A special post just for the Warbler: Hazel Findlay FA

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Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 8, 2017 - 11:33am PT
Hazel Findlay makes first ascent of Tainted Love, 5.13D R, Squamish.

A quote that should be of special interest to the Warbler, since its consistent with all of his notions of gender:

"Speaking to Hazel and Neil Dyer, the proposed grade is 5.13d R. Sounds spicy! To fill in a little history on the route, Squamish-local Neil Dyer originally top roped the route in 2015 but couldn’t find the headspace to lead the rig. According to Neil, leading the route is a real challenge with all the small gear and requires the climber to run it out to save energy and stick to the sequence. He reported that Hazel made a proper fight in the conditions it was sent and showed true tenacity in her head game. Neil reported it was one of the most difficult belays he had given and his legs were shaking at the end of it all."

http://squamishclimbingmagazine.ca/recent-news-hazel-findlay-makes-first-ascent-covetted-tainted-love-5-13/

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 8, 2017 - 11:37am PT

I did it! Whoop. So desperately... In the heat and the smoke. This route has the ability to completely wipe your memory of beta (since there are almost no holds and only one obvious feature). I feel like it was a team ascent with Neil Dyer inspiring me to go up there and belying me a tonne. We called it 'Tainted Love aka Northern Soul' after the song and the feeling of loving something like climbing but also kind of hating it sometimes (when your legs are burning and you feet hate you and you've forgotten whether to stem or to bridge.) I'd say it's 5.13d R placing the gear, 8b, or E8 6c. It's all on gear and placing the gear is definitely cruxy (tiny wires). I really hope someone repeats this thing because the climbing is crazy cool and I feel like this kind of technical but powerful climbing is a dying art.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 8, 2017 - 11:39am PT
But can she find the descent trail without supplemental testosterone?
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2017 - 11:50am PT
No Jon, she is still lost on top of the chief...she's waiting for the warbler to rescue her
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 8, 2017 - 12:04pm PT
Yes, I would think the word "art" applies to a climb like that. Placing widely spaced, tiny stoppers while negotiatng extreme terrain is a fair step up from gunning to the next pre-hung quick draw a body length away. It goes boys!
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 8, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
Fuc%in A ..... 13D R

Climbers are doing the most amazing things today.

Hats off.

Respect
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2017 - 12:41pm PT
So, Warbler, to summarize:

1) its not a trad climb because she top-roped it first, probably
2) she stole all the beta from the dude Neil, probably.
3) no one else could do the pure stemming route because they didn't have small girl fingers like her
4) 13D R is not cutting edge anyways

Am I missing anything?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 8, 2017 - 12:42pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Aug 8, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
So, Warbler, to summarize:

1) its not a trad climb because she top-roped it first, probably
2) she stole all the beta from the dude Neil, probably.
3) no one else could do the pure stemming route because they didn't have small girl fingers like her
4) 13D R is not cutting edge anyways
You forgot
5. In order for women to climb as hard as men they must consistently climb harder than men.
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2017 - 01:27pm PT
My comment about trad climbing went over your head, Matt, the term trad is one of my pet peeves. I'm guessing you haven't been climbing for fifty years, like I have, so your concept of "traditional" climbing is different than mine, whatever,

the different definitions of "trad" are irrelevant. I was simply pointing out that one of the many ways you trivialized this climb was by assuming that she top roped it first.


Which is it these days Matt? I'm sure the distinction has been debated in gender studies

Not sure what question you're asking me-- what does the "it" refer to?
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Aug 8, 2017 - 01:48pm PT
Awesome looking route! I went through a period of leading hardish (5.11/ easy .12) stem box climbs at Paradise Forks- lots of small gear, powerful stemming- physically and mentally challenging for sure. I can't imagine cranking that up to 5.13d R. Impressive!
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2017 - 01:55pm PT
Is "IT" PC to call a female a heroine

She said he belayed her "a tonne".

Maybe she didn't toprope it, or hang, or preplace gear while she was working it, or yoyo it, or preview it on rappel.

Y'know, traditional style!

She never claimed to do it in "traditional" style. She (and her partner) just said it was the first no-falls lead of the route. Judging from the instagram picture, it doesn't look like the gear was pre-placed, but who knows.
i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Aug 8, 2017 - 01:59pm PT
Maybe she didn't toprope it, or hang, or preplace gear while she was working it, or yoyo it, or preview it on rappel.

Y'know, traditional style!

...ie. un-Tainted!

Either way hella gem stem!
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Aug 8, 2017 - 02:13pm PT
"traditional" refers to dudes with short-shorts with their nutsack hanging out and tight shirts doing runout hand drill 5.11 in California. way homo.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 8, 2017 - 02:25pm PT
Warbler, don't you know its become socially and politically incorrect to state the obvious anymore? Facts and statistics are not to be used, instead what someone feels should be, should be.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 8, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
Carry on.

This SO blows the doors off politics!

I love you [people]!
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Aug 8, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
Hazel is so rad and badass. Maybe she'll be the first to repeat Beth Rodden's "Meltdown," maybe the hardest crack in the country? Anywhere? Still waiting for the boyz to man-up on that one. These days, I expect the little fillies to out-climb me--always. Well, most people can out-climb me, including all those fetuses at the gym, little rat bastards!

BAd
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 8, 2017 - 02:42pm PT
Guys, as with dadz, is generic, not genetic!


Don't copy.


Please repeat.


Great going, Hazel.
Ghost Bear

Social climber
Aug 8, 2017 - 02:47pm PT
The dainty fingers comment was mostly a troll to rile the heforshes and their feminist heroes, er, heroines.

Is it trolling to just be a d#@&%e? I thought you had to be more subtle/wittier than that...

What's the hardest stemming corner you've climbed, Warbler? And when was that?

Edit to add: I think Findlay is pretty f*#king awesome. Maybe that makes me biased.
Ghost Bear

Social climber
Aug 8, 2017 - 02:58pm PT
Ever try driving a one inch...

Well, I guess that explains it. My sympathies.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Aug 8, 2017 - 03:13pm PT
What a thread! Climbing AND clever banter...gotta love it!

Fukkin A Hazel! That thing looks scary as heck.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Aug 8, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
I thought a clean hoohoo was a good thing
Cause it wouldn't be fair if your president had to grab a dirty one?

You're not a dooshnozzle they're too good for you.
You're a Trumpnozzle
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Aug 8, 2017 - 03:24pm PT
compare to Book of Hate in Yos.
same grade

Tainted Love is shorter
Tainted Love doesn't have bolts
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2017 - 03:26pm PT
compare to Book of Hate in Yos.
same grade

Tainted Love is shorter
Tainted Love doesn't have bolts

Hazel did book of hate 6 years ago, so she could compare the two...

https://hazelfindlay.wordpress.com/2011/10/23/book-of-hate-5-13d-apparently/
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 8, 2017 - 05:26pm PT
Bloody amazing.

I can say that, and more.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 8, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
Anybody see Stephy Graff last night on America ninja warrior doin the splits between the Cubes? Looked awesome! The boys couldn't do it tho
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 8, 2017 - 07:44pm PT
OP introduced the idea by calling out Kevin. Argue his point but realize that, and that he is having fun watching y'all freak out. Me too!


Agree on Trad being overused. I think it's time to retire that word in print.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 8, 2017 - 07:49pm PT
it's always interesting when a long standing project goes down!

congrats to Hazel (and sorry for kicking stones down on you and James in the Iota Chimney that day...)

jstan

climber
Aug 8, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
Seems to me we need to imagine an encounter with Ueli in a pub somewhere. And imagine small talk with him over a beer. And imagine how important that encounter would be to us.

And as to the gender based discussion......

My daughter and I were standing looking at a neighbor's thousand pound yearling steer who was born the same day as my daughter. I said to Kristy, "the two of you were born on the same day. What's with you Kristy?"

She replied, "Now daddy. You are being silly again."

On the day of our birth, all of us have nearly everything we will ever need.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 9, 2017 - 02:13pm PT
That's cool. She showed the men that she was more mentally able to climb than they were!

But don't hold your breath waiting for them to notice. That kind of thing can be a threat to the safe-space escape of their climbing identity.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
Well, one thing's for sure: Kevin doesn't work at google...
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
Well, one thing's for sure: Kevin doesn't work at google

Has Kevin graduated from high school? Didn't he move to Yosemite at a young age... Those sorts of things make it hard to get a tech job...
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Aug 9, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
Awesome achievement for Hazel.
Great gender banter by several.
One lesson for me:
(I'll never make a claim in public about driving a one inch anything.)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2017 - 05:51pm PT
https://medium.com/@Cernovich/full-james-damore-memo-uncensored-memo-with-charts-and-cites-339f3d2d05f

More erudite than most white male oppression screeds, but its core is rooted in some pretty f*#ked up and misogynous pseudo-science.

But then he came up through chess / math / coding as a kid so about par for the course as all three worlds have misogynous elements and histories that are still playing out today. And while I don't know if he's also a gamer, but that world in particular has a long track record of outright hostility towards women.

Having a similar chess / microbiology / software engineering background and having worked in the business for decades I can comfortably say guys like him are unfortunately still a dime a dozen.

Adios and good riddance amigo.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Boise, ID
Aug 9, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
Kevin...If you have "a team", you're doing it wrong.
Good luck.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Aug 9, 2017 - 06:09pm PT
I think one of Kevin's main points, which flies in the face of today's gender equality movement, is that there are indeed differences between males and females, thankfully. That's how we got here and it's required a teamwork of males and females because we each have different strengths (as a whole). And it has come to the point where even saying that is blasphemy. We should be celebrating our differences. I for one don't want to live in a mono-gender world.

Arne
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Aug 9, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
what if diversity meant that men were appreciated and employed for their strengths

WWE franchises would spring up in every town.



Susan
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
This form of misogyny is entirely ideological vs personal and little different than the beliefs around women in the Mideast. In Damore's particular case he tries to rationalize it with biology, but repeatedly gets it wrong. But then when it comes to male oppression it really doesn't matter a wit whether the 'victims' try to rationalize their beliefs with religion or pseudo-science - they're all starting with a belief women are inferior and working backwards to justify it.

Again, his is more erudite than most, but whether it's typical conservative like him, a southern baptist, or a sunni / shia muslim, it's all the same sh#t different day and that day has passed in corporate governance and policy in this and most industrialized nations.
nah000

climber
now/here
Aug 9, 2017 - 08:13pm PT
ok don the warblioxte [and now with his companion ionlysancha panza]...

looks like you're still tilting at the same windmills... and fighting swordsmen of your own manufacture.

if not, can you guys please name the actual names of the people who say there are no average sex differences?

because i posit those people don't exist, despite your claims that that is what you are fighting...

given how hard you are fighting, you must have whole lists of the feminazis, the heforshes and the dreaded "third wave feminists", who claim that there are no average sex differences other than physical form and socially constructed ones between males and females.

i find it curious because i know a bunch of people from all three categories, including those that i've read on this board, and not.a.single.one makes the argument that you say they/we are making...

but i know, it's much easier to be a successful warrior when you are fighting windmills rather than the actual stated opinions of those you are discussing with. /s

i await your reply...



as per the google doc doc... and here is what i believe is generally understood to be the original

of course you can't see the problem, because he uses the same bait* and switch** strategy that you [the warbler] yourself use.

* [the google dude starts by saying things like These differences aren’t just socially constructed and Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions]

** [and then he proceeds to present a whole list of "facts" that have no little or no scientific founding, but more importantly don't quantify the actual difference, assuming they exist, all while subtly contradicting his opening "bait" points, by subtly and not so subtly arguing and concluding that the differences we see in the tech industry are necessarily due to physical rather than an intermixture of both physical and cultural differences]

i'm tempted to do a line by line to explain, but given you can't see the blatant and regular sexism in your own statements [my personal favorites - but not nearly unique - have, to date, been Women should, and do, revel in the fact that they don't do the stupid, dangerous sh#t men do. or And women have strengths that men will never have - they're just not as obvious. Mens' strengths are mostly overt, females' - not so much.] it'd be a waste of time.

while the google dude presents a much more refined and almost politically correct version of your own overt sexist argument... at its heart it is exactly the same flawed argument that you make...



but don't see this as an admonishment to stop making war with your windmills...

i do, myself, believe their surrender is nigh... ;)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2017 - 08:20pm PT
Specific example from the memo, healyje?

Did you read the memo?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 9, 2017 - 10:08pm PT
Nothing at all jumped out at you, huh?

[He's a bright boy and elaborated right down to cites; it wasn't something he intended to be skimmed...]
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Aug 10, 2017 - 06:44am PT
I think one of Kevin's main points, which flies in the face of today's gender equality movement, is that there are indeed differences between males and females, thankfully. That's how we got here and it's required a teamwork of males and females because we each have different strengths (as a whole). And it has come to the point where even saying that is blasphemy. We should be celebrating our differences. I for one don't want to live in a mono-gender world.

Arne


Agreed. Well put Arne.
The sad thing is that stating this in the wrong circles can get you labeled a misogynist. Yet its what my wife and I teach and instill in our daughters. If more people embraced this ethos the world would be a better place.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 10, 2017 - 08:26am PT
Larry Nelson for the win! ...and what Arne said

The only things I learned from this thread...way to go Flathead!!!

Hey, are you 2 smoked out up there? It's getting worse here by the day and they are looking to evacuate SeeleyLk due to smoke, good luck with that!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 10, 2017 - 08:41am PT

If, when a girl performs at a high level,
your mind always finds five reasons
why it isn't as impressive
as when a boy performs at a high level...

I tell you, man...
your mind has got a problem...
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 10, 2017 - 09:15am PT
And the reason we all should fight gender bias is that so they don't have to lead a life of verbal abuse by old has-been windbags of any kind so they can be empowered to live the life of their choosing and succeed.

^^^ this!! Applied to both men and women, of course.

There are biological differences between the genders. That doesn't mean you can tack that sentence at the end of an offensive argument and automatically shut down any disagreement.

Also, daaaaamn, Hazel! She's rad.
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2017 - 09:57am PT

What part of my argument do you find offensive?

As I and others pointed out, in this thread, the first thing you managed to do is find many different ways to belittle Hazel Findlays F.A. (she toproped it first; stole beta from a guy; has small fingers that made it possible for her to do it when men failed; 13D R is not cutting edge).

If I had put up this same post, with a guy doing the FA, think about whether you would have said any of those things.
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Aug 10, 2017 - 10:10am PT
She says it's harder than either the PreMuir corner or Book of Hate because of the obtuse angle

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/71227/tainted_love_-_new_squamish_e813d_corner_by_hazel_findlay
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2017 - 10:32am PT
Don't forget, Matt, this is all in the context of you attempting to taunt me in the OP about my now famous opinion that female climbers cannot outperform male climbers across the climbing spectrum due to biological differences btw the sexes.

In previous threads, you had made the point that women don't do FAs and don't do scary/dangerous climbs. I thought that this climb was a nice counter-point.

Didn't say she toproped it first, that she "stole" beta from her partner, or that it was possible for her to do because of small fingers. Only suggested that those were possible advantages she had as a 5'2" female climbing with a guy who had already worked the route.

You insinuated all those things to belittle her achievement. If a guy had done the FA, you would have never insinuated those things.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Aug 10, 2017 - 10:38am PT
Only suggested that those were possible advantages she had as a 5'2" female climbing with a guy who had already worked the route

I see, now she has advantages because of being small and likely small fingers.

From your previous discourse I would have thought you were making an argument that testosterone and pure on "maleness" should have trumped any female physique advantage. You present no rational for why some male stud climber didn't crush it first.

Having a reasoned, intelligent, and robust discussion with you, well at a minimum requires the first two....not just being a bull dog with a bone. Yup, an ad hominen attack. Suck it up buttercup....your testosterone fuled (or Mr Blue supplement) manhood should be able to take it.


Susan
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 10, 2017 - 11:06am PT
I see, now she has advantages because of being small and likely small fingers.

It's funny, isn't it? Whenever amazing accomplishments by women are presented, Kevin's response is basically, "it's not a fair comparison, because women have all these genetic advantages that make them better at climbing."
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 10, 2017 - 11:08am PT

I think this will come to an interesting end.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Aug 10, 2017 - 11:09am PT
Whenever amazing accomplishments by women are presented, Kevin's response is basically, "it's not a fair comparison, because women have all these genetic advantages that make them better at climbing."

Warbler is trapped in his own personal "echo chamber" ;-)
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Aug 10, 2017 - 11:10am PT
A misogynist is a man who hates women...
as much as women hate each other.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 10, 2017 - 11:18am PT
A misogynist is a man who hates women...
as much as women hate each other.

Women hating women is just another example of culturally-ingrained misogyny. Women are very supportive and loving to one another when they aren't conditioned to think their worth is based on their unique value to men.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 10, 2017 - 11:30am PT
This jumped out at me...

Really? That's what jumped out at you first? Don't know whether to shake my head or just say wow. That's some fine selective reading you're doing there.
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Aug 10, 2017 - 11:56am PT
Hey Kev,

Maybe you can tell us more about the FFA of the Nose and how that wasn't "cutting edge"?


Hey Kingtut I'll let Kevin answer for himself, but I don't think he is trying to persuade anybody that "No woman has ever been better than any man or all men" in anything. Nor would he (in my opinion) think that Lynne's historic FFA on the Nose wasn't cutting edge. From reading his posts over the past months it seems like he's simply making the point that women and men are not equal....and that hard core feminism is off base in its claims and motive. Or something like that. I'm sure he'd agree that what Lynne did on the Nose was outrageous and top notch and better than any man on the planet at the time. But it still didn't make "women" better than "men."

Her ascent was an outlier in the female community. My 14 year old son is faster than the fastest female swimmer in the world, Katie Ledecky. Women do rad things, and are better than many men in many things. But they are DIFFERENT. And when it comes to climbing and swimming and being a NAVY SEAL and weightlifting and track and field, MOST WOMEN ARE NOT AS STRONG OR AS EQUAL OR ACCOMPLISHED AS MOST MEN. Its no big deal. Stating that does not make somebody a misogynist. I dunno....you guys just keep spinning in circles with these statements and claims and jabs. Its entertaining but it would be cool if yall took the time to actually listen to each-other's points in an educated and thoughtful way. This is a good conversation to have when people listen to each other.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 10, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
The parts that are entirely misogynistic are where he attempts to connect gender biology to organizational role suitability, fitness, behavior and performance within the tech world.

P.S. My ex has been eating morons like this alive for decades by giving them enough rope to thoroughly pontificate on their technical brilliance all the while condescending to the women in the room at which point she would begin a very public, humiliating and possibly career-ending castration. Crikey, insufferable f*#ks like this are unfortunately a dime a dozen in tech.
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Aug 10, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
^^^^^^

Roger that. I agree. That would be different.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 10, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
From reading his posts over the past months it seems like he's simply making the point that women and men are not equal....and that hard core feminism is off base in its claims and motive.

The initial post that drew me into this years-long Supertopo Gender War was as follows:
To expand on my perspective that women are responsible for the explosion in climbing's popularity, I think an increase in female participation has all but tamed the wild beast that climbing was 50 years ago when I started climbing mountains.

Sure that beast is alive and well where climbers endeavor to hunt it down, but the animal that the vast majority of today's climbers want to hang out with is more of a finicky pussy cat, or a tail wagging, leg humping pup.

Also tamed is the climbing media, ST included. Balls and boldness are no longer an integral part of the game, and the climbing media cowers consistently at the growling and barking dogs of feminism. The entities that profit from climbing, more than ever, have to keep women happy, and that requires good manners.

Women may not be on the front lines where raising the standard of climbing goes, but they're first in line where money and climbing meet.

I take no offense at the assertion that men and women are different. I take no offense at the assertion that the average man is stronger than the average woman, though it is always worth noting that interacting with humans is about individuals, not averages. What bothers me, rather, is this assertion that women are inherently less bold, less brave, and less capable of pushing boundaries than men (in climbing and in every other aspect of life). Kevin explicitly stated this as his belief in previous threads. Though he has softened his rhetoric slightly, I (and probably others) still hear that implicit accusation (that women cannot be brave) in all of his comments about women and climbing. I suppose I could ask directly: Kevin, have we changed your mind? Will you acknowledge this: women may be, on average, fatter and slower and more likely to criticize themselves, but they are just as capable of boldly tackling challenges...?
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Aug 10, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
rbord posted
That's cool. She showed the men that she was more mentally able to climb than they were!
Mental strength is frequently far more important than physical strength, and as many or more of the mentally strongest people I've ever known were women.
Women novice climbers often perform better than men, because the guys pull up or hang on their arms more, whereas the ladies intuitively balance on their feet.

Good points by cat t AND The Warbler.

Edit; A friend just sent me this you tube.
[Click to View YouTube Video]


micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Aug 10, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
I see your point Cat.

What bothers me, rather, is this assertion that women are inherently less bold, less brave, and less capable of pushing boundaries than men.

I'm always intrigued by the "inherent" differences in all of us. I would agree that there seems to be something in many women that is inherently less bold than men....which has given way to less opportunity historically for women to be put into situations where they can become or act brave and push boundaries. Minus the women who were outliers and have showed feats of amazing strength and courage and daring and adventure when given or forced into the opportunity. Amelia Earheart and other fantastic, bold women adventurers come to mind. We're talking as a whole about the interesting concept of nature vs. nurture here I think. We all agree that certain individuals have a "nature" that can be shaped by the "nurture".....a scaredy cat young boy being taught to box and becoming a brave young lad on the streets after sticking up for himself with a bully one day....etc.

My wife being orphaned in the streets of Korea...tiny and malnourished, who gets adopted, grows up with white folks in Oklahoma and becomes one of Americas best swimmers...becoming an American record eventually.

It would be interesting to try and flesh out the "inherent" nature as a whole of each sex.....men vs. women, and then see how their environment can and does shape them. I think if we all learn more about our "inherent" nature,....men...women...individuals...it can help us overcome our weaknesses and help us do great things.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Aug 10, 2017 - 12:32pm PT
And when it comes to climbing and swimming and being a NAVY SEAL and weightlifting and track and field, MOST WOMEN ARE NOT AS STRONG OR AS EQUAL OR ACCOMPLISHED AS MOST MEN.

You may be generally right, but I think there's an exception in climbing thin cracks.
Even then, it may be true that most women aren't as good as most men, but I'm not so sure.
Having smaller fingers and hands (and perhaps feet in some instances) is such an advantage that it may well outweigh the advantages that men (on average) have.
At some point, crack climbing becomes impossible for certain hand sizes.
I think we've seen that on Meltdown, which will likely never be climbed by an average sized man. (Perhaps a little boy could do it.)

In climbing in general, it's hard to say, but it seems clear that any advantage men have over women is MUCH less than they have in weightlifting or track and field. (I don't know anything about swimming, but I can believe the difference is big there too.)

The differences are very obvious: in climbing, weight is huge, and women on average weigh less than men. Women who are 5'2'' and 110 pounds or less are very common; men sized like that are extremely rare.
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2017 - 12:38pm PT

Climbing is a very wide ranging activity, with roughly equal numbers of male and female participants

I think you've been climbing long enough to know that is not true today, and has never been true.

I'm done with this thread.
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Aug 10, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
You may be generally right, but I think there's an exception in climbing thin cracks.

Actually, most women are actually just better and stronger climbers than me in general. That's why I climb ridges. I have very strong calves. But I fall off of finger cracks.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 10, 2017 - 01:05pm PT
I suspect Brooke and Scott might disagree with your rearview mirror assessment...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 10, 2017 - 01:24pm PT

The truth has no sexist bias, but the selective use of truth to the advantage of one of the sexes has a sexist bias.

It would be interesting to hear about the male use of anabolic steroids during the 80s. How many American climbers had the advantage of using steroids? Telling this story would be to turn it around once more.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 10, 2017 - 01:33pm PT

The crux pitches of The Nose are 1500+ ft off the deck. Not that many climbers capable of climbing at that level want to do it with an approach like that.

The rest of the route is moderate free climbing difficulty by today's standards.

In my view Kev is selectively using part-truth and even displaced "truths" to the disadvantage of women. He' doing this repeatedly and systematically. Like judging Hill's ascent of The Nose by today's standards.

There's more exceptional freaks of nature among men than among women, but you also find exceptional freaks of nature among women.
BigB

Trad climber
Red Rock
Aug 10, 2017 - 01:34pm PT
For Marlow: east germany female body builder from 1980's..
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 10, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
BigB.

In DDR the state-run sportsadministration fed drugs (possibly telling it was vitamins) to both men and women. In the US individuals administered to themselves, which because of cultural norms meant that more men took the stuff in the US.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 10, 2017 - 01:51pm PT
Well, if the nose is just a pile, and the Zodiac is both harder and better quality...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
cleo

Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
Aug 10, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
be careful what you teach your kids..
different strengths -> different roles for boys and girls.

Yet its what my wife and I teach and instill in our daughters. If more people embraced this ethos the world would be a better place.

Reminds me of my childhood, when I questioned why women couldn't be Catholic Priests. My parents had a whole speech about different strengths and different roles, trying to convince me that just because a woman couldn't be a priest, it didn't mean women were less important, blah blah.

I love my parents, but that explanation sounded like a load of horsesh#t, and was one of the very first things that lead me AWAY from Catholicism and to question religion as a whole.
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Aug 10, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
Was that Jessica Watson? She was bad to the bone! Followed her story mile by mile. Amazing and inspiring.
DanaB

climber
CT
Aug 10, 2017 - 02:45pm PT
3 (?) ascents in 14 years.

Denominators of the world, unite!
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Aug 10, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
I think the future will bring the sexes closer and closer together in performance on average, as it is a strength in proportion to body weight sort of sport with who knows what new outliers?

I agree. In some athletic venues it seems probable/inevitable.

But some sports like swimming and track and field (which are highly strength to weight driven) will probably never get there. Its a strange thing. The men and women in swimming, despite amazing things done by gals like Katie Ledecky and Missy Franklin, are MILES apart. MILES. Like I hinted upthread, the fastest women in the world....and we are talking true outliers.....ladies who are light years beyond theier female competitors.....are about the speed of a pretty good high school boy. I remember being a freshman in high school and thinking it was cool that I had just broken the women's world record in the 100 FREE.

I think it was recently noted that the fastest 100M freestyle female in the world was about 4,900th in the world if compared to men. Pretty wild and an interesting phenomenon considering how amazing these female athletes are.

AKDOG

Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
Aug 10, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
It's a lot like chess, they can move in any direction they want

And everyone wants more women in the suffrage game

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/sports/trans-siberian-race-russia.html



'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 10, 2017 - 06:35pm PT
Hey Kevin,

When was the last time you got laid?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 10, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
Why?

1) She's competent. She gets it. She understands big wall climbing systems.

2) She's smart. She listens to instructions, and follows them to the letter the best of her ability, meaning that she is a quick learner.

3) She has the head for the game. She is not easily frightened, in fact, she is more afraid of being afraid than actually being afraid. Get it? You used to climb, so I assume you do.

4) She loves big wall camping! She is great at living high above the ground, and she always maintains a positive attitude, even when the sh|t hits the fan and the going gets tough, and she could even die - she focuses.

5) She can haul, and she actually likes it.

6) There is no sixth thing.

7) She is unabashably adorably cute, and every time I look in her eyes, and see her smile, my heart melts.

8) She is reliable. She never keffles. When she says she'll climb, she does.

There are eight answers to your question.

Kevin Worral - answer my question: when was the last time you got laid?
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 10, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
Answer the question, Kevin Worral: When was the last time you got laid?

Or is buddy above correct? [see comment re. 1" angle piton]

Kevin: they do not call me "Pass the Pitons" Pete for nothin'.....
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 10, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
Oh ... you edited your post. [pussy] [d#@&%e canoe]

Note: latter comment supplied by Anita514, classic!

"I don't place a high value on "getting laid", Pete, but I'm surrounded by possibilities"

You don't place a high value on getting laid, Kevin Worral? Well that's a damn good thing, because YOU AIN"T NEVER GONNA GET LAID WITH AN ATTITUDE LIKE THAT!!!!

Everyone is surrounded by possibilities, dude. Possibilities of great first ascents, possibilities of making great business investments, possibilities of making great choices that affect one's future, possibilities of writing lame-ass posts on an internet forum constantly, thus undermining one's likelihood of ever getting laid [by a girl] in this, or even the next, lifetime, etc.

Each man makes choices, and each choice he makes has consequences.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 10, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
^^^ Zactly.

Ka-CHING!
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Aug 10, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
Zing!


"I don't place a high value on "getting laid",

....

.....
.........
.
.
.
.

.


.
.
.
.

Said no one ever.



