm PT
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So all these so called feminists and their so called equality can the do the heavy lifting?
My experience on sar is a lot of em turn quickly into little girls.
Have em carry the wheel, they run away.
Put some meat into the litter carry out and some just put their hand on the rail so you constantly are forced to compensate the litter becoming unbalanced on their weak side.
Oh but I climb hard sh!t and I'm SAR they claim, whoopity fukin doo.
BFD any monkey can do that, climb hard.
Sometimes I actually believe that poor cleaning lady at motel six has got more balls and brawns and she ain't no so called feminist .....
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 18, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
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Well as Vanilla Ice always said:
"Word to your mother" (Without whom you (and I) wouldn't be here).
And let's not forget apes can probably outclimb monkeys, depending upon how much strength and size is required.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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