Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 63 of total 63 in this topic |
Climbnrok
Trad climber
LA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 23, 2016 - 04:30pm PT
|
Some background on my skill level and intentions.. I'm a pretty average skier generally. Getting into the seriously steep isn't my main target. I'm mostly looking to get out in the back country in the winter and cover some miles in a weekend warrior type style.
I'm seeing almost all AT setups for Sierra back country type trips. The guide companies appear to push the AT setups. If downhill performance isn't my main goal, what would be the downside of a NNN-BC type system? It seems like it would be more efficient/lighter, seriously less expensive, and have the ability to play better on the groomed trails like Glacier Point road or Tamarack. Even if I had to get a set of track width and a set of wide back country skis it would still be way cheaper than an AT setup. Is there some reason I'm not seeing why a NNN-BC system would suck for moderate Sierra fun?
And yes, I know I'm going to die... especially if I don't get a tele setup.
|
|
10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
|
|
|
Dec 23, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
|
Personally, I don't think the NNN-BC system is that durable. I would recommend a cable binding for mellow backcountry skiing. This will get you down some moderate to steep hills.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
|
Dec 23, 2016 - 06:30pm PT
|
An NNN/BC setup (waxless metal-edge ski, 75-90mm waist, BC touring boot/binding) certainly has its place. Lightweight, no need to carry skins, etc.. Lots to do on a setup like that. I use one early season. Fun? Certainly.
Mountains tend to be, well, mountainous, so AT makes more sense when you're getting into steeper terrain. Super-lightweight AT racing gear is getting popular but comes with a hefty price tag.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
|
|
|
Dec 23, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
|
I'm a huge fan of cross-country gear, including NNN BC. A couple of tips:
1 - boots matter way more than "metal edges" for surviving the occasional fast downhill. All skis have edges, and skiing on ice is no fun anyway.
2 - you want a boot with a stiff upper section/ankle. Some NNN BC boots are decent. If you're worried about downhills, go with a *very* lightweight plastic tele boot and 3-pin bindings. Something like the Garmont Excursion paired with the Voile mountaineer.
3 - having said that, long, straight XC skis will be faster than shorter, shaped, metal-edged skis, but the latter will offer more stability on the downhill. Note that Length, Shape, and Edge Type are all part of the equation. I use both, depending on where I'm going.
I've done the Yosemite trans-Sierra, Glacier Point Road, and Ostrander Hut trips on setups similar to these. For more hill-oriented skiing (in Tahoe), I use a lightweight telemark setup.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
|
|
|
Dec 23, 2016 - 07:40pm PT
|
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
|
|
|
Dec 23, 2016 - 10:07pm PT
|
I have a pair of waxless metal edge mounted 205s, I'd trade.
|
|
Mark Rodell
Trad climber
Bangkok
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2016 - 05:54am PT
|
From 1972-92, I spent some time on X-C skis. Yes I did some steep and high stuff, but my roots were in kick and glide, mostly off track. I moved to Asia and now have made steps to return to California. I sold my quiver of skis long ago so yesterday I went to a local ski/backpacking shop to check out x-c gear. Times have changed, of course. I saw the waxes wide offerings, all with metal edges and was not impressed. Then off to the side I saw a pair of Bonna 2000s. Cool, old wood. Then the price... 895.00
I smiled and walked out. Maybe I can golf today and then, later, hit the thrift stores for x-c gear that makes sense to this old pine tree hugger.
Oh, I am on holiday here in Redding.
|
|
Mark Rodell
Trad climber
Bangkok
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2016 - 06:30am PT
|
I skied a lot, light touring gear off many summits, many wild places, sometimes on wooden boards and soft boots. All skis have edges, otherwise they'd be logs.
|
|
10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2016 - 07:31am PT
|
I saw a guy ski off top of the old Mt. St. Helens in 1978 wearing light, probably edgeless, touring skis. Wore "heel locators," briefly popular & probably dangerous.
I had a pair of those, and fortunately never took any weird falls.
|
|
Hoots
climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2016 - 07:50am PT
|
From what you are describing in terms of tours, a NNN setup with some good boots and a pair of metal edged scaled skis (with some kicker skins or full skins) should suffice.
What you lose is edging power on firm traverses, the obvious down-skiing trade-off, and the ability to skin up slopes much greater than about 12 degrees without starting to slip backwards if you are going skinless.
OK, now off to enjoy the powder day!
|
|
enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2016 - 10:23am PT
|
I ski a fair amount in Yosemite and I would recommend simple 3-pin tele bindings with a wide Backcountry ski with a pattern on the bottom. For rolling terrain around here, putting on full skins all the time is a huge PITA.
I have the Rossignol BC 110 skis and love them.
Honestly, my ideal setup would be Voile Vector BC skis with a tech pin binding and high end Dynafit boots. A friend bought that setup last winter and was able to fly around the rolling terrain as well as crush some downhills. The scales dont really slow you down much unless your a true Alpine skier, but that sh*t is boring.