'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 10, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
Oh my gosh! I'm about crying here in my Chardonnay!!! Kevin is something special, indeed. He's truly One of a Kind.

Kevin Worral ... you're up! Take us on! Bring out the gloves!! You've got the attention of Anita514!!!!!!!!!!11111

And how many times do I have to ask you to ANSWER THE QUESTION:

How long has it been since you have been laid? Please provide the answer in minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, or in your case ...

...decades.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 10, 2017 - 07:28pm PT
1) Because you're a total do-uche, and the fact that you can provide no answer to the simplest of all questions proves this.

2) I totally get it, dude, and a lot more regularly than a do-uche like you.

3) Probably early 80's. Pretty darn hard, up here in Ontario. Check the index in the guidebook. Look up the name Zabrok. It occurs frequently. I suck at free climbing these days, however, as it would require training, discipline, denial, not to mention less junk food, beer and wine. I love being an aid climber - I can get up off the couch each season and go climb El Cap by its hardest routes without any training whatsoever!

When was the last time you climbed a pretty hard free climb, Kevin?

4) "Especially with a chick"? See number 1. Ha. You couldn't climb an El Cap nailup if someone handed you a pecker and put it in your hand. But you have used your pecker so infrequentl, except in your hand, it explains clearly why you would [and do] turn down a piece of ass. Perhaps you should try men ass? Perhaps you would be more successful? Just a suggestion....

5) Patience? What do I need patience for? Didn't you see the bit above? Anita is pretty competent....

6) There is no sixth thing.

7) When I was a hardman free climber back in the day,I used to poo-poo the guys who were climbing with their girlfriends. For back then, there were few women who could climb hard. [how times have changed!] I used to think, "These guys are missing out climbing 5.10 or 5.11 because they are doing easy routes with their girlfriends."

Nowadays, I have a different take: How wonderful it is to share my passion and climb big walls with the woman I love, who is my best friend?

I feel truly blessed.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 10, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
Good for you!

Good ol' Kevin Worral.

You're a helluva guy.

[P.S. Now please ... answer my question, will ya? Is it that hard? ]


Edit: Oh my gosh, NOW I get it. It's NOT that hard! Because IT doesn't GET HARD any more.

That explains it totally.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 10, 2017 - 07:43pm PT
OK, concur. It's kind of a lame post to hate on a hater, just because someone climbs a good climb. Good on Hazel.
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Aug 10, 2017 - 08:54pm PT
I think we have all learned a great deal from this thread.

1. Hazel Findlay is bad to the bone and a better climber than any of us sitting here squabbling about women's skillz.

2. Men and women are different

3. Pete and Kevin need to get a room!

4. There is no fourth thing. I gotta run...... sending my daughter back to college at Auburn Univ back in Alabama (proud papa here) tomorrow morning first thing. She is a swimmer there and broke our hearts by going all the way across the country rather than taking that swim scholarship at UCLA! I can't believe she moved that far away from California. We told her "it's OK, our feelings aren't hurt, we love your brother more anyway."



ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Aug 10, 2017 - 10:44pm PT
You shake hands before the beginning of the last round
(boxing rules)
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 11, 2017 - 07:18am PT
Having seen lots of newcomers to climbing it seems to me that women get it before the guys do. Women start out right away climbing with their feet and in balance. The guys try to muscle through everything.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 07:26am PT
Whew, thanks for the respite Warbler. I was afraid you and Piton Pete were gonna whip out your tools for examination ;-)

Good article on one of the worlds great endurance races. They can't find enough women.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/sports/trans-siberian-race-russia.html?nytapp=true

Edit:
I have observed the same superior intuition of novice women climbers as Gary above.
Edit 2:
Good point by Warbler above on the power of women over men.




GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 11, 2017 - 08:00am PT
I disagree with a lot of Kevin's points but the misinterpretation of what he says, straw men arguments and ad hominem attacks show that many people know what to think but not how to think because rather than give good arguments we have to "take him down a peg" because we disagree.

Can't you just disagree?

"Progressives" lol
WBraun

climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 08:05am PT
Women start out right away climbing with their feet and in balance.

Except for the ones that can't climb at all period and don't even belong there.

Not everyone is made out to be a climber .......
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:12am PT
Well, this thread deteriorated. Mocking someone for their "lack of a woman" is still treating women like a commodity. Who the hell cares? A woman isn't a thing you earn. Nor should we celebrate this supposed "power" women have to extort men with their sexual wiles. An embarrassing exchange...

Anyway. I think the gender-imbalance question is two separate issues woven together. There's this question of "why aren't there more women in climbing or physics or some other male dominated sport?" There are many answers, and on this topic I think there is plenty of room for rational disagreement. The second question, though, is "since there are ALREADY women (a minority, but they exist) at the top levels of climbing and physics and other male-dominated fields, why do we continue to question their competence and mockingly point out their minority-status?"
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:25am PT
DMT, who is "we," though? At least based on what's been publicized in Silicon Valley of late, there are still many workplaces where people are not so high-minded as you and your colleagues.

Edit: haha, oops, 'twas I who used "we" first. "Why are there still people who..." would have been better.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:27am PT
Except for the ones that can't climb at all period and don't even belong there.

Not everyone is made out to be a climber .......

Given that applies to about 85% of today's 'modern' climbers I think gender sorting them is kind of irrelevant.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:32am PT
But we are not them. Don't like being lumped.

Yeah, I suppose this is one of the biggest impediments to having a calm conversation about sexism. The "women are this..."/"men do this..." openers probably result in a fair bit of defensiveness.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Aug 11, 2017 - 09:45am PT
Yup Micro, it is weird thread with learning possibilities.

For QueenTut:
[url=https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/montana/articles/2017-08-01/woman-becomes-first-to-swim-length-of-flathead-lake-and-back"]
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 11, 2017 - 11:12am PT
I'm glad PTPP can tell us how to treat women. A dude with his track record should stay far from this discussion.


I don't place a high value on getting laid either. Goes down a good fraction every year. Early 20's caused a lot of problems in my life in pursuit of it lol.

These days it's nice to have someone I like to be around that we can have fun with together but it's not a big deal, it comes and goes.

I think some people may be projecting their insecurities.

I think Cleo hit the argument correct when she said to be careful how we label because kids will assume the rules we give them. I've mentored and coached many women, and the young ones sometimes need examples why they belong in the arena as well.

What I mean to say is, who gives a sh#t. Me being short makes me not as likely to be successful at basketball - but I CAN be successful. Even tho i "wasted" my pre teen years playing basketball it was fun - even if maybe I wasn't destined for greatness, but I could have been.

Aside from children adults should not seek approval from others to do what they want. If Kevin's beliefs challenge yours find out if you care enough to get enraged over something that doesn't affect you or laugh it off.

How many of you here posting volunteer training young women?

Thought so.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 11, 2017 - 11:22am PT
His attempts to discredit me by demanding to see my scorecard expose the level of power women yield over most men ..

..

That's, a pretty sweeping generalization, Gary ..

In your analysis of gender differences, that one instance exposes the power that women have over MOST men? But it's other people who make generalizations about gender differences, based on insufficient information?

Now that we've solved the nature/nurture question, why can't people just see the light, and be satisfied with the sex power that women wield, and not believe they're as biologically fit to climb as we are?

Women are always suffering from their weak human mind games, pareidolia, and the law of small numbers. If only they were mentally tougher and more rational like we men are, maybe they could be better climbers, like us.

Can't we just believe in the way it used to be, the natural order of the world, when men were mighty climbers, and women were mighty sex objects? It's like there's nowhere to escape from this stuff anymore!
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Aug 11, 2017 - 11:27am PT
[/With the exception of Big Ole' JOE, & that martyrdom duck,]

O M G !
10/10 things are way more fun when it's a women who's the rope gun








well?thats a lot a pussy!
YEAH, I know, a low blow
I swear it, the picture was a mistake,




COUNTERPOINT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 11, 2017 - 11:36am PT
That's a pretty sweeping generalization, Gary, and not my experience.

You must have a lot of experience with beginning climbers then.

But I don't coach many beginners.

Oh.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 11, 2017 - 11:45am PT
You sure do like to run that mouth


OP called him out in the thread title. I think it's relevant that he makes his point regardless of if you agree with it. Whose running their mouth?

I climb a lot in San Diego and appreciate what Kevin has done down here.
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 11, 2017 - 11:54am PT
None of us are reliable witnesses, and we are all afflicted by confirmation bias. If one expects to see new male climbers as clumsy apes or naturally powerful, or female climbers as terribly frightened or naturally well-balanced, then it is all too easy to look back in memory and find that only the people that fit the prior expectation come to mind...
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 11, 2017 - 01:00pm PT
To comment on this accomplishment at least requires being able to do the route on TR, with no more than 10 hangs... ok.. maybe 20...

I'm out.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Aug 11, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
None of us are reliable witnesses, and we are all afflicted by confirmation bias. If one expects to see new male climbers as clumsy apes or naturally powerful, or female climbers as terribly frightened or naturally well-balanced, then it is all too easy to look back in memory and find that only the people that fit the prior expectation come to mind...

I disagree, I'm quite infallible.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 11, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
Sometimes the bickering that rambles on this thread is like two bald guys arguing over a comb.

Hazel done good. She's a crusher.
DanaB

climber
CT
Aug 11, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
Kevin, how did the problem with your ankle turn out?
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Aug 11, 2017 - 01:42pm PT
What did the bald man say when he got a comb for Christmas?

"Thanks, I'll never part with it."
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 11, 2017 - 03:11pm PT
.. you debate like angry women ..

Well, thanks. It's something to aspire to anyway.

Theres enough BS in everyday life, climbing has always been an escape from that.

If you need to escape from the way the world is changing, go escape. What are you skeeered or something? How manly of you :-)
monolith

climber
state of being
Aug 11, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/Navy-Only-woman-in-SEAL-training-pipeline-drops-11752394.php
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 11, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
Kevin...you need to find a girldriend with green camalot hands. If you find one bring her to the Creek...I'll make sure Chappy comes and she can put the rope up for us on thin cracks. Of course, we can turn the table on baggy hands.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 04:16pm PT
Is this the thread for comments about The Wobbler?

Well if so, I'm calling "pull"!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
In order to fully understand warbler you need some street smarts.

This form is infested with stoopid book only smart people.

Way too many over educated people with no brains .....

zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 04:24pm PT


Does anyone here even read?



WBraun

climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
Kevin

I have to go to Cabrillo National Monument tomorrow from Yosemite for work.

Is it better to go on I-15 or stay on I-405?

405 thru LA is usually a nightmare?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 11, 2017 - 04:45pm PT
The internet is a wonderful thing
WBraun

climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
Thanks GDavis.

What a nightmare. I'm doomed :-)
WBraun

climber
Aug 11, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
Gimme your address to your house Kevin

email me at wenerbr at hotmail dot com
cat t.

climber
california
Aug 11, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
Feminists, you are an exception, cat, often don't want to acknowledge that men have physiological advantages in athletics because it's a tacit admission of inequity btw the sexes, but I find it silly to deny, just as it's silly to deny the advantage of being able to get two or three digits of all eight fingers into a crack as opposed to only eight tips.

1) The point I was trying to get at is that because climbing is so varied, men and women both have (different) physiological advantages while climbing. Climbing is, as we've said before, not a one-dimensional athletic endeavor. Being tall and strong isn't "cheating," and having tiny fingers is not "cheating" either. Those innate advantages--for both men and women--don't guarantee that someone will be any good, and they don't invalidate the talent and dedication that go into being a top climber.

2) I really don't think I'm an exception. All of my female friends consider themselves feminists, and all of them acknowledge that men have an athletic edge on us. I think we collectively take solace in the fact that, by insisting that we WILL keep up with our male friends on rides and hikes and skis and climbs, we are actually always pushing our personal limits harder than they are ;)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 12, 2017 - 02:45am PT
Hire equal numbers of female engineers to keep the ladies happy so they continue to use Google products, or risk the wrath of feminists and hire the best engineers to make the best product, regardless of the sex of those engineers, even if they're predominately male?

The bottom line here is if you or anyone else thinks there is a gender basis for defining 'best' in tech engineering you are as naive, biased and clueless as Damore. The obstacles women in tech face are entirely cultural and if you want to point to some gender basis for that I'd be way more inclined to look for a biological basis for the overwhelming deficiency of interpersonal and social skills among men in tech.

In the mid-80s I worked for several years as a software engineer at what was arguably the #2 hottest, large software R&D lab in the world at the time and can tell you for a fact that socially [near-] 'normal' and capable men were as rare as women. So a backdrop to all this discussion is also the fact that the industry was built on the backs of men who - while smart - often had tremendous difficulty functioning 'normally' in their own skins let alone in society in general. And catering to and managing such a cadre and making them feel 'safe' enough to be continuously productive was largely an exercise in providing insular, 'safe' environments where distracting 'differences' were minimized. And in those environments any form of difference (sexual, race, personality, age, experience, disability, etc.) could stand out and be hard for a lot of those folks to deal with.

My personal experience there was a case in point - I came from a field office in Chicago where I worked directly with Fortune 100 customers on some of their toughest technical challenges. After several years I was asked to leave the field and come back east to work in the R&D labs. I'd been asked because that world was so insular that fewer than 1% of those 'best engineers' had ever met or talked to an actual customer of the company and somewhere north of 50% of them had never worked on a released product. In fact, if you'd worked on software that was packaged into an actual product within five years of having touched it the perception was you were working far from the cutting edge and weren't one of the brightest cookies in the tin.

Those kind of perceptions meant the fact that I came from the field and didn't have a traditional compsci or uber-nerd background was taken to mean I was someone's pet project and didn't belong there among them - i.e. I was summarily dismissed at every turn. I finally got mad and it took a series of progressively more public and harsh code-beatings solving problems that had been viewed as difficult or intractable to gain any respect and even then it was viewed as some sort of fluke the first couple of times. By the second year I had earned grudging respect, but was still viewed with suspicion for not fitting in (thank god). And over time as I was given more difficult projects I found that fewer and fewer of these 'best engineers' could answer my questions - I was increasingly being referred to a mysterious 'Stan' ("oh, that's Stan-level"). I'd never even heard of Stan and when asked the people in my group only talked about him in hushed tones; only one of them had ever met him.

And sure enough, Stan was a story all his own - definitely the smartest software human I've ever met and likely one of the top 10 in the world at that time. Thing was, Stan had gatekeepers who shielded him from the likes of me. My first dozen times attempting to ask Stan a question were headed off at the pass by his posse who either answered it or scrounged up a different resource for my question. Then, one day, they couldn't and I was given entre to Stan's corporeal presence. I was taken aback - Stan, mumbling and oddly dressed, sat in an isolated cube with high walls which were lined floor-to-walltop with empty pepsi cans. And while it took a bit for Stan to shift into human-mode and stop giving me the hairy eyeball, once he did and heard my question we ended up having a great old time for several hours the end of which he answered my actual question as sort of a trivial backhand after-thought. The experience was eye-opening and my status and cred in the R&D labs changed remarkably after my apparently rare audience with 'Stan the man'.

I quit shortly thereafter vowing never to return to such an insular and oppressive environment ever again and haven't to this day.

So it ain't just women who suffer and have to fight over and over to prove their worth in google-like environments - it's anyone who doesn't come from or fit the mold of that insular world. It's way better now, but I suspect still largely unchanged way down at its core and that's what the leadership at google is attempting to address - persistent issues of insular culture and bias that are counterproductive to operating at scale.

P.S. I later found out Stan's wife dressed him every morning and drove him to and from work every day as Stan couldn't cope with most mundane, real world tasks of living in the world.

P.P.S. At lunch in the summer I'd sometime go out in the woods behind the labs and set up my tightrope where I couldn't be seen in order to blow off steam. But they were building a second lab tower next to our facility and one day the steel workers framing it up spied me and their foreman came down and offered me a job saying they were way shorthanded and could get me into the union. I almost quit the R&D job on the spot and it really was the seed that ended up making me walk away from it all a couple of months later to start consulting.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Aug 12, 2017 - 06:49am PT
Confusing... please clarify

His point is the difference is cultural not biological. Duh.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 12, 2017 - 09:39am PT
1st woman drops out of Navy SEAL training pipeline

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/the-intel/sd-me-seal-women-20170811-story.html


Thankfully John Peck hung in, despite the acid.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Aug 13, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
The jousting at windmills thread that won't die......

but my life's experiences with women in general mesh better with the scientifically backed points Damore makes, than the speculative ones you and feminist Googlers are making in this case.

Kevin, not that I expect you will bother to contemplate this, but read Zonatan Zunger's response:

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788

All of which is why the conclusions of this manifesto are precisely backwards. It’s true that women are socialized to be better at paying attention to people’s emotional needs and so on — this is something that makes them better engineers, not worse ones. It’s a skillset that I did not start out with, and have had to learn through years upon years of grueling work. (And I should add that I’m very much an introvert; if you had asked me twenty years ago if I were suited to dealing with complex interpersonal issues day-to-day, I would have looked at you like you were mad.) But I learned it because it’s the heart of the job, and because it turns out that this is where the most extraordinary challenges and worthwhile results happen.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 13, 2017 - 01:27pm PT
May the Force be with or without you, eh?






AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 16, 2017 - 05:19pm PT
Re: gender bias and the Warbler
Who appears to love the sound of his own songs, rather than use them to attract mates.

Perhaps women have simply had better things to do than fritter away years over a Peter Pan existence, an indulgence men have been able to get away with. Since men invented the jargon of grandiloquence to pat themselves on their collective backsides, and since they constructed the bulk of rating systems, perhaps women could do the same, and so bias the medium that the poor men will give up altogether, and go find some new arena in which to wax up and feel all manly.
I for one got into climbing precisely because it was a geeky, eccentric, introverted backwater outlet where jocks did not dwell. I met young women who actually climbed because they wanted to, not because they were looking for a hubby or swooned over some hunk.
Yet another old Valley troglodyte desperately seeking attention, via his pleas for relevance in a brave new world that ignores him. The fact that he finds it in this forum, says more about the ST fanboys than the contemporary world at large. We can all climb together and bury the relics. A toast to all the righteous bitches out there. Kick 'em where it hurts.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 16, 2017 - 11:39pm PT
John Hawkins? Really? Crikey dude, even being kind that's scraping the bottom of the pseudo-intellectual barrel.

And check it out, any time someone attempts to dismiss feminism with a single wave of the hand you know you're dealing with a complete and utter moron. That, and it's all the more ironic and embarrassing when it comes from a guy who makes his living as a professional victim of the plaintive right.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 17, 2017 - 08:36am PT
Suzies Winnebago Biscuits 5.7+ has 3 ascents it's harder than cobra crack
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 17, 2017 - 12:41pm PT
She makes them in her winnabago I dunno man
L

climber
Just Livin' the Dream...
Aug 17, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
And now...a little eye-candy for all you feminists reading this climbing thread:


Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Aug 17, 2017 - 01:13pm PT
Thanks, L. I'm a straight male, and that pic is, well, hot. Good lookin' dood, but think of him more than just a hunky piece of meat, please.

BAd
clode

Trad climber
portland, or
Aug 17, 2017 - 01:33pm PT
He's missing his bra/halter top! Oh my, I'm SO offended! Get over it!
L

climber
Just Livin' the Dream...
Aug 17, 2017 - 03:09pm PT
Good lookin' dood, but think of him more than just a hunky piece of meat, please.

Lol BAd! I definitely think of him as more than just a hunky piece of meat!

I mean, those bulging lats and killer smile aside, just look at the tic list he and his friend checked (in the Euro thread) in the short time they were in the Valley. Beyond impressive!

Enough to make a few of the posers here a little jealous, me thinks...
L

climber
Just Livin' the Dream...
Aug 17, 2017 - 03:49pm PT
Ooops! My bad!

I meant to type "posters", not posers. (That would've been spelled "poseur", I believe.)


Me thinks yer letting yer hoohoo do the thinkin'

What are you, 11 years old? 12? For a man that's almost 70, you talk like an adolescent.

Now if you really want to seeing some nice posing, check this out:

BigB

Trad climber
Red Rock
Sep 12, 2017 - 02:08pm PT
http://gripped.com/news/crusher-anak-verhoeven-sends-new-5-15a-france/

first female 5.15a fa
Matt's

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
nooooooo... I wanted to do a whole separate special post just for the warbler on this. :(
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 12, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
No shrinking violet, she is a natural feminist and frankly would likely cold c*#k KW for his sexist views on the female form -but she agrees with parts of his fundamental premise.

Ha. I know Mrs. Frostback, and yeah, she might agree with some of the things KW is saying, but he'd be recovering from a broken jaw.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 12, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
You'll have to ask Frostback about that. All I know is that I sure as hell would not have wanted to piss her off.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 12, 2017 - 07:13pm PT
It's not like I'm prejudiced - that I've prejudged it - it's just that women are never going to consistently outclimb men. I've got all the proof I need right here in my pants!

This never gets old does it? When you get old enough, growth learning is for younger people.
drF

Trad climber
usa
Sep 12, 2017 - 07:44pm PT
Since I separated from my wife, the only girls I hang and climb with have been @ 30, and they're kinda smokin'hot, and super smart

: D

You clearly still like to "run it out" ;-)

I'm in the same game. Can be dicey at times
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Sep 12, 2017 - 08:04pm PT
This thread needs more Warble pics. Preferably shirtless.
Come on.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 12, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
Damn...those girls just keep kicking sand in our faces. "It goes boys" was just the beginning.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Sep 12, 2017 - 08:55pm PT


sexual dimorphism
nah000

climber
now/here
Sep 12, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
but how could one harass?

when that there is a slightly californian styled, but yet still, greek god?

a greek god, with a subtle but sublime smile... a smile that makes mind reading irrelevant... because the smile screams forth to the viewer the thought of the greek god... the sole thundering thought that he thinks as he peers lovingly into his own reflection electronically displayed in the glass of the selfie phone:

now that... that is the definition of handsome...



;)
nah000

climber
now/here
Sep 12, 2017 - 09:38pm PT
TW: uppity? maybe, sometimes...

know everything? if knowing that you don't know is knowing everything? then again, maybe... :)

peace... and to all a good night...
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Sep 12, 2017 - 10:36pm PT
"Wow, warbler that picture... Only guy on the forum that can out-dewshe-bag burchey."

Well, you're forgetting about Bragman.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Sep 12, 2017 - 10:51pm PT
Dude! We were laughing our asses off at you!
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 12, 2017 - 11:01pm PT
That is not the k38 I remember. Federales rousted me with the business end of an automatic weapon
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:02am PT
Since this thread seems to now be home for some intelligent discussion, here's something I like to hear your thoughts on.

This morning, on my bike ride to work, I was stopped when the drawbridge I have to cross opened up to let a barge through. Not much to do except stand around mindlessly with all the other cyclists. Looking at them, I realized they were almost all men. By the time we were able to start riding again, there were nineteen of us, of which seventeen were men, and only two were women.

Thinking about it, I realized that was pretty normal. I've been bike commuting in Seattle for fifteen years now, and, while there are some women on two wheels, most riders are men. The proportion on the bridge -- 80:20 -- seemed about normal.

Why is that? What puts men on bikes and keeps women off them?
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:10am PT
Ghost- The glass ceiling....?
Warbler- My grandma wants your phone number.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:15am PT
Interesting Ghost....I see about the same ratio but REVERSED on Standup Paddle Boards.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:16am PT
Ghost, I used to bike nine miles each way on my commute. Did that for over four years in the mid-seventies on San Pablo in Richmond/Berkeley. ALL of the other bike commuters I saw or met were men. Not a single female rider in the bunch.

I put it down to the fact that women sweat like men do, and sweat does nothing good for clothing, make-up, and hair. Unless there's a locker room, what's a gal to do after a lengthy commute ride?

You have come up with a good darned question, but I cannot come up with another single good reason for the disparity.

WBraun

climber
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:19am PT
F--"Warbler- My grandma wants your phone number."

LOL .....
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:24am PT
n her humble opinion in cycling far to many women for whatever reasons measure themselves against the "pack" and not really hang it out there. Sure they may win a race but its a rare bird that would attack on a hill and put in distance -most of the time is a pack right to the final 2 k then turns into a sprint.

This is an interesting observation (though I don't think it indicates agreement with KW's premise, if only because of the inclusion of "for whatever reasons")

Why is that? What puts men on bikes and keeps women off them?

The following is just idle speculation, but--
I've noticed a terrible habit amongst the women I bike, climb, and do science with: we tend to apologize excessively. Opinions come framed as "I guess this is a stupid question, but [brilliant insight]." Climbing and biking abilities are massively understated with tentative qualifications. I think it comes from this fear of being seen as the "representative" of our sex, and in moments when we should be single-mindedly focused, this nasty little thought worms its way in: "if you can't do it perfectly, it's because women CAN'T do it."

This is a thought pattern that is completely destructive, of course. It's a paralyzing thought: "if you aren't the best, you aren't allowed to try." And yeah, I'm sure the thought initially arose because we exist in a male-dominated society, but ultimately it's up to an individual to break out of that holding pattern. I try to stop myself when I catch myself thinking that way (though it still happens). I try to discourage the behavior when I observe it in my female friends. But it remains hard to shake the uncomfortable feeling that, as the only woman in a group, you are somehow responsible for proving the worth of women.

EDIT Oh sh#t, I did it in my own post!! Did I really have to precede the whole thing with "oh this is just idle speculation, but--" This isn't idle speculation, this is a strong opinion about a maladaptive behavior, and y'all should consider that even though YOU are not sexist, we (we being women) have internalized a lot of other people's hostility toward women over a lifetime.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:27am PT
Grandmoms work for me!
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:41am PT
Funny, the ratio of bike commuters here in MSO-MT that I see is about even. Same in the winter. However, on the intown MTB trails I see more ladies and on the outa town MTB trails I see nobody.

I think today women are just generally getting after it/out more than in the past. This a good thing and I love my lady-friend partners in outdoor pursuits, makes for enriching conversation and interesting perspectives, at least in my experience..
c wilmot

climber
Sep 13, 2017 - 09:51am PT
Our bike lane symbols portray a male riding a bike. This was done to reinforce the patriarchal notion that riding a bike is for males only. Our male dominated society has come up with all sorts of clever ways to keep women down

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 13, 2017 - 10:47am PT
Doesn't mean shizt after they leave home and are on their own.

I had the pleasure of meeting Tami's son recently. She clearly did a fine job with his upbringing.

Warbler and frostback, am wishing you similar good fortune with your kids!
BrassNuts

Trad climber
Save your a_s, reach for the brass...
Sep 13, 2017 - 11:02am PT
Below is a real male Warbler in breeding plumage looking sharp for the ladies, no creepy selfies here.
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 13, 2017 - 11:15am PT
Why is that? What puts men on bikes and keeps women off them?

Ghost--It's not necessarily that women aren't on bikes...it's that we generally have to be more cautious about when and where we ride.

For instance, back when I lived in Santa Monica, I'd ride from Topanga Canyon up the PCH (Pacific Coast Highway) to Point Mugu and back again. It's 38 miles one way/76 RT. It was one of my favorite weekend pastimes (unless I was climbing) and I did it alone because a solitary ride along the Pacific ocean, with waves breaking and dolphins leaping, fed my soul.

Every single time I rode my bike on that highway, I was harassed by male cyclists. The group would surround me and start with the comments:

"You shouldn't be riding alone."
"You better have sunscreen on cause your top isn't covering enough of you."
"Don't you have a boyfriend to ride with you?"
"C'mon, you can ride with us--it's dangerous to ride alone."

Those were the comments directed at me.

The ones I heard as the pack rode away were always the same:

"Nice ass! I'd do her!"
"Damn, did you see the muscles on her back? I'd like to hump that filly!"
"I could make her beg, I bet."
"Now that would be a good f%k! Hahaha!"

This was on the PCH, on a Saturday or Sunday, during the day, with regular traffic buzzing by. The only "danger", as far as I could see, was from some idiot motorist not paying attention...or from these packs of cyclists.

Your commuting route sounds safe enough--if you're a man. But as a woman, it might not appear the same. Especially if darkness falls during the commute.

Speaking as an "objectified" person, I would say this might be one of the reasons you see more men than women commuting via bikes. Safety issues.


cat t.

climber
california
Sep 13, 2017 - 11:57am PT
Every single time I rode my bike on that highway, I was harassed by male cyclists.

Holy crap, L, those comments are atrocious. How recent is this? The stuff I hear around here (SF Bay) is significantly less terrifying ("I didn't expect YOU to pass me!" and boob-comments, mostly).

