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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Sep 11, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
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Vast waves of Respect and sympathy for anyone and all dealing with loved ones moving on....
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Again if I still need to apologize to The Brave Cowboy?
I'm sorry for my interloping a year or so ago, I had no right to add my two cents.
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John M
climber
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Sep 11, 2016 - 03:27pm PT
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Goodness Rodger. I am so sorry that you have had to go through this with your wife. What a tough thing. And then not to be able to see her now. I am so sorry.
nahooo.. I agree with you that there is a part of a person that can die when faced with overwhelming loss. In my opinion it is a part of ones spirit. A kind of spirit spark of life. And it can be snuffed out and it is very very difficult to relight it. Yet I also know that it can be relit. Though then it is very small and must be protected and encouraged to grow. I hope that if this is your experience, then that one day it will be relit for you.
Thanks Yosguns for sharing these words. I see a lot of wisdom in them, though like nahooo, I also know that the waves can overcome one.
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yosguns
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2016 - 05:42pm PT
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Just continued reading the thread and wanted to respond to Rodger. Thank you for sharing. When I hear experiences like yours, I'm overwhelmed by our ability to keep on in the face of a series of tragedies. I hope you have peaceful moments now, in between the grief. Much love to you, Rodger.
Thanks to everyone on this thread. It's really meaningful to me and helping me heal in a lot of ways. I'm impressed by you all and your courage.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 11, 2016 - 05:50pm PT
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Thanks for sharing this Allyson. Everything the old dude shared resonated well with me.
Someone here commented on the possibility of not surviving the 100 foot waves. I have a different philosophical view of that. I think the reality is we all can survive any storm. Whether or not we choose to do so is a function of our free will. There is a space between what happens to us, what we perceive, what meaning we assign to it, and how we choose to respond. For some that space is not cultivated. Some of us may not have been tried in various ways to build up this conviction that we can survive anything, or to be aware of that space between input and output. Some of us attach a meaning to the fact that we can survive, and we don't like that meaning: that it somehow diminishes the significance of the relationship or the respect for the other person or the profundity of our own feelings.
I was about to say I would not have empathy for someone that chooses not to exercise their free will to survive the storm. But it brings to mind conversations I have had with my mom (who is still living). She is a stubborn person who wants to live and die on her own terms, and I think I can gracefully accept her future choices even if I disagree with them. In the end none of us knows what it is like to not just walk in another's shoes, but to walk in their shoes as them. Having a broader cosmic perspective of these things seems to make it easier to live and love and let other's live and love and die and see that the world keeps hurtling through space and spinning on its axis.
I belief we all experience grief in our own way, that it need not be correlated with an outward expression of suffering, or even an inward expression of suffering per se. But because of our limitations in understanding the world and our place in it, we typically suffer. I like to think of suffering as an internal reaction we have to hurt ourselves in the wake of something external that hurts us. Understanding suffering in this way and choosing to transcend it or experience our emotions of grief apart from suffering is not at all the same thing as forming a wall and locking off an emotional response. The difference is about facing suffering directly, understanding it, experiencing it and learning from it, and transforming it and remembering this transformation to change our perception of it in the future, versus being afraid of it and hiding.
Roger, I'm sorry for both you and your wife. It sounds like the disease robbed you of the opportunity to be there for the person you spent a lifetime loving. It can be messy holding the truths of the love and good times you shared along with the painful parts in the end. At least in your case you have a name and a diagnosis for the affliction that came between you, that hopefully makes it easier to let go of whatever resentment or suffering and extra meaning that you might have otherwise ascribed to the loss of connection. Hopefully it makes it easier to live in the sort of purgatory now where you know this person is out there going through their stuff without you, and you without her, and it seems you didn't have much of a choice in that.
There are so many ways to be emotionally challenged in this life... makes me want to appreciate the little things we experience in the here and now because we don't know what's around the corner.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 11, 2016 - 06:31pm PT
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I found the best antidote to experience such as the one I went through, was to remain intellectually active--read a lot--participate in some blogs online, etc. My interests are still keeping me in a positive frame of mind, and the times I' m still able to get out climbing are the frosting on the cake of life. Thanks to all here for the kind words of support!