Edit: I would NOT recommend NNN style bindings or skinny skis that go along with them. Not durable or wide enough for BC touring in the sierras.
|
|
Mark Rodell
Trad climber
Bangkok
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
|
Take something simple and pure and max. it out until it is only available to a few. I loved the simple nature of x-c. What is more pure than three pins, wool and an open glade?
of wax...jack rabbit red or green... wet or dry....make a snowball and you decide.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2016 - 02:16pm PT
|
For "mellow Sierra touring" go for back country gear!
Medium weight cross country skis with the NNN-BC bindings/shoes is all you need.
Learn to Telemark. Take a lesson or two to shorten the learning curve.
Keep your pack as light as possible as presumably what goes up must come down and going downhill in any snow condition with a load is really not a lot of fun. Been there, done that more than once.
Even just coming out of Ostrander with a big pack in deep fresh powder on BC skis was a serious workout.
Coming down from Shepherd Pass with tele gear and a load was a BITCCH.
My ancient knees can't tele any more so it's either XC or AT for me these days.
Unless I'm specifically going for the steep and the deep I much prefer back country/Tele skis and a light pack.
Now I just need to finish my carpal tunnel surgery recovery and get me arse out there. At least I haven't missed many good powder days this year.
|
|
Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
|
You missed a good powder day today, high Traverse! I was telemark skiing on Mammoth Mountain today and it was wonderful! Of course the back country would have been great as well. Thank you for recommending telemark lessons. Folks can learn about some options at: skiwithurmas.com (shameless self-promotion)
|
|
kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
|
|
|
Dec 24, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
|
^ I've taken telemark lessons with Urmas as part of the Bear Valley Tele Fest. Seriously, it improved my tele skiing by at least 100%.
Not sure if its being offered again for 2017, but the season long program of 5 x 3 hr sessions for $399 seems like a good deal for anyone with easy access to, or living on the Eastside. Urmas is one of the best tele instructors on the planet.
https://skiwithurmas.com/season-workshops/
|
|
Climbnrok
Trad climber
LA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2016 - 11:29pm PT
|
Thanks for all the great feedback.
What's the smallest width ski you would consider taking up Tioga to Tuolumne?
|
|
Climbnrok
Trad climber
LA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2016 - 02:50pm PT
|
65mm too small?
|
|
east side underground
climber
paul linaweaver hilton crk ca
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
|
urmas is the man.......oh yea skinny skiis suck...heh heh heh
|
|
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
|
Get a splitboard
|
|
Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2016 - 04:29pm PT
|
Brick, guess how much you would have to pay for an Alpine ski or snowboard private lesson at Mammoth?
The answer is: $225 - $240 per hour! Telemark lessons are a much better value, although still way pricey. I've heard it said that skiing is returning to its aristocratic roots. Too bad, in my opinion.
|
|
ryanb
climber
Hamilton, MT
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2016 - 04:43pm PT
|
I do a fair amount of mellow touring on fat light dynafit gear after previously having various xc gear and I'll offer a dissenting opinion.
XC is great for forest roads but dynafit really shine for longer or more rugged trips and fresh snow even if steep stuff isn't involved.
1) Tech bindings release. A friend on tele gear blew out his knee last week after catching a tip in a bush. Minor epic ensued as we hobbled out as temperatures slowly dropped (it got to -15 F that night here in MT, good thing we were close to the car when it happened).
2) Its easy to clear ice and packed snow out of them and the boot sockets after sections of walking. Some of the NNN BC stuff can basically become non functional with minor ice. 3 pin stuff is better but still fiddly.
3) Breaking trail in deep snow is *much* easiest on fat light skis with heel lifters.
4) If you didn't grow up with skis on your feet it's a lot easier (and safer) to learn with locked releasable heels.
5) Fat skis give you enough float to actually ski low angle powder instead of needing to break trail downhill. Which makes it less tempting to venture onto the sleep avi prone slopes.
I'd say buy a used xc/light tele setup and give it a try if you want...lots of them show up as people upgrade to tech setups. If you get into it I suspect you'll want to upgrade as well.
If you shop deals a tech setup isn't that much more now that there are lots of options for and sales on light boots. Dynafit speed bindings can be had for ~200 from europe.
(Also: i've never skied in the Sierra, just the cascades and rockies so my opinion was formed by variable conditions and frequent brush. If the area you ski is truly a wonderland of deep spring snow conditions covering rolling alpine golf courses then I can see XC gear being a blast.)
|
|
rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2016 - 05:09pm PT
|
FS: Garmont Excursions size mondo 27 (9 to 9.5 ). $75 for supertopoers.
Only used a few times (too small).
