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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 30, 2017 - 09:55pm PT
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Tami: I'm also curious about trauma that does NOT cause post traumatic stress.
For what it’s worth (this is technical), the initial research from the VA said that Vietnam vets’ experience that led to PTSD was “structurally different” than that of “combat fatigue” in either WWII or Korea. In contrast:
1. There were no front or back lines in the war, and that made the experience very ambiguous. As well, good people and bad people wore the same black pajamas.
2. Troops went over with their units in WWII and came back with them in toto.
3. The trip back took about 30 days in WWII, and it allowed for decompression and sharing of experiences among compadres.
4. It takes about 6 months to create a friendship. The tour in Korea took 13 months and in Vietnam 12 months; on average, you knew a person in those places for about 6 months.
5 . Vietnam was a very unpopular war among young people, so many vets were never recognized as heroes or worthy servicemen when they got back to the U.S.
6. The enemy seemed to have more commitment than we, perhaps because there was a sense of righteousness in them that we didn’t have.
7. While we had 3-day R&Rs once a year, in WWII entire units were pulled off the line and rested for as much as a month before going back into the field of combat. On the other hand, some of those units in WWII saw action all the time.
8. You flew to the country of battle in Vietnam in 17 hours, and it took as long come back home to the U.S. The transition was a very eerie experience, like some sort of transportation tube in a Science Fiction movie. Here, the regular world. There, you land in a really in the middle of a strange place where people are trying to kill you. Welcome.
I suppose that one could apply some of these dimensions “structurally” to non-combat situations, but I’m no expert. I’m just a reader.
Sorry for being long-winded about this. I didn’t have time to write more succinctly.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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May 30, 2017 - 11:11pm PT
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Hey Q-ball. I hope talking about this is helpful.I have told my story seemingly a thousand times.
Keep talking about it....
Cheers!
S....
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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May 31, 2017 - 02:34am PT
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I really don't have anything to add to this but wanted to just chime in that I'm learning a lot from all you folks. So thanks for that.
Well, I could add Q-ball that I have been to the Sundrabans in Bangladesh and have tracked tigers there (as well as a few other places). A very special place.
I'll have to dig up some old pug mark photos from that trip if I can find them. Didn't get any closer than those 20 minute old pugs (it had just rained) so no tigers that time, but I'm sure many of the locals have PTSD/S from their experiences.
Also, I'm sure WB probably won't chime in but I've always been curious how folks in his line of work manage.
cheers
edit- From Knave below-I think you helped answer my question above, it was how I think folks deal...thanks
Point being, I guess I felt detached from the scenes, very clinical and then back to quarters. Perhaps a bit sociopathic but I put it in a box and forget about it. I guess my rationale was, didn't cause this but what can I do to help and then move on. Perhaps its all the shrooming we did as teens seriously I don't know.
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Knave
Trad climber
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May 31, 2017 - 09:13am PT
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Very interesting subject. I think that I am one of the compartmentalizers. 30 years as a medic, 20 with a fire department, myriad calls and only two breakdowns in that span. When my son was 8 months we got a call for a non breathing 8 month old, long story short, parents met the ambulance and confronted me about the outcome, couldn't tell them I just started bawling right there, had an eyelid twitch for a few days then I was ok. The second happened when I was driving home the day I retired, had a giant catarthsis cried to dehydration on that drive.
Still get flashes when around certain intersections and neighborhoods remembering this call and that, memories but no anxiety or such like others describe in there experiences. That being said it was a good career and not like War or being abused or Fighting anything with teeth and claws. Dangerous at times but like climbing, you feel in control, prepared calculating your risks and deluding a bit here and there.
Point being, I guess I felt detached from the scenes, very clinical and then back to quarters. Perhaps a bit sociopathic but I put it in a box and forget about it. I guess my rationale was, didn't cause this but what can I do to help and then move on. Perhaps its all the shrooming we did as teens seriously I don't know.
Just relating and wishing that all those that live long enough to be traumatized find a way to cope and heal.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2017 - 09:43am PT
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Thanks everyone for the info and stories!
Delhi dog, would love to hear about your time tracking tigers. That is one cat I have never worked with. My work has been with Jaguars, lions, leopards, snow leopards, and other African stuff. I am greatful for most of the memories I have dealing with these critters.
One funny story...while working in Africa...I woke up hearing something going on in the kitchen. I stumbled in ready to stomp on a house cat. I flipped the lights on while rubbing my eyes. No house cat, but a large female spotted hyena. Typical wild noises ensued by the hyena and me.
