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ryanb
climber
Hamilton, MT
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Dec 25, 2016 - 04:43pm PT
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I do a fair amount of mellow touring on fat light dynafit gear after previously having various xc gear and I'll offer a dissenting opinion.
XC is great for forest roads but dynafit really shine for longer or more rugged trips and fresh snow even if steep stuff isn't involved.
1) Tech bindings release. A friend on tele gear blew out his knee last week after catching a tip in a bush. Minor epic ensued as we hobbled out as temperatures slowly dropped (it got to -15 F that night here in MT, good thing we were close to the car when it happened).
2) Its easy to clear ice and packed snow out of them and the boot sockets after sections of walking. Some of the NNN BC stuff can basically become non functional with minor ice. 3 pin stuff is better but still fiddly.
3) Breaking trail in deep snow is *much* easiest on fat light skis with heel lifters.
4) If you didn't grow up with skis on your feet it's a lot easier (and safer) to learn with locked releasable heels.
5) Fat skis give you enough float to actually ski low angle powder instead of needing to break trail downhill. Which makes it less tempting to venture onto the sleep avi prone slopes.
I'd say buy a used xc/light tele setup and give it a try if you want...lots of them show up as people upgrade to tech setups. If you get into it I suspect you'll want to upgrade as well.
If you shop deals a tech setup isn't that much more now that there are lots of options for and sales on light boots. Dynafit speed bindings can be had for ~200 from europe.
(Also: i've never skied in the Sierra, just the cascades and rockies so my opinion was formed by variable conditions and frequent brush. If the area you ski is truly a wonderland of deep spring snow conditions covering rolling alpine golf courses then I can see XC gear being a blast.)
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 25, 2016 - 05:09pm PT
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FS: Garmont Excursions size mondo 27 (9 to 9.5 ). $75 for supertopoers.
Only used a few times (too small).
I've also got some Karhu 10th Mountain waxless metal edged skis. I think they are 190s. Also only used a few times.
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east side underground
climber
paul linaweaver hilton crk ca
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Dec 25, 2016 - 09:20pm PT
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tgt2 you kidding me the surface area on my fat skiis ill skin up way sttepper terrain than your pos epoke 600s anyday
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Dec 26, 2016 - 04:48am PT
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Ha, heard the page from Sewelleymon!
I have enjoyed many miles of snowy Sierra up and down and across...on a now completely discontinued set-up...Fischer Rebound Skis then copied and refined by Salomon "89's" with Salomon BC boots and bindings.
Looks like Fischer currently has a similar but beefier set-tup with S-Bound series, and BCX6 Boots.
I agree that a lightweight set-up can be very enjoyable on the routes you are describing. However, most people prefer the security and stability that heavier gear provides on the descents. My needs were a bit off the mainstream track...I spent so much time as an XC racer that I always want to kick and glide like a racer when touring around. So for me, the narrower Salomon or NNN binding set up is going to be preferred, as it doesn't overhang the ski and drag on the track, or even in the loose snow when breaking trail. Most people enjoy shuffling along unhurried and that is cool, and a less streamlined and heavier set up is great.
At Ostrander, I could have that third cup of coffee, spend extra time discussing all sorts of interesting topics with Howard Weamer, let the crew break trail to the last switchback above the lake, then kick and glide like a racer up the skin tracks and catch them all in 10 minutes. Yes, I also had the fitness and balance to enjoy the extra challenge of tele-turns with the light gear, and if I occasionally fell, could sometimes execute an Aikido roll and come up gliding! Howard loved my set-up, and got a pair of the skis, but he preferred lightweight 3-pin boots, not having that total racer vibe, but he could still churn out three laps while the rest of the crew settled for two.
So, figure out what you really want. Lighter gear demands more awareness and sensitivity to the medium...you adjust to the little ripples and swirls of the frozen white, sometimes you adjust your schedule to allow time for the sun to soften the slope for the perfect conditions. The big and heavy gear can cut right across whatever is there, and you will fall less.
One of the best ski adventure I have enjoyed was Rock Creek to Mammoth in an 18 hour day with my son Braden, we both had that set-up. Kicking and gliding like champs on the long gradual uphills, pedal-jump turns down some wild faces...kicker skins for the steeper climbs.
I have chosen to engage the snow covered mountains with a style and practice best expressed in the words of my friend and mentor Doug Robinson...
"Our security increases as we apply more leverage, but along with it we notice a growing isolation from the earth...Perceptions dull and we come to accept a blunting of feeling in the shadow of security. Drunk with power, I find that I am out of my senses. I, tool man, long for immediacy of contact to brighten my senses again, to bring me nearer the world once again; in my security I have forgotten how to dance."