I've also got some Karhu 10th Mountain waxless metal edged skis. I think they are 190s. Also only used a few times.
|
|
east side underground
climber
paul linaweaver hilton crk ca
|
|
|
Dec 25, 2016 - 09:20pm PT
|
tgt2 you kidding me the surface area on my fat skiis ill skin up way sttepper terrain than your pos epoke 600s anyday
|
|
Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 04:48am PT
|
Ha, heard the page from Sewelleymon!
I have enjoyed many miles of snowy Sierra up and down and across...on a now completely discontinued set-up...Fischer Rebound Skis then copied and refined by Salomon "89's" with Salomon BC boots and bindings.
Looks like Fischer currently has a similar but beefier set-tup with S-Bound series, and BCX6 Boots.
I agree that a lightweight set-up can be very enjoyable on the routes you are describing. However, most people prefer the security and stability that heavier gear provides on the descents. My needs were a bit off the mainstream track...I spent so much time as an XC racer that I always want to kick and glide like a racer when touring around. So for me, the narrower Salomon or NNN binding set up is going to be preferred, as it doesn't overhang the ski and drag on the track, or even in the loose snow when breaking trail. Most people enjoy shuffling along unhurried and that is cool, and a less streamlined and heavier set up is great.
At Ostrander, I could have that third cup of coffee, spend extra time discussing all sorts of interesting topics with Howard Weamer, let the crew break trail to the last switchback above the lake, then kick and glide like a racer up the skin tracks and catch them all in 10 minutes. Yes, I also had the fitness and balance to enjoy the extra challenge of tele-turns with the light gear, and if I occasionally fell, could sometimes execute an Aikido roll and come up gliding! Howard loved my set-up, and got a pair of the skis, but he preferred lightweight 3-pin boots, not having that total racer vibe, but he could still churn out three laps while the rest of the crew settled for two.
So, figure out what you really want. Lighter gear demands more awareness and sensitivity to the medium...you adjust to the little ripples and swirls of the frozen white, sometimes you adjust your schedule to allow time for the sun to soften the slope for the perfect conditions. The big and heavy gear can cut right across whatever is there, and you will fall less.
One of the best ski adventure I have enjoyed was Rock Creek to Mammoth in an 18 hour day with my son Braden, we both had that set-up. Kicking and gliding like champs on the long gradual uphills, pedal-jump turns down some wild faces...kicker skins for the steeper climbs.
I have chosen to engage the snow covered mountains with a style and practice best expressed in the words of my friend and mentor Doug Robinson...
"Our security increases as we apply more leverage, but along with it we notice a growing isolation from the earth...Perceptions dull and we come to accept a blunting of feeling in the shadow of security. Drunk with power, I find that I am out of my senses. I, tool man, long for immediacy of contact to brighten my senses again, to bring me nearer the world once again; in my security I have forgotten how to dance."
"Technology is imposed on the land, but technique means conforming to the landscape. They work in opposite directions, one forcing passage while the other discovers it...The goal of developing technique is to conform to the most improbable landscape by means of the greatest degree of skill and boldness supported by the least equipment."
Kick, Glide, Slide or Ride...and know when to hide!
Peter
|
|
east side underground
climber
paul linaweaver hilton crk ca
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 09:17am PT
|
most of us are not elite level skiers like you peter and have to "cheat" a bit with our gear. As ive gotten older technology has helped me stay in the game. RESPECT and cheers paul
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 09:24am PT
|
900 Samolians for a pair of Bonna 2000s? Are you kidding me? Americans are sooo stoopid!
|
|
Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 09:45am PT
|
In the early 1980s, there were few if any AT skiers in the High Sierra backcountry. Skinny skis and Telemark turn were the king. I was very interested in going into backcountry and my new California friends all said learn Telermark turn first...
But a Spanish friend had AT set up, said you know how to ski downhill and AT is just like downhill. So I bought my first AT skis.
Never felt better.
The Telemark turn must be learned and for most mediocre skiers (like me), that is not so easy to do. One needs to practice it quite a bit and it takes time to perfect it.
Over the years, (80s and 90s) I have been one of the few people skiing AT with Telemark geared friends and I can tell you, in the backcountry, the AT gear makes all the difference.
When the touring terrain got a bit steep, my excellent Telemark friends would revert to defensive skiing and I could just ski down with almost all the control needed to get down steeper slopes safely. With overnight packs on our backs, the control issue got even more pronounced.
If you are just like me, a mediocre downhill skier and want to go backcountry skiing NOW, I would go with AT.
And the fact, that today, you see AT set ups everywhere and the Telemark gear is getting wider and wider, and boots stiffer is good reason to think AT.
The Telemark turn is, by far, the most aesthetic, beautiful turn in skiing.
But it seems that one has to be somewhat devoted to it, practice it and live you skiing life for the turn. I always just wanted to go touring and approaching easy climbs in the Sierra in winter. And for that, AT seems to be the way to go.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 09:53am PT
|
Alois, nice to meet you at the AAC dinner. I'm no Maysho but while I was a very good telemarker
I was an even better downhill/alpine skier. Your comments are spot on. I've skied things where
a fall would have been possibly fatal so heavy metal was a matter of survival not aesthetics.
|
|
Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 10:10am PT
|
Reilly, likewise, it was nice to meet you at the AAC.