Here's an interesting podcast in which the men interviewed genuinely believe that women like these types of comments. The interviewer tries quite hard to convince them otherwise, quoted below:
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/603/transcript

OK. So here's a thought that I think maybe hasn't occurred to you. There's quite a lot of violence against women, right? Like, we understand that. One of the things that happens when you feel afraid as a chick, and you're just walking around and a guy slaps your ass, is you don't know if he intends it as a compliment or if he's actually really violent.

And so something that we do, something that we've learned to do, is to not reject men. One of the strategies we adopt is laugh, smile, be collegiate, be appeasing, be non-confrontational. Right? So I want to suggest to you that it's possible that a lot of the smiles and laughs that you see on the faces of the women who you slap or compliment are ways for them to get out of the situation rather than ways of thanking you.
neversummer

climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Sep 13, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 13, 2017 - 12:28pm PT
Holy sh#t, that's crazy Laura. In all my years of riding in both Vancouver and Seattle I've never overheard anyone say anything remotely like that to a woman rider.

Which doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but what you had to deal with is really nasty. Clearly, that kind of sh#t would keep a lot of women off bikes.

The daily commute is different, though. Or I think it is. It's a commute, not a training ride, or any kind of test of manhood. It's just getting to work in the morning and home again in the afternoon. Generally on well-lit streets where the safety issue is crazy drivers, not nasty males. Yes there is the occasional rider who uses it for training, and blasts along at speed, but most people are just combining a bit of exercise with the necessity of getting to and from work.

So I still don't know why it isn't close to 50/50.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 13, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
you can admit that feminists are often sexist, in a vulnerable way

Of course women are sexist. Everyone is. You know, all I'm really suggesting is that people should try to be nice to each other. It's pretty damn hard not to internalize the dominant mindset of a culture, and ours happens to be one that doesn't have appropriately high expectations of women. I don't think anyone can make it to adulthood without that attitude affecting them in some way.

If someone describes what they're experiencing, or how the dominant culture affects them, just...think about it.

The daily commute is different, though. Or I think it is.
Ghost, some men in cars are pretty nasty toward women on their bike commutes. It doesn't happen every day, but usually every couple weeks I'll get someone shouting out their window to comment on my body, or just creepily honking and shouting "aayyyyyy girl."

E deals with it by striking a convo with them and asking them questions, which, because they are often hitting VO2 max, they have a hard time gasping out in more than monosyllables.
Hahaha this is great.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Sep 13, 2017 - 01:31pm PT
Hey KW, did you really take that selfie for me?!?
Dawwwww!

You're a good sport though.. really. Most dudes wouldn't post selfies like that here.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 13, 2017 - 01:32pm PT
Kevin....I lived in Boulder on a nice quiet street. Every Sunday afternoon a peloton of about thirty riders dressed up like soda pop cans came by completely clogging up the street. I always felt like yelling..."share the road!"
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 13, 2017 - 01:40pm PT
technically K38.5



EDIT: ^^Early sixties



SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Sep 13, 2017 - 01:48pm PT

Gosh, I'm surprised. . . nobody's called him a d#@&%ebag yet.

Well, I will. . . there you go, warbler.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 13, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 13, 2017 - 06:48pm PT
GOOFY FEET?




Dean’s recollection of the plane crash in Lower Merced Pass Lake is far from what went on. I have watched his video and I have to tell you either Dean is living in a dream world or he is on the edge of his later years
-Rick
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Sep 13, 2017 - 06:59pm PT
Spicy photos of a pre-op, shirtless Bruce Jenner aside, what in the feck are we talking about, boys?

Old men lusting after young women?

2017 women kicking the rockclimbing ass of 1977 young men?

Justifying now-unacceptable attitudes?

2017 young men insulting 2017 female cyclists?

All I know is that a thread that started by quickly devolving into the usual Supertopo "You're an as#@&%e. No, you're an as#@&%e" thread somehow evolved into a fairly intelligent discussion of male/female issues.

For which we should all be thankful.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 13, 2017 - 11:42pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

 The commentaries don't necessarily reflect my own opinions one way or the other, but the controversy seems relevant to the topic at hand.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 07:37am PT
Hahaha!

I'm still floored by the shock and awe of your awesome selfie!

And yes, other factors notwithstanding, the primacy of power to weight ratio in the climbing game, (particularly in the sectors which you mentioned), would suggest that the gap will continue to tighten down.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 08:20am PT
I don't have the rhetorical chops, investment in brinksmanship, or really the interest in hanging with this crew on such a topic. But I think it's a good one, and I have read all the posts.

I will say that my wife, Lisa Goldsmith, ex-nationally ranked triathlete, ex-professional bike racer (veteran of two Tour de Feminine de France, something which most Americans don't even know exists), and current women's masters (masters = over 40 years of age) Pike's Peak Ascent (mountain running) champion, agrees with you Kevin, on nearly all your points. And her politics in general are quite progressive.
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 14, 2017 - 08:26am PT
^^^
Yeah, but does she send ground up 5.11 trad route first ascents in booty shorts that read "Pink" across the ass?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 08:27am PT
Sadly ... No, but I have!
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Sep 14, 2017 - 08:32am PT
KW has that Fabio/Jeff Bridges look going on
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 14, 2017 - 08:48am PT
Totally eKat, totally.

Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 14, 2017 - 09:03am PT
HaHa, good'n!! Yeah, actions/investments/intentions are hella more meaningful than words.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Sep 14, 2017 - 09:25am PT


Susan
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Sep 14, 2017 - 09:32am PT
I will say that my wife, Lisa Goldsmith, ex-nationally ranked triathlete, ex-professional bike racer (veteran of two Tour de Feminine de France, something which most Americans don't even know exists), and current women's masters (masters = over 40 years of age) Pike's Peak Ascent (mountain running) champion, agrees with you Kevin, on nearly all your points. And her politics in general are quite progressive.

Fantastic and powerful post.

My wife has basically the same sentiment and was an American Record holder and US National team swimmer for several years. If she was a dude most of yall would call her a misogynist.

It would be interesting to see how many high end women actually share the same view on this. Sometimes the minority has the loudest voice but isn't necessarily representative of the population on topics like these.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 14, 2017 - 10:12am PT
Well, MT ain't that big and I gotta hit that nordic skiing your way one of these days!

BTW, we ain't gettin much precip, just a lot of wind from this teaser so far. Any precip for you up there last night?
But hey, our high tomorrow will be 48 and snow level should reach down to 6k. Man, I'll take that!!
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 14, 2017 - 11:13am PT
Yup, in MSLA. Man, I need to hit that IzaakWalton for Nordic & metal edged skiing. I have heard lots of goodness about the zone....just need to go!! We were spoiled last year with about 4 months of Nordy things in town.

Coo, it is actually been a little windy, staying on the cooler side along with the doppler and DOT showing precip on the way!! xing fingers! YeeHaw! Stoked for the weekend!
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 14, 2017 - 11:44am PT
And blacks prefer lighter skin color, even among blacks. And black kids choose the lighter doll as the doll that's 'nice,' and they choose the darker doll as the doll that's 'bad.'

Just because every time we personally do the math we get the same answer, doesn't mean that it's the right answer. But it sure feels good.

150 years after slavery ended, and median white wealth is still 13 times median black wealth. See! Whites are just better at creating wealth than blacks are, and they always will be. What's the big deal - it's just science. Those PC folks who don't believe it are just fascists.
Robb

Social climber
Aloft on the wings of grace
Sep 14, 2017 - 11:48am PT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 14, 2017 - 11:54am PT

cat t.

climber
california
Sep 14, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
I will say that my wife, Lisa Goldsmith, ex-nationally ranked triathlete, ex-professional bike racer (veteran of two Tour de Feminine de France, something which most Americans don't even know exists), and current women's masters (masters = over 40 years of age) Pike's Peak Ascent (mountain running) champion, agrees with you Kevin, on nearly all your points. And her politics in general are quite progressive.

I'm curious: for those of you with athletic, powerful wives who apparently agree with Kevin, did they read through his many posts about women and decide they agree (in other threads, too, such as the time he derailed a missing person thread with snide comments about how women can't navigate), or did they agree with your summary of his points? Because if the summary were phrased: "Kevin asserts that the average woman in our society is not as aggressive in her pursuit of sport as the average man," then there's nothing really to disagree with.

This is not, and has never been, a question of WHAT the situation is. It's a question of why, and whether the way we currently act is maximally empowering to all people. Kevin's posts ooze with the sentiment that both men and women should have lower expectations for women. He may respond with "quote me! quote me! I never said that!" but we all know that's what his words imply. It is hardly irrational or illogical for a human to interpret the tone of another person's words--if someone says "I love raw potatoes" while gagging and rolling their eyes, you know that indeed, they do not love raw potatoes.

I think the debate about female ability in sport is a diversion. Ultimately it doesn't matter--you should treat people with respect, and constant comments about how a subset of humans are "inherently incapable of top performance" are not mere observations, they are designed to undermine another person's confidence, independence, and enjoyment of the activity at hand.
c wilmot

climber
Sep 14, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
constant comments about how a subset of humans are "inherently incapable of top performance" are not mere observations, they are designed to undermine another person's confidence, independence, and enjoyment of the activity at hand.

This could be applied to the constant criticism against white men- the current whipping post in our society

Unfortuently its human nature to act in this manner. The herd always needs an enemy
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 14, 2017 - 12:14pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 14, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
This could be applied to the constant criticism against white men- the current whipping post in our society

It could indeed, but mutual mistreatment resolves nothing. Yeah, insisting that white men "cannot understand" the perspective of women or minorities is bullsh#t. Of course they can have opinions, and they can try to understand other people, and we're just running in pointless circles if their attempts are always met with disdain. But--what is accomplished by saying, "yes, what we're doing is unjust, but unjust things are also done to me?"
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 14, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
I think the debate about female ability in sport is a diversion. Ultimately it doesn't matter--you should treat people with respect, and constant comments about how a subset of humans are "inherently incapable of top performance" are not mere observations, they are designed to undermine another person's confidence, independence, and enjoyment of the activity at hand.

This.

Small minds will stall out on Diversion dr.; active minds continue on to other avenues.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 12:39pm PT
Go Cat go!

Certainly Kevin makes himself a target, but he's also extremely fluid, practical, and cogent. This is not to say I would sign off on exactly everything he says, to be sure.

You draw some important distinctions. And yes, my wife is only responding to the most basic reflections of his positions which I've offered up on the topic at large. There is no way I read all of Kevin's stuff (though I have in this particular thread, because I am loathe to post anything if I haven't done so), and Lisa wouldn't spend 3 min. on Supertopo trying to parse all of this.

You keep going with it, and I'll keep reading, until the whole thing implodes in a morass of posturing and convoluted and interlinked arguments, as things often do in this sort of arena, though not from you per se.

Watching Kevin take fire from six different sides is amusing as hell. And there's no way I could hold a consistent thought stream trying to handle the deluge of opinions that show up in these pages.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 14, 2017 - 12:57pm PT
eKat, I'm not sure why you think we're at odds. At the heart of my point is the hope that more people will raise their daughters like you got raised.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Sep 14, 2017 - 01:07pm PT
Take away Ondra and Sharma (whose accomplishments in sport climbing continue to be out of everyone else's league) and the hardest female sends are only a letter grade less than the hardest male sends. Take away Nalle's V17 and the hardest female send in bouldering is only one V-grade less than what men have done. That's not much of a difference considering a much lower level of participation in the sport. I really don't see any innate reason why some women shouldn't be able to reach the same levels of difficulty in these disciplines as men, especially if they have a larger participation in that aspect of the sport (competing to get the hardest "sends").
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 14, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
I think too many people spend too much time yammerin' about stuff like this. It doesn't do anybody any good.
Probably true, I just keep hoping it will make just one person stop and think, "huh, maybe I should think about the offhanded comments I didn't realize my kids might take to heart."
uncrushed

Trad climber
North Vancouver
Sep 14, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
cat t. with the perfect summary.

warbler, some light reading for you:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23331151-200-unmaking-the-myths-of-our-gendered-minds/
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 02:06pm PT
This just in:

The science behind why stinky socks bug women more than men.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/30/well/family/why-stinky-socks-may-bother-women-more-than-men.html?emc=edit_nn_20170914&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=77568457&te=1

.................................

Hey Cat,

I often notice in conversation with women, that sometimes, when I offer a generality about differences between men and women, say, in pursuit of seeking the proper line of action in a situation where choices abound, a great percentage of the time, when the generality involves the difference between how men and women approach certain kinds of problem solving, approaches which I have observed over a broad spectrum, I get kick back. And sometimes these differences of approach are ones which were not brought up by me in the conversation, but were actually tabled by the woman in some way, and I'm merely following that line of thinking. In these situations I see kick back like I'm being overly presumptive or disingenuous.

Forgive me for not supplying discrete examples.

And the loop within a loop: now I've just made a generality … About women's responses to making generalities. So hold the line for a moment, please.

Surely we can base generalities on life experience, it's something we do all of the time, as an aspect of developing our judgment skills, and of course we need to be careful that we are not engaging in inductive reasoning, in using too broad a brush, I get that. But following trends are a basic predicate of decision-making, no?

My offhand theory says that this is the case (the kickback) because men too often use, or have used in some overarching cultural sense, these generalities to control women. Or at least there's been, in the case of women who don't like these, or seemingly any, generalities one bit, a history of experiencing that in their case. But it is something I find consistent, not with all women, but it's like a landmine that crops up every now and then in casual conversation. And I usually don't get it in conversation with men friends. It seems to be a uniquely (but not necessarily exclusive) male-female rubbing point.

Clearly the idea is to avoid laziness, especially when appreciating a person's perspective or experience, and to try to approach every person and every experience with the freshness and regard for the uniqueness of the person, place, thing, or occurrence. But I find it often gets tighter than it seems it ought to, when expressing things in this way, to women. Surely there are valid trends and valid generalities that assist us in understanding or discussing things, no?

Am I onto something here? Am I being completely naïve? Isn't this in fact much of what this thread is about?

Cheers,
Roy
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Sep 14, 2017 - 02:14pm PT
If you wanna make a valid point, cat, you shouldn't have to resort to emotionally exagerrated


Your turn of phrases are so revealing.

Mansplaining at its finest.
"do it this way Cat and then maybe I'll listen". .
. Clear as day subtext of your meaning.

Susan


cat t.

climber
california
Sep 14, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
Hey Roy!

And there's no way I could hold a consistent thought stream trying to handle the deluge of opinions that show up in these pages.

It always gets wild/incomprehensible after a few pages, ha! I mostly missed the whole middle of this thread, thank goodness.

But I find it often gets tighter than it seems it ought to, when expressing things in this way, to women. Surely there are valid trends and valid generalities that assist us in understanding or discussing things, no?

Am I onto something here? Am I being completely naïve? Isn't this in fact much of what this thread is about?

As you mentioned, it's hard to answer precisely without concrete examples, but I think what you wrote ("My offhand theory says that this is the case (the kickback) because men too often use, or have used in some overarching cultural sense, these generalities to control women.") does hit the mark pretty well. I think maybe lot of women are expecting these questions to be veiled insults, not real questions?

I'm not sure if this will answer your question, but here's a pretty silly example:
I know a number of women (myself included) who get teary-eyed when they are talking in a super animated way. It is just a slightly-unexpected physiological reaction to excitement, and it happens in response to positive things as well as negative ones. Maybe we're forgetting to blink; maybe our faces got too hot; I certainly do not consider it "crying" and I pray no one notices. If a guy simply tried to inquire "why do women cry so much?" it would be easy to assume condescension where none was meant, because of the history of using phrasing like "women are so hormonal/crazy/emotional" in an attempt to quash the validity of women's opinions. Such a question sounds like mockery, not like a real inquiry. In this example, perhaps a better question would be, "Do you think there are gender differences in how emotions affect physical state? Is it socialized? Or is there just huge individual variation?"
uncrushed

Trad climber
North Vancouver
Sep 14, 2017 - 03:07pm PT
cool story bro.

Reminds of the time a couple of posts later some dude said.

>>>
I've observed other women having very little sense of direction consistently in my travels, markedly more so than males, to the point I'm surprised when I meet one that is well oriented in the wild.
<<<
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
Thanks, Kev, Cat for your responses.

It's coming back to me. A trigger for some women, in some conversations, are generalities, categorization, and labeling. The latter being a hot button for sure, especially when talking about people and behavior. I think the nerve that gets pricked … runs directly to the war worn cultural nerve center known as the objectification of women. And of course for women this is much more an issue than for men. Maybe it's just patently obvious that labeling is an often used tactic when leveraging the stratagem of object relations. And throughout our cultural history, that has been a one-way flow, from men to women and rarely the other way around.

And even when it is turned around, I think Kevin is right, I don't think guys care. Call me hot, a babe, or a hunk, it's just not going to hurt. No matter the context.

I suspect that with more and more women managing technical fields and reaching the upper levels of politics, the more this will level out, at least for them, but slowly it should improve for women of all vocational stripes.

Generalities, again, but Cat, as I recall your work heavily leverages statistical analysis. Is a woman in your field, or say in upper management, or medicine, fields where compartmentalized thinking, categorization, and very mechanically ordered worldviews are routinely engaged, are these women perhaps more likely to have thicker skins in terms of their intake of a man's reliance upon generalities, categorization, and labeling when dealing with people and decision-making?

Perhaps that's rhetorical. It seems anytime those three modalities arise in gender relations, a man best be careful what he is saying and ought to tread with care as he is composing his analysis. Let's go to the Serena Williams/John McEnroe dustup.

If Serena says, to paraphrase, "Oh gosh, for sure Murray would take me down in straight sets of 6-0", then she's just acknowledging the biological differences. And importantly it is she that makes the statement. But when McEnroe offers, "Yes, and she wouldn't rise any higher than a ranking of 700", then Serena bristles, and women at large expect him to offer an apology, and she tells him to stick to facts. At this point he is treading too far into the waters of object relations and most importantly, control, by putting her up to too much of a yardstick, in essence, putting a lid on her and keeping her down by objectifying her with that number.

Just thinking aloud here.

......................

And Cat, you probably should read the central portion of this thread, if for nothing else, just to see how darn complicated and multidirectional this thing got. I'm talking entertainment value here!

... I'm sure they'll be back, armed and ready for battle, before long!
uncrushed

Trad climber
North Vancouver
Sep 14, 2017 - 04:25pm PT
Emotional - I'm human... so to some degree? but not especially.
You're quick to try and push that though...

Seeing someone in a SAR thread use it to push their worldview, trying to it dress up with simplistic interpretations of specific, narrow studies, to imply someone who is missing for unknown reasons brought it on themselves... makes me want to join the conversation. That's it.

Anyway thanks for thanks for your amazing insights Warbler
I'll just sit here scratching my balls marvelling at your perceptiveness.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 14, 2017 - 04:28pm PT
And even when it is turned around, I think Kevin is right, I don't think guys care. Call me hot, a babe, or a hunk, it's just not going to hurt. No matter the context.

It's quite easy to think of a context in which guys get quite riled up by these generalizations, actually--when they're told of the existence of "male privilege," or told that their phrasing of choice is sexist. Generally (hah!) men go quite wild when they hear these generalizations.

The label/generalization could be bothersome for two reasons, then, (1) the generalized quality is negative, and the individual feels their behavior does not match that of the group, or (2) the generalized quality is described as negative, but the individual disagrees and thinks the quality in question is a positive one.

edit:
Also, Roy, to elaborate a little further on the question of labels/generalizations:

I think I've mentioned this before in one of these threads (maybe even talking to you??), but one thing I find troublesome is when there's a false dichotomy set up between things like emotion/logic or sensitivity/stability. "Sensitive" and "emotional" are so often used to demean, and a woman might react negatively to their use for this reason. A human can be rational and logical and also feel deeply.

If somebody you love hasn't told you what a dipshit you are lately, you're probably thumbing your own butthole.
The truest of poetry, man
uncrushed

Trad climber
North Vancouver
Sep 14, 2017 - 04:37pm PT
Wow..." scratching my balls" wasn't clear enough for you? I'm male.


And projection? jeez dude just re-read your posts if you want to see some projection.
+5 troll points

The reason you probably don't get answers is that people want you to argue their points rather than for you to try start making points about their imagined emotional state, or whatever other delusion you come up with about a poster...

cat t.

climber
california
Sep 14, 2017 - 05:10pm PT
Thanks for your candor though, cat, in admitting you do it just to f*#k with guys for your amusement.
Whoa, not at all. I am embarrassingly earnest; if I say I think a comment is sexist, it's because I hope that the person who said it is NOT sexist and they didn't realize that their words could cause offense.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 14, 2017 - 05:26pm PT
Is sexism in the mind of the receiver truly sexism if being sexist honestly isn't the intent of the accused?

The question is simpler than that. If a speaker's words are consistently misunderstood, should they not adjust their choice of words to communicate more effectively?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
Cat said:
edit:
Also, Roy, to elaborate a little further on the question of labels/generalizations:

I think I've mentioned this before in one of these threads (maybe even talking to you??), but one thing I find troublesome is when there's a false dichotomy set up between things like emotion/logic or sensitivity/stability. "Sensitive" and "emotional" are so often used to demean, and a woman might react negatively to their use for this reason. A human can be rational and logical and also feel deeply.


Yes, Cat, I remember the exact conversation!

Here was my response:

Jan 23, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
No, they, the capacity for reason and the capacity for emotion, are not, or not necessarily, inversely related. That would just be too much irony for one race to handle.

I think that these kinds of issues can hinge on a synthesis of the two, namely emotional intelligence. It's what keeps relationship and social interaction on the rails.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2932616&msg=2935128#msg2935128

.......................

So just up thread, did you review my analysis of the Serena/McEnroe details? I think I probably have that about right.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Sep 14, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
hardest mixed route in USA - done by female
http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-news/lucie-hrozova-establishes-hardest-mixed-climb-in-u-s?
DanaB

climber
CT
Sep 14, 2017 - 06:34pm PT
Coincidence. Working on a freelance piece today about substance abuse disorders - we used to call them addictions. I'm not qualified to talk about the subject, but it seems to be very different thing for men and women.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
I'd like to read that, Dana.
Toss us a link when you get it finished?
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 14, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
Haha, Roy, awesome; I just didn't look far enough back to find that post!

I suspect that with more and more women managing technical fields and reaching the upper levels of politics, the more this will level out, at least for them, but slowly it should improve for women of all vocational stripes.

Generalities, again, but Cat, as I recall your work heavily leverages statistical analysis. Is a woman in your field, or say in upper management, or medicine, fields where compartmentalized thinking, categorization, and very mechanically ordered worldviews are routinely engaged, are these women perhaps more likely to have thicker skins in terms of their intake of a man's reliance upon generalities, categorization, and labeling when dealing with people and decision-making?

Yes, I'm in cell biology/neuroscience. The gender-balance is pretty all right in the life sciences. I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, but I don't think that women who chose technical careers are inherently more thick-skinned or comfortable with loose generalizations, but rather that when women work in an environment where their opinions are respected, they are less likely to expect these sorts of generalizations are intended as insults (because in that environment, they really aren't). Kind of rambling here, but basically if you have an environment where men and women are sharing ideas equally, then I think everyone gets less defensive.

If Serena says, to paraphrase, "Oh gosh, for sure Murray would take me down in straight sets of 6-0", then she's just acknowledging the biological differences. And importantly it is she that makes the statement. But when McEnroe offers, "Yes, and she wouldn't rise any higher than a ranking of 700", then Serena bristles, and women at large expect him to offer an apology, and she tells him to stick to facts. At this point he is treading too far into the waters of object relations and most importantly, control, by putting her up to too much of a yardstick, in essence, putting a lid on her and keeping her down by objectifying her with that number.

I think this particular episode was bothersome because it makes it seem like the accomplishments of an amazing woman cannot be taken at face value--like there will always be this qualification tacked on. To me it came across as a sort of pointless one-upmanship. Like, if someone put up some rad 5.14d route, it would be bizarre to go on a rant about how it's actually not impressive at all because harder routes have been climbed. It's just so unnecessary.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 07:34pm PT
For Lisa, taking Serena at face value includes McEnroe's evaluation, most of which Serena made herself.

She doesn't really see his remarks as a cut down, just a reality. She knows how women generally stack up against men in various sports. I mean, she's a sports junkie, we follow most sports. Her claim to fame is she hasn't had more than two weeks off of training since soccer in 4th grade. Not that I don't get your perspective. Namely the "yes, but …" sort of rebuttal to a woman's sporting achievement.

But, for example, often, when she wins a race, and an uninformed person hears of this, say the guy that ran the bed and breakfast where we stayed when she recently won the Women's Masters trophy at the Pike's Peak ascent, she will just say: "I won the Masters division". And then because he's a neophyte, he'll be surprised: "for the whole event?"

To which she will casually respond, "No, of course not. For the women's category". She thinks it's just understood that women don't compete at men's levels at most sporting events. The clarification doesn't bother her, to the contrary, she thinks people should know better than to expect anything otherwise.

I have to say though, I was stoked when she beat Christian Griffith at his own hill climb event on Mount Sanitas here in Boulder!

......................................

BTW, Cat, is this you?
Jeebus, what a cutie. Er, um … I mean, awesome smile for starters!

Not flirting or anything, just saying. Always nice to put a face to a name so to speak. Happy to take it down if it's inappropriate.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, but I don't think that women who chose technical careers are inherently more thick-skinned or comfortable with loose generalizations, but rather that when women work in an environment where their opinions are respected, they are less likely to expect these sorts of generalizations are intended as insults (because in that environment, they really aren't).
No, you understood me, Cat. This is pretty much what I would expect. But not necessarily what I always encounter. Some women friends I have tend to take things, generalizations, as some sort of quasi-intentional insult. Like they are jumpy about it.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 14, 2017 - 09:03pm PT
Oh yikes; that took me by surprise. That's Maria, one of my best friends, who died a year ago this Sunday.

The other woman is me. This is from some very pleasant day when we looped around cathedral to unicorn.

This is me, a couple weeks ago, after taking my SO up conness, trying to relearn how to love climbing. Because I'm quite an emotional person, actually, and it's been hard to climb this past year.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 09:17pm PT
Okay, still total Cutie, fab smile, bright eyes, but without close friend ... now gone, Bummer.
Looking at the other photos of some terrific Sierra targets. Fabulous!

Mt Goode, Pigeon Spire (Bugs), and etc. love it! You rock, as they say.

And this one totally cracks me up, CAT ears and all:


How did you lose Maria? If I might ask. Climbing? If so, that's more than rough ... Devastating no matter how it happens, and so young...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 09:23pm PT
Have been parsing the Serena thing more closely with Lisa over the past half hour. Not that simple actually. Though she did agree with my analysis that putting a number or a metric to Serena's standing, one which is only conjecture, isn't so tactful.

Training (3-2-1 mile repeats at 14K) on Pike's Peak, Lisa still kicking ass and taking names at age 52!



Cover girl, 10 years ago:

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 14, 2017 - 09:58pm PT
Roy, this was the accident involving Maria :-(

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2876672&tn=0&mr=0
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 10:02pm PT
So, taking my wife Lisa's perspective a little further.

She thinks it should be obvious to most, but understands it's not the case for all, that men and women don't compete at the same level. And just the same, Kevin, to your ageism point, when she wins a race in her age group, she often has to correct that fact, and she certainly doesn't see it as any sort of slight, and in fact, like you, wants obbjective reality to be correctly portrayed.

If she gets second place at a marathon in the Masters, that's way different than second place in women's overall, and she makes sure that that is noted.

First-place Masters women at Pikes Peak, 13+ miles and 7800+ vertical feet, in 3 hours 11 minutes, nets her 11th place overall with the women. She wants that known.
She gets your point that McEnroe just pulled that number in an offhand way, and doesn't think he should be excoriated for it.

So I check her on rockclimbing. There is no handicap for age or gender. Men and women climb the same climbs with the same ratings. She says she strives to take ego out of it. If someone posits that men and women are hitting the same marks in climbing, and notes that a woman just recently hit the 5.15a benchmark and you correct that, noting that Sharma hit that some decade or two back, she thinks that's fine. So, speaking objectively about records and about comparing men and women, she's backing you up, Kevin. As long as it's not done to belittle, so perhaps to Cat 's point, tone matters.

The reason I trot out Lisa's opinions is because she's a woman who competes. So to me, that's a stronger perspective to offer here on this topic. I'm just some guy with an opinion and I don't necessarily care to defend my opinions, because I tend to recognize that they change as I take in new information, and I'm not particularly argumentative. I'm into collusive experiences/engagements and understanding the nuances and the nature of our connections and our strivings.