"Technology is imposed on the land, but technique means conforming to the landscape. They work in opposite directions, one forcing passage while the other discovers it...The goal of developing technique is to conform to the most improbable landscape by means of the greatest degree of skill and boldness supported by the least equipment."
Kick, Glide, Slide or Ride...and know when to hide!
Peter
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east side underground
climber
paul linaweaver hilton crk ca
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Dec 26, 2016 - 09:17am PT
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most of us are not elite level skiers like you peter and have to "cheat" a bit with our gear. As ive gotten older technology has helped me stay in the game. RESPECT and cheers paul
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 26, 2016 - 09:24am PT
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900 Samolians for a pair of Bonna 2000s? Are you kidding me? Americans are sooo stoopid!
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Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
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Dec 26, 2016 - 09:45am PT
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In the early 1980s, there were few if any AT skiers in the High Sierra backcountry. Skinny skis and Telemark turn were the king. I was very interested in going into backcountry and my new California friends all said learn Telermark turn first...
But a Spanish friend had AT set up, said you know how to ski downhill and AT is just like downhill. So I bought my first AT skis.
Never felt better.
The Telemark turn must be learned and for most mediocre skiers (like me), that is not so easy to do. One needs to practice it quite a bit and it takes time to perfect it.
Over the years, (80s and 90s) I have been one of the few people skiing AT with Telemark geared friends and I can tell you, in the backcountry, the AT gear makes all the difference.
When the touring terrain got a bit steep, my excellent Telemark friends would revert to defensive skiing and I could just ski down with almost all the control needed to get down steeper slopes safely. With overnight packs on our backs, the control issue got even more pronounced.
If you are just like me, a mediocre downhill skier and want to go backcountry skiing NOW, I would go with AT.
And the fact, that today, you see AT set ups everywhere and the Telemark gear is getting wider and wider, and boots stiffer is good reason to think AT.
The Telemark turn is, by far, the most aesthetic, beautiful turn in skiing.
But it seems that one has to be somewhat devoted to it, practice it and live you skiing life for the turn. I always just wanted to go touring and approaching easy climbs in the Sierra in winter. And for that, AT seems to be the way to go.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 26, 2016 - 09:53am PT
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Alois, nice to meet you at the AAC dinner. I'm no Maysho but while I was a very good telemarker
I was an even better downhill/alpine skier. Your comments are spot on. I've skied things where
a fall would have been possibly fatal so heavy metal was a matter of survival not aesthetics.
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Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
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Dec 26, 2016 - 10:10am PT
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Reilly, likewise, it was nice to meet you at the AAC.
You have a very good point, the steeper the terrain, the more control becomes the issue and with telemark gear, the better skier one has to be. And as control becomes really critical, this becomes hugely pronounced.
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sempervirens
climber
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Dec 26, 2016 - 11:09am PT
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I agree with Alois & Reilly. Telemark is super fun and still, after over 30 years, my favorite type of skiing -- both in the backcountry and in bounds. But is there any other reason to have telemark gear, other than it's fun? If efficiency and ease of learning are priority I think you should go for the AT set-up. Most telemarkers are left behind by the AT'ers on the downhill backcountry runs. And the newer AT gear is about the same weight as newer stout tele gear so on the uphill climbs the tele gear has little or no advantage. If you enjoy pushing yourself then you could ski steeper runs in more difficult conditions on the AT than you could on the tele gear (as least that's true for most skiers - I've never met a tele skier who disagreed, if anyone does I'd like to hear their opinion).
When all things are aligned and you're in light powder, that tele turn is bliss. But in knee-deep sierra cement.... that locked down heel sure feels better.
Of course, no one ever gets tired of hearing the tele skiers talk of how they started tele-ing with leather boots and skinny skis back in 19xx..... truly fascinating.:)
Telemark, Norwegian for "wait for me".
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Dec 26, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
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to add to the a.t. pushback...
i've got pretty much the whole spectrum... a "wide" pair of metal edged cross country skis [with, if needed, kicker skins], a lightweight skimo a.t. rig, and then a range of increasingly wider a.t. setups for different snow conditions.
at this point lightweight skimo rigs [and if you wait/look and buy used you don't necessarily have to spend a fortune] don't weigh much more than cross country setups [the skimo setup that i have - which is by no means state of the art - weighs in at 8.5 pounds per pair with skins, boots, skis and bindings].
and in trade for a very small bit of extra weight, the biggest thing you gain in return is a much better ability to deal with varying snow conditions. most importantly imo, setting track with skinny skis [and all cross country skis, even the widest, are in my book "skinny"] in deepish powder is at best annoying, at worst a waste of time. point being a.t. skis are much more universal in what they can and can't handle...
and so while he makes a good case, i've read enough of Maysho's stories around here to also know he is an outlier. ie. if you time snow conditions just right and already have a bundle of cross country skiing skills then cross country rigs maybe better for a few individuals in a few circumstances.
as a rule though, i'll continue to argue that there is a reason my cross country ski setup [that i bought with the intention of using for big "a.t.-style" traverses] collects dust, except for the odd occasion it ends up going out on track set groomers: it's just too narrowly focused with regards to the snow conditions that it handles well, to choose it over a lightweight skimo a.t. setup, at least for myself [and i'd bet for the vast majority of the population].