You have a very good point, the steeper the terrain, the more control becomes the issue and with telemark gear, the better skier one has to be. And as control becomes really critical, this becomes hugely pronounced.
|
|
sempervirens
climber
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 11:09am PT
|
I agree with Alois & Reilly. Telemark is super fun and still, after over 30 years, my favorite type of skiing -- both in the backcountry and in bounds. But is there any other reason to have telemark gear, other than it's fun? If efficiency and ease of learning are priority I think you should go for the AT set-up. Most telemarkers are left behind by the AT'ers on the downhill backcountry runs. And the newer AT gear is about the same weight as newer stout tele gear so on the uphill climbs the tele gear has little or no advantage. If you enjoy pushing yourself then you could ski steeper runs in more difficult conditions on the AT than you could on the tele gear (as least that's true for most skiers - I've never met a tele skier who disagreed, if anyone does I'd like to hear their opinion).
When all things are aligned and you're in light powder, that tele turn is bliss. But in knee-deep sierra cement.... that locked down heel sure feels better.
Of course, no one ever gets tired of hearing the tele skiers talk of how they started tele-ing with leather boots and skinny skis back in 19xx..... truly fascinating.:)
Telemark, Norwegian for "wait for me".
|
|
nah000
climber
no/w/here
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
|
to add to the a.t. pushback...
i've got pretty much the whole spectrum... a "wide" pair of metal edged cross country skis [with, if needed, kicker skins], a lightweight skimo a.t. rig, and then a range of increasingly wider a.t. setups for different snow conditions.
at this point lightweight skimo rigs [and if you wait/look and buy used you don't necessarily have to spend a fortune] don't weigh much more than cross country setups [the skimo setup that i have - which is by no means state of the art - weighs in at 8.5 pounds per pair with skins, boots, skis and bindings].
and in trade for a very small bit of extra weight, the biggest thing you gain in return is a much better ability to deal with varying snow conditions. most importantly imo, setting track with skinny skis [and all cross country skis, even the widest, are in my book "skinny"] in deepish powder is at best annoying, at worst a waste of time. point being a.t. skis are much more universal in what they can and can't handle...
and so while he makes a good case, i've read enough of Maysho's stories around here to also know he is an outlier. ie. if you time snow conditions just right and already have a bundle of cross country skiing skills then cross country rigs maybe better for a few individuals in a few circumstances.
as a rule though, i'll continue to argue that there is a reason my cross country ski setup [that i bought with the intention of using for big "a.t.-style" traverses] collects dust, except for the odd occasion it ends up going out on track set groomers: it's just too narrowly focused with regards to the snow conditions that it handles well, to choose it over a lightweight skimo a.t. setup, at least for myself [and i'd bet for the vast majority of the population].
|
|
Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
|
I believe the OP was pretty clear on the "moderate objectives" idea. Yes AT is more secure, easier to learn and all that. But Ostrander Hut or Tuolumne Meadows involves many miles of flat and low angle cruising and relatively moderate peak skiing. I don't proselytize for "my style" and thanks for the compliments on well earned outlier status etc. I like AT or snowboard for big steep things...but for "over hill and dale" enjoyable sliding fun...lighter gear and a lesson from Urmas and you will have years of great times!
No comments on the classic inspiring writings from Doug R.?
Peter
|
|
nah000
climber
no/w/here
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
|
Maysho, et al... did not intend to be a proselytizer [though i unintentionally prob come off as such just due to sheer exuberance], nor did i think you were being one... it is definitely an endeavour with many ways to float a person's boat... and your quotes from Robinson are beautifully excellent ones...
had mainly just wanted to point out that lightweight skimo gear has come a long way in the last ten years and the spectrum between cross country and "a.t." is pretty much a continuum at this point... and that includes some near overlap at the heavyweight "back country" cross country and lightweight "a.t." ends...
regardless, hope you keep writing up new reports, 'cause those stories of rippin' through the backcountry on skinny skis are inspiring for sure.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 05:15pm PT
|
Ski whatever you got. BITD it was XC gear so we climbed peaks on them and did a whole lot of kick turns on the down. Then metal edge Tua's and leather boots, then plastic boots....always had fun. Tele gave way to AT but the skills learned in the process help me every day out. Now I'm mostly on a DPS Wailer 112 loving every moment of the skin track and descent. Don't matter what you're on just get out there.
|
|
east side underground
climber
paul linaweaver hilton crk ca
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 07:28pm PT
|
yea braj i dont usually ski all the way down to the meadow but ive done the cache thing a few times i prefer the plateau. peace paul the proz tele sizer
|
|
cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 09:56pm PT
|
For the moderate objectives, skis with scales are perfect - you don't want to be taking skins on and off, on and off, on and off...