Frankly, I just want to go climb Goddamn rocks! In the mountains, preferably. (pardon my French, but sometimes it's the right language, pour moi).
But I also dig penetrating analysis. Especially if it helps people to get along.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 14, 2017 - 10:26pm PT
Kunlun said:
Roy, this was the accident involving Maria :-(

Well, I walked ass backwards into that one, didn't I. My sincere condolences, Cat.

This elegant & eloquent photograph is just too many kinds of poetry. Brings tears to my eyes.

Maria ...


Photo: RP3


PhD med student studying bacteriophage. Crap. Loved the mountains and was competent and artful in her movement within them. I don't know if it helps, Cat, but you know, I'm 57. I've had my fun. Plenty. If I could trade places with her for you, I would do it. I mean that.
nah000

climber
now/here
Sep 15, 2017 - 12:23am PT
TW wrote: Is it possible that the words were actually not sexist along with the person, but you took offense because you read sexism into them, like your bro uncrushed does?

no. [as long as we are not speaking in generalities, but are rather speaking specifically about some of your words on this board, TW.]

as you and some of your defenders seem not to understand, the following, or something similar, is the generally/collectively held definition of sexism: prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

as a bunch of people seem to view your statements through either rose coloured glasses and/or with a selective memory here’s a little bit of copy/pasta just from prior statements… ie. i’m assuming there is more, and so i would hope that those reporting the supposedly TW agreeing thoughts of their female significant others will make sure that they read verbatim some of the following TW quotes and then report back so we can make sure that we are getting a full and honest telling of their significant others, in response to TW, opinions:

I love climbing with women, not because they climb as hard as men, but because they're a different kind of fun to be out with - less competitive, generally more appreciative and enthusiastic about natural beauty, and dare I say it - more naturally beautiful to watch making the moves.

Women should, and do, revel in the fact that they don't do the stupid, dangerous sh#t men do.

And women have strengths that men will never have - they're just not as obvious. Mens' strengths are mostly overt, females' - not so much.

If these feminist women would accept their biological limitations in athletics like most of their sisters do, their enjoyment of the activity, and their confidence level wouldn't be tainted by the fact they'll never consistently outdo the best men.



because let’s be clear, while the greater cultural conversation [as Tarbuster has pointed out] may involve some radicals who deny there are average differences between the sexes, despite TW’s best efforts to control the words of those who are debating with him, that has not been the issue debated by anybody i’ve seen on this board. if i’m wrong please copy/pasta where someone on this board has denied any of the following:

a. healthy average adult males have a literal order of magnitude higher amount of testosterone [one reference i just looked at put 19+ males at 240-950 ng/dL of testosterone and 19+ females at 20-75 ng/dL] flowing in their blood stream.
b. testosterone, as anyone paying any attention to professional sports and the questions of how to or not to deal with synthetic steroids must know, does among other things enhance muscle growth.
c. ergo [and has historically been the case], those sports and endeavours having a large pool of persuants and highly dependent on pure strength, are and will in all likelihood continue to have at the most elite levels, males to one degree or another outperforming females. this is true in everything from power lifting to tennis. climbing is somewhat more arguable due to the strength to weight issue, but historically it is true that males have almost always led the charge and there is reason to believe that this is quite likely due not just to cultural constructs, but is also in part due to foundational differences between the sexes.

ie. if your/TW’s intent is to debate the third wave feminazis, the heforshes and whatever other derogatory term you’ve got for those that debate with you, who believe that there are no average sex differences, you should find another board or bar where people are actually making those arguments.

at least me, myself, and i, am disagreeing with your category based statements and sentiments.

not, your when cornered, factually stated and innocuous truths that at the most elite levels of strength based competition, males as a rule outperform females.



as an aside and to tie up a loose end: TW, you should also be honest in your accusations. you’ve said a couple times that i’ve used ad hominem attacks against you, when the only thing i can see that i’ve done remotely close to an ad hominem, was to call you a woman... except the context was my using a reductio ad absurdum logical approach to your own verbiage: [1. men climb harder than women + 2. there are women who climb harder than The Warbler = 3. The Warbler must be a woman]. in general i’ve attempted to give you cogent arguments in response to your arguments and don’t believe i have attacked you as you claim… [i can however be snarky... :) ]



now… while i appreciate your [TW’s] willingness to post a selfie and open yourself [himself] up to a good ole fashion and at least in my case, intended in good humour roasting [i truly do think you are in the greek god territory :) ]… some of this ain’t funny.

that’s because conscious and not so conscious sexism [stereotyped and/or category based thinking] is, imo, at the root of a society where the following is true:

 every major and minor city has to have women’s shelters whose locations are often secret, and whose entrances are often protected with bullet proof glass and bollards. [and so that we are clear, there are also sometimes men’s shelters… afaik, they are generally not nearly as needed nor as used]
 even if the numbers are to some degree exaggerated by methodological issues [and i don’t disagree that there are sometimes methodological issues with some of the numbers generally bandied about] still far too many women are raped and sexually and physically abused during their lifetime [also to be clear, far too many males are as well… but the numbers no matter how you count them, are not equal when it comes to in general sexual and physical violence]

now i get that the above is heavy and might seem out of place and i get a bunch of you probably know TW in real life and know that he’s a good guy. so that we keep this conversation in context, i have no doubt that i’d be happy to share a beer with him. as we both build shIte for at least some of our livings, we’d probably have much to discuss. and to throw a bone i’d even agree with him, that females, as a general rule and for physiological average reasons, will never make up even anywhere close to 50% of the brute force based trades [say roofing, cribbing, framing, etc.]

that doesn’t change the danger in the words that he sometimes uses, no matter how benign he tries to make them when he gets cornered.

because regardless of whether that is his intent or not, his words are, at times, words of control. they, intentionally or not, define what women [and men], as categories are and what they are and are not capable of.



to give one very small example, here’s the problem:

purely by the numbers, margo hayes [a female] redpoint sport climbs equally well and in the vast majority of cases far better than, approximately 3.7 billion [that’s 3 700 000 000] males.

also purely by the numbers, there are approximately one to two dozen [ie. 12-24] males who have redpoint sport climbed a letter grade harder than margo hayes [a female]. and exactly two [2] males that have redpoint sport climbed two or more letter grades harder.

but by TW’s logic this can, until he is cornered for a second, be summed:

men redpoint sport climb harder than women.

[not the average man climbs harder than the average woman, or even the most elite men currently climb slightly harder than the most elite women, but rather simply men climb harder than women]



do some of you seriously not see the insidious problem with verbiage like the above?

and how it is the definition of sexism in its intentional or unintentional stereotyping and categorization?

and most importantly, how it underpins and contributes to a societal foundation of constraints put on female potential?




because for those of you dismissing this as pc fascism…

first, my assumption is that you are not using fascism with any kind of dictionary like definition or historical accuracy, but are rather just using it pejoratively as a synonym for “control”.

assuming the above is correct, let’s break this down.

please identify who on this board is advocating for control?

i know i’m not, and i haven’t seen anybody on this board advocate for it either. i personally believe that letting a little sunshine onto even some potential darkness is only possible if we let people speak honestly and openly. even if they are sometimes hurtful and/or mistaken in their words…

how is this fascism?

hint: it’s not. [sorry i had to allow myself one bit o’ snark]




finally, thanks for taking the time to read this tome. i’ll leave with one more TW question: Is sexism in the mind of the receiver truly sexism if being sexist honestly isn't the intent of the accused?

short answer: yes.

longer answer: it’s almost requisite. a racist, rarely believes they are racist, and doesn’t in general “intend” to be racist. they are just trying to communicate “facts”. and the problem isn’t even that their facts are even necessarily mistaken. the issue most often is how they employ them.

and so they say true things like:

in 2009, the median weekly wage for african americans was about 65% of white workers.

and then follow them up with the not so true in implication:

they should just accept who they are.



wait a second… where have i heard words like that around here?



seriously: peace.

[and sorry about your friend cat t... as tarbusier alludes to, given the context, that picture of her jumping into the lake is absolutely hauntingly beautiful]
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 15, 2017 - 09:13am PT
Thanks eKat, Roy, frostback. This past year I've felt more like an angrily self-indulgent grief-tornado than a human at times. I had lost (young) family and not-super-close friends before, and thought I understood sadness, but I guess nothing really prepares you for the chasm that opens up when you lose someone with whom you'd mutually told every silly detail about your life.

Maria was a very driven and competitive person, and one of my favorite thing about her was that, when our perspectives differed (as they often did) we'd get into hours-long, probing conversations trying to understand each other, which usually ended in what we thought were deep revelations about ourselves and human nature. :)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 15, 2017 - 10:52am PT
I read Nah000's tome also, of course, as I read all of this stuff once I get involved.

Just had an in-depth conversation with Lynnie (Hill) concerning the topic at hand. I'll see if I can put something together that accurately reflects her perspectives.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 15, 2017 - 11:27am PT
I agree, nah000, your tome was great. Thanks for taking the time to write that so cogently!

They open up tiny new compartments where they can be
stored and dealt with accordingly. People who suffer no
such losses don't have those slots. It's as though the
pain and agony of death chisels away at our grey matter -
creating everlasting homes for themselves.
eKat, thanks for this. I like the way you framed it.

Roy, I was in the middle of writing a response to what you talked about with Lisa, but I've got to go hang flyers for a class I'm teaching--will say more later!
WBraun

climber
Sep 15, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
kingtut

Women do not wear jockstraps ....

Also, women have a different consciousness then men both due to biological and another that they do not feel they need to lead in general.

They lead when the men fall apart.

Their natural inclination is to follow.

But when then men become pussies they start to lead.

Most of the men leaders in the world are st00pid pussies now.

Just see how st000pid pussies like Kim wrong-un are who've never fought yet threatens everyone.

All it takes is one guy to come up to this clown and clock him .....
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 15, 2017 - 01:51pm PT
She's too busy to come onto Supertopo.

I've read her book. Between the two of us, it didn't come up that there was a short passage in the book suitable for something like this thread.

Warbler mentioned it might be interesting to hear her take, so I asked her about it. I took some notes.

My point was, if I'm going to forward along the thoughts that she is offering for you to read, I want to get it right. She'll proof it for me.

But thanks for your concern!

vvv [edit]: [Nice chatting with you too, Jeb. Get stuffed.]
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 15, 2017 - 08:57pm PT

I think that I just read that consciousness is a (partial at least) function of biology!

Fiction, musta been!

Mikey and Wiki sez, biology is a function of consciousness(and not partially but spontaneously)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 15, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
I know, right? See how I am?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 15, 2017 - 09:23pm PT
^^^ so are blaming it on biology or consciousness🤠

Edit; or maybe Tarbuster?? but that would definitely strike a vote for consciousness 😌
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 15, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
And as I look at my notes, and ponder the way ahead, I'm starting to see Jeb may have been onto something.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 15, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
I think the danger is not of accidental condescension but rather of mangling the point (or more specifically, losing tone and context) through a game of telephone?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 15, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
Christ,

Got arthritis in my thumbs now, and keeping Lisa's feet flush with foot rubs has gone down stream.

Plus, we've got voles in the backyard too, and I need to go pinch some rocks between my bird and index finger, and do some plugging.

Maybe I'll just scan the chicken scratch from my tête-à-tête with the anointed one, and flee the building???
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 15, 2017 - 10:08pm PT
Okay, how 'bout a little transparent stalling?

Ahem. You know, Supergirl, um I mean The Bunny, Lisa, the woman that is 9/10 of what I am these days ... She and I did take a good look at those McEnroe YouTube files and reviewed my broadcast of her position on these things.

Now more than ever, she's thinking McEnroe just got set up. She done gave the double thumbs up to everything I said she said, and says Warbler is pretty well spot on.

And she thought Maria's exit portrait was one of the most touching thinks she'd ever seen.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 15, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
I'll be honest, I know sh#t all about tennis, but when I actually read McEnroe's interview transcript, it sounded like a silly publicity stunt/headline-creation. I imagine if it hadn't been hyped all over Twitter and over-reported, no one would have cared what he said.

So I check her on rockclimbing. There is no handicap for age or gender. Men and women climb the same climbs with the same ratings. She says she strives to take ego out of it. If someone posits that men and women are hitting the same marks in climbing, and notes that a woman just recently hit the 5.15a benchmark and you correct that, noting that Sharma hit that some decade or two back, she thinks that's fine. So, speaking objectively about records and about comparing men and women, she's backing you up, Kevin. As long as it's not done to belittle, so perhaps to Cat 's point, tone matters.

I think the point, as so nicely highlighted by nah000, is that Kevin's tone is the sticking point of the whole debate.
nah000 said:
because let’s be clear, while the greater cultural conversation [as Tarbuster has pointed out] may involve some radicals who deny there are average differences between the sexes, despite TW’s best efforts to control the words of those who are debating with him, that has not been the issue debated by anybody i’ve seen on this board.
and:
that doesn’t change the danger in the words that he sometimes uses, no matter how benign he tries to make them when he gets cornered.

because regardless of whether that is his intent or not, his words are, at times, words of control. they, intentionally or not, define what women [and men], as categories are and what they are and are not capable of.

It is not truly a discussion of "performance of top female athletes." If that were the conversation, we'd be making very different points, I think. For example, we'd acknowledge that the gender gap is narrower in climbing than other sports, and inquire why. We might discuss the fact that even in an era when women were actively prevented from working, owning property, or traveling independently, there were still women who became groundbreaking mountaineers, and think about how the attractions of mountains are equally compelling to humans of many athletic abilities. We might even discuss potential interesting differences in the flow of movement by male and female climbers who've done La Rambla. Maybe there are truly interesting observations to be made about how men and women move, and why men and women are both so intensely attracted to the wild of mountains, perhaps for both different and overlapping reasons.

These are not the questions that have been discussed, not really. The questions and answers posed by certain posters in this thread have truly been, as nah000 said, purely words of control.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 15, 2017 - 10:20pm PT
^^^

Lynn did touch on some of the above, Cat.

But you nailed some good stuff, independent of anything we discussed.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 15, 2017 - 10:40pm PT
I'm going to go lay down soon. Get up at the Magic hour, do a little Tonglen, try my hand at some of that Sufic in-breath out-breath reversal practice, maybe toss in some alternate nostril breathing for good measure, then dictate my notes into a Word doc, get down to business … then forward the spruced-up tract to Lynn, and watch some Wimbledon reruns mixed in with some more concerted grinding through David Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest (that’s Kennedy, McNamara, and Johnson, the press, and all the generals repeating the French mistakes in Vietnam, after having cleaned out all of the China experts, while tossing in a little hubris of their own), until I hear back from her.

Maybe see what else gets slung down here for another half hour ... You know, lurk.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 15, 2017 - 11:09pm PT
Its good that you're climbing again cat t. I dunno why, but its good.

Thanks, DMT. I think it's good too.

Story time (intended to be at least partially related to these questions of why women climb as they do):
My friend Maria was an incredibly competitive person. She climbed harder than anyone we knew (including the men). She was extremely passionate about everything she did, which I loved about her. She was an endless source of encouragement and inspiration. She pushed herself really hard, but sometimes she'd get so lost in the "try-hard" that she seemed to forget how to like the things she loved. It was always interesting to watch the cycle: she'd train too hard, get really strong, question whether she even liked climbing at all, go to the Sierra for a couple weeks, and come back worse at gym climbing but a million times more in love with climbing (and the whole world). I found it sort of confusing, but mostly just endearing, because I've never been competitive about sport at all. I was never an athlete; my enjoyment of the outdoors has always been, cheesy as it sounds, more of the spiritual sort. We complemented each other well, I think--we mutually inspired each other to try hard, but also always remembered to lose ourselves in the joy of finding adorable tiny succulents growing out of glittering granite.

I remember her coming back from a sport climbing trip (I can no longer remember where it was, unfortunately) with stories of "mega crusher women who all climbed 5.13." She sounded as though she'd visited some mythical Amazonian land. She bemoaned the low standards of the women in our region--why did we so rarely see two women climbing together? Why were the vast majority of our gym companions dudes? Why didn't we know more strong women? What is wrong with all the wimpy women here?

I too wished to be one of these Amazonian crushers, but couldn't help but tease a bit, with "Maria, by your metric I am one of these weak women, and you still like me!"
This gave her a moment of pause. "You just try so hard, though. You'll whip off of something and get right back on and try it again. But all these other women, it's like they are too scared to even try."
"Maybe it doesn't matter if we know women climbing 5.13," I insisted. "Maybe what we should really be encouraging in other women is independence. Who cares if they're mega-crushers, if they're super excited to get out and lead 5.8s--if they're really excited to plan things themselves and take the reins?"
She leaned forward, eyes wide, and murmured, "I never thought about it that way," as though I'd proclaimed some amazing epiphany. (This was a Maria-behavior I saw frequently, whenever I shared a viewpoint that differed from her own. It's the only expression that comes to mind when I remember her.)

The week before she died, in the last conversation we had, she gave me the best compliment I've ever received. She exclaimed (she rarely just spoke; she usually exclaimed) that she finally understood me. She recalled a whole host of conversations like the one about the Crusher Ladies, conversations I'd long forgotten, in which she thought I "just seemed so okay with the way things were," that I "wasn't always trying to be optimize everything, but just to enjoy what I had." She told me that she thought she really understood how it was I felt that way, and that she was embracing that attitude, and that she was excited see how it felt to live with such a perspective. I thought it was hilarious (because I am super neurotic; it's only in comparison to Maria that I would seem chill or peaceful), but I was also overjoyed--she sounded so happy, and I was delightfully overwhelmed to hear that our rambling life-conversations had meant as much to her as they had to me.

TL;DR: People are motivated to climb for different reasons, but we can all learn something cool from those different perspectives.
nah000

climber
now/here
Sep 16, 2017 - 12:02am PT
TW: thanks for that last longer post. it's both thought provoking in its directness and helps me understand some of where you're coming from and how/why we can in some ways see things so similarly [we really do disagree very little on the "facts"] yet still see the need to communicate similar or even the same "facts" so differently. regardless, it's def making me contemplate, so thanks for that.

cat: deep thanks for that last post. it's one of the most beautiful things i've read on st in a long time... it's not often i shed a few tears over someone i never met... but i did reading your piece.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 16, 2017 - 05:41am PT
Cripes!

Dodged that bullet altogether then; good to know.

I will say, Jeb, that your poke entailing the risks I am running of committing a little manslating (when forwarding Hill's take from a conversation) did freshen me up a bit, and inspired cause for pause. And by the time Warbler chimed in, I had a pretty good cathartic laugh.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 16, 2017 - 06:25am PT
Cat said:
She pushed herself really hard, but sometimes she'd get so lost in the "try-hard" that she seemed to forget how to like the things she loved. It was always interesting to watch the cycle: she'd train too hard, get really strong, question whether she even liked climbing at all ...
See, Cat, that right there illustrates how Maria probably would've driven me nuts, and why you and I get along swimmingly. Her approach, and that same from others I've known, of whatever gender, leaves a bit of an oily spiritual residue on my palate. I equate it with avarice.

For me it's about artfully traversing the terrain, working with the subtleties of the landscape, abiding the natural constraints of mind, body, and medium, as opposed to forging ahead in a take no prisoners, Sherman's March style of engagement with the stone.


"Maybe what we should really be encouraging in other women is independence. Who cares if they're mega-crushers, if they're super excited to get out and lead 5.8s--if they're really excited to plan things themselves and take the reins?"
Bingo!

Back in the bad old days, I had a protégé, an intimate companion, Helga, who had been a diver and a gymnast in her youth. That young woman took to climbing like a duck to water, going from 5.6 in June of 1987 to following Coyne Crack, 5.12a, at Indian Creek, in autumn of the same year.

For the most part, during that first summer, I did the leading. One afternoon we were roping up at the base of On the Lamb, and as I was putting the rack together, she grabbed it from me and said, "Give me that thing. If I wanted a guide, I would hire one!"

This comment was completely disarming, leaving me in a puddle of giggles, and with the brilliance and beauty of it, she was on her way to independence. Her daughter Claire now climbs, and will be visiting Lisa and I, here in Nederland, tomorrow.


(because I am super neurotic; it's only in comparison to Maria that I would seem chill or peaceful)
Too funny. Self-knowledge through relational awareness. Ain't friendship a wonderful thing!


.............................


Helga, Coyne Crack, on-sight, no falls, fall of 1987:



(And yes, boys, she laybacked the fingers crux. So did I!)
(And had I been holding her rope, there would have been a healthier bit of slack in it during that second shot ... Just sayin'. Cuz I know that's coming.)


Helga's daughter, Claire, a few years ago, Needles of California, and Big Bear, or maybe Holcomb Valley:




From Claire's high school graduation announcement:

 I will be taking a gap year before heading off to University
of Colorado Boulder to study Astrophysics.

 I will spend most of next year in Yosemite, contributing to
the park, meeting new people and rock climbing.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 16, 2017 - 08:11am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Sep 16, 2017 - 09:07am PT
Interesting stuff here, and nicely said, DMT. My feelings exactly. I think so many of our difficulties come from competition. I know my wife has struggled in her competitiveness with me. I'm a bigger, better, stronger climber, and that still bothers her at times, even after being together for 30 years. I don't really care that I'm better, although I do get antsy sometimes when I know I could lead a given pitch more quickly. But that's on me. I honestly celebrate her accomplishments, and she does the same for me. She's got my back and has saved my bacon many times.

One of the "Three Treasures" of Lao Tse is "never striving to be first." That old Chinese goat had a point. While many wonderful and impressive things have been accomplished because of competition, peace of mind isn't one of them. Early on, I realized there was ALWAYS going to be someone better, smarter, stronger, faster, better looking, so clinging too much to ideas of competition became rather silly. Maybe if I had more talent...?
And, now, of course, most of the girlz out-climb me! And that's cool. This demographic shift in climbing has been amazing to see and really great for all the straight males out there who hope to have a climbing spouse/partner. Much better odds these days.

I see this competition bug eating away at a female climber I now. She is very competitive by nature, having won a full-ride scholarship to college as a runner. But her boyfriend, a young man I introduced to climbing, happens to be one of the most naturally gifted athletes I've ever known. He gets better so quickly at everything he tries. I loaned him a copy of Born to Run, a great book about ultra-running. Within two years he placed in the top ten in a couple of 50 milers! We love him, but we "hate" him, if you know what I mean. It' like that young woman, Helga, whom Tarbuster posted about. Here's proof life isn't fair: "[S]he took to climbing like a duck to water, going from 5.6 in June of 1987 to following Coyne Crack, 5.12a, in Indian Creek that fall." Gah! The young woman I'm talking about, however, gets super upset when she can't perform at some imagined level of climbing. It galls her that her boyfriend seems to float problems that she must struggle with. I just hope she can learn to love the sport, the process, whatever climb she's on rather than constantly compare herself to not only her boyfriend, but all the super hot climbers that play across the internets.

Joseph Campbell once pointed something out about the difference between men and women, and I think it holds some water: Women, by force of biology, have been given a REALLY important ability: They carry and give birth to children. Totally amazing and miraculous. Men? To find something even close to as important, we do stupid stuff like go to war, play football, climb cliffs, jump off cliffs, race cars, etc. We need the wisdom and grounding of women to pull us back from the edge sometimes. Of course, woman can do and enjoy all those crazy things, too, but it seems to me that to focus on who is better at what sport is, as DMT pointed, pointless. Yeah, some men can bench press over 600 pounds. So? Let's see him give birth to twins! Cain't do it? What a pussy.

My wife and I are going out on our tandem trike today to hear some music at Millpond--a shared effort towards a common goal. Sounds perfect to me.

BAd
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 16, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
Thanks for the return story, DMT! This was wonderful:
Before you know it something magical happens. Its stops being 'the old dog inviting the new kid along' to 'the new kid calling Pops to ask if he wants to go climbing next weekend. She has plans and she's pursuing them. We've always likened it to 'taking the reigns' too. Beginning to steer their own course, make their own decisions, to be an adult climber in the waking world. Not to look like one, they ARE one.

DMT also wrote:
If you set aside the competitive urge then warbler's ideas shouldn't have any meaning whatsoever. None.

To argue otherwise is to accept the competition. One does not have to ever compete, not with herself, not with others, to be a climber. She merely needs to climb.

DMT, I do understand your point. Yes, we live in a sufficiently progressive society that if I were truly high-minded I could just tune out the critics and realize there is no need to prove oneself to haters. But statements like the following,

If these feminist women would accept their biological limitations in athletics like most of their sisters do, their enjoyment of the activity, and their confidence level wouldn't be tainted by the fact they'll never consistently outdo the best men.

are so clearly intended to "put women in their place," that I feel compelled to point out the huge disservice such words do to men and women alike. Similar arguments have been used so many times throughout history to oppress various groups. I think most posters would be appalled if someone said "Women should just accept that they are not qualified for stressful or important work, like being a doctor or starting a company. If they just realized that they are far too sensitive for such work, they could embrace true happiness and confidence by realizing that they'll never be able to work as well as men!"

And really, even if it were not a social issue, is "well, if you want to be happy, just don't expect anything of yourself!" the kind of advice we should be giving to ANYONE??

BAd talked about competitiveness between male/female partners:
I know my wife has struggled in her competitiveness with me. I'm a bigger, better, stronger climber, and that still bothers her at times, even after being together for 30 years. I don't really care that I'm better, although I do get antsy sometimes when I know I could lead a given pitch more quickly.
Personally, any competitiveness that I feel toward my partner (an excellent mountain biker/skier who is not naturally inclined toward climbing) is actually rooted in worrying that I am just so slow that I will drive him crazy. It feels a bit frustrating when I have to give it my all just to keep up with his "casual" pace. I suppose it hurts my pride to know that he rides and skis with me because he loves my company in spite of the fact that I will never go a pace that he finds challenging.

I could see how it would be overwhelming for a woman (or a man!!) whose partner is better at every activity they do together. If that were true in my relationship, I would probably struggle with a sense of "what the hell am I good for, then?" I am very content to have a partner who excels at a different set of activities but is driven by similar motivations. He is happy to plan the ski trips (while I still unexpectedly topple over skinning up the tiniest of hills) and I am happy to lead him up long, easy rock routes.

But there's a huge, huge difference between saying, "it's not worth beating yourself up about it if your husband climbs harder than you" and saying, "you will never climb as well as men, so stop deluding yourself into thinking you could be good."

Edit:
Also, thanks nah000; I appreciate your response. I find it frightening to share such tales, because I don't want anyone to judge her based on a single anecdote from me. It is strange to realize that when the real person no longer exists, our unreliable accounts of them become the only reality. I hope I have not portrayed her as some caricature of competitiveness; she was a complex person, and I really admired that she possessed both exceedingly strong convictions and an eager willingness to understand the views of others.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Sep 16, 2017 - 03:39pm PT
^^^^




Susan
DanaB

climber
CT
Sep 16, 2017 - 04:11pm PT
Roy, I apologize for not responding sooner. Too complicated to explain, but I can't provide a link to the articles on gender differences and addiction. However, there does seem to be a fair amount of open access stuff on the topic. Pretty interesting stuff.

Best,

Dana



yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Sep 16, 2017 - 04:25pm PT
I don't "intend to put women in their place", cat

Biology does that perfectly

Ok then. Your place is to die about five years before women do. Enjoy!
DanaB

climber
CT
Sep 16, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
It's become obvious why Kevin was able to do ground-up first ascents of run-out, challenging face climbs.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 16, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
Thank you for getting back to me, Dana B.

I understood from your original post that you said you were somehow not quite qualified to be openly published on the matter as an authority.

Yours,
Roy
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 16, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
Jeepers, people!

I go way for several hours with Lisa for a picnic, and come back to a six (+ or -) way food fight.

Anyhow, there is a book we were pulling from which is on topic and quite brilliant.

The Sports Gene: inside the science of extraordinary athletic performance. David Epstein.
There's lots of insight in these pages, some of it getting into the differences between female and male athletes.
DanaB

climber
CT
Sep 17, 2017 - 12:04am PT
Actually, it was a comment about the composure and presence of mind you've got during this forum discussion - qualities also necessary for doing the ground-up game.
nah000

climber
now/here
Sep 17, 2017 - 12:20am PT
0. personal challenge time: can i keep this under 5 pages in length?

[spoiler: probably not... but i'm going to give it the ole college try anyway...]



