Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 03:15pm PT
|
Hey Cragman, what does Robert's age and breeding status have to do with anything?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
|
Robert L = Bad ass dude .....
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
|
Yeah, and his "ex girlfriends" are probably bad ass dudes too.
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 04:10pm PT
|
The problem with reading political threads here is that it really runs down my opinion of climbers I used to respect. That Robert L though, he's alright.
|
|
k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 04:12pm PT
|
And, you want to take the country back to where or when?
It's not to where or when, ya ding-dong. It's from who.
The who is the folks who have hijacked this country and are stomping on the democracy upon which our country was created.
If you think this is a county by the people, for the people, then you've got a pretty narrow view of who the people are.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
|
It doesn't matter if trump said a phase in, unless he vetoes what the republicans want to do. Do you believe that he will at least threaten that?
It's a legitimate question. I don't know the answer.
The fact is that politics is incredibly dynamic, with politicians moment-by-moment living finger-in-the-wind. What they said they would do doesn't mean that they "want" that same thing now.
Notice that the Democrats completely ignored the Republicans (and half the nation that was their constituency) and foisted off Obamacare on us. The vast majority of Americans are significantly worse off for it, and people know it now.
We were just expected to just choke on it and live with it, even though it cost most of us LOTS more money. Then, it turned out that all sorts of "insured" people realized that the bronze plans they could afford (even with subsidies) were NOT really insurance! A $6000 annual deductible is NOT insurance, unless you are one of the few that spends significantly more than that per year! So, even those natives started getting restless. But we were still told to just choke on it.
We were lied to, and the fact that they were known-at-the-time lies is now well-known: "If you like your doctor, you can keep him; if you like your insurance plan, you can keep it." Etc.
So, let's say that now the Republicans end up similarly screwing a segment of the population by instantly repealing Obamacare. I'm not minimizing how horrific that screwing will be. But the point is that government has for a long time been in the BUSINESS of screwing subsets of the population. If it's "your turn" to get screwed this time around, just remember that "we" didn't get it "our" way during the Obama years either. We were told to just bend over and like it as MOST of us got royally screwed by Obamacare!
Eventually, people are going to tumble to the FACT that a "gridlocked" government is a government that can't get anything done, which means that it can't screw anybody with some new law/policy, which means that however bad the status quo is, it at least isn't going to be actively pushed toward worse!
Liberals are the worst form of optimist, as they insanely believe that with a bit more tweaking and a bit more tweaking, always to "fix" the messes they created in the first place, they ARE going to make everything all "better" in mastermind fashion. But that is NOT what happens, and Obamacare is not a "step in the right direction!"
Government was never supposed to have its fingers into every pie as it now does, BECAUSE it lacks the fine-grained awareness to properly manage all those little pies efficiently, fairly, and in timely fashion. And when liberals compare the USA to these European socialist democracies, they fail to recognize the VAST differences between our society and theirs, such that what "works" there cannot in principle work here (among them: size, homogeneity, founding principles, perception of the relation between the individual and the collective, and many more).
What we have now is the federal government run amok, just as the anti-federalists feared. Now, literally, the best you can strive for is to get YOUR people into power, so that they will screw over the people you want screwed over. It's no more lofty or "moral" than that.
You liberals WANTED the middle class to get screwed over to provide health-insurance for the "poor." EVERYBODY recognized that Obamacare was a flagrant effort to steal from the middle class and hand money to the "lower" class. You flagrantly screwed Peter to pay Paul.
You got your way. You DID totally screw over the middle class. My company REALLY felt the effects, and we literally did not make a hire we had planned to, due to the effects of Obamacare. My family suffered personally, as our spending power went down considerably. Any way you try to slice it, you STOLE money directly from my company and from me personally (and more than 100 million other people just like me), so that you could have your Obamacare. Any way you slice it, you decided, literally, to rob Peter to pay Paul.
Now, Peter is reacting! Yeah, Paul is horrified, because when you rob Peter to pay Paul, you will always have the support of Paul. But now Peter is back in power, which horrifies Paul. So, what does Peter want to do now? Well, of course, to screw Paul back!
I've said it countless times, and I'll say it again, radical liberalism brought this election result on itself (in many ways). Peter is back in power now, and he is gonna screw Paul. It's sad and even pathetic. And to the extent that we're talking "screwing," I'm NOT with Peter.
But if Obamacare is instantly undone, then we're back to the spot we were before Paul screwed Peter. We're not yet at the point of Peter screwing Paul. And at least then you have the hope that Peter will be magnanimous enough to figure out some way that Paul can have a path to satisfaction also. I still hope that Peter isn't going to be relentlessly aggressive and reactionary now that he's regained power. And if he wants to retain power, he'd be smart to be magnanimous!
Any way you cut it, "we the people" are aroused on both sides of the 50/50 divide! Politicians are going to be scrutinized more closely than before. I seriously doubt that Trump and congress are going to flagrantly screw-over Paul right away. Tensions are at an all-time high, and nobody wants a civil war.
But what do I know?
|
|
ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 04:33pm PT
|
^^^
haha
lengthy screed that no one will read (LSTNOWR)
glad you got it off your chest!