For Tioga, carry at least kicker skins, you'll probably need them.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2016 - 10:00pm PT
|
P.S. I wish I could do what Maysho does, so awesome! Although he probably uses $$$$$ in wax to get up those hills on skinny skis! (I'm curious, how do you get to Ostrander on skinny skis? I refused to use skins over the hill once and it was NOT worth the effort)
|
|
Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2016 - 02:53am PT
|
Hi Cleo,
No, I use scaled waxless Fischer Rebounds (now Salomon 89's) for my quick light backcountry, if I am on skinny skis then I am skating typically the short Fischer Revolutions, virtually unbreakable, and easy to parallel turn on...though when I did the big skate past Ostrander via the Merced Crest and on to Mammoth I used full length RCS racers. Another time into Ostrander my son and I used the Revolution skating skis with skinny skins to get out to the hut fast, but we were dragging our snowboards behind, mid-90's likely the first time the area was snowboarded, we had a blast!
Peter
|
|
Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
|
|
|
Dec 27, 2016 - 07:46am PT
|
Like Maysho, I prefer to not use gear any heavier than needed. For trips to the Meadows or Ostrander I like light fairly narrow X-C touring skis. I have a pair of scaled skis with NNN-BC bindings and a pair of narrow waxable touring skis with 3 pin bindings. I choose one or the other, depending on snow conditions. A couple years ago I scored a pair of 20 year old leather Merril 3 pin boots that had never been used! For $15!! and they fit perfectly!!! I use those whenever I go out with my waxable skis. I have kicker skins for them, but sometimes wax them if the snow is cold.
The sense of graceful efficient movement over snow is lost with wide skis and plastic boots. Sure, you get there, and enjoy the scenery on the way, but it's like the difference between hiking with a daypack, or a heavy backpack. You can carry a bunch of stuff in the backpack to make the trip comfortable, but you lose the freedom of movement and certainly won't feel like dancing!
|
|
Climbnrok
Trad climber
LA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 27, 2016 - 06:18pm PT
|
Going to try out some alpina bc boots with 60mm skis tomorrow on rental around the resort. Recon this morning showed snow all the way to the tioga gate if all goes well.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
|
Dec 28, 2016 - 06:47am PT
|
That's be a fun setup for touring, which sounds like your objective.
If touring leads to the desire to go higher/steeper, then make the jump to AT. Having both in your quiver only expands your horizons.
|
|
Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
|
|
|
Dec 28, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
|
AT sucks bad for touring - you can't flex your foot.
I'm a huge fan of old-school alpine skis with cable bindings, flexible boots and skins. When I want to climb, I don't want to slip or herringbone. And you can don and doff skins very quickly without taking off your skis. In certain conditions, I can skate even with skins in place.
P.S. Flailing on wimpy narrow skis is not dancing.
|
|
Jay S
Mountain climber
Silver Gate, Mt
|
|
|
Dec 28, 2016 - 07:54pm PT
|
Last winter I skied from the southern sierra to oregon.
My setup was a light tele setup.
Madshus annum ski (109 in the tip) with fishscales
Scarpa T 4 boots with an upgraded liner
Light cable binding
I find this setup handles the flat funky terrain better than AT gear.
I had every I had every condition imaginable and this setup handled it all. I thought about switching to a lighter narrower ski several times then would get hit by a storm and liked the wider ski for trail breaking.
Free heel gear is the only way to go for long touring!
|
|
10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2016 - 06:18pm PT
|
I skied both Alpine, and Nordic gear. When I toured, I preferred my telemark skis.
I hated my first Alpine bc tour because the gear was so much heavier.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
|
Dec 29, 2016 - 06:36pm PT
|
Forrest,
That's a setup circa 2003 or 2004. That makes the plastic on that binding at least 12-13 years old. Might have a few years left in them but you don't want binding failure in the backcountry.
If you could get them cheap you could ski them at the resort and maybe some sidecountry. But I'd be hesitant to go too far away from a trailhead.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 07:22am PT
|
Forrest, "cheap" and a backcountry powder-oriented AT setup aren't exactly synonymous :).
If there's a backcountry ski shop near you I'd check with them. Some have swaps or consignment gear. Used rental gear is another good option as a starter. The shop folks could check the used gear out for you, help with boot fitting, etc. If powder's your goal a ski with a 95mm+ waist is nice. Your snow might be lighter; Tahoe snow can get heavy.
|
|
OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
|
|
|
Dec 30, 2016 - 09:16am PT
|
A lot of great advice earlier in this thread, but I thought I'd throw out my piddly pennies.
Unless you get good at tele skiing, I have not been able to find a combination that makes for "fun" cross country skiing and "fun" downhill. Perhaps Ryan's skinny patterned skis with dyanfit bindings and race boots would come closest without learning to tele (I took a class for a season in college, it takes longer than that). I just ended up with multiple skis.