1. story time:

embarrassingly, a couple years ago i walked into our office and started to tell my business partner about a subcontract i was negotiating. and i said to him something along the lines of "yeah, i jewed him down a couple thousand"... or some such.

he looked at me with a raised eyebrow and a rising tone in his voice: "what did you just say?" [and so that you know, this came from a guy that generally doesn't have a pc bone in his body...]

immediately, i realized something i'd never thought about prior and was like... riiiiiiiiight: jewed comes from jew! and relies on a bull shIt stereotype...

and that my friends is how a middle aged, raised as a redneck in a rural area with not a single actual jewish person in sight, learned to stop saying "jew" as a synonym for "negotiate”.

tl;dr: sure it's entirely possible to say sexist [or in this example racist things] without intending them as sexist [or in this case racist].



2. analysis time:

of five links posted here by The Warbler, assumably intended to demonstrate his science and fact based approach to his verbiage.

of the first study he wrote: "Here's another narrow study ". of the "second" study he wrote "Oh, and another:". after the "third" he wrote "and". before the "fourth" there is the suggestive "ummmm". and finally prior to the fifth we've got "I'll continue to narrow this down"

alrighty. this is probably going to take some time with five studies to look into...

and heeeere we go...



study number one:

the first article from the huffington post [a reputable science based journal /s] was based on this study.

assuming i haven't made any mistakes, that study was based on 42 females [21 placebo administered and 21 testosterone administered] and showed that there was an average of 6.8% decrease in learning time for the testosterone group with the testosterone group having a range of +/- 49.5% between the maximum and minimum results for the individuals. thus the testosterone administration shifted the average over about 1/15th the size of the width of the distribution.

in plainer english this means that the variance of the individual abilities was roughly 15X greater than the average difference that the administration of testosterone made.



study number "two":

second article mr. warbler cites comes from the daily mail [another highly regarded reporter of scientific study - again for the dense: /s].

oh wait, upon some clicking, this links back to exactly the same study as found just above... ok onward.



study number "three":

now we've got a wired article. [well, this is at least a step up in the reputability department - i'm done linking though]

dangit... same fookin study.



study number "four":

and now national geographic.

seriously? the same study again? jeez... i'd hate to take a close look into TW's resume if this is how closely he fact checks.



and finally study number five:

oh thank fUcking christ. i'll spare you the suspense: this one is actually a second study.

this one is again about spatial skills which one of the researcher says and i directly quote her words is "the largest cognitive sex difference known.”

ok. good. this should really speak to the The Warbler's points.

well, i was hoping to look into this one deeper, but none of the sources appear to be on line. the questions i would have looked to have answered would have been: what are exactly the average differences between the men and the women?; and what exactly are the distributions surrounding those averages?

unfortunately i don't have immediate access to the study so i can't break this down numerically. fortunately the article says exactly what i would expect if i were actually able to cite the numbers. and again i quote: "Many women have significantly stronger spatial ability than many men".

so again in plainer english: the male and female distributions have more than significant overlaps and being male or female is no real indicator of relative [male vs female] individual ability.

but it doesn't end there. unfortunately again there are no numbers cited regarding actual before and after tests, so i can't concretely demonstrate how significant it was... but interestingly enough if women went through a 15 [count them that is fifteen] hour spatial cognition development course their engineering retention rates increase 20-30% or said in another way: “If you start with 100 women, you’d expect 50 to graduate as engineers,” Sorby says. “If we give them this intervention, 80 will graduate from engineering.”

higher up in the article it also discusses how studies have shown that [and again i copy/pasta]: “boy” toys reinforce skills that are proven brain boosters. Playing with Legos and blocks, taking a shop class in high school and time spent playing 3-D computer games have all been shown to boost scores on mental rotation tests.

so to sum: the article doesn't cite readily accessible studies and does not give numbers. but it says enough to conclude that at least with regard to spatial skills [which again happen to be "the largest cognitive sex difference known.”]:

1. there are significant ability overlaps between individual men and women.
2. that fifteen hours of study greatly increases the skill regarding this ability
3. that "boys" toys [legos, blocks, 3d computer games] have all been shown to boost scores on mental rotation tests.

so to sum even more: the largest cognitive sex difference is highly influenced by learned ability and many "boys" toys have been shown to aid said learning, yet still there is significant overlap between individual male and female abilities with regards to this area.

tl;dr: the warbler cares about science like a stereotypical pimp cares about his stereotypical hoes. [hahahaha...]




3. hypothetical time:

The Warbler is distracted by the fact that racism is regarding race, which in general does not predict significant average innate physical and cognitive variances and sexism is regarding sex, which, simply put, sometimes does predict relatively small innate average differences.

while, the points i was making could be understood regardless, i get how TW’s correct point above could be distracting. so let’s switch to something more apples to apples.

and since TW likes to keep things charged by calling well meaning and sincere people “honey”, finding out what the gender of his respondents are, etc. i think it’s only fair if we talk about framing carpenters… the goose and the gander and all that…

alright.

so here are some facts. while i don’t have scientific studies, i’ve tried to make them so exaggerated that they aren’t needed as i can’t imagine anyone, even TW, arguing with these:

1. the best of the best [say top 0.00001%] middle aged [35-45 y.o.] framing carpenters are capable of being more productive over a long 14 hour day than the best of the best [again say top 0.00001%] near retirement [55-65 y.o.] framing carpenters.
2. there are near retirement framing carpenters who are capable of producing as much or more over a long 14 hour day than 98% of middle aged framing carpenters

this can be correctly stated as "the most elite middle aged framing carpenters can be more productive than the most elite near retirement framing carpenters over a 14 hr day."

but TW, would, assuming he uses the same verbiage he uses with regards to sex, say “middle aged framing carpenters are more productive than near retirement framing carpenters” even though that obviously completely contradicts the also correct point 2.

and is obviously ageist claptrap.

the point should be entirely clear but just in case: although there are differences between the elite of the elite, relative to the overall individual distribution they are minor and so the making of blanket statements about the sexes, with regards to the male vs female conversation, results in sexist bull crappy.

tl;dr: words matter and saying that there are average differences, or that there are differences at the most elite level is worlds apart from stating that there are wholesale categorical differences. the latter is not just politically incorrect and sexist, it is on a linguistic level just plain incorrect... more importantly it is an insidious method of and oft used attempt at psychological control.



4. beating a dead horse time:

The Warbler also doesn’t like sport climbing comparisons. those aren’t really what he’s talking about, he’s talking about “adventure climbing”. ok, fair enough.

i only used sport climbing because it has relatively harder numbers attached to it... but if TW wants to get esoteric i’m happy to oblige.

so how do we compare “adventure” climbers? and what adventure?

i mostly know about alpinism, so i’m going to stick with that one, and since there is no objective comparison of alpinist routes we are going to have to go subjective. well... here goes nothin…

if someone held a gun to my head and said you’re climbing a new route on the north face of north twin tomorrow or the trigger is getting pulled… but! you get to choose one “famous” currently active climber to rope gun for you…

well, upon reflection, the first seven names that would come out of my mouth would be male… but the eigth would be female.

the point again: there are about 3.7 billion males in the world and for the sake of the argument i would conservatively argue that in this moment at least one of the top twenty all round ice and rock "adventure climbing" alpinists is a female.

which means, assuming i’m close to correct, that that female is a better alpinist than 3.7 billion males and using my numbers is better than all but 0.00000054% of the male population. or is better than 99.999946% of males.

tl;dr: if we are rounding, the top female alpinist is better than 100%, 100.0% and all of the way to 100.000% of males, yet The Warbler believes those people arguing that saying “male alpinists are better than female alpinists.” is incorrect, is due only to their trying to avoid being politically incorrect… rather than it just being that stating it that way is incorrect.




5. summation time:

the conversation on this board has never been about whether or not there are average or elite sex differences.

if warbler and his followers are looking for that argument they should head over to the huffington post comment sections as the theoretical radicals who might believe that there are no sex differences are more likely to be found hanging out there.

things are snarky, because well meaning, thorough, insightful and infinitely more patient people than myself [Ed Hartouni and cat t. to name two] have repeatedly over the course of a good six or so threads at this point, attempted to point out how some of TW’s verbiage is harmful and straight up mistaken...

yet he continues to bob and weave like a drunk mohammad ali hoping people will forget that on this board those debating him are debating sexist language and rather continues to pretend like the conversation is about our denial of average or elite sex differences.

again: average sex differences exist, we aren’t denying them and at this point to continue arguing as such is just flat out disingenuous.

and while saying sexist things without intent does happen, at a certain point to continue to say something that is just straight up incorrect is to be sexist, whether or not that is your intent.

all of the above is EXACTLY why third wave feminism is needed.

it’s great that women got the vote and property rights.

it’s great that women have, in general, no legal constraints at this point stopping their progress.

that doesn’t mean that feminism’s job is done.

now we have to look at the residue that is left behind.

with race that includes statues put up after the fact during times of continued racial controls as conscious and unconscious reminders of who was still in power…

with sex it is often insidious linguistic constructs.



6. motivation time:

what is seriously wrong with you nah000 that you write multi page screeds on the internet to [mostly] people you've never met? and duuude... with so much occasional vitriol?

this question is brought to you by the angel on my right shoulder, who is ultimately being inspired by something that Largo wrote in one of these threads that was discussing feminism/gender/etc. while i'm not going to go back and quote directly and so will butcher, he said something to the effect that people who are throwing some of this highly charged verbiage around would be well served to explain why it is personally so important to them...

which is why i appreciated TW’s last longer missive. it helped remind me that the world he lives in, the people he surrounds himself with, and most importantly the world that he grew up in, is far, far different than the world i live in. this is not a judgement. and it’s not to dismiss his world.

it’s just a fact. and i sincerely appreciated his approach to that piece of writing.

and so when i read Largo’s point i thought: hmmm... this is actually a very good point. while not necessarily all are in a position where they can be transparent as to where some of the emotion and charge is rooted in, i am. and it’s stuck in the back of my mind since then.

so again here we go… off the top of my head there are three primary reasons:

1. i’ve been involved in two academic/professional streams in my life. the first was a hard science that sixty years ago would have in all likelihood been at least 90% male. the second was more practical arts based but it too would have been 90% male sixty years ago. in both of the programs i was in, the ratio of males to females was pretty close to 50/50. the short of this is that i’ve known quite a few close and not so close cis female friends who have had to deal with sexist residue both academically but also sometimes professionally. while the world is entirely different than it was 60 years ago, there is no question based on what i’ve seen at close second hand that at least in some areas, the residues persist, even if the legal constructs are gone.

2. my circle also includes a bunch of binary trans, non-binary, and just straight up gender queer folk. i’ve seen second hand how damaging the insidious nature of highly binary constructed language results in for folk who understand and experience the world in different ways than our north american, traditionally european derived highly binarily gendered culture and political structures, has been.

3. but most importantly and the reason why i have a lot of snark sometimes, is that i’ve also seen the effects of number two first hand. it can for some be, and was for myself, like being pecked to death by ducks. i’ve survived and in some ways it made me stronger at the same time that i’m still healing from a bunch of it... that's because the regular denial of who i am via the conscious and unconscious enforcement of traditional, stereotyped and categorical constructs was also something that very nearly killed me. [first spiritually, then later physically]



7. and finally... aside time:

tarbusier, tarbusier, tarbusier…

you might have wandered into the wrong side of town my friend.

a mediator? if you’re serious, from my perspective, you’d need to do two things. first, read all of the threads that this whole conversation and some of the accumulated vitriol is rooted in… there are probably only a half a dozen.

and you’d need to report back with what your other half has to say regarding the quotes i set out and what i view as sexist bull crappy and what TW views as decontextualized things he stands behind.

because so far, from my perspective, you look like an onlooker that has happened onto the middle of a gun fight and is making generalizing statements and summations about a situation you’ve only seen half of…

i could be wrong.



8. most importantly:

peace.



Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 17, 2017 - 12:23am PT

In lack of statistics this thread is doomed to end up judgemental ...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 17, 2017 - 02:24am PT
Nah000:
In point #7 you are responding to what was [well-intended] Zinfandel inspired babble on my part, so I took it down in short order, [~five hours before your #7 post], but clearly not soon enough!

Your [initial] assessment [of my reference to the tenets of mediation & conflict resolution] indicates I was misunderstood, [as I wasn't even remotely suggesting I would mediate this thing], mea culpa, cheers.

[edits]
Concerning this:
because so far, from my perspective, you look like an onlooker that has happened onto the middle of a gun fight and is making generalizing statements and summations about a situation you’ve only seen half of…
Could be. I can take a hit. I've read only this thread and one of the others (Davita Gurian dust up).
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 17, 2017 - 07:58am PT
Cat said:
I find it frightening to share such tales, because I don't want anyone to judge her based on a single anecdote from me. It is strange to realize that when the real person no longer exists, our unreliable accounts of them become the only reality. I hope I have not portrayed her as some caricature of competitiveness; she was a complex person, and I really admired that she possessed both exceedingly strong convictions and an eager willingness to understand the views of others.
No worries: your reportage about your dear, lost friend only increases our appreciation of her humanity. And your own.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 17, 2017 - 02:43pm PT
^^^

That's a killer video!
Of all the people in that short, the one I most relate to is the young girl with the yellow popsicle.
Naïve, sensitive, easily amused, somewhat surprised by the whole dustup. That's me.

.................

Say, anyone notice we lost a whole batch of posts at some point today?
That sh#t ain't right. (...or maybe someone thought it was, ha ha)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 09:14am PT
^^^
That's an interesting perspective put forth by the author, Kitten Holiday.

Also from the above article:
It’s an ugly world. I don’t think a man’s physicality is always bad, just as I don’t believe a woman’s sexuality is bad but I do believe both can be used with ill intentions and cause great harm. Acknowledging this danger is essential to avoid perpetuating it.
If we can disassemble this myth by deconstructing where the premises on which feminism are founded we might be able to reverse some of the toxic animosity between men and women and strengthen our bonds to work for a complementary equality where we can all thrive and be fulfilled.

While Nah000 has stated that I may look like an onlooker who has happened onto the middle of a gun fight and am making generalizing statements and summations about a situation I have only seen half of, which likely has some validity, here's another generalizing statement:

Why are people debating this so fervently? I'm saying it's because, deep down, and right there on the surface, the good people here on the forum, whatever their position, actually care about the disposition and outcome of gender relations in climbing. So though we may have conflicting perspectives, and though they may clash brilliantly, we all share that common interest, one of deeply caring.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 09:14am PT
Cat,

September 18, now one year from the loss of your dear friend, Maria ...

I hope that you get out into the fresh air today, and smell the song of the world, feeling your mind and body moving in harmony with living things, and that the memory of Maria, no doubt mixed with those unfathomable depths of sadness and loss, also rejuvenates you with the feeling of her steady companionship, recalling and rekindling your communion with the gift of her life.

Sincerely,
Roy
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 09:49am PT
See? We are making progress.

Let's just hope we get it together before the planet implodes around us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofeminism

Good job, DMT.
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2017 - 10:22am PT
Now, what if that 2017 top selling image had a woman that was way overweight in it.

Would it still have made it the top selling image in 2017 ?

There's a lot more than meets the eye in these kinds of observations ......
c wilmot

climber
Sep 18, 2017 - 10:26am PT
The change from women lounging naked (or perhaps laughing alone with salad) to women demonstrating physical or professional prowess was driven in part by the Lean In collection, which Getty developed in 2014 with Sheryl Sandberg’s nonprofit to seed media with more modern, diverse and empowering images of women. The collection, now with 14,000 photos, has the unofficial tagline, “You can’t be what you can’t see.”

Things change when powerful people socially engineer our society...
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2017 - 10:27am PT
Yes ^^^^

Both for the good and the bad .....
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Sep 18, 2017 - 12:02pm PT
c wilmot thinks women are powerful people!
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 18, 2017 - 12:10pm PT
I like both pics.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 12:33pm PT
Kevin said, with respect Ecofeminism:
This is a perfect example of one of the main fatal flaws of feminist ideology.
I tend to agree, though I'm not very well read, and I have a copy of Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex, I haven't even cracked it.

Though, in Ken Wilber's Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality, he gives a fairly exhaustive critique of a good handful of feminist ideologies, and how they may or may not be conducive to a productive worldview, enabling unity.

But the point you've been making all along, Kev, with which I tend to agree, is that we should all be Ecofeminists, (yet, we don't need the label, or any specific alliance) and it shouldn't be predicated upon some overarching brutal Patriarchy. Matriarchy, Patriarchy, this that or the other, too much divisiveness.

In that wiki link, the divisiveness is one of the criticisms of Ecofeminism.

We respect our differences, we get along, and we work as a team, regardless of gender, race, creed, economic, social, or educational status.

Nationalism is a problem. Buckminster Fuller's A Critical Path, gets into a bunch of that, essentially saying we need to unify globally, get smarter at working on the technical problems of surviving as a race, together.

[edit] I will say those Ecofeminist women have done a lot of good for me, even if they posit (as a generality, which historically has held some water) I am the problem.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Sep 18, 2017 - 02:14pm PT
This millennial bullshit about anybody being able to do anything falls on its face in the real world.

Tell that to Obama.

Tell it to Bill Clinton.

Tell it to Trump.




Susan
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Sep 18, 2017 - 03:06pm PT
How about, the sum of a woman is equal to the sum of a man, in total human points? They just achieve those points through different paths.

Arne

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 18, 2017 - 03:08pm PT
The survival of the human species requires around one man for every ten women or so. Hmmm....looks like we have a superfluous amount of men. Maybe that's why men post here in about a ten (make that more) to one ratio to women....lot's of time and nothing better to do. Men will do anything....as long as it makes them feel needed. Sigh...even though, deep down, they know they aren't.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 18, 2017 - 03:17pm PT
DMT, that's awesome. I think we're making great strides!

DMT said:

I don't give a crap if its social engineering or what. Guess what, its ALL social engineering.

This sums it up perfectly!!

Roy, I think you are being led astray by the assertion (by those with an anti-feminist bent) that feminists consider classically male traits to be "bad," or that feminists think that using traditionally female traits to emotionally abuse men is somehow acceptable. Women are not inherently good, and feminists are NOT asserting that women are inherently good--women are just as capable as men of acting with violence, deceit, manipulation, and aggression. This attempt to invalidate the cause of gender equality by asserting that feminists think women are above reproach is absurd. If these writers really cared about any cause besides just shitting on feminism, perhaps they would tackle topics that actually matter, or acknowledge the fact that our patriarchal cultures does just as much to oppress men. The cause of feminism is truly also the cause of bringing awareness to domestic abuse against men, of allowing men to take paternal leave, of creating a society in which men can express themselves freely and be active parents, the list goes on...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
I hope you're doing well, Cat. Since you've left our favorite forum topic, it's actually stabilized and gotten quite good for the moment. I have to say, we need you here. A bunch of guys talking about feminist influences is a bit like listening to one hand clapping.

.............................................

Interesting read in the New York Times this morning:

In Angela Merkel, German Women Find Symbol, Not Savior

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/13/world/europe/angela-merkel-germany-election.html?emc=edit_nn_20170917&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=77568457&te=1


During the election campaign — and in earlier ones — Ms. Merkel shunned the word “feminist.” She has rarely if ever publicly promoted the issue of advancement for women — and women in Germany have not advanced much.

“Just as Obama did not end structural racism in America, Merkel has not ended structural sexism in Germany,” Ms. Wizorek said.

The few women who do make it to the top, or close to it, speak of the constant torment of being judged.

“We get no respect from society as working women,” said Angelika Huber-Strasser, a managing partner for KPMG Germany and a mother of three. “They call us raven mothers,” after the black bird (also unfairly) accused of pushing its young out of the nest.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
Cat,

If you carefully digest all of the posts since your last, and parse how I have handled my viewpoints since, I'm not sure you'll see that I am quite in the place you suggest.

Though I certainly hear you in your last paragraph, as a stand-alone statement, independent of my position.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
I get you there, Kevin.

Or if I do, what you are saying or suggesting, is that to a great degree, in this country, we've made great strides, and are in fact cresting the hill? And your, and to some degree my contention, is that it's gotten a bit overwrought.

It's probably not as linear as all of this. Women have made great strides in this country, and they still have a ways to go. It's a question of how, n'est pas?

But yes, I thought the article about Germany was relevant, in that it points out that the pendulum needs some pushing over there. The question is, who's going to do it if not feminists?

I hope I'm not making things too complicated. Fact is, it's complicated!
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 18, 2017 - 04:24pm PT
Roy,
I should clarify: I did not mean to imply that you'd adopted such a view. I suppose I meant to emphasize that when one agrees that the claims of straw-feminism are crazy, without pointing out that those are not claims put forth by actual feminists in this thread, it could send one running in circles after an enemy that was only ever imagined up.

And thanks. Yes, today's the day. sneaking away from the wormy neurons early for some fresh air...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
10 four, girlfriend.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 04:45pm PT
ionlyski sayeth:
How about, the sum of a woman is equal to the sum of a man, in total human points? They just achieve those points through different paths.
Very nice.

So, for anyone who still has the Serena McEnroe dustup rattling around in their head, taking this ^, and after speaking with Lisa and Lynn Hill and listening to them parse that whole dustup, if McEnroe had been really on his toes, here's what he would've said:

Serena is the best female player who's ever lived. She's not the best player who's ever lived. But she is the most accomplished player who's ever lived, because in her category, she has 23 grand slams, and Federer has 19.

Dig?
c wilmot

climber
Sep 18, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
Serena Williams is the best tennis player ever...who uses oxycodone and hydromorphone (opioids), prednisone, prednisolone, and methylprednisolone...

Off topic but it bothers me how we let our athletes cheat. Thankfully Russia exposed our hypocritical policies
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
Okay, let's all go get a beer!
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Sep 18, 2017 - 04:57pm PT
I'm not so sure that the whole "Moose" thing has been fully resolved to my satisfaction.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 18, 2017 - 04:59pm PT
If you need context on the origin of my feminism, I grew up in rural Texas. My public school sex-ed consisted of "don't unwrap your precious gift," no joke. The views of lawmakers toward birth control, sex-ed, and general medical care for women in my home state are appalling.I don't think there is some evil conspiracy by all men to oppress women, but as long as the lawmakers in the middle of our country remain committed to barring young women from accessing reproductive health resources, I will call myself a feminist.


Beer time ;)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 05:03pm PT
Context is everything!

So is tone. Burp. (it's already 6:00 PM here)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 18, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
Here too....drinking a nice pinot noir....burping is unthinkable, for the next few minutes.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 05:31pm PT
STFU.
Kevie.
Br-a-a-ap.
WBraun

climber
Sep 18, 2017 - 05:41pm PT
So all these so called feminists and their so called equality can the do the heavy lifting?

My experience on sar is a lot of em turn quickly into little girls.

Have em carry the wheel, they run away.

Put some meat into the litter carry out and some just put their hand on the rail so you constantly are forced to compensate the litter becoming unbalanced on their weak side.

Oh but I climb hard sh!t and I'm SAR they claim, whoopity fukin doo.

BFD any monkey can do that, climb hard.

Sometimes I actually believe that poor cleaning lady at motel six has got more balls and brawns and she ain't no so called feminist .....
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 18, 2017 - 06:11pm PT
Well as Vanilla Ice always said:


"Word to your mother" (Without whom you (and I) wouldn't be here).



And let's not forget apes can probably outclimb monkeys, depending upon how much strength and size is required.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 18, 2017 - 06:23pm PT
Here's lookin' at you kids

And as Bogart once said, after he dropped the joint

The bigger they come, the harder it getz

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
But wait, that's not all folks!

 If you read this article, you get the Complete Set of Ginsu Knives, and for a nominal extra shipping fee the Military Grade Flashlight is absolutely free of charge!

A Female Viking Warrior! Tomb Study Yields Clues

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/14/world/europe/sweden-viking-women-warriors-dna.html?emc=edit_nn_20170918&nl=morning-briefing&nlid=77568457&te=1&module=ArrowsNav&contentCollection=Europe&action=keypress®ion=FixedLeft&pgtype=article

The scholars said their findings, based on DNA tests, “suggest that women, indeed, were able to be full members of male-dominated spheres” in Viking society.

Not only was her body surrounded by armaments, but on her lap was a chesslike board game known as hnefatafl, or King’s Table. Its placement suggested “that she also made strategic decisions, that she was in command,”

Viking society was patriarchal, but women were not closed off uniformly from power. “They could own property,” Dr. Hedenstierna-Jonson said. “They could inherit. They could become powerful merchants. That of course gave security and a level of independence.”

It sounds somewhat disputed, and we could haggle over why that is so, which is touched in brief. (I'm not that man) Nonetheless, it's on topic and it's interesting.

Happy sailing!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 06:36pm PT
How many posts back?

(this was today's paper)

Cripes. I ... guess ... I'll ... have to take it down ...
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 18, 2017 - 07:07pm PT
I could out pull you with my right arm tied behind my back or folded petitley in from of me, eh?



Anybody can do it, so long as you practice a lot.
-Allen Fisher

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 10:28pm PT
Long live the matriarchy!


 Ms. Tarbuster and Ms. Hill have assured the producers that no portion of the fragile male ego was harmed during the making of this thread: it was, however, thoughtfully excised, preserved in formaldehyde, and on the third Tuesday of every month, will be on display in the Smithsonian, where small children, following a round of milk and cookies and just prior to their afternoon naps, will be given a brief talk on this once vaunted form of consciousness.
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 18, 2017 - 10:37pm PT
I have to say, we need you here. A bunch of guys talking about feminist influences is a bit like listening to one hand clapping.

I don't know, Roy...speaking metaphorically...it doesn't sound so much like one hand "clapping" to me...more like one hand jerking.

But only from one particular beleaguered antifeminist who colors his language in shades of misogyny and, of course, denial.

And then there's Nah000, whose prose I've read with great surprise and increasing pleasure. He has revealed himself to be perhaps the most brilliant communicator on this thread.

His ability to assimilate, distill, refine and, most importantly, cut through the cow-patty-minefields of disinformation is remarkable. A true joy to read.

Like watching a master fencer who pinks his opponent again and again...and all his poor opponent can do is...well...bleed trite rhetoric all over the page...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 18, 2017 - 11:02pm PT
Nah000 is a good man. [I don't care to critique his opinions, I just read them.]

Nice to hear from you L! It's been too long. I hope you're well.
SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:32am PT
Nice summary L.

I hope life is treating you well!

Susan
uncrushed

Trad climber
North Vancouver
Sep 19, 2017 - 08:26am PT
Since you raised straw men ...

how about posting some links to studies that prove women have better navigational skills than men?

Nobody is trying to prove that.

Nobody is trying to answer all your inane questions either.

Don't take that for agreement.

*kisses*
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 19, 2017 - 08:39am PT
heforshes

What do you call a Caucasian person who defends the rights for equality of other folks like Latino or African Americans?
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 19, 2017 - 09:09am PT
you're funny
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 09:37am PT
Interesting,
When I do an on-screen inspection of that photo it says it's only 1028 pixels wide.
It's not blowing out my screen, or creating a scroll bar, which I think is what you're referring to.

Thanks for the heads up, Kath.
I'll try resizing at 900 and you tell me?

[Photobucket is pretty crappy these days. There's supposed to be a limiter of 1024 pixels, and that's how it's reading on my screen.]

[Yes, it was over 3000, and on your end, their limiter wasn't in play. Something to do with their third-party hosting BS.]
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Sep 19, 2017 - 09:49am PT
Here's a belay partner for ya Warbler ;)
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 09:53am PT
For sure, I get it. Bad form.
Is it working better now?
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 10:07am PT

Gorilla goes crazy after viewing video of human female arm wrestler who he knows he could easily have taken down.


Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 10:12am PT
So, Z, what do you really think they're clashing over?
Females, lunch, opinions, or the frustration from incarceration?

Or maybe ... It's just entertainment.
Like Walt Shipley's used to say, free soloing on acid is like killing boredom with a sledgehammer.
DanaB

climber
CT
Sep 19, 2017 - 10:28am PT
Like watching a master fencer who pinks his opponent again and again...and all his poor opponent can do is...well...bleed trite rhetoric all over the page...


There you have it, differences in opinion. I thought those posts were poorly thought out, had many, many logical inconsistencies, and were weak and unconvincing.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 10:50am PT
tB. Most clashes of this type are over territory or mating.

Appears to be in a zoo - so likely mating.

Sometimes they like to show off for themselves, sometimes for the galz.

De Niro is rumoured to have studied with this guy for Taxi Driver.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 11:08am PT
Appears to be in a zoo - so likely mating.
Here's a film about another kind of zoo. I dig haute couture. It's a form of high art, to be sure. High art applied to a woman's physique.

Lots of other great lines in here. Women dressing for women. Male designers dressing women to reflect the woman they want, and gay male designers dressing women to reflect the woman they want to be!