I chased it around and got it out. The commotion woke up my friend as I told him the situation was solved. We both couldn't sleep and sat at the boma outside.
He decided to call someone to chat...I was watching him walking back and forth. In the driveway...I recall him saying "I need to call you back". I looked back over and a large male lion was sitting like a dog at his feet. It's head was level with his. He backed away and the cat never moved. We both went back inside for the rest of the night!
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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May 31, 2017 - 04:01pm PT
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2017 - 02:55pm PT
Ksolem,
Thanks for the story and thoughts. I am still not trying to make this about me and understand many people deal with much more difficult situations.
Talking about some of my experiences helps me. Folks that know me think I have crazy stories and no emotions (or some superhero to laymen). I am a tough guy, but a heavy thinker on stuff.
Some instances that weigh heavy on me...
Struck by lightening 5 times
Avalanche
Hauling a German guys body down from 20,000
The mtn lion stuff
Divorce from an abusive spouse
Sinking a boat solo in 900 ft of water
2shark attacks
I guess I am just a mess! I got out of the high altitude stuff and stick to the rivers and jungle now.
The simple math show that probability that everything listed above fell on one person is exceed number of people living on the earth .
1.Struck by lightening: Five times
http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml
Odds of being struck in your lifetime once (Est. 80 years) 1/13,000
It mean that struck 5 times during the life for one the same person would be 1/13000x13000x13000x13000x13000. It is already more than number people on our planet
2. Sharks attack : TWO times
From 1990-99, there were 38 shark attacks on divers…. worldwide. From 2000-2009, the number was 34. (Source). About twenty percent of those attacks were fatal.
The broader shark attack numbers that just on divers are also amazingly rare. There were 79 confirmed shark attacks on humans, worldwide, in 2010 and 63 attacks in 2009. There were only 6 fatalities from shark attack in 2010 — sharks do not hunt humans and in the rare cases where they bite, then most often then move on.
The yearly average number of deaths from 2001-10 from shark attacks are 4.3 per year. (Source). The chance of a shark attack while scuba diving is almost nil.
http://www.goseewrite.com/2011/02/traveling-and-dying-the-real-risks-in-life/
interesting statistics: falling from the bad cause a lot of death as well as animal-drawn vehicle. they did not say anything about cougar-drawn vehicle.
3. Mountain lion attack : One time
http://www.topangaonline.com/nature/lionatk.html
A scientific review of records on attacks by cougars on humans in the United States and Canada from 1890 through 1990 indicated there were 53 cougar attacks on humans during this period. There were nine attacks that resulted in 10 human deaths, and 44 non-fatal attacks.
during the life span odds about 53/300 million american which roughly 1/6 000 000
If you multiply the probability of each event by one another and looks at the final results…
Well, what I can say politely , little bit of exaggeration ?
Taking aside more probable for climbers events like avalanche, abusive wife and hauling dead German[ but still rare coincidence for one person]
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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May 31, 2017 - 04:22pm PT
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
Oct 1, 2015 - 09:11pm PT
I was always on the fence about "assault rifles" until this past winter. I never saw a use for one other than killing people. That has changed. I have a feral pig problem on my farm. A high capacity magazine/clip is crucial if you want to try and kill the whole sounder.
I wish I could get a clip that holds more than 20 rounds and works with my Ruger mini-30.
I hate hate breaking my rifles across the skulls of charging hogs when I run out of ammo.
Not complaining just don't make it harder for me to kill these pests.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2694822&msg=2695209#msg2695209
You forget to add to the list 3 charging hogs
Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
May 12, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
My biggest fault is helping people that don't deserve my time. I have a soft heart and believe in all but it has kicked me in the butt several times.
...
Your biggest fault is asking people for help you are not deserve
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 31, 2017 - 04:37pm PT
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1.Struck by lightening: Five times
http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/odds.shtml
Odds of being struck in your lifetime once (Est. 80 years) 1/13,000
It mean that struck 5 times during the life for one the same person would be 1/13000x13000x13000x13000x13000. It is already more than number people on our planet
Not everything is reported.
As for those odds, ask Mike Gauthier. (3 times)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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May 31, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
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I wish that Q-Ball attracting all of these hazards upon himself made it safer for the rest of us. But it's not a zero sum game... :-)
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2017 - 05:05pm PT
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Alexey,
I spend a lot of time outdoors. If you don't want to believe that is up to you. Two of the strikes occurred at table rock NC, the other three occurred in the Wind River Range Wyo.
The most memorable one was guiding a group up Freemont Peak in the Winds.