For about $250 I got some soft xc boots, NNN bindings, poles, and some non-metal edged skis. You can probably do better if you look used. I use these when I plan to mostly ski mellow rolling hills, logging roads, or groomed xc tracks. They are a lot of fun in that you are more "running" on the snow, moving quickly and enjoying the kick and glide. I never get that feeling with skis with skins on. Skate skiing is even better but that's another story and hard for me off groomed tracks.
My second set started out with some used dynafit boots and a lightly used setup with dynafit bindings and bc skis around 88 underfoot. I think it was around $700 for everything, again you have to get a bit lucky. This lets me get up and down most everything. Not as much fun on the logging roads but it works. I ski these if I want to enjoy the downhill part and make real turns, sometimes I ski em at a resort too. I have since gotten some 105 mm underfoot skis that I much prefer for anything fresh or crusty. My narrower skis now only come out in the spring for ski mountaineering and longer traverses. I highly recommend a dynafit style binding (there are many "tech" bindings out there now). You don't have the weight of a frame binding going up and down on your foot with each step and overall the binding can be much lighter. I don't huck cliffs or ski so aggressively that I pop out which seems to be the reason some people like beefier bindings. I'd rather travel as light as possible but I don't have the skill to not lock my heel down.
You will NEED new boots unless you already have backcountry/randonee ski boots. You won't be able to skin without ankle flex (at least it would really suck). I would start with boots that fit and then beg borrow skis/bindings which can all be adjusted. Or just enjoy an XC setup and kick and glide till you save some money for something that will get you back down the hill.
Just my opinions as a mediocre skier who went through this all a few year ago.
Also don't forget to leave some $ for an avalanche class, or maybe do that first. Don't go out there if you aren't aware of avy conditions and have the tools (beacon/shovel/probe) and partner and skills.
|
|
kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
|
|
AT sucks bad for touring - you can't flex your foot.
Not sure if I understand SLR's statement, but some AT boots now have a large degree of articulation at the ankle in walk mode.
Scarpa Aliens, some race models from La Sportiva, the Dynafit TLTs (5 thru 7), Dynafit DY.N.A. EVO and even the Vulcans, have a large range of movement forward and back. They are very comfortable for touring and allow a longer stride than stiffer boots. Though not recommended practice, I know a snow industry professional or two who sometimes drive wearing TLTs, as they provide sufficient flex and feel when you need to jump in the truck and are in a rush. These boots were initially quite expensive, as many of those with "running shoe" flexibility and light weights were made for randonnee racing. Such advances have trickled down to cheaper boots for ski mountaineering, but be sure to check the design particulars. There are still LOTS of heavy clunky AT boots that do NOT have high degrees of articulation.
Here's a good (race boot) comparison from http://www.skintrack.com/boots-comparison/
These are specialized boots, many of which are great for ski mountaineering, and beyond the scope of what the OP wants to do.
|
|
Spiny Norman
Social climber
Boring, Oregon
|
|
The most frustrating day skiing on the wrong gear is better than the best day arguing politics on Supertopo bump
|
|
rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
I've had days in the BC (glazed breakable crust interspersed with patches of super dry wind packed powder) when I really would have rather been at home arguing on ST. :)
Most people consider me an expert skier, but falling every 30 feet, and breaking through every time you try to set a edge can make for a miserable day. Ever seen a grown man cry? And then take his skis off and post hole down the god damn hill. :)
|
|
10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
|
|
I've had days in the BC (glazed breakable crust interspersed with patches of super dry wind packed powder) when I really would have rather been at home arguing on ST. :)
Most people consider me an expert skier, but falling every 30 feet, and breaking through every time you try to set a edge can make for a miserable day. Ever seen a grown man cry? And then take his skis off and post hole down the god damn hill. :)
lol, because I've almost been there.
|
|
ryanb
climber
Hamilton, MT
|
|
OlympicMountainBoy just to clarify I'm usually doing my mellow tours on *fat* light skis... g3 synapse at 109 underfoot. But they only weight about 1300g each so similar to a pair of karhu guides/madasu anums and much much easier to break trail with which I end up doing a lot. (First world skier problem: all my mellow tours have too much powder!)
I'd go with something a little skinnier for general use or for consolidated snow. In fact i was shopping for something skinnier and I bought the 109's mostly because they were a screaming deal but I haven't exactly been reaching for my old skinny skis for anything but carving in bounds.
Also come to montana!
|
|
Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
|
|
I'm not talking ankle flex - I'm talking foot flex. The difference between a boot with a rigid insole (like alpine and AT ski boots) and a flexible insole (like hiking or tele boots).
A 2 week tour on AT gear gave me a serious case of plantar fasciitis.
|
|
Scoop
Mountain climber
Truckee, CA
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2017 - 11:47am PT
|
In my experience wax-less or fish scale skis work well on low angle fresh snow but are near useless on corn, frozen or creamy. I would suggest considering at least carrying a set of kicker skins.