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Dec 26, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
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I believe the OP was pretty clear on the "moderate objectives" idea. Yes AT is more secure, easier to learn and all that. But Ostrander Hut or Tuolumne Meadows involves many miles of flat and low angle cruising and relatively moderate peak skiing. I don't proselytize for "my style" and thanks for the compliments on well earned outlier status etc. I like AT or snowboard for big steep things...but for "over hill and dale" enjoyable sliding fun...lighter gear and a lesson from Urmas and you will have years of great times!
No comments on the classic inspiring writings from Doug R.?
Peter
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Dec 26, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
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Maysho, et al... did not intend to be a proselytizer [though i unintentionally prob come off as such just due to sheer exuberance], nor did i think you were being one... it is definitely an endeavour with many ways to float a person's boat... and your quotes from Robinson are beautifully excellent ones...
had mainly just wanted to point out that lightweight skimo gear has come a long way in the last ten years and the spectrum between cross country and "a.t." is pretty much a continuum at this point... and that includes some near overlap at the heavyweight "back country" cross country and lightweight "a.t." ends...
regardless, hope you keep writing up new reports, 'cause those stories of rippin' through the backcountry on skinny skis are inspiring for sure.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Dec 26, 2016 - 05:15pm PT
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Ski whatever you got. BITD it was XC gear so we climbed peaks on them and did a whole lot of kick turns on the down. Then metal edge Tua's and leather boots, then plastic boots....always had fun. Tele gave way to AT but the skills learned in the process help me every day out. Now I'm mostly on a DPS Wailer 112 loving every moment of the skin track and descent. Don't matter what you're on just get out there.
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east side underground
climber
paul linaweaver hilton crk ca
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Dec 26, 2016 - 07:28pm PT
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yea braj i dont usually ski all the way down to the meadow but ive done the cache thing a few times i prefer the plateau. peace paul the proz tele sizer
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Dec 26, 2016 - 09:56pm PT
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For the moderate objectives, skis with scales are perfect - you don't want to be taking skins on and off, on and off, on and off...
For Tioga, carry at least kicker skins, you'll probably need them.
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Dec 26, 2016 - 10:00pm PT
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P.S. I wish I could do what Maysho does, so awesome! Although he probably uses $$$$$ in wax to get up those hills on skinny skis! (I'm curious, how do you get to Ostrander on skinny skis? I refused to use skins over the hill once and it was NOT worth the effort)
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Dec 27, 2016 - 02:53am PT
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Hi Cleo,
No, I use scaled waxless Fischer Rebounds (now Salomon 89's) for my quick light backcountry, if I am on skinny skis then I am skating typically the short Fischer Revolutions, virtually unbreakable, and easy to parallel turn on...though when I did the big skate past Ostrander via the Merced Crest and on to Mammoth I used full length RCS racers. Another time into Ostrander my son and I used the Revolution skating skis with skinny skins to get out to the hut fast, but we were dragging our snowboards behind, mid-90's likely the first time the area was snowboarded, we had a blast!
Peter
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Dec 27, 2016 - 07:46am PT
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Like Maysho, I prefer to not use gear any heavier than needed. For trips to the Meadows or Ostrander I like light fairly narrow X-C touring skis. I have a pair of scaled skis with NNN-BC bindings and a pair of narrow waxable touring skis with 3 pin bindings. I choose one or the other, depending on snow conditions. A couple years ago I scored a pair of 20 year old leather Merril 3 pin boots that had never been used! For $15!! and they fit perfectly!!! I use those whenever I go out with my waxable skis. I have kicker skins for them, but sometimes wax them if the snow is cold.
The sense of graceful efficient movement over snow is lost with wide skis and plastic boots. Sure, you get there, and enjoy the scenery on the way, but it's like the difference between hiking with a daypack, or a heavy backpack. You can carry a bunch of stuff in the backpack to make the trip comfortable, but you lose the freedom of movement and certainly won't feel like dancing!
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Climbnrok
Trad climber
LA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2016 - 06:18pm PT
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Going to try out some alpina bc boots with 60mm skis tomorrow on rental around the resort. Recon this morning showed snow all the way to the tioga gate if all goes well.
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