Of course the models are so extraordinary, as to be nearly extraterrestrial.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Kitty Potter:
It's a strange and exhilarating moment for fashion; the only rule is, is that there are no rules!
...
This is Kitty Potter in Paris and I'm here with Thierry Mugler, a cutting-edge couturier known for his sartorial shock tactics. Thierry, Thierry, you know it's been said, it's been said, that your clothes are kind of overt, extreme sexual subtext, which is clearly at odds with, ah, the image of women as capable and independent of men, so I was just wondering, our audience would love to know, really, what you think about that?

Thierry Mugler:
Well, it's all about looking good, helping the silhouette [draws down her microphone] … And it's all about getting a great f*#k, honey.

Kitty Potter:
Well, thank you, thank you. Thank you very much. Well, that was Thierry Mugler explaining his unique views on style …

One of my favorite films. Kim Basinger is an absolute standout in this one. Would seem to be on topic. Robert Altman's movies also seem to parallel the ensemble characteristics, aural muddle, and rich tapestry of interactions here on the forum.

Thierry Mugler, Vogue 2017:
https://www.vogue.com/fashion-shows/fall-2017-ready-to-wear/mugler

Thierry Mugler:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thierry_Mugler

Ready to Wear (Prêt-à-Porter), film:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr%C3%AAt-%C3%A0-Porter_(film);
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 11:57am PT
That bit with the silverback in the mirror. Wow. What awesome beasts!
Check him out when on all fours: I wonder if they get lower back pain?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 19, 2017 - 12:02pm PT
I wonder if they get lower back pain?

Only for a couple of days per month.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 12:53pm PT
She got the crazy part down
You're referring to Kim Basinger as Kitty Potter, correct?
She's a total bust up throughout. Might be her most outstanding performance anywhere.

I'd like to see her reaction to getting spanked by a man!
Kevin, Kevin. Have you learned nothing here in these pages? Ha ha.

I'd like to see your reaction to getting spanked by a woman ... Well maybe not ... Okay ...

You need to go through some serious reeducation, my man!
I'm sure we can get you the help you need...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
Warbler said:
She also told me that women would be as adventurous as men, but they aren't taught that it's normal, so that's why they don't adventure as much in climbing.

That's why we need more women, particularly millennials, on a thread like this, to really draw a bead on what's happening out there. And women like Cat, who are avowed feminists, and self-secure enough to hang on a forum overwrought by opinionated males, of whatever stripe. (Not to overlook L, Susan, Kath, Tammy, and others).

You'll recall, way up thread, over a bunch of speed bumps, I mentioned Helga's daughter, Claire, would be visiting. Now, Helga describes herself as fiercely independent. Claire will be in Yosemite for the next month, living out of her truck, and will spend the rest of the year climbing before she returns here to Boulder for school. So I don't know about fierce, but she's definitely well on her way to being an independent woman.

So, over pizza with Lisa, Claire, and her companion Avery, as part of my informal survey related to this thread, I asked Claire and Avery what they thought about feminism and the PC aspect of it becoming overwrought. And broached the general issue of gender relations in sport. As well as I could reflect what we've talked about here on the forum, they agree with you, me, Lisa, apparently Dana B, and a handful of others. Namely, that it has become overwrought in our culture. Not that feminism doesn't have a place; it's just that they think people should chill out a bit.

Now, if you happen to be a young woman who grew up in Texas, as Cat did, one could see how contextually you might have a very different feeling about these things. And it would be warranted!

You and I are Californians. Same with Helga and Claire and Avery. Lisa however, is from Cincinnati. But I have to say, one reason I married her, other than for her sense of humor, is that she ranks as the most self-assured, self-directed, and enlightened woman I could find over 20 years of searching. I like to say she burns clean, which is to say she harbors no hangups that I can identify, gets over things quickly, is super well-adjusted, and is very progressive overall in her politics. In a word, self-actualized.

And to get in a little deeper: to look at him, it's pretty clear that Avery presents overwhelmingly, in the physical sense, like a young woman. Claire says he gets that a lot. Pure conjecture, and maybe not fair to do so here in public, but I will say Lisa thinks he may well be a young woman who identifies as a male. If that's so, and he's in line with those of us who thinks these things are overwrought, then that says something to me about young people these days.

Now I don't really care what his biological realities are. Avery is the most well read, athletically motivated, artistically inclined and brilliant young person I've met in many years. If those two 18-year-olds are any indication of the potential in millennials, I think the future is bringing good things.

 And of course Kevin, you know I'm completely joking about the reeducation. But just to be sure others don't fail pick up on that fact ...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
Oh, shoot, see how I am?

I guess Cat, whom I presume to be in her mid-late 20s, is a millennial?

It's about when they come of age, not when they are born.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 19, 2017 - 03:21pm PT
I haven't been paying as much attention to this thread, but--

Yeah, any way you slice it I'm in the middle of the millenials (I'm 27). It may seem bizarre to y'all, but I come off like a curmudgeonly old man in comparison to the "gen Z" Stanford kiddos I see running around here (the students I directly teach don't seem so bad...). I don't know if it's their youth or their Californian-ness, but from the perspective of a woman who grew up just before social media and smartphones exploded, these kids seem bizarrely unprepared for a world in which all activities are not pre-prescribed. SF Bay is a weird pressure-cooker, to be sure, and maybe every generation is doomed to disapprove of the one that follows, but the overwrought feminism that you describe, Roy, seems like a generational tendency toward the overwrought, not a trend that has its source within feminism itself.

And also, let's remember the west coast bubble. There are 17 year old Californian "feminists" who might go on a rampage about the man in "humanity," and as sensible people we should not let the cacophonous voices of Fake Tumblr Activists sully the name of feminism while real causes remain for youth a couple states over, and for female tech workers in our own damn state. There are also 50-something Californian men who will rally against feminism because the young women in their local town now have MORE educational opportunities than a young man, and in liberal-land they're probably not wrong. But there are huge swathes of the country where that is not true at all and pooh-poohing feminism as outdated and overwrought is unfair to those neighbors.

Related to the lack of independence in Gen Z, I thought this article was pretty good, not just hand wringing "oh the kids these days," but actually thoughtful:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/has-the-smartphone-destroyed-a-generation/534198/?utm_source=eb
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
Cat said:
but the overwrought feminism that you describe, Roy, seems like a generational tendency toward the overwrought, not a trend that has its source within feminism itself.
Thanks for that, Cat. That's good, suggesting it's a generational tendency. Definitely, we don't want to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, in terms of the productive nature of feminism, but to identify the sources of prevalent trends. That's why I made reference to ecofeminism several pages back, because I think it embodied some real needs and did a damn lot of good.

But there are huge swathes of the country where that is not true at all and pooh-poohing feminism as outdated and overwrought is unfair to those neighbors.
Please remember, you'll never find me disparaging feminism with a wide brush, from a couple pages back, I said:

But yes, I thought the article about Germany was relevant, in that it points out that the pendulum needs some pushing over there. The question is, who's going to do it if not feminists?

I'm not real easy to read in isolated posts. My positions, if it can be said that I have any, are developed over long spans.

When the women's marches happened this year (or the end of last year), I was very, very grateful, for I felt they might be saving the world, both in the short and long term. One of Lisa's friends went to New York, and if I were mobile, I would've gone as well.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 03:47pm PT
The "Mad Pooper" is a she...

"I came outside, and I was like ... 'Are you serious?'" Budde said of the time she caught the woman, a jogger, in the act. "'Are you really taking a poop right here in front of my kids?' She's like, 'Yeah, sorry!'"

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/09/19/jogger-known-the-mad-pooper-keeps-pooping-sidewalk-colorado-springs/682146001/
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 19, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
So, over pizza with Lisa, Claire, and her companion Avery, as part of my informal survey related to this thread, I asked Claire and Avery what they thought about feminism and the PC aspect of it becoming overwrought. And broached the general issue of gender relations in sport. As well as I could reflect what we've talked about here on the forum, they agree with you, me, Lisa, apparently Dana B, and a handful of others. Namely, that it has become overwrought in our culture. Not that feminism doesn't have a place; it's just that they think people should chill out a bit.

This attitude is a bit frustrating. Analogies, because they're easy: a non-white person who grew up in a wealthy, multiracial community, with many non-white role models, might reach adulthood without ever experiencing overt racism. Can such a person claim that racism is not a problem in America, because in their sub-community it wasn't a problem? By loudly proclaiming that their experience is the representative one, such a person might actually detract from the credibility of the (many, many) Americans who still experience systematic racism on a daily basis.

I am glad that there are women for whom feminism feels irrelevant. That is wonderful. If it means that they grew up without the barrage of creepy comments from male teachers and customers and strangers, and without the dearth of female role models, and without being laughed at for being the only woman in a math class, etc, then I'm happy for them. I hope that any hypothetical offspring I have grow up in a town so progressive that I will never feel compelled to even mention the word feminism. But I wouldn't take it to mean those women are inherently chill, or somehow stronger or more independent. I'd take it to mean they had excellent role models, and they're lucky, and I hope that more women can have lives like that.

Edit:
Considering that you said,
But yes, I thought the article about Germany was relevant, in that it points out that the pendulum needs some pushing over there. The question is, who's going to do it if not feminists?
you probably actually agree with me. My apologies for sounding so harsh; since you respond reasonably I may be spewing thoughts better directed toward other posters in your direction...!
DanaB

climber
CT
Sep 19, 2017 - 03:57pm PT
A while ago I subscribed to Bitch magazine; it's interesting and it's fun to read.
But the impressions I often get after finishing the articles, and the authors and the staff of the magazine seem to agree, are:

Once you begin self-examining for gender bias, sexism, and racism the process never stops.
This process never should stop if you're sincere.
And every time you think you've become aware and sensitive, the pressure to be more so increases by orders of magnitude. You will never arrive.
A bit like living with a constant, immediate, and intense feeling of original sin.

Sorry for the free association. And after a whole day fussing over and fine tuning a freelance article, I'm not all that interested in clear, concise writing.





Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 04:13pm PT
Cat said:
you probably actually agree with me. My apologies for sounding so harsh; since you respond reasonably I may be spewing thoughts better directed toward other posters in your direction...!

I think we agree on quite a lot. What I'm trying to do with you is figure stuff out together. I don't really do debate or dialectic very well. I'm interested in expanding my understanding, not proving my points. Double check my post from 3:46 PM, where I added something about the women's marches. The whole post may read more clearly right now.

I use voice control software exclusively, and invariably my posts require some tweaking to fix things I don't see at the outset, even if I edit them carefully before posting. And sometimes I just get excited, and post too quickly!

You're an academic, and you can churn through stuff at lightning speed. Or so I imagine. I carefully digest everything everybody says here, and get really granular ... And even reread stuff.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 19, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
DanaB wrote:
But the impressions I often get after finishing the articles, and the authors and the staff of the magazine seem to agree, are:

Once you begin self-examining for gender bias, sexism, and racism the process never stops.
This process never should stop if you're sincere.
And every time you think you've become aware and sensitive, the pressure to be more so increases by orders of magnitude. You will never arrive.

This is an interesting observation, and I agree that this arises as a sort of fundamental problem when engaging in social activism. Must we look back and condemn our own pasts, for we were insufficiently enlightened about some social problem in 2010, and 2011, and 2012, and...? Must we always be ashamed of our own good fortune, since it is not shared by all? What do we really accomplish with shame and blame, besides a spiral of negativity?
DanaB

climber
CT
Sep 19, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
Must we always be ashamed of our own good fortune, since it is not shared by all? What do we really accomplish with shame and blame, besides a spiral of negativity?

Yes, I wanted to add that but ran out of steam, and some of the Bitch mag. writers make those points, i.e., no need for endless shame or excessive guilt about our imperfections.
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 19, 2017 - 05:06pm PT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now

Sep 18, 2017 - 11:02pm PT
Nah000 is a good man. [I don't care to critique his opinions, I just read them.]

Nice to hear from you L! It's been too long. I hope you're well.

Hey Roy,
I'm lovin' your posts and photos! Voice recog software seems to be working for you.
Got a fixer-upper we're remodeling...and Monty county requires jumpin' thru more hoops than Barnham & Baileys lion act, so there ya go. Doing more jumpin' than climbin', but still getting the climbing in.

SC seagoat

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone

Sep 19, 2017 - 07:32am PT
Nice summary L.

I hope life is treating you well!

Susan

Hi Susan,
Good to see you back, too! I seem to recall you were on an Adventure...if I can use that trademarked word in relation to a woman, that is. ;-)
Anything worth posting a TR for?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 05:34pm PT
Thanks for the report, L!
Keep jumping through those hoops, and at some point we hope to hear of your bad old self relaxing on the veranda after it's all done!

And you know, somewhere I got the idea you were at one point a model or worked in the fashion industry. So besides the on-topic interaction between Kitty and the designer, that post from Ready to Wear was for your amusement, as well as my own.
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 19, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
And you know, somewhere I got the idea you were at one point a model...

Hahahaha! I've worked so hard to put those days behind me, and now you bring them all back...with a vengeance. Thanks, Roy! :-)


I'm gonna go look at those vids now...see if I can find the feministas in them...
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 19, 2017 - 05:44pm PT
Here's the thing though, and I touched on it already -

Those lawmakers were elected by the people of that state, roughly half of them women, and to a great extent, especially with abortion and other women's issues, their policies and actions reflect the will of the electorate, so they are supported by lots and lots of women. In reality, in the Bible Belt, those laws reflect the will of the church through the electorate. Feminism dubiously claims to be unbiased towards men, but it goes without saying that it should not oppose the will of the majority of women. And the majority of women in states like Texas just might support the kind of legislation that you, as a Bay Area millennial feminist, think is terribly "patriarchal" and sexist.

So I get your frustration with the way things are there but I question if feminism targets the real force of the problem, or instead makes men the scapegoat because they are mostly the face of the machine.

Challenging the church, organized religion (Christianity), and its patriarchy is not something feminists are overtly willing to do, it seems to me, understandably, I think probably because so many women in America identify with Christianity. That leaves average nice guys like me, seemingly, as the target of their frustration.

Am I wrong? Or does feminism actively pester the Christian establishment directly as being the root cause of a lot of controversy over womens' heath issues?

Hey Kevin,

I certainly don't think that feminism dictates that the "wills of women" must be supported simply because they are women. Yes, half of those constituencies are women, and I think that they have internalized the sexism endemic to their home so deeply that they (the women) end up taking an active role in maintaining sexist policies and sexist cultural expectations. They are, to put it in the harshest words possible, viciously sexist. They (the women) contribute to the problem both by voting for inherently sexist policies, and perhaps more importantly, by instilling a set of "virtues" in their children that are, in my opinion, quite the opposite of virtuous.

Especially after the 2016 presidential election, I've given a bit of thought to how the hell such women can be so content to vote against their own interests. My best explanation basically borrows the tagline from the "active women" photo collection presented by DMT upthread: "You can’t be what you can’t see.” These women must truly believe that it is impossible for women to be seen as equals, either because they think that it would somehow demean men, or because they think that women are incapable of the same accomplishments as men.

In my analysis-from-afar, I suppose I'd guess that these ladies are afraid of surrendering the social advantages they do have. The "female powers" that you constantly allude to, which I think are neither admirable nor universal. If they give up their coquettish behavior and act with the brash independence considered too manly, will they lose their domestic power? I wish it could somehow be made clear to such women that 1) their worth does not depend on their value to a man, and 2) there is not some limited amount of "independence" to go around. If women become more strong and independent, men are not going to wither away into effeminate slugs. (And I suppose 3, there are plenty of smart, masculine dudes who absolutely do not want a simpering girl who imagines herself to possess "feminine wiles," but rather a strong life partner who is their equal.)

I feel guilty speaking so harshly of such women, because I do think they are trapped, in a way. I do not think I am better than them for not falling into the same trap. My mom's a chemical engineer; my dad's a process engineer. Anytime my friends' moms made comments about how I was too tomboyish or too smart or insufficiently cute (and you can bet they did), my parents made it damn clear to me that I should keep on being tomboyish and smart and that I was plenty cute with no makeup on. But how do you break free of that pattern when you have no one to show you how?

And...yeah, I actually do think that this idea that "being a strong woman demeans your man" has its roots in Christian ideas. I think the so-called virtues propagated by our country's favorite religions, if followed, serve to churn out timid women who are ashamed of their own sexuality and afraid to speak their minds. I suppose when I throw around the phrase "patriarchal society," it could easily be replaced with "society with prudishly Puritanical origins."
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 05:55pm PT
Okay, I see all of the above, Cat. But in addition, I think what Kevin was asking is, can feminists make inroads to those puritanical/patriarchal cultures and seek change, by way of communicating with the women in those conservative cultures?

To me that all seems like culture wars stuff, and that Kevin and you and I and all feminists have much more in common than we do with those Texan women, and their propensity for voting against their own self-interest.

Did I posit that in a useful manner, Kevin?
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 19, 2017 - 06:03pm PT
Okay, I see all of the above, Cat. But in addition, I think what Kevin was asking is, can feminists make inroads to those puritanical cultures and seek change, by way of communicating with the women in those conservative cultures?

I wish I knew the answer to this. It seems like we've grown only more polarized, and I'm not sure how to cross the cultural gap. I'm not really sure how to conjure up phrasing that doesn't immediately lump me into "condescending coastal elite" and render my words inaudible. But I certainly agree that liberal feminism does a pretty terrible job communicating with conservative women.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
If I was hearing Kevin correctly, and everything in my last post reflected that, let me try an example from another milieu:

I know a woman who did mediation and conflict resolution in the Balkans about 25 years ago. She told me that the strongest method of outreach was to work with the women, because as child bearers and family builders, they were the better people to reach out to as change agents, in that in many ways, it's men that are imbued with the tendency toward retaliation and war and that endless cycle of aggression.

It's the women who are more likely to seek change and to rebuild. If anybody remembers what Werner said a while back, when the men fail, the women start leading.

Another example that has always held strong within me comes from a novel by Jon Fowles called The Magus. In it, he describes war as essentially a total breakdown by men of an understanding of relationship; of relationship to self, to partner, to family, to environment, and to everything that matters.

So you go for the women when you want that kind of productive change!
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
Whaal, they had it comin'. Or did they?

Not your typical KKK rally. Note lack of hoods.

cat t.

climber
california
Sep 19, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
Oh, I don't think I really understood your question. I guess I think the best way to support those women is to support women's health resources (so like, Planned Parenthood in our own country; I know less about women's health initiatives abroad, but this is making me realize I should). I think that giving women control over when/where they want a kid is a huge step toward autonomy.

One basic question is - if a majority of women are happy, or accepting at least, of roles in society that feminists are trying to eliminate as a standard, is that not an attempt to control women
I think the easiest answer here is to return to the point about "equality of choice." Feminism should not be used as an excuse to insult women who care a lot about their appearance, or women who choose to be caregivers, or any other classically feminine thing (or men who do those things).
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
But seriously, I do question the legitimacy of feminism when it judges vast numbers of women to be sexist against women. One basic question is - if a majority of women are happy, or accepting at least, of roles in society that feminists are trying to eliminate as a standard, is that not an attempt to control women in a similar way to what they vilify "the patriarchy" for supposedly doing?
Kevin, I think Cat already stated that the Patriarchal notion is not necessarily one of men per se.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
I don't think that reaching out to the women in the Balkans as change agents was limited to their self-determination in childbearing, Cat.
It goes deeper than that. See my previous post, 2 up, from 6:13 PM.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 06:35pm PT
And yes, I see I am going for bigger grab here. Vis-à-vis the Balkans and mediation through women.

Primarily what you were doing, Kevin, was trying to argue the deconstruction of the patriarchal model. But again, I think she has already posited that it's more a sociopolitical state of mind than an attribute of man per se.

[edit] Ha ha. Our posts came out at nearly the same time. Good one, Kev. No, I'm just suggesting that we define our terms, notwithstanding your Definition just above.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 06:47pm PT

zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
Hahaha.
You are killing me with those click throughs, Z!

[edit] Even now that I can see the R. Crumb ditties without clicking, you are still killing me with them! Ha ha
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
Roy, I've always had this nebulous belief that "educating women is the way to move a society forward," but I'm not sure what that means practically, or if it is true at all. Maybe this is the same thing you're alluding to, maybe not, I'm really not sure what you're getting at?

Feminism is on a mission to accomplish equal rights for women, in spite of the fact that huge numbers of nearly silent women don't want the kind of equality feminists are pursuing.
I realize there's something horrifically condescending about looking at a group of people and saying, "they don't know they could have it better." It would be the height of arrogance for me to assume that any other woman should aspire to become a neuroscientist who gleefully hikes into the middle of nowhere and sleeps on the ground in order to climb stuff. I suppose it's equally arrogant for me to assume that I know that women would be better off if we all eschewed religion. But I do really believe that until women are able to control their own sexuality/reproductive health, they aren't being afforded a choice at all, and yeah, I do think I know better in that regard: I would fight against the wishes of conservative women if I could make sure their daughters received evidence-based sex education, and if that's imposing on their rights, I'm okay with doing it.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
Let's go get a beer, Kev, Cat,

Kev, you're still trying to deconstruct her feminist model, and I'm trying to ask her why she doesn't use it as a weapon in culture wars at large.

Your task is purely argumentative, Kev, and might actually be accomplished, while mine is a pollyanna kind of fool's errand to charge her with the task of changing the world.

Beer 30, pals!

[edit] Did that explain what I'm getting at, Cat? If you just say yes, then we can agree it's ridiculous, and I'll drop it! Haha.
Roy, I've always had this nebulous belief that "educating women is the way to move a society forward," but I'm not sure what that means practically, or if it is true at all
Yes, Cat, I was alluding to this ^^^
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:14pm PT
IMHO, what this thread needs is a musical interlude

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
Good call! ^^^
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:20pm PT
Z,

Man you are the hit-and-run fiend around here.

A gal has to stay extra frosty not to miss your offerings before you tear them down!
Cracks me up.
cat t.

climber
california
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
Did that explain what I'm getting at, Cat? If you just say yes, then we can agree it's ridiculous, and I'll drop it! Haha.
Ha, yes, I got it! As I said, I don't know if I...believe my own belief about salvation via education? Is it an idea that I formed purely based on stereotypes? Is it a belief I derived from some article I read about forward progress in societies where previously illiterate women are educated? Is it from a sappy inspirational movie? Or is it just true?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
It's all of those things, Cat.
Like I said, I learned it from a woman who did mediation and conflict resolution in the Balkans 25 years ago.

To which her son, a venture capitalist friend of mine, said: Just because they [Conflict resolution people] have a hammer they think everything is a nail.

Here she is:

Merle Lefkoff, PhD:
https://www.upaya.org/people/bio/merle-lefkoff-phd

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Dr. Merle Letkoff is a whole systems change engineer whose practice is devoted to the transformation of traditional diplomatic negotiations through the testing and practice of complex systems thinking, the impact of neuroscience research on the mind and life, and re-enchantment with nature. Letkoff holds a doctorate in political science from Emory University and has been a mediator, facilitator, and leadership trainer in conflict zones around the world.

She believes there's a better way for nations to measure success than GDP, and it's time for the world to reconsider what we value.

Taking her research forward, she and her colleagues train women leaders and grassroots activists to use complexity thinking to allow a sacred space for non-violence, compassion, justice and equity to emerge.
See, Cat? ^^^ I wasn't BS-ing.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
Forget about it, Kev, you brute.

Cat wants to talk to me now. After all ... I'm the one in the white hat!

hahahahahahha!
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
May be Moby
May be Dick

Butt it ain't Moby Dick bein' written here.


Nuthin' to be preserved for posterity, though some of it appears to aspire to Melville's form of compensation

Take my wordz for it

For the less ass_pirational

We can't get no compensation



yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
But women can't play blues with the feeling men can

[Click to View YouTube Video]

In all fairness, Danielle usually plays the bass

zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 08:03pm PT


Stop all this weeping, swallow your pride, you will not die, it's not poison

Hubert preached not only to the choir, but to anyone within earshot

But, just like everyone has to do he shuffled off his mortal coil

YMMV?

L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 19, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
Well, I just finished a delightful dinner with my hubby and thought I'd peek in on this neuron-titillating thread...and what do I find?

Feminism is on a mission to accomplish equal rights for women, in spite of the fact that huge numbers of nearly silent women don't want the kind of equality feminists are pursuing.

So Kevin...do you actually know what the definition of feminism is? I mean, like from a dictionary, not a cartoon?

Never mind--here ya go, from Merriam-Webster:

feminism

noun fem·i·nism \ ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm \

Definition of feminism

1 :the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 :organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

— feminist \ˈfe-mə-nist\ noun or adjective
— feministic \ˌfe-mə-ˈni-stik\ adjective

First Known Use: 1895

FEMINISM Defined for Kids

noun fem·i·nism \ ˈfe-mə-ˌni-zəm \

1 :the belief that women and men should have equal rights and opportunities
2 :organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests


That's it. Simple, isn't it. Equal rights and opportunities.

Feminism is the belief that women and men should have equal rights and opportunities.

You, however, appear to use the word as a smoking gun with rounds still chambered, and you point it at any woman (or man, for that matter) who advances the thought of equality of the sexes.

My heart tells me that you've perhaps gone through a difficult period where relationships are concerned, and right now you're reacting from that in a way you normally would not. But I don't know you in the slightest, and can only guess at your motivations.

What I'd like to ask you though is this:

How can you, a father of a 13 year old daughter, a beautiful, athletic girl who cartwheels through the fields of flowers, how can you NOT be a feminist?

How can you not want for your daughter all the liberties and opportunities and advantageous circumstances that generations of women (and some men) have fought so hard for?

How can you claim to know what "feminism" truly is and not thank the stars above that your little girl is growing up in an age where her choices are so unlimited compared to even 10 years ago?

Speaking from the memory of a 12 year old, my father wanted the world for me, and he tried his best to give it to me. He filled me with dreams of success and ignited my desire for adventure, and he repeatedly told me I could do and be anything I wanted. Anything.

You seem like the sort of man who would want as much for his own daughter.

But I don't really know you, so perhaps I'm mistaken.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 08:44pm PT
L,

Did you by any chance follow the tangential issue which I was raising concerning empowering women, which is part of the model which Merle Lefkoff uses in her work?

She's a fascinating woman.

It's in the post on the previous page: Sep 19, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
Take a look at her Ted talk.

I think if you look at her training and efforts and philosophy and approach, it's like ecofeminism 3.0.

A quick excerpt:
Taking her research forward, she and her colleagues train women leaders and grassroots activists to use complexity thinking to allow a sacred space for non-violence, compassion, justice and equity to emerge.

It may not be as pressing as arguing with Kevin ... But ...
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 19, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
I think if you look at her training and efforts and philosophy and approach, it's like ecofeminism 3.0.

She's definitely motivating. (The BW 3.0 website still looks like it's under construction though.)

"Bretton Woods 3.0"...who knew? The great thing is that these sort of talks and ideas are springing up all over the world.

The word "Ecofeminism" is interesting. Not sure how to get my head around it.

What's your take?

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 09:46pm PT
My take is that it is fairly removed from third wave feminism and the current dustup about PC going a bit over-the-top in our culture. As a term, it may be out of use, but if you read the following you'll see there's historically, quite a bit of rolling up the shirt sleeves and really getting things done:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofeminism

Ecofeminism relates, probably in a foundational way, to the idea I broached a couple pages back, where I was talking about conflict resolution and the natural interests of women.

Here's a repost that gives a brief on my understanding:
I know a woman [Merle Lefkoff] who did mediation and conflict resolution in the Balkans about 25 years ago. She told me that the strongest method of outreach was to work with the women, because as child bearers and family builders, they were the better people to reach out to as change agents, in that in many ways, it's men that are imbued with the tendency toward retaliation and war and that endless cycle of aggression.

It's the women who are more likely to seek change and to rebuild. If anybody remembers what Werner said a while back, "when the men fail, the women start leading".

Another example that has always held strong within me comes from a novel by Jon Fowles called The Magus. In it, he describes war as essentially a total breakdown by men of an understanding of relationship; of relationship to self, to partner, to family, to environment, and to everything that matters.

So you go for the women when you want that kind of productive change!

Read up on it and then perhaps we can discuss?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 19, 2017 - 10:07pm PT
And just so you know, L, I'm talking about wartime conflict resolution that Merle was involved in. Not garden-variety domestic violence, or neighbors haggling about barking dogs or whatever:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars

I think what's missing in my point here is that Merle probably isn't trotting herself out as a feminist, but what she is doing is so part and parcel to the mission of the early ecofeminist movement, that it's a relevant topic here.