I also don't think the weight of a two or three buckle AT boot, dynafits and a ski like the voile vector or BD hello 95 is that much more than an NNN set-up, and sure has heck gives a lot more control and flexibility for terrain and conditions.
|
|
TeleK
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2017 - 01:05pm PT
|
This is why you want a whole quiver of skis. I've got my powder boards, spring touring set up, a lighter spring touring set up on Fischer BCs, and a XC ski with NNN-BC.
A pair of my NNN BC set up weighs just as much as one of my Fischers. I can get to the TM hut in a lot less effort using my NNN BCs... but if I want to make any turns, I don't use them. And use one of my other set ups. There's no quiver killers for skiing...
So... if you want to just do some flat touring off groomers, then get the NNN-BC set up. If you want to make any turns... then get the ATs. If you want to do some of both, you'll need both.
|
|
allanc
climber
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
|
"Do you ski?"
"I telemark"
"Don't you feel guilty about calling people during dinner?"
I ski on everything from skate (poorly) to AT. My wife says
I have too many skis. The truth is I don't have enough.
For the Sierra, I'd go for lightest plastic low-cut
teleboots (old T3 or T4 or whatever is current). It has turned out to
be the best compromise.
NNN-BC and below just don't have the boot support and stiffness
needed. If you had the stiffness, you'd rip the binding apart.
The T3/T4 with good inner boots are warmer and won't
significantly slow you down on the flats (we're assuming that
you're probably breaking trail or behind 1 other person and
not skating the glacier point road out and back.)
It's never mentioned, but the stiffness and beefiness also helps
when you're trying to slog through a couple of feet of Sierra cement
and don't want your feet sliding off the sides of your skis.
I should make up some skiing fortune cookies that say
"You will ski through cement"
"Your wax will not stick" "You will break out the klister"
"You will fix something with duct tape"
AT is just too uncomfortable and slow for doing anything other than a
skin up, and let's face it, you probably shouldn't be pushing your limits
20 miles into BFE. Once you get adept at tele, T3 will allow you to ski
almost ANYTHING, telemark or parallel style. I've seen guys doing
jump turns with low-cut cable gear down 50+ degree chutes and more.
The good thing about AT, is that it gets people with downhill experience
into the backcountry on something within their comfort zone.
(they probably should start by parallel skiing with some T2).
If I was going to do a short ski into a base, and then spend a couple of
days yo-yo-ing a glacier or runs on some hardpack, or corn, or suncupped stuff,
yeah, AT. The problem is that you get a little of that sandwiched in with
some cement, some powder, some breakable crust, some junk, AND it's 10 miles in.
Tele is stable in a lot of junk. Even lift service, I hit teleturns here, parallel
there. High tele, low tele. It's a flexibility you don't get with AT.
My dynafits are close in weight to the heavier tele, but speedwise on the
flats, they lose. Uphill, it's the same. Downhill, AT wins on speed, but you
really really want to ssssllloooowww down anyway. Several times I've seen
how much hassle it is getting a stokes litter in to pull out a skier with
a broken leg.
It's the difference between doing Royal arches with 4 nuts and 3 cams and
doing it with doubles #00 to #4.
Having either a touring mode or way of unlocking the cable and just
using pins is a big plus. The old Rainey (cable only) and Voile (3pin+cable)
have been my mainstays. (The bomber bishop are my favorite downhill)
For skis, I'd go with single camber and moderately wide (with a little
sidecut). Wide helps with the flotation. Light is good. I got a free
pair of superleggera _aluminum_ edged telemark skis I still haven't mounted and tried.
You're not sacrificing much on the speed with single, and it makes even mellow
downhills a blast. The double cambered telemark just take a lot more to
carve and turn. I might change mind if the trip involved a lot of
flats or covered roads and I really wanted to wax. I really detested the waxless
fishscale double cambered telemark. I would always choose
longer/narrower over shorter/wider, mainly for the flotation/flats aspect).
I'm not using 210's anymore, but 180-185 is good for me. You can make the
long ones turn quick if you practice.
Go real short if you're going to be stomping dense brush/trees or something
like you have on the East coast.
One last thing. You can mount hinged crampons on plastic tele or the
heavy 3pin leather ones. None of the tele boots I've tried frontpoint well.
Save your rigid crampons for AT. And neither work very well on any of
the xc boots
|
|
Mar'
Trad climber
Fanta Se
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
|
Somebody above mentioned not being able to flex on AT gear/boots. The kind of AT binding that accepts mountaineering boots permits flexing at the ankle, which is perfectly acceptable for linking tele-turns as well as for painless touring.
It actually takes a modicum of subtle technique to hang out in rigid boots all day/every day. Ya can't fall asleep at the wheel. It's not hard~ just a subtle flat-footed hesitation between each foot-flex. Foot ailments are operator error in most cases. Rigid boots require precision.
I've been skiing on full-metal-edge 130cm AT skis (100-75-90) since about 1981. There are two Austrian 130cm skis distributed in North America by Hagan.