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Sep 11, 2016 - 06:42pm PT
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Rodger,
I am so sorry for your loss. And being in this "in between" has to be painful as well. It has been almost 5 years since Doug left, and yet I find myself thinking of him many times a day. The grief is leveling out, but there are still the occasional tsunamis. I am still part of a grief support group for people who have lost their spouses to cancer, and a large part of my healing has come from their love and compassion. Doug still has a place in my heart, and also in my life history. There are so many events when I want to share the happiness or the comedy or the adventure with him, and that is still a yawning chasm of a hole. I don't know if things ever smooth out or balance entirely: I think we learn a new balance as we live each day.
They say that sorrow shared is sorrow halved, and joy shared is joy multiplied. I think that is true. I am glad you felt safe enough and loved enough to share here. It says a lot about the loving support we share among us.
Peace to your Heart,
feralfae
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Sep 11, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
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Brokedownclimber: thank you for sharing. if that was a rant, i hope you or someone like you is at the helm if shIt ever really hits the fan [again] for humanity on this earth... if anyone is deserving of an actual rant it would be you and so your apparent ability to continue to put one foot in front of the other, given what you've experienced, is a powerful one. all the best...
NutAgain!: yo it's me... someone... while i appreciate your well written and thoughtful post i believe there is a danger in what you've written. while there is no harm in believing [specifically in your case because it is likely true] that one's own self can survive any [emotional] storm, i believe it is dangerously assumptive/dismissive to transfer that view onto the rest of humanity... given what i've seen in my lifetime, communicating [explicitly or implicitly] that view to another human who is truly in the thick of it, would be as helpful, due to its imo mistaken nature, as saying to a cancer patient that their ability to survive is a function of their free will... from what i've seen, humans have emotional carrying capacities, just as they have physical carrying capacities and because of the intertwined nature of the physical and the emotional, the largest waves can truly overturn the generally resilient vessels that humans are comprised of... point being is that, i would put forth that sometimes the last thing someone in the midst of an emotional battle needs to hear or have implied to them is that in another person's opinion their ability to survive is only a choice. or that what they are experiencing is only a passing wave.
even if the vast vast majority of the time it is only that...
[but again, sincere thanks for sharing and writing what you did...]
John M: sorry for the confusion, but i was fortunate to have a lot of support surrounding me when i was in the thick of it. so no sparks [that i'm aware of :) ] were snuffed out, temporarily or otherwise...
yosguns: thanks for starting this thread... it's been helpful.
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JOEY.F
Gym climber
It's not rocket surgery
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Sep 11, 2016 - 09:24pm PT
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BDC I cannot imagine that ongoing struggle, waves for you must be tsunamis.
And to everyone else here, thanks for posting. We have all a common bond.
I lost my kid sister 15 months younger than me last April. An unneeded death, over prescribed for pain meds. Maybe I will post a pic. We were basically twins. A 60 year relationship.
Well she was a gal, and lots of fun, and for some reason this rings true when I think of her.
I hope this is not making light of this thread.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 11, 2016 - 09:29pm PT
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Thanks Nah00, I think you're striking closer to the heart of it than I am. I still believe in the abstract sense that we all can weather anything if we have the will to do so. But in practice that will is a resource that varies between people and is subject to prior cultivation or life experience to be ready to use it. Sort of like physical conditioning, we need to have emotional/spiritual conditioning to handle more demanding situations. The old adage "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger."
I'm going to tuck this away for times when I'm struggling to tap into compassion, when people seem like they are giving up. Definitely a trigger issue for me in many scenarios.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Sep 11, 2016 - 09:45pm PT
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^^^^
cheers, NA!...
regardless that i am generally in agreement with what you write, i always enjoy the oft found honesty and openness found in your posts...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Sep 11, 2016 - 09:52pm PT
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When things were getting me down--I fell back on what the platoon sergeant in my basic training company always told us: when the going gets tough, the tough get going. Thanks, Sergeant Bradford! Go Army!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 12, 2016 - 12:27pm PT
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Wonderful piece, and wonderful timing, Yosguns. This year my mother passed away in January, (at age 104), and a day before you posted, we buried my father-in law (at age 95). My father, who was born 115 years ago, passed away 39 years ago.