I know Bretton Woods 3.0 sounds removed, but if you read her bio, and look at the Ted talk again, I don't think it is. It's just that she's expanded her tools so much beyond basic feminism. But I'm saying what she is doing essentially grew out of ecofeminist thought, or something like it.

https://www.upaya.org/people/bio/merle-lefkoff-phd

 I'm hitting the sack. Perhaps I will find you on this thread tomorrow?
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 19, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
L-
That's it. Simple, isn't it. Equal rights and opportunities.

Totally.

Everyone should be equally obligated to register with the selective service and sent off to die as cannon fodder in meaningless conflicts. But they aren't. Why is that?

One (female) authors opinion...


6 Reasons Women Shouldn't Register For Selective Service

AP Photo/John Bazemore
ByAMANDA PRESTIGIACOMO
@amandapresto
February 12, 2016
Last week, four U.S. military leaders voiced their support for women registering for Selective Service at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing. Since women are now allowed in combat and such endorsements were made, the issue has made its way to the forefront in the media, even rearing its head in the latest Republican Presidential debate.

Unfortunately, many have backed this idea—on both sides of the aisle. But here’s the truth: Women registering for Selective Service is an all-around bad idea any way you slice it. This would be damaging to both our servicemen and servicewomen and would be morally reprehensible. Not to mention, the entire proposal is a stunt to appease the politically correct “social justice” agenda lauded by liberal elites who in no way have the best interest of women or our country in mind.

Here are the top six reasons, in no particular order, why women shouldn’t register for Selective Service:

1. This will create a weaker military where both servicemen and servicewomen pay the price in precious blood, because YES, women are different than men physically.

As mentioned before, combat roles are already open to women, but of course, if women registered for Selective Service and a draft was in fact implemented, the number of females on the military front lines could skyrocket (currently women only comprise about 14 percent of the military overall). This would weaken our forces and unnecessarily cost both male and female blood.

The obvious reason being: men are more equipped physically than women on the battle field. Yes, men are generally stronger than women, by a lot. This is not only borne out through every piece of anecdotal evidence ever, but also through biological studies.

Further, a study from “The Marine Corps Force Integration Plan” confirmed that this translated to the military, finding that “a mixed-gender unit was injured twice as often as an all-male unit, was less accurate with infantry weapons, and was less efficient at removing wounded troops from the battlefield.”

Here’s exactly what the study found:

Overall: All-male squads, teams and crews demonstrated higher performance levels on 69% of tasks evaluated (93 of 134) as compared to gender-integrated squads, teams and crews. Gender-integrated teams performed better than their all-male counterparts on (2) events.

Speed All-male squads, regardless of infantry MOS [Military Occupational Specialty], were faster than the gender-integrated squads in each tactical movement. The differences were more pronounced in infantry crew-served weapons specialties that carried the assault load plus the additional weight of crew-served weapons and ammunition.

Lethality: All-male 0311 (rifleman) infantry squads had better accuracy compared to gender-integrated squads. There was a notable difference between genders for every individual weapons system (i.e. M4, M27, and M203) within the 0311 squads, except for the probability of hit & near miss with the M4.

Male provisional infantry (those with no formal 03xx school training) had higher hit percentages than the 0311 (school trained) females: M4: 44% vs 28%, M27: 38% vs 25%, M16A4w/M203: 26% vs 15%.

All-male infantry crew-served weapons teams engaged targets quicker and registered more hits on target as compared to gender-integrated infantry crew-served weapons teams, with the exception of M2 accuracy.

All-male squads, teams and crews and gender-integrated squads, teams, and crews had a noticeable difference in their performance of the basic combat tasks of negotiating obstacles and evacuating casualties.

Bottom line, a weaker military would cost lives and injuries. Creating a weaker military purposefully all so liberal elites can pat themselves on the back would be grotesque.

2. All positions of the military are currently open to women; mandating military conscription will only force unwilling female participants, not advance “equality” as suggested.

As of December, all positions, including combat roles, within the military are open for women who meet the requirements. Thus, if a woman would like to serve her country in any role at all, and is capable, she can. With no restrictions on access, mandating women to register for Selective Service would, again, only force unwilling participants in the name of “equality.”​

3. Daughters, sisters and wives serving will be targeted.

America has been engaged in a war in the Middle East for over a decade, and as much as the left denies it, our enemies' cultures are vastly inferior to that of the West. Simply taking a look at how women are treated would clear this up. Because this is true, imagining what would be done to a woman who is captured is completely terrifying. And to pretend that barbaric groups like ISIS and Boko Haram—who have cut off the heads of Christian children and captured Nigerian school girls—would not specifically target women is truly moronic. Women will be targeted and men will risk their lives at all costs to save women because this is America.

Not only would it be irresponsible to put a woman, and the men who would subsequently fight for her, in such obvious risk would be morally repugnant.

4. Standards will be lowered.

As mentioned above, women are generally physically weaker than men. If/when huge numbers of women are in the military (if the draft were to be implemented) you can bet physical standards will be lowered in the name of group justice. Here’s why: the same “social justice warriors” who are pushing women to register for Selective Service will be there counting every promotion and measuring enrollment of women in all positions, and when the same number of women aren’t promoted as men in combat, or unequal percentages of gender hold a position, the "warriors" will "fix" this "inequality" by implementing quotas and lowering standards. (By the way, female firefighters have already been admitted even though they have failed the fitness test and women in the police force already have lower physical standards than men.)

The truth is, the military already has quotas for women in the military, they are called "gender diversity metrics." Also, women already get promoted in the military at a rate greater than or equal to men and there is no way that's not inflated for reasons of "equality." Thus, this idea that standards will in fact be lowered becomes all the more plausible. Again, lowering standards across the board (which is more likely to happen, because “equality”), would only weaken our military.

5. A majority of women oppose a mandate for women to register for Selective Service.

According to a Rasmussen survey, only 38 percent of women agreed that women should register for Selective Service. While this is already a low number, it is likely inflated for two reason: one, the report surveyed women of all ages and not women who would potentially be mandated to serve if said draft were to be implemented, and two, the survey was taken earlier this month, a time when the draft was (and still is) dormant. Arguably, if women who were liable to the mandate were exclusively surveyed, or if this survey was taken at a time when the draft was active and thus more of a reality, the already low 38 percent of women in favor of the mandated would be even lower.

Clearly, mandating women to register for Selective Service would force women to participate in something they overwhelmingly reject.

6. It's morally reprehensible.

Obviously, this notion that fixing mythical "inequality" trumps safety of both men and women is morally reprehensible. To sum it up in one line from a man who served this fine country: “The moral point that a country which sends its wives, mothers, sisters, and daughters into the meat grinder of combat has preemptively surrendered a vital portion of its own humanity.”

For some more thoughts, read Matt Walsh’s take on the moral deficiencies involved with women registering for Selective Service here.
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 19, 2017 - 10:40pm PT
TW-

My take - every INDIVIDUAL in the world is unique. Regardless of sex, color, socioeconomic status. Some people are incredibly strong and competent. Some are just zombies that are only alive because they have been coddled their whole lives.
I know a 5' 1" tall chick that is a framer in Fairbanks, AK. Year round. The turnover on her crew is ridiculous. She's been at it for 7 years, summer and winter. ( 4 hours of light, -40f). She's also a pretty good climber. Most dudes I know can't keep up with her.
That being said, stereotypes exist for a reason.
I give Asian ladies driving minivans a very wide berth.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 10:48pm PT
When Male Ducks Hang Out Together Their Dicks Get Longer

Is this the right thread for this.

https://gizmodo.com/when-male-ducks-hang-out-together-their-dicks-get-longe-1818558698
nah000

climber
now/here
Sep 19, 2017 - 11:48pm PT
The Warbler wrote: Until The Olympic Games are played on a genderless field, and women win in competition there in equal numbers to men, none of your ramblings matter where my basic premise is concerned.

if that’s now your only premise, then there has never been a point for us to discuss.

You have no evidence that women can match men athletically, consistently.

of course not. because it doesn’t exist. and i’ve already argued in almost every response to you that there are likely definitional reasons [namely testosterone] as to why this generally is. that said i would never tell my daughter what she was or wasn't capable of. not because i was trying to be politically correct or because i actually thought she might be able to flap her arms hard enough that she could fly: rather because it ain't my job to define another person's potential... that is for them to figure out.

All that's left to debate is the "tone" of the discussion, and what Is or isn't sexism, and that's all purely a matter of opinion - there really are no facts involved.

i’ve explained how a bunch of your verbiage is factually incorrect. shIt, i even drew graphs at one point.

sorry, TW, this ain’t the foxnews or huffingtonpost discussion board. while much of the world is subjective, there are things that are objective facts. one of those is that when you get two distributions that overlap in the way that male and female distributions overlap on almost every ability...

then the saying that men are therefore different than women based on those distributions is at least incomplete and therefore in general consciously or unconsciously misleading.

it might make a nice click bait headline. and it might make good troll bait for forum discussion. but it is not a complete telling of the facts.

you’ve done this repeatedly and i’ve called you on it.

you say i’m worried about “tone”.

nah, i’m pointing out your factual inaccuracies.

just like I only skimmed your hero's manifesto.

cool. actually it’s not really cool, as i do appreciate your tenacity, and i’ve read all of your recent and repeated offerings to this board, so i figured you’d give me the same courtesy even if my infrequent posts due tend towards the lengthy… i guess on this topic, i’ll respect your wishes and accept that you and i are at the end of the road. i look forward to discussing something more mutually interesting and less divisive like climbing or building another day. seriously: peace.



DanaB wrote: I thought those posts were poorly thought out, had many, many logical inconsistencies, and were weak and unconvincing.

let’s hear them, then… while i’m sure a screed written at one in the morning could have been more convincing and better thought out, i am genuinely curious as to what my “many, many” logical errors were...

or are you just a drive by shooter, too chicken to really step up to the plate?



so that i'm clear with both the contributors and the lurkers: yeah, i’ve got passion [in general, ha!, but specifically] about this. yeah i’m going to come at this hard. but that doesn’t mean i think i’m infallible. i come from an arts school of thought where cultural truth, if there is or can be one!, can only be had through conversation…

so in all sincerity… come at me bro/sis… :)

even you bearbreeder… [the irony that he is on this thread where a bunch of (apparent) white folk are saying things like third wave feminism goes too far - when third wave feminism is often considered to be something that looks primarily to expand previous versions of feminism to include intersectionality between womens rights, and the rights of people of colour and trans folks - is… shall we say… interesting]

because ultimately my ideas aren’t sacred: if you don’t like these… i’ve got others. :)

the worst thing that’ll happen to me is i’ll have to apologize, like i had to once with SC seagoat when i went on temporary and unnecessary tilt at her one time.

that said, i ain’t giving up on these ideas unless i can be convinced and/or i can be shown my blind spots. which is why this board is one of the few online places i engage with. contrary to somes belief it’s not a complete! echo chamber and there truly are [sometimes] a variety of voices articulating themselves here.

that said, i haven’t seen any real engaging with what i said in the last post. just more doubling down on things i’ve already said i agreed with while i acting like i’m being contradicted… unless i missed it there hasn’t been any real engaging with the points i made regarding how some of those things we do agree upon, were being said.



and Tarbuster: man, i say this with sincerity, cause i love your presence on this board [and so while we’ve never met, it’d be a pleasure and an honour to buy you a beer someday]. but if i hear you second hand report the thoughts of the women in your life, based on your telling of what is happening on this board, i think i’ll be inspired to devote my life's energy to working on developing a teleporting computer solely so i can throw a book at my screen and it’ll pop out of your screen and smack you in the face… :) [it’s ok it’ll be a paperback…]

shIt, i bet you if you explained to me what The Warbler was saying, i’d agree with him too…



F wrote: Everyone should be equally obligated to register with the selective service and sent off to die as cannon fodder in meaningless conflicts. But they aren't. Why is that?

because this society is sexist. this society is sexist towards men and women.

a society that is based on purported freedom and then conscripts people is not what it purports to be.

if you have to conscript people to fight for the system… then, the system is already dead and held up only by violence, machines and the already dead.

to hold up the opposite sexism, in this case the control of men with regards to the military, is to miss the point. from my perspective that point is:



we have systems of enslavement. not one. but plural.

and they are not unidirectional just towards women. we enslave each other with a regularity and violence that is shocking. the naked lunch is as relevant today as it was almost sixty years ago.

we [still] need feminism.

but among many other movements, we also need an actual menism. [and before you assume i’m referring to what menism means today please read and understand the next line]

we need an actual menism that is not just a reaction against something and so is not just a teenage boys manifestation of anti-feminism.



finally, TW you said earlier that you like fact based discussion.

if you’re serious, while i accept you and i are done, L has stepped up to the plate with a whole list of incredibly important questions. some of them have intuitively perplexed me as well, and so i appreciated her putting words to some of what i felt and a bunch of what i hadn’t even considered…

they are, imo, not just argumentative and are so important to the conversation at hand, that i’m going to post them again:

How can you, a father of a 13 year old daughter, a beautiful, athletic girl who cartwheels through the fields of flowers, how can you NOT be a feminist?

How can you not want for your daughter all the liberties and opportunities and advantageous circumstances that generations of women (and some men) have fought so hard for?

How can you claim to know what "feminism" truly is and not thank the stars above that your little girl is growing up in an age where her choices are so unlimited compared to even 10 years ago?

Speaking from the memory of a 12 year old, my father wanted the world for me, and he tried his best to give it to me. He filled me with dreams of success and ignited my desire for adventure, and he repeatedly told me I could do and be anything I wanted. Anything.

You seem like the sort of man who would want as much for his own daughter. 



i have thought before, that while you may never see my perspective on some of this, that i have no doubt that if your daughter is even half the stubborn chip off the ole block that you are, that she’s going to teach you many, many great things. and i mean that with nothing but good intentions...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 04:54am PT
^^^
Yes, inquiring minds here ... and as your friends and confidants, L, we are on a need to know basis!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 04:58am PT
I like you too, Nah000, no question about that!

Nah000 wrote to moi:
and Tarbuster: man, i say this with sincerity, cause i love your presence on this board [and so while we’ve never met, it’d be a pleasure and an honour to buy you a beer someday]. but if i hear you second hand report the thoughts of the women in your life, based on your telling of what is happening on this board, i think i’ll be inspired to devote my life's energy to working on developing a teleporting computer solely so i can throw a book at my screen and it’ll pop out of your screen and smack you in the face… :) [it’s ok it’ll be a paperback…]

Well, I don't see why my reflection of other women's perspectives is such a problem. I just see a dearth of them here, so I try to bring more onboard. Is that so wrong? Is it such a fool's errand?

And besides, regarding the books, instead of slapping me in the face with them, why don't you just shoot me some titles?


And to this one:
shIt, i bet you if you explained to me what The Warbler was saying, i’d agree with him too…

Actually, I imagine you might, if it were offered as a blind sampling of opinion, as opposed to that of his in particular, with which you've had much history. Though I think he's done a fine job explaining himself.

I find many here to be missing the simplicity of Kevin's point. That said, I think he and Cat got really close to unraveling one of his complaints about feminism at large, and from my perspective, she should have hung in there with him just a bit longer.

Now, regarding Third-wave feminism, I'm not sure Warbler is leveraging that term accurately.

The way he's been using it, to me, he just means a type of feminism that overreaches in terms of its criticality of men, which is more descriptive of some observable aspects of the current cultural narrative, or trends concerning how Feminism is practiced, by some, than it is about Third-wave feminism per se.

Heck, in looking at all these definitions (modalities, really, of which there are many) of feminism extant, I am no doubt, a feminist, of one stripe or another. Ideologically, I support women's causes. To Warbler's point, and to the degree that I agree with him, I think any movement has to be self-critical and self-reflective, if not, it risks falling into fanaticism. And to clarify, it's not the movement that has to be self-critical, but those who fly under its banner.

To repeat: what I just said about self-criticality and self-reflection cannot be leveled at feminism on the whole, or even at Third-wave feminism in particular. Again, it's really more a criticism of current behavioral trends in our culture, concerning the flawed execution of feminist principles, than it is of those specific feminist ideologies, or the many, many good people who champion them smartly and get the work done that needs to be done.

(If there are women who are currently angered about a proposed patriarchal oppression (which may indicate a kind of paternalistic male-ness in the greater sociopolitical and socioeconomic paradigm, as opposed to overtly all males), and it has spurred them into action to do good, even if the underlying anger is somehow misdirected or unfounded, then so be it. God knows they've had cause in the not-so-distant past, and currently, still have cause in some regions)

Third-wave feminism is actually quite complicated to understand, (I just read the entire Wikipedia entry on Third-wave feminism) and not nearly as grounded in world problems and solutions as is Ecofeminism. Not to say, upon careful examination of third wave feminism, that it doesn't broach meaningful and important themes. It does, in my opinion.


Note, one must read the entirety of these entries:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofeminism

..............................

 I don't think I can do any better than that regarding these topics.

..............................

 Yet, I still would like to have the tangential discussion with L, concerning my last two posts to her.

L?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 20, 2017 - 05:41am PT
Women don't play blues with the feeling the great male blues players do

You use Stevie Ray Vaughn as an example? You're kidding, right? He's a great technician, for sure, but as a musician he couldn't carry Elizabeth Cotten's jockstrap.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 20, 2017 - 07:32am PT
A Stevie Ray Vaughn simulation? That's perfect. That's what he was, a simulation of a bluesman.

Here's the real thing:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 08:02am PT
Back in the old old days of Camp 4 long before all this modern st00pid sterile sh!t going on now there.

Deep in the winter, when no one was around period,

Walkin past that old far in the back of Camp 4 wooden outhouse that's gone now,

you'll hear Warbler playing the blues deep into the night form inside there .....
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Sep 20, 2017 - 08:14am PT
My bad Warbler. Danielle's brother was on guitar and she was on bass (she did win a Blues Music Award one year for her bass playing and the album with that song won album of the year). Love that version. I find it remarkable you just couldn't groove on it and felt compelled to "prove" Stevie Ray is "better" and you are more qualified than others to decide what real feeling is when it comes to playing the blues. Whatever.
WBraun

climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 08:30am PT
Merry led every pitch of Black Primo with no falls ....
WBraun

climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 08:39am PT
I had to batman the rope on the Black Primo crux.

Merry also led all the crux pitches on Marys Tears/Crucifix, did Freestone 5 times, lead all the pitches on Astroman, and ain't no feminist .....
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Sep 20, 2017 - 08:56am PT
So much to respond to!

The Taco Blues Project
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1663042&tn=440





I have a six disc player,(aging now it's from '04) I don't switch out the discs anymore

Discs in no particular order but as they are loaded
1) Crosby, Stills,Nash &Young - De Ja vue
2) Stevie Ray 'Sky's Crying' a live compilation
3)&(4) some old live dead shows
5)live Bob Marley
6)Counting Crows


I love women for the potential

I love that if you think about (ripped off from the aging actress,Betty White)

We should call bad ass climbers 'Pussey's'
And not say that they have 'Ballz'
'cause those velvet envelopes can take a pounding
& Come back Stronger and still give life
a fact. . . that Balls only contributed to
& they live despised; in a sack
Exposed to tragedy swing there like that


Edit: this page was inspirational - Certainly the Blues connection

the start is well protectable 5.8 that follows twin cracks
the crux (.10c, pictured below) is the crunched corner, moving left
It favors a shorter stature The next roof system!? Not so much!

It is a an all time 6star classic



ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Sep 20, 2017 - 09:58am PT
Hey Kevin,
That is pretty effin cool, about your blues roots, your great great grandfather and the Camp 4 outhouse festival. Still playing?

Arne
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 20, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
F -- Everyone should be equally obligated to register with the selective service and sent off to die as cannon fodder in meaningless conflicts. But they aren't. Why is that?

OK F, let's DO compare apples to orangutans, shall we?

First off, apples are a fruit without hair. Orangutans are not a fruit and.......er.....wait a minute.

Ya ever heard of a little country called ISRAEL?

Two years of conscripted service for every Israeli citizen over the age of 18, and that means men AND women. So there you have it. You stand corrected.

Israel has one of the best (if not THE best) military machines in the world. And they make their women fight just like their men. Why is that, do ya think? Or don't you?

And a very good friend of mine has a 26 year old daughter who's part of an elite female combat team who, yes indeed, go out and KILL THE ENEMY. Regularly. From close range...not just lobbing bombs at them from over yonder.

Now Nah000 does a very good job of explaining why the whole conscription/war machine thing is detestable and part of the unsustainable patriarchy that currently controls the nations of the world. I couldn't agree with him more.

Women fighting in wars makes no sense to me. But then, neither does men fighting in wars.

But you wanted to compare apples to orangutans, so there you have it. Crystal?




Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Sep 20, 2017 - 12:48pm PT
yes indeed, go out and KILL THE ENEMY. Regularly.

Hella cool, pun intended
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Sep 20, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
L-thinks she has the smoking gun with the Israelis then uses mockery to combat Kevin's defense of his own viewpoints.

Let me guess L, I think the apple represents "sugar and spice and everything nice" but I'm having trouble with the hairy creature. Is that us? Good God why didn't you say so?

Kevin pinks back with another touché and on and on we go.

Arne
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 20, 2017 - 01:16pm PT
L is for loose with 'em

Back it up babe

Hahaha Kevin! You believe everything you read???

I'm just quoting my friend, who's daughter is actually in the military. After watching House of Cards recently, I just can't put too much validity in newspapers these days.

Of course, that wasn't my point, and you know it. F said women weren't being drafted and he was incorrect. So nah-nah-nah!

Speaking of knowing, I wish I knew you as a person, like I know several of my climbing buddies. Then I'd probably recognize when you're joking, trolling, stirring the pot or actually being real. But it's the Internet, and you like to play poker, so there it is.

However...

The idea of some climber dude sitting in an outhouse for hours on end, strumming his guitar to the owls and the bears and the nighttime sky, for no other reason than the joy it brought to his being...well...that strikes a chord deep inside.

Perhaps you're not such a bad guy after all. ;-)
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 01:17pm PT
L-thinks she has the smoking gun with the Israelis then uses mockery to combat Kevin's defense of his own viewpoints.

Let me guess L, I think the apple represents "sugar and spice and everything nice" but I'm having trouble with the hairy creature. Is that us? Good God why didn't you say so?

Kevin pinks back with another tuohé and on and on we go.

But, L is hella clever with her wordplay, so, gets style points for entertainment value!
... keeps the merry-go-round spinning, that's for sure.
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 20, 2017 - 01:20pm PT
L-thinks she has the smoking gun with the Israelis then uses mockery to combat Kevin's defense of his own viewpoints.

Let me guess L, I think the apple represents "sugar and spice and everything nice" but I'm having trouble with the hairy creature. Is that us? Good God why didn't you say so?

Boy, did you feel the wooooosh as that went over your head, Arne?

Do you have any hair left?

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 20, 2017 - 01:48pm PT
There are an increasing number of women that are tougher than the average man. As far as climbing as a sport goes, I would not be surprised women may be establishing the sport route grade breakthroughs and edging out the men within a half a decade.

Without testosterone supplements, 3 out of my six daughters are the main bread winners in their households. The other 3 are young(18,19 and 21) and we will see what they do.

My daughter Rose(26) nailed off a 2800 square foot 6/12 pitch roof when she was 14. She carried and swung half the sheets of ply up when we were sheeting it.

She is a CNA pursuing nursing, has 2 children. The subs noticed how hard a worker she is and still ask me how is she doing. A couple Saturdays ago she helped me do some landscaping at my house during a heat wave, it was like old times.

Don't be intimidated men, don't get left in the dust, just woman up. :)
WBraun

climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 01:57pm PT
Almost think it had hot water


No hot water, only hot-headed macho sexist and non-Politically Correct snowflake climbers like us :-)

Muuwahahahhaa .......
F

climber
away from the ground
Sep 20, 2017 - 02:01pm PT
L- I was specifically referencing the Selective Service in 'Murica, supposedly the most progressive nation in the universe. Not apples, or Israel, or red assed baboons.
Thanks for the emotionally charged response.
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 20, 2017 - 02:04pm PT
eKat
climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 02:31am PT

Say what, sista?

YOU GOT MARRIED?

Tell all!

:-)


Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 04:54am PT

^^^
Yes, inquiring minds here ... and as your friends and confidants, L, we are on a need to know basis!

Kath and Roy--

I don't want to bore folks or derail The Warbler's fine thread, so I'll post up in the Who Are You People Anyway thread.

Thanks for asking. It's good to see you two are still kickin' it!


c wilmot

climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California

Sep 20, 2017 - 01:48pm PT
There are an increasing number of women that are tougher than the average man.

While not a bad thing per se- how is this different than males who pursue the same ego driven mindset of being "tough"?
Part of the feminist message is that men are also victims of the patriarchal mindset that they need to be "tough" individuals- is it not?

I would question your motives for being "tough" if they have to do with an attitude of proving yourself to men.

That kind of thinking is a slippery slope to injury or worse.

Something many males realize in the pursuit of being "tough"

Myself included.

Cheers
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 20, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
Thanks for the emotionally charged response.

F--It was not meant to be emotionally charged, but more tongue-in-cheek. I mean, c'mon, look at that cute orangutan, would ya? He made me laugh...I was hoping you'd chuckle, too.

And I didn't realize you were being specific to America, as I think "feminism" is a worldwide issue, particularly if you're speaking of the military.

I also think that just saying the word "feminism" influences peoples perceptions in a way that isn't necessarily the reality of the situation.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 20, 2017 - 02:17pm PT
How do you figure that when they're almost twenty years behind in cutting edge sport today?

The rate at which women are diminishing that distance.
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 20, 2017 - 02:35pm PT
It makes sense to me and fits nicely into my sexist worldview, if you so want to shake me out of that

Back it up babe

Btw It wasn't an outhouse

Concrete floor, about 12x15', 3 stalls, several windows, electricity, a big sink, big radiator heater, and as clean as can be. Smelled like Lysol with a capital L

Literally nobody but me and a few buddies used it tor months in the wintertime, and the NPS cleaned it weekly.

Sorry Kevin, I've no intention of trying to change your sexist worldview. It's your worldview, after all, and you get to live with it regardless of how miserable or happy it makes you.

But I will clarify that I wasn't thinking "stinky outhouse" when I mentioned your nocturnal guitar playing. Interesting that you would jump to that conclusion and a need to defend yourself...but that's what a sexist worldview might get you, eh?

Nope, I was just remarking on the poignancy of the scene...the guitar playing for the sheer joy of it...alone at night in that amazing Valley.

Never mind. It's not worth explaining.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 20, 2017 - 02:45pm PT

So are you saying the point of having women in sports and the workforce is to attract more men to sports and the workforce?
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Sep 20, 2017 - 03:03pm PT
//Boy, did you feel the wooooosh as that went over your head, Arne?
Do you have any hair left?//

No actually I don't. Male baldness syndrome hit me many years ago and kinda scarred me a bit when competing with all the hunks for the pretty girl at the party. I know that's sexist but that's the way my biology and ego worked.

But I think you and Kevin should go out climbing together. This is a terrible way to hash it out and understand each other's perspectives.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
This is a terrible way to hash it out and understand each other's perspectives.
Nah,
Brinksmanship for its own sake at this point: and popcorn worthy!
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 20, 2017 - 03:24pm PT
No actually I don't. Male baldness syndrome hit me many years ago and kinda scarred me a bit when competing with all the hunks for the pretty girl at the party. I know that's sexist but that's the way my biology and ego worked.

Arne Duuuuude--are you kiddin' me?????

Then your ego did you a great disservice.

The SEXIEST men at the parties now are all bald, or if not, then they're shaving their heads so they can pretend to be bald. Word!

Not just parties either...heck, they're all over the place. It started with Yul Brynner and it's only been getting better. I just did a 4 day conference where the presenter was bald. I could barely think straight.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
She's toast, Kevin.

You got too close to the inner sanctum.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 03:43pm PT
And then I tried to keep her here with that deep level ecofeminist change agent stuff ...

Which, frankly, is just too conversational for most.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 20, 2017 - 03:46pm PT
I like to read Breitbart for other wrong opinions :-)

I recently read a poster who said that Climate change scientists had just admitted that they were wrong about the catastrophic effects of global warming. No source or anything - I think they made it up.

But like the scientists went into the future and saw what happened in the future and realized that their predictions about what was going to happen in the future were wrong. I liked that! They didn't believe the scientists when they originally made their prediction, but the poster did believe them when they changed the prediction to match the poster's personally biased belief.

Sure, women will never climb as hard as men. I just know stuff too. How marvelous. I must be a boy.

There's a genetic/physical component to it, and there's an environmental/social/learned component to it. If you think you've got that stuff all figured out, and a woman's place really is in the kitchen, or whatever, ok, good for you.