I don't embellish, but the history I have is not a common one. I am fully aware of that.
That is one thing that weighs heavy on me.
As my mom always says, "the older I get the more I realize how boring most people are".
Take care!
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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May 31, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
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Q- Ball,
do not kill innocent animals and people will treat you better.
And use your brain when you made up your stories. Make them more real. Like falling from the bad to the obvious death can be more thrilling than fighting with pack of hungry elephants when crossing Russian-Mongolian border
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 31, 2017 - 05:57pm PT
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Alexey, creampuff dearest, Q-ball is a modest lightweight. There's a Florida state parks ranger
who has been hit by lightning like 12 times!
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2017 - 06:00pm PT
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Alexey,
Funny you mentioned the Russia/Mongolia border... I was working in the Altai Mountains near Kosh Agach doing snow leopard research...ended up with a few Russian soldiers chasing me up a mountain to the Mongolian border.
Hate to say I never had elephants on that trip!
Qball
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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May 31, 2017 - 06:33pm PT
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state parks ranger probably did not consider that probability theory exist when he made up the his 12 Labours of Ranger [Hercules] story. Are you familiar with the math dearest Reilly ?
back to multi tasking of Q- Ball:
Aquatic Biologist/Cat biologist/Hunter/Farmer all together
Probably there is nothing strange being Hunter and Farmer as one person.
But beings Cat biologist and Lion hunter at the same time looks for me as a multi personality disorder. Plus Aquatic Biologist & Cat biologist are two different species
Aquatic Biologist
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2308344&tn=120
Maybe these experiences is what made me become an Aquatic Biologist?
cat biologist
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2980115&msg=2980269#msg2980269
Very strange that the first recorded attack in Wyo occurred to me, a cat biologist, out bird watching. You CA guys need to be aware. Take care all!
Farmer in US:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2974914&msg=2974914#msg2974914
I often have people ask me this. Most recently it was a indigenous Indian in the jungle. I replied, "my farm in Tennessee ". He seemed a bit dismayed by the quick response and lack of an adventurous story.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1501502&msg=1502567#msg1502567
We just got some rain! Been needing it for some crops we just put in. All is well out my way, 4th generation farmer/timber/miner, and proud of it.
Farmer in Southern Africa:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2662418&msg=2666911#msg2666911
Tradman,
First off, talking about farm raised... Me too. I assume you didn't farm in Southern Africa. Elephants are a huge problem around the Caprivi Strip area (Bostwana, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Zambia).
Predators also take a toll (ie lions, spotted hyenas, wild dogs, leopards).
Hunter:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2312399&msg=2312468#msg2312468
Depends on the species?
Bird hunting 0-100% depends on where and when
Lion Hunting- very low for me (not much of a lion hunter)
Bears- 50%
Feral Hogs- Illegal in Tenn!!! (we trap them over bait)
Foxes- I let neighbors hunt them (hunt being they chase the foxes on horseback and don't actually kill the fox)
Squirrels- easy to tree and find, usually just tree them because my pup (Starlette) has so much fun doing it!
All over this tread Hunter Q- Ball
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2662418&msg=2662477#msg2662477
So.... If a squirrel bounces across my lawn after leaving a protected area and I... with permits in hand shoot it, then what?
Baiting lions on hunting concessions/ private property is legal in Zimbabwe. Did he hunt in the protected area?
Because he wounded the lion and followed it for 40 hours to finish it sounds like something I would do if I had wounded a deer or elk.
What law did he break, just curious maybe I missed something.?
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2017 - 06:35pm PT
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Alexey,
I hope you are excited you have brought tears to my eyes. You can call me anything but calling me a liar is not cool. I don't know you and you don't know me. I bet you don't have the guts to stand and fight a lion, but I would do it for you.
This thread is about PTSD and now am defending myself. Take care, wish you the best.
Q
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
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Most make their living in an urban forest/jungle full of dangerous human animals far worse than the animals in a real forest/jungle .......
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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May 31, 2017 - 06:51pm PT
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Q- Ball, I believe part of your stories like that you are killing animals using automatic rifle and posing for the picture with your kill. I do not believe that you are biologist.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
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Alexey,
By law I have to record my kills (the pic you reposted I am proud off) I had shot 49 that February. All feral hogs that should not be in these mountains.
I don't have the time to make a list of peer reviewed scientific articles I have published.
Think what you want and start a thread that isn't dealing with PTSD. If you have half a heart, you will not try and trash me during a fragile time. ( and it is funny all my quotes sound good to me!) Guess you are just jealous of me getting out there and getting crap done.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 31, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
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