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 04:44pm PT
|
The one thing that keeps me going are the lessons that human history, overall, has shown an unmistakable, upward trajectory in "civilizing tendencies", so well documented in Steven Pinker's, The Better Angels of our Nature. This is a blip to the negative, not unlike the wars of the 20th century (pretty big blips, for sure). Progress in civilization involves, as much as anything, the capacity for empathy for our fellow human beings - particularly those who aren't your family or share your same religion. We can only hope that this blip lasts only 4 years.
|
|
wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:01pm PT
|
I don't know the answer
No lengthy explanation. Lol.
What will he do,not one of you knows.
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:13pm PT
|
subject those children to things that rob them of their innocence
Sure. Like that median black wealth is 1/13 median white wealth. Let's see how that changes under Trump. We'd prefer raising our black children in a town with 0% African Americans than to rob them of their innocence by subjecting them to that truth.
My childrens' innocence has not been robbed by respecting other people's dignity. Quite the opposite really.
We never really notice the bullshit of our own partisan political conformity.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:22pm PT
|
Notice that the Democrats completely ignored the Republicans (and half the nation that was their constituency) and foisted off Obamacare on us. The vast majority of Americans are significantly worse off for it, and people know it now.
i am better off for obamacare. my insurance covers my 22 year old sons pre existing condition until he is 26.
his state of the art care is about $18,000 per year, without which he may even require more costs to manage. without it, his quality of life will suck. while i can afford his care, i know that my insurance costs will not go down after obamacare is abolished as they will now cry that they have fewer customers.
i have a very difficult time believing that our country can afford to spy on anyone on the entire planet in the name of terrorism and national security, but they refuse to take care of their own. that does not equate to the greatest nation on earth.
in fact, you 2nd amendment guys would rather have your f*#king guns and suppressors than taking care of the sick kid next door. makes me want to stick your gun right up your right wing ass. at least you would then know you own it motherf*#ker.
edit:
not only that, in your case madbolter, you probably want to stop abortions. so your anti government hypocrisy throws more sh#t on your face as you clearly don't want to take care of some kid who was born to a mother who should have had an abortion. guys like you want to regulate a womans womb but by god keep my guns free. f*#k you and everyone like you.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:23pm PT
|
You liberals WANTED the middle class to get screwed over to provide health-insurance for the "poor."
wasn't me... so not sure who you mean by "you liberals". I wanted universal health care but I wanted and still want a single payer system which takes the profit motive out of health insurance. We pay in the neighborhood of 20+ percent of our health care costs to insurance management + profits. What liberal leadership gave us was not what I wanted.
But my options were very limited. Vote for a Republican who would do nothing, or vote for a liberal who didn't do a very good job.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
|
lengthy screed that no one will read
Okay, since you can't read, you can watch a video. And there you have it in a nutshell:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
"Somebody's got to pay for all...."
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:33pm PT
|
Vote for a Republican who would do nothing, or vote for a liberal who didn't do a very good job.
Which makes the point that the best choice is to do nothing rather than to do a bad thing. By doing nothing, at least you don't actively screw people over! The people that are screwed remain screwed. But a subset of society is ALWAYS going to be screwed! There is no "fixing" that.
When you actively screw people "trying" to "fix" what cannot be fixed, namely that there are ALWAYS going to be screwed people, you just make things worse for everybody.
You cannot "mastermind" your way to utopia. If you see something that you think simply MUST be "fixed," then devote YOURSELF to the fixing, and try to pull people voluntarily into your cause. But don't FORCE me onto your bandwagon, because I have no confidence in your (or anybody else's) capacity to "mastermind" the "fix" at the federal level.
The feds have their fingers of "active management" in FAR too many pies at this point.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:37pm PT
|
Notice that the Democrats completely ignored the Republicans (and half the nation that was their constituency) and foisted off Obamacare on us.
That's incorrect. The public option was removed to placate the Republicans.
|
|
thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:37pm PT
|
TLDr; TBDW. all i got was "fingers in pies"
so gary why do you swim here? surely there are canals near to the both of us.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
|
It's not divided if you look at all the red on the map Nice try.
But, if you ignore that nonsense, and look at the actual results of almost every one of the states you get a much more realistic picture of just how divided it really is.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:42pm PT
|
so gary why do you swim here?
Swimming completely trashed my shoulder. All I can do now is backpack and scramble.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
|
That's incorrect. The public option was removed to placate the Republicans.
That's incorrect. The Republicans rejected everything about the bill, and they were not "placated" by the removal of the public option. The republicans didn't want the feds in the healthcare business, and that's right.
The appropriate role of the feds in this situation is in the sense of anti-trust. They have every legitimate right, and indeed a constitutional duty, to implement legislation to ensure that healthcare costs (I'm talking about the supply side rather than insurance) are not abusive nor out of touch with actual costs.
Plastic is dirt cheap. Forming it into a syringe is dirt cheap. Transporting that syringe to a hospital and putting it on a shelf or in a drawer is cheap. So, when a syringe costs $100 (I've seen it on the bill!), there is no way that the supply side is doing things right. Somebody is getting wealthy somewhere in the supply side chain before that needle ever enters my arm and I'm billed $100 for just the syringe part of that treatment!
Rein in costs, and the cost of insurance will naturally go down, naturally making it more accessible to all. By contrast, making us all pay exorbitant insurance bills while leaving the supply side untouched just encourages further abuse (including, at that point, by the insurance companies themselves).
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!