For you. Maybe blacks really are 13 times worse than whites at creating wealth, because that doesn't seem to be changing any time soon either.

Humans believe stuff for the reasons that humans believe stuff. OK ...
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 20, 2017 - 03:47pm PT
I am commanding all of you on this thread to click this link and drop some coin in the bucket. Please!

So of course I'm gonna do what you ask, DMT, cause you asked so nicely...and then I got this response....from a Marine...

To whom it may concern I wish I could shake your hand, and give you a hug to show the proper appreciation.

And now I've got a lump in my throat and blurry vision.
Thank you, buddy.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
Well, ah, we all know who here is going to play Harry Callahan.

(hint: plays a mean blues guitar)

...

But, Ms. Gray?

(hint: Nah000)

...

And, Officer Moore?

(hint: CAT)

VVV

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Ms. Gray:
And I'd like to tell you, inspector, it is the mayor's intention that this department be brought more into line with the … mainstream of 20th century thought.

Harry Callahan:
Just how did the figure to do that … Missus Gray?

Ms. Gray:
Well, for … for one thing his honor intends to, ah, broaden the areas of participation for Women in the police force.

Harry Callahan:
Well that sounds very stylish.

Ms. Gray, removing her glasses in a display of authoritarian sternness:
I think he also said something about, ah, winnowing the Neanderthals out of the department.
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 20, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
When Male Ducks Hang Out Together Their Dicks Get Longer

zBrown--That study had me laughing my head off.
And its relevancy to this thread is beyond amazing.
Custom fit.
Great post.
Thanks for the humor.

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
I read that Duck Dick study.

And the pictures so totally grossed me out!
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 05:20pm PT
Warbler and e(L)ektra ...

Meeting for a blind date ... and a friendly chat outside the downtown climbing gym:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Tarbuster on the swing set, in the light blue blouse.
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 20, 2017 - 05:40pm PT
Oh god, I almost wet my pants, Tarbuster!
ionlyski

Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
Sep 20, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
**Arne Duuuuude--are you kiddin' me?????

Then your ego did you a great disservice.

The SEXIEST men at the parties now are all bald**


Maybe now, but not so much in the early 70's :
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 20, 2017 - 08:36pm PT
L say:
Oh god, I almost wet my pants, Tarbuster!

Luck you! (I pooped mine)
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Sep 21, 2017 - 06:27am PT
What I've observed after watching several seasons of Naked and Afraid:

Going in, men are most likely to boast about there strength and prowess while disparaging their female partner.

By day 11, men are most likely to be in a fetal position, in tears with the female partner yelling at them to go collect firewood.

This is very scientific by the way...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 21, 2017 - 02:54pm PT
It might be, Kevin, that overall, you are paddling your raft of objectivity too far out into emotional waters here.

It's one of the things I admire in you, especially where historicity in climbing is concerned, namely, that you strive for objectivity. (See Stonemasters book thread).

What is feminism without a patriarchal society?

I'd like to hear the answer to your assertion, but I don't imagine it's going to happen on a forum like this. Wrong venue. My theory is, that in these discussion forums, people are too caught up in the adrenaline of argumentation.

Could be, that through continuing education, women's studies, UCSD, you'll find someone with the detachment and critical thinking skills to respond to your assertion. Though, I'm guessing, whether that patriarchy exists is probably not an on or off switch sort of question.

That said, I just pulled these quotations from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

Feminist theory defines patriarchy as an unjust social system that enforces gender roles and is oppressive to both men and women
....
Prior to the widespread use of "patriarchy", feminists used the terms "male chauvinism" and "sexism" to refer roughly to the same phenomenon.[41] Author bell hooks argues that the new term identifies the ideological system itself (that men are inherently dominant or superior to women) that can be believed and acted upon by either men or women, whereas the earlier terms imply only men act as oppressors of women. This statement is critical in understanding the beliefs of the vast majority of feminists; believing and/or preaching otherwise only adds to the oppression of the patriarchy, and extends the length of its domain.
...
The idea that patriarchy is natural has, however, come under attack from many sociologists, explaining that patriarchy evolved due to historical, rather than biological, conditions. In technologically simple societies, men's greater physical strength and women's common experience of pregnancy combined together to sustain patriarchy.[43] Gradually, technological advances, especially industrial machinery, diminished the primacy of physical strength in everyday life. Similarly, contraception has given women control over their reproductive cycle.[citation needed]
...
The term patriarchy is often misused loosely to stand for "male domination", while the more rigorous definition lies with the literal interpretation: "the rule of the father".[62] So some people believe patriarchy does not refer to a simple binary pattern of male power over women, but power exerted more complexly by age as well as gender, and by older men over women, children, and younger men. Some of these younger men may inherit and therefore have a stake in continuing these conventions. Others may rebel.[63][64]

But I doubt a few quotes really answers the call. The Wikipedia entry is lengthy and complicated.

And I tried to incorporate a functional interpretation of patriarchy into my post here, but that doesn't really mean I know what I'm talking about:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=3000669&msg=3012653#msg3012653

...........

Anyhow, maybe I just need to get out of the way and wait and see what kind of response you get to your post just above.

And perhaps Cat will jump back in?



Happy sailing!
Roy
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 21, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
Take that last train to Rolling Fork and I'll meet you at the station.


i cannot move my fingers are all in a knot
-Leon Knotsky




Don't put on any airs when you're down on Rue Morgue Avenue
They got some hungry women there and they really make a mess outta you



Apparently, nobody knows (or they're not saying) just how much Herman Melville was paid per word, but I would surmise that it was more than than a lot of those old bluzmen.

you get what you're paid for
-Johnny D'Conqueroo


My pistol may snap, my mojo is frail
But i rub my root, my luck will never fail
When i rub my root, my John the Conquer root
Aww, you know there ain't nothin' she can do, Lord,
I rub my John the Conquer root

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Who's on sax, you say?

the October 1964 session features J.T. Brown (may or may not have been my grandpa) on sax and clarinet on "Short Dress Woman" and "My John the Conqueror Root"
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 21, 2017 - 06:06pm PT
So Warbler, you take your cues from Jizzy Spunkbubbles?
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 21, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
Gwon, dust my broom
-J.T. (may or may not be my grandpa) Brown


L to R: Homesick James, J. T. Brown, Elmore James

Get on or off the bus, but don't stand in the crossroads!


[Click to View YouTube Video]

What more can I say?

А еще говорят что белый блюз хуже черного. Ерунда главное КТО его исполняет.

^Rough translation: "neither J.T. nor Homesick even surfed. did they?"
DanaB

climber
CT
Sep 21, 2017 - 06:09pm PT
**It might be, Kevin, that overall, you are paddling your raft of objectivity too far out into emotional waters here.
**

Roy, are you saying that ideas suspended in u there in mid-air don't make people happy? That's how I've been interpreting some of this discussion.

zBrown, I love that photo of Elmore, one of my favorites.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 21, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
Dana:
Roy, are you saying that ideas suspended in u there in mid-air don't make people happy? That's how I've been interpreting some of this discussion.
Ideas suspended in me? Not exactly sure of the question.

 I'm saying that it's an emotionally charged issue, so instead of people engaging with Kevin's observations and ideas, they're just giving him knee-jerk kick back.

I hear him in his second to last post, (that doesn't mean I necessarily agree or disagree, I just hear it) and I'm sitting here waiting for someone (invested and well-versed in feminism) to respond, who can do so unemotionally and address his assertion in the most practical terms possible.

I certainly don't have the answers.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 21, 2017 - 06:45pm PT
^^^
Does this make sense, Kevin?

I don't know what this means, so I can't sign off on it:
I think what he's saying is maybe I should lean more in the heforshe virtue signaling direction.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
Beauty walks a razor's edge, someday I'll make it mine
If I could only turn back the clock to when God and her were born
Come in, she said
I'll give ya shelter from the storm
-Elston (not Peter) Gunn


Gregor Samsa wacht eines Morgens auf und stellt fest, dass er „zu einem ungeheueren Ungeziefer verwandelt“ wurde.


The epithet ungeheueres Ungeziefer in the opening sentence poses one of the greatest challenges to the translator. Both the adjective ungeheuer (meaning “monstrous” or “huge”) and the noun Ungeziefer are negations— virtual nonentities—prefixed by un. Ungeziefer comes from the Middle High German ungezibere, a negation of the Old High German zebar (related to the Old English ti’ber), meaning “sacrifice” or “sacrificial animal.” An ungezibere, then, is an unclean animal unfit for sacrifice, and Ungeziefer describes the class of nasty creepy-crawly things. The word in German suggests primarily six-legged critters, though it otherwise resembles the English word “vermin” (which refers primarily to rodents). Ungeziefer is also used informally as the equivalent of “bug,” though the connotation is “dirty, nasty bug”—you wouldn’t apply the word to cute, helpful creatures like ladybugs.

Yo mama


Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
^^^
No, the easy way out does not fit the climbing spirit.

At this point, you wouldn't think I would need the playbook, but I need help with this:

Maybe the answer to all the questions here is simply heforshe virtue signaling.

He for she: taking a woman's stance, speaking for a woman, help me out.

Virtue signaling: explain please.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
Get a sense of humor, Gary

Like some inferior doctor who's become ill
You're in despair and are unable to discover
By what medicine you yourself can be cured."

Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:38pm PT
For all my use of vocabulary, I guess this just shows how dense I am!

So, if this were to describe what I was suggesting to you, what would a complete translation look like?

I think what he's saying is maybe I should lean more in the heforshe virtue signaling direction.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
Ha!

Well, that isn't going to answer anything.

And it's not even the easy way out. It's just giving up on meaningful conversation or debate.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:44pm PT
Going back many posts to my original longer missive, I was saying this:

 I'm saying that it's an emotionally charged issue, so instead of people engaging with Kevin's observations and ideas, they're just giving him knee-jerk kick back.

And I was saying, due to the venue, we are likely to be in for a long wait!
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:49pm PT
Try this one for some answers:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/80/Fast-Women
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 21, 2017 - 07:59pm PT
And that's why I was suggesting maybe an academic environment, if you really want to test your ideas against a rigorous and qualified opponent.

I wasn't being snippy.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 21, 2017 - 08:18pm PT
I just let Lynn talk extemporaneously about gender relations and climbing.

I didn't go into it with a list of discrete questions. And we didn't really talk about feminism per se.

I crunched my notes into a Word document. That needs more work, so it hasn't been forwarded to her yet for a review.

But there's nothing in there which would answer your specific challenge concerning the notion of the patriarchy, or the lack of it, and whether that would dismantle the foundation of feminist ideology.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 21, 2017 - 09:16pm PT
it's likely she has some thought provoking ideas about female climbers in relation to males, which is where this started.

Whether thought provoking or not, I'd probably just have to kick it out here and see. Certainly relevant, though, much of it we've already covered.


I would expect her vocalizations would be measured, and unlikely to be too controversial.

Something like that, though not necessarily by design. She was pretty comfortable with the idea that I might relate her perspectives.

I felt we had moved beyond most of what came out of my conversation with her, so I put it down after my initial dictation of the notes.

It may breathe new life into the conversation, as you said, but we may also be at a point where the thread is a bit long in the tooth, and most of our readers and contributors here have moved on.

If you want me to continue to pursue shaping the thing up, I'll be happy to do it. Currently signing off for the night, cheers.
DanaB

climber
CT
Sep 22, 2017 - 06:19am PT
Roy,

It was a simple typo - the u shouldn't be there. Probably why the post was confusing. Lo siento, wasn't trying to be unclear.

Kevin gave us an opinion in his first post. I agree with him and given the clarity and strong focus of his subsequent posts, I believe he meant nothing more beyond what he wrote. Read the words.

But the opinion was also narrow in scope. Fine; it's impossible to have a useful discussion if the topic isn't neatly circumscribed. But the subject at hand involves more than just the physical differences between men and women so trying to limit it to that - not likely to happen Kevin. It can be frustrating if you are trying to be logical and rational, but ideas just can't be disengaged from experiences and feelings.

I think that's what I'm trying to say.






























Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 22, 2017 - 08:30am PT
Thanks for the clarification, Dana.

So if this, your statement:

But the subject at hand involves more than just the physical differences between men and women so trying to limit it to that - not likely to happen Kevin. It can be frustrating if you are trying to be logical and rational, but ideas just can't be disengaged from experiences and feelings.

Is roughly equal to this, my statement:

I'm saying that it's an emotionally charged issue, so instead of people engaging with Kevin's observations and ideas, they're just giving him knee-jerk kick back.

 And I believe they are roughly equal, so yes, Dana, perhaps we are suggesting the same thing.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 22, 2017 - 08:31am PT
Moving forward, Kevin, you said:

no buddy here has the cajones or the interest to back me up in writing.

If that's referring to backing you up on this challenge:

[Kevin's] specific challenge concerning the notion of the patriarchy, or the lack of it, and whether that would dismantle the foundation of feminist ideology.

If I'm not backing you up on this ^, it's not for lack of vigor on my part. It's just that I don't know enough about the foundation of feminist ideology to say one way or the other.

It may be worth pointing out that the challenge from you which I'm identifying above, is more broad sweeping than the one from your initial post on this thread, made on August 8:

I'm glad my efforts to debunk third wave feminism and the associated gender denial are not going unnoticed.

And at this point, my head is beginning to get numb!
Not meant as a quip, just stating the fact that I am fatigued, out of ideas, and don't know where to go from here. So maybe it's getting close to the end of the line for me.
DanaB

climber
CT
Sep 22, 2017 - 09:07am PT
Yes, Roy, that is what I was trying to say. Emotions are illogical but they have their own logic, a logic everyone knows and feels. Few people are like HW Tilman, talking to one of the mates on his ship

"Good god, man! Sugar and milk on your cornflakes?"
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 22, 2017 - 09:17am PT
"Good god, man! Sugar and milk on your cornflakes?"
^
HA!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 22, 2017 - 10:10am PT

Men are no better decision makers when they are in their comfort zone - thinking fast.

This thread is without statistics left to wit...
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 22, 2017 - 11:03am PT
Come on King T,
Maybe try a sense of humor on for size?

...

Kevin said:
Does that sum it up?

I don't know if it's any kind of maxim to live by, but I've seen it happen!

...

And Marlow probably has a point concerning the need for statistics.

...

 Regardless, after all of it, I mean every last little itty bit of all of it, my face is about to melt off ...
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 22, 2017 - 11:15am PT

So we can agree that logic is unemotional, but emotions are logical

It's (bio)logical that women use emotion to counter logic when confronted with it

Does that sum it up?

One funny thing about this is that the argumentation can be seen as quite emotionally selective... Using Warbler's own reasoning: Is Warbler a woman?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Sep 22, 2017 - 11:49am PT
^^^
That's it!!!
I just hit the floor, haha.

Luckily, Lisa will be here to scrape up the residue of what was once Roy, when she gets home ...
Tom Turrentine

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Sep 22, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
I've been lurking here for awhile, and listening to the banter. For context, I just finished a "Sidecar" and am in a bar in Cortina Italy, scanning the amazing walls today, home of Comici and Messner.

Trying to think about the age old battle of genetic vs culture; past vs future, women and men. Kevin (I'm about he same age, not an elite climber like Kevin).I spent too much time in grad school in anthropology, not enough climbing. I'm not so convinced as Kevin about the gender stuff for climbing (but thinking about it way less). The rate of change may be high, and I think the science on this topic is not so well developed. One of my daughter's female friends has bouldered 30 feet uo on V10, it took my breath away. And she is did it on pure guts, adrenaline (not testosterone) and natural talent, not months of prep.

So I'm really unsure. And as for the "natural relationship" of tough men and sexy, sweet women, that seems a far away myth, something I learned in my church, but was not really the diverse reality of relationships or human potential. It is way more complex than I understand.

tom
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 22, 2017 - 12:11pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Nibs

Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
Sep 22, 2017 - 12:58pm PT
Marlow, TFPU. Very Cool intimate performance btn Christine and JJ. He actually smiles for a moment...
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 23, 2017 - 06:29pm PT
Gayle Sierens, Beth Mowens pfffft

hahahahaha

Janis Joplin was the first woman I ever heard call an NFL game.








rbolton

Social climber
The home
Sep 25, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
Just an interesting side note on the post speculating that Kevin is actually a woman. When saw the photo below years ago my first thought was “Hmmmm...I don’t think I know her”.

clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 25, 2017 - 01:06pm PT
Sweet
rbolton

Social climber
The home
Sep 25, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
Heh-Heh-Heh...C'mon Kevin. You know you have some very pretty hair! Imagine my surprise after reading the caption. And to your credit, Freewheelin, Jigsaw, and Black Primo are three of the most amazing routes I've ever done.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 25, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
Wtf, is this bullshit wankery still geezing along at full speed?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 25, 2017 - 04:21pm PT
Nothing particularily feminine about cooking, it's just a task handed down to them by men...like housekeeping. There is also nothing particularily masculine about high finance, it's just something men have co-opted for themselves, but....the times they are a changin.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 25, 2017 - 05:26pm PT
Feminism is only debunkable with trumpian arguments and only someone part of the problem would think it wankery to begin with.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 25, 2017 - 06:39pm PT
My compliments to the chef then.

It's a long story.

It's like a jigsaw puzzle I tell ya, where someone dropped some of the pieces.

Use your thoughtz and wordz my friendz.
-El Zorro

zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 25, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
Be careful out there.

She had a full face, high cheekbones and long black hair done in two long braids. ... in a section called 'A Worthy Opponent' dated December 11, 1962, Castaneda, whose teacher's teacher was a Diablero, writes that over a month before he had a horrendous confrontation with a female version of same, a sorceress called 'la Catalina.'


"I kept my eyes glued to that spot and suddenly, as if in a nightmare, a dark shadow leaped at me. I shrieked and fell down to the ground on my back. For a moment the dark silhouette was superimposed against the dark blue sky and then it sailed through the air and landed beyond us, in the bushes. I heard the sound of a heavy body crashing into the shrubs and then an eerie outcry."
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 25, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
Scent marking, because the territory is getting smaller.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 26, 2017 - 06:41am PT
Territory's getting bigger where I live, clinker!

Careful, there are funny tape-measures out there. Just for men.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 26, 2017 - 06:43am PT
Earlier this month, Belgian climber Anak Verhoeven became the second woman to climb 5.15a with her ascent of Sweet Neuf at Pierrot Beach in France. Moreover, the 21 year old is the first woman to make a 5.15a first ascent.

“For decades, women have been taking climbing to new levels. I am honored to stand among those women,” Hayes told Rock and Ice after her ascent of La Rambla [read the full interview here]. “We will see more women pushing the boundaries of climbing in all of the genres.”

That day, it appears, is already here.

Yep
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 26, 2017 - 09:46am PT
mostly about feminist claims that women are capable of doing anything men can do as well as they can do it,

Do have a source for that claim? Thanks.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 26, 2017 - 10:24am PT
I acknowledge that a lot of women can out climb me.

And thanks for acknowledging that your statement is a bunch of malarkey.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 26, 2017 - 11:21am PT
True equality btw the sexes,

Would mean no men's and women's categories in sports?


Men and woman are different, thank God or biology, and celebrate the difference. Woman should be completely recognized for what they are worth as individuals, equal pay for equal production ect. More$ for many types of career/business and less $ for some sports? BTW how do male models pay compared to women models pay?

IMO climbing, more so than many sports, could see woman equal or eclipse men in technical difficulty of sport climbing achievements.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 11:27am PT
Just answer the question, eh?

Would you rather spend the day with The Black Widow or a dead rock?

[] Yes
[] NO
[] Undecided, I never met her

Join Jeanette Lee “The Black Widow,” pool’s most famous player, for a day of learning and fun. Players of all skill levels will receive great benefit from the experience and insights of a champion. Don’t miss your chance to participate in an affordable billiards clinic hosted by Jeanette Lee.


clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Sep 26, 2017 - 12:45pm PT

Z, do you know how many pool terms there are?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Sep 26, 2017 - 02:18pm PT
Are you saying indirectly that you believe females cannot climb at the same level as men?

No

Looking forward to your citations.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 26, 2017 - 04:07pm PT
Well they got a later start right.

It's seems pretty obvious that at present there is no equality in climbing performance which is not to say that parity won't be attained at some point in the future provided that the menzz don't get all nervous and start taking PEDs.

It happened in billiards (2 clinker - though I don't understand ur question) right ?
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Sep 26, 2017 - 07:14pm PT
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Sep 26, 2017 - 07:26pm PT
Right, cause twenty years ago, nonsexist Warbler was all saying, sure, women can climb 5.15a! What's the big fuss about men climbing 5.15a?

We don't have to revise history, we can just do it in our heads.

So the grade that men are climbing now, can women climb that hard?

Hmmm, if so, why aren't they? Enquiring minds want to know. Might it be similar to the reason why, 150 year after slavery ended, black median wealth creation is 1/13 of white median wealth creation?

Try not to have your dick write your post for you :-)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 27, 2017 - 01:58am PT

In 1885, a young woman sent the editor of her hometown newspaper a brilliant response to a letter by a patronizing chauvinist, which the paper had published under the title “What Girls Are Good For.” The woman, known today as Nellie Bly, so impressed the editor that she was hired at the paper and went on to become a trailblazing journalist, circumventing the globe in 75 days with only a duffle bag and risking her life to write a seminal exposé of asylum abuse, which forever changed legal protections for the mentally ill. But Bly’s courage says as much about her triumphant character as it does about the tragedies of her culture — she is celebrated as a hero in large part because she defied and transcended the limiting gender norms of the Victorian era, which reserved courageous and adventurous feats for men, while raising women to be diffident, perfect, and perfectly pretty instead.

https://www.bloglovin.com/blogs/brain-pickings-3114621/gutsy-girl-a-modern-manifesto-for-bravery-4774584698

America of today is, depending on you perspective, rather or quite Victorian...

Here's one of the world's best biathlon athletes some years ago (Björn Ferry, 6 WC wins) wrestling arm with his lower weight girlfriend

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Exceptions can illustrate a point, can't they?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 27, 2017 - 08:42am PT

Queen Victoria puritan? Haha.... read her story... A theme for the Mind thread could be "Was Queen Victoria Victorian?"...

skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Sep 27, 2017 - 09:32am PT
Victoria!!!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Sometimes you just need to relax after intense conversations such as these

[Click to View YouTube Video]
WBraun

climber
Sep 27, 2017 - 09:36am PT
The thread, as usual, has now gone st00pid because people who have nothing to say are now here with their st00pid useless YouTube videos .....
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Sep 27, 2017 - 09:39am PT
Oh, that's just sad that you can't learn something from a youtube video. You getting too old dude.

Here, just for you

[Click to View YouTube Video]
L

climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
Sep 27, 2017 - 09:47am PT
I'm cryin' in my coffee...that worthless YouTube video of the fainting goats is the funniest thing I've seen in ages.

TFPU!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 27, 2017 - 09:49am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 28, 2017 - 02:43pm PT
Everybody's stalkin' at you, can't hear a word you're sayin'...

How does that make you fee-ee-yul?
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 28, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
too lazy to crow for day


Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 30, 2017 - 09:49am PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Oct 22, 2017 - 03:45pm PT
Don't forget Sharma, Tut (La Dura Dura).

One of my friends watched her get the send and I thought of this thread too.
L

climber
And I'm searchin' for waterspouts...
Oct 22, 2017 - 04:08pm PT
King Tut,

Do you ever climb at Sanctuary in Seaside? Ever get out to Pinnacles on a sunny day?
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Oct 22, 2017 - 07:07pm PT
Is La Dura Dura 9b+?

From the horse's mouth:

https://www.climbing.com/news/ondra-puts-down-la-dura-dura-5-15c/

http://rockandice.com/features/perfect-play-what-it-took-to-climb-la-dura-dura-5-15c-the-worlds-hardest-route/
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Oct 26, 2017 - 01:52pm PT

The good old days, when apes were men and men weren't apes?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Oct 26, 2017 - 08:23pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Oct 26, 2017 - 09:06pm PT
No slapping involved, Walter: I'm your chorus!
Now start popping that corn, and I'll jam the fridge with cheap beer.
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 09:52am PT
she will never be as good as a man

Of course not.

She is NOT a Man ...... :-)
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 10:21am PT
can you imagine telling Lynn that she "couldn't do (some thing she wanted to do) because she was a woman"?

Yes ....

She couldn't shave her beard every morning to go to work.

She can't impregnate a woman with her sperm since has none.

And ... etc etc etc

Biologically women are different than men and vice versa.

Don't take yourself too seriously on everything dude .......
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 27, 2017 - 10:57am PT
This sh*t just blows my mind.
c wilmot

climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 11:21am PT
dick statistics


another issue men and women simply disagree upon
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 11:48am PT
LOL ....

Larry Nelson

Social climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
Fun conversation ;-)
I enjoyed this video.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 02:10pm PT
I'm gonna try to shortcut the other thread.

Will somebody just post the answer to - What is "Mind?"
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 02:30pm PT
Will somebody just post the answer to - What is "Mind?"

It's the attempt of the twisted gross materialist to understand the hardware of his material body that it's a prisoner of until released by the effect of its past Karma.
WBraun

climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
Women are still hours behind in the Nose speed record.

Not that I even give a sh!t.

Just to let you know ..... :-)
zBrown

Ice climber
Oct 27, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
It's the attempt of the twisted gross materialist to understand the hardware of his material body that it's a prisoner of until released by the effect of its past Karma.

Succinct!
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 27, 2017 - 03:18pm PT
It only makes a difference when feminists claim women are as adventurous as men in the climbing world, or that the patriarchy is the reason women don't climb as hard as men, or that women are being intimidated and objectified by male climbers - then it becomes a question of science and biology and the merits of feminism.

I don't give a flying fuk who climbs the hardest routes, I just know its predominately males. I do object to PC bullsh#t, commercialization, and ideological proselytizing in the climbing arena

...and the merits of feminism?

Dude, your taking this stuff way to seriously.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 27, 2017 - 03:37pm PT
You've been Warbling away on this subject on at least two threads for weeks (or has it been months?)

Rather than go on and on about the superior strength and landnav skills of the male sex, why not cheer on women who do amazing things? For one thing it's a much more effective way to get laid ;-)

Oh, I always think big.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 27, 2017 - 04:02pm PT
This notion that men have to kiss ass and capitulate to women for sexual reward, as you're suggesting I should do, is a major cultural problem born of feminism

One, I never said anything about kissing ass. Unless showing respect for achievement is kissing ass.

Two, Usually when someone follows a comment with ;-) it is an indication that said remark is meant in a somewhat light hearted or humorous way.

Bushman

climber
The state of quantum flux
Oct 27, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
Yawn

The war of the sexes
Most certainly vexes
I'd have time to yawn
But she said mow the lawn
Which brings to the nexus
The reason I'm gone

-bushman
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Oct 31, 2017 - 11:32am PT
http://rockandice.com/climbing-news/angy-eiter-becomes-first-woman-to-climb-5-15b

Austrian climber Angela ‘Angy’ Eiter broke new ground again as the first woman to climb 5.15b. Only two people have climbed at grades harder than 5.15b—Adam Ondra
and Chris Sharma.

On October 22, the 31-year-old redpointed La Planta de Shiva (9b/5.15b) in Villanueva del Rosario, Spain. The route, which Ondra established in 2011, links a pitch 5.14b
into a steep and crimpy extension to create a 45-meter endurance test-piece that’s only been climbed by Ondra, on the first ascent, and Jakob Schubert, who
repeated the route last year.

“I didn’t really focus on a route in the 9b [5.15b] range,” Eiter tells Rock and Ice. “However, the occasion came spontaneously.”
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Oct 31, 2017 - 12:16pm PT
There's more to climbing than sport climbing

I totally agree!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Nov 8, 2017 - 02:18pm PT
Females? ROUTES?!?!


[Click to View YouTube Video]
nah000

climber
now/here
Nov 8, 2017 - 10:49pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

while one never knows for sure what’s in another person’s heart, i will say that if the above was entirely “forced” he’s got a great looking future in hollywood... [regardless and while i hate to bump this thread: i thought his words were worth a listen.]

always nice to see us having these conversations where in this “matriarchal society” the harvey weinsteins and roger ailes of this world, along with the infrastructures that supported them, have been so “dominated”... “;)”

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Nov 9, 2017 - 07:51am PT
Yeah that smile is something else. Hears about it from a friend. Could be fun to quote at the base of a popular climbing wall.
Jkruse

Trad climber
Las Cruces, NM
Dec 6, 2017 - 08:13am PT
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/71402/free_ascent_of_salatheacute_wall_by_hazel_findlay
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