Silvretta Sas Fee cable-bindings are still available new on ebay as as well as Ramer's mil-spec derivative. Silvretta 300s are not so common, nor are the Silvretta 500 LSV AT binding which was discontinued a few years back. Yet there are eight pairs of Silvretta 500 LSV bindings for sale on ebay right now.
Any mountain or AT boot will work with these bindings. You can actually climb rock or ice with the boots on your rig …never could say that about a flexy 75mm or BNC boot.
I live in Santa Fe now, but the Pacific maritime range snow I remember is kinda heavy, as I recall~ short skis and burly bindings work real guuud with skins-- it's possible to kick and glide just like god intended~ and especially at the end of the day or in the shade with skins on~ keeping things under control can actually be a reasonable proposition!!
|
|
Climbnrok
Trad climber
LA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 19, 2017 - 09:44pm PT
|
Should have posted this recap a while ago. Sorry.
So I tried out the NNN-BC setup. You guys that said there was no control and you can't turn well were right. The boots didn't feel like they had much support making it even more work to stay on my feet. Plus the auto bindings were way too touchy with some snow in them. I'm not sure how much of it was me sucking at skiing in general (probably a lot), but I'm going to have to say that setup was leaving way too much fun on the table. Flats were fine. Uphill was fine. Any sort of down hill was rough. Probably would not recommend to a friend.
I think next up I'll try out the light AT setup, like TLT7 or Atomic Backland with some 80-90mm scaled skis. I know REI is the evil empire, but they have the Backland boots in stock in LA which saves me driving back to Mammoth to try on boots. They are light, got pretty good reviews, and are supposed to have about as much flex as you can get in walk mode apart from the super high end arc'teryx stuff.
I was going to say that maybe this whole skiing thing isn't for me, but since now it doesn't look like the Sierra will thaw out until next year I better give it another shot.
Thanks for all the great feedback.
|
|
crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2017 - 10:08pm PT
|
My 2 cents...keep the current setup for light/medium, taking the dog out touring.
If you get the AT boots, couple them with a traditional backcountry ski and skins, not a ski with "scales" (waxless base). Better turning ability.
The one exception is if you're just doing mellow tours, then the waxless-base ski would be ok. Either way, spend the $ for a Dynafit or similar tech binding.
Take them to a resort and get used to them on groomers for a day or two. More forgiving than backcountry snow.
|
|
ryanb
climber
Hamilton, MT
|
|
|
Jan 19, 2017 - 10:22pm PT
|
These guys seemed to do alright in the sierras with light AT setups. Scarpa aliens, voile vector BC's and race bindings. Setups like there's show that at gear can now be far lighter than cross country gear of equivalent warmth and versatility.
Voile just announced a new "ultra vector" ski so the current ones should be starting to get discounted including the scaled BC version. That, backlands, tlt6's, f1s or similar plus some dynafit speed (turn or radical) bindings should take you just about anywhere with snow.
|
|
allanc
climber
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2017 - 12:34am PT
|
> I was going to say that maybe this whole skiing thing isn't for me, but
> since now it doesn't look like the Sierra will thaw out until next year
> I better give it another shot.
Don't give up whichever way you go.
The rewards are high and the crowds are low.
Seriously consider starting with parallel style, tele gear. Most of the
downhill skiers I know that started were competent going downhill right away.
Eventually you stop mashing that outside ski, and learn
that dropping a foot back a few inches makes you more stable in crud.
Low cost option is to hit CL. When my daughter's feet were growing,
I don't think I paid more than $30 for any pair of plastic tele boots.
Older teleskis with bindings can be had for $30-50, and you can beat them up
without guilt while you build the skills for what you really want.
|
|
cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
|
|
|
Jan 20, 2017 - 06:56am PT
|
Sorry but my experience has been cc gear is way too restrictive. Soft boots and skinny little skis give you no command the minute you get off the flats or the groomers. Trees are impossible in CC gear.. Yes the lightweight AT gear is expensive but One has to have it to ski the backcountry, especially peaks. Which at some point in the not too distant future I bet you will want to do. It's a natural evolution which will require AT or Tele gear. So How to reduce that initial investment? Wait for end of season sales, you can save Big. Got a new Dynafit set up 40% off, same for a new pair of K2 Coombacks( this ski is Master and Commander of any and all snow conditions) Now another way to save ,Forget about color coordination, Buy demos. You don't have to buy new. Mix and match. There are number of very good manufacturers.This gear is seriously burley. It's going to hold up. Last year I got in 140 days(I am semi retired )80 backcountry. This makes the 7th season for my TLT 5s. Liners are done, toes are getting chilly when I am out all day now, But the shells are still bomber.
2 last things, 1- your boots really need to be fitted by an expert. 2- dedicate yourself to learning about Snow for as long as you travel the Backcountry. Avie courses.. are the way..
|
|
| Messages 1 - 63 of total 63 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!