Even though my mother lived an amazingly long time - most of it in good health - and my father and father-in-law's deaths ended their suffering, it doesn't mean I don't miss them and think about them often. I, like the other older person whose comment you posted, don't want death to be something you just get over. I can't see how I can treasure someone without regretting their loss.
And like Lynnie, I know that losses of other things (in my case, my career, wealth, reputation, status and, briefly, freedom) can cause grief that never really disappears.
What I find perhaps paradoxical, however, is that I can remain optimistic, content and, for those reasons, fundamentally happy even though I have plenty of grief to carry. In my case, I think that was God's gift, but I also think that we can give ourselves permission to engage in self-pity that almost never leads to good things. It took a while to learn to "do the next thing," but doing so, while still acknowledging loss, forms my essential coping mechanism.
Thanks again for both the content and the timing of your post, Yosguns.
John
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Sep 12, 2016 - 12:52pm PT
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There's a special kind of enduring loss and grief caused by custody lawyers and family court that is causing a lot of children to be separated from loving parents. It's leading to lots of suicides and also to a large group of behaviors associated with fatherlessness. All human rights are predicated on the protection of children. The betrayal is complete when an indifferent institution dismantles this fundamental relationship. Society should take this seriously.
I'm not a suicide guy but I can assure you that I'm also broken in some foundational and frightening ways. I was a really decent and hopeful guy. Now, I scare myself. Only my son matters now. Luckily, his love protects the universe from the black hole where my heart was. Feels shitty most of the time. But there is hope for him so I muddle along trying become human again.
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bixquite
Social climber
humboldt nation
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Sep 12, 2016 - 01:11pm PT
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Paddle towards the waves that seam illuminated. Dig deep and when you catch the glide in the butter cup spot on the wave, rise to your feet. When we stop thinking and lay into that first bottom turn, the feeling of returning comes over you. Keep your eyes open for the illuminated, be they boulders, people, waves or music. The depth of this pool can be felt when you drop in deep and aim for the copping.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Sep 12, 2016 - 01:16pm PT
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everything that happens is supposed to happen? i have a hard time with that philosphy, but i guess there is some truth to that,
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Sep 12, 2016 - 02:09pm PT
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Caught inside on a big set
Broken leash
Lost board
Crunch corner it's called
And it's the only way out
How long have I been here
How many waves
How many sets
How long can I stay under
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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Sep 12, 2016 - 04:29pm PT
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 13, 2016 - 12:45am PT
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hey there say, yosguns, and all,
will share a bit here, later...
thanks for posting this...
so many can really use this, all through life, in fact,
for any kind of grief...
say, flip flop... just sent you an email,
at the ol' taco address here...
well, will try to share something, next week...
also, brokedownclimber, my
condolences and prayers for you, for all
you have gone through, with your dear wife...
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 13, 2016 - 08:42am PT
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Suffering the pain of loss is really just a manifestation of our own righteousness in being able to have loved in the first place.
Humans are just so clever in our ability to confirm ourselves! I expect all those Trump supporters feel the same way about themselves for supporting Trump.
You loved them for a good reason beyond all the bullsh#t
Thanks for that Jim! :-)
Me, I've got a lot of our human bullsh#t too, like our unwavering need to believe that we're right, that we're righteous, for whatever beliefs and emotions and behaviors our brains (have evolved to) lead us to.
Well, maybe I have less of that one than a healthy human should have, but in our survival of the fittest belief processes, healthy is the trump card, regardless of the truth. Can we forgive ourselves (and others) for that, without actually believing it? Probably not - we believe and behave the way that humans believe and behave.
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