Falling while Jumaring/ Jugging

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Jack Phillips

Trad climber
Rescue, Ca
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 25, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
On the off chance a following climber were to fall out of his or her ladders while also dropping the ascenders, or in the very off chance that the ascenders fail, would the 2 daisy chains attached to the ascenders be the only fall protection from falling the length of the line? I have heard you can tie a backup knot, figure 8 or overhand, but I don't totally understand that idea. Could someone explain in what part of the line I could tie a backup know to protect falls in addition relying on the ascenders and daisies to hold.
Thanks,
Jack
WBraun

climber
Jun 25, 2016 - 09:22pm PT
You can put a prussic or an klemheist knot to back you up if you're paranoid.

That way you don't have to keep tying backup knots.

Or use one of the many mechanical type back up sliding pieces available on the market.

The best policy is be ultra conscious when you're jumaring of your ascenders positions on the rope at all times,

By peripheral vision ......
ecdh

climber
the east
Jun 25, 2016 - 09:22pm PT
First, put keeper biners thru the tops of the ascenders. That takes care of several variables.

Second, tie overhands or clove in a biner either every 15-20m or get the heebiejeebies.

At least thats what i do, but theres people here who REALLY know this sh#t.

Time spent getting good at jugging doesnt hurt. Its not just yarding upwards, theres good and bad to it that reduces risks.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jun 25, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
The 2 ascenders and the slings which link them to your harness back each other up.
Normally you are also tied into the end of the rope.
If you are about to take one ascender off the rope, the mutual ascender backup will disappear.
So consider you far you will fall if the remaining ascender on the rope fails.
If the fall would result in a bad injury, then you have the option to tie an overhand loop knot in the slack rope just below your lower ascender and clip it to the belay loop on your harness with a biner.
This is what's called the backup knot, or "tying in short".
Alternatively, like Werner said, you could use a 3rd device, like a GriGri on the rope below your lower ascender. Or a sliding knot.

A week ago, I was climbing on Washington Column and a team of 4 was retreating from Dinner Ledge.
One of the climbers had been ascending a fixed rope above Dinner Ledge when one of his ascenders failed while he was moving the other one. He fell and a backup knot as described above prevented him from hitting the ledge. However, it was a static rope, so it was a very jarring fall.
Like Werner said, the best approach is to prevent the fall in the first place.
So use reliable ascenders and know how to use them well.
I believe the ascender which failed in this incident was the older Black Diamond N-Force which has been recalled.
I have also (briefly) used the oldest model Petzl Ascender and had the upper ascender slide down the rope because I didn't have a biner clipped to prevent the cam from getting pushed away from the rope.
I use the original grey Jumars. However, Werner has seen this model fail when the spring broke which normally pushes the cam against the rope.
Everything can fail in the "right" circumstances, which is why a backup can be wise.
Jack Phillips

Trad climber
Rescue, Ca
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2016 - 09:56pm PT
Thanks Clint,
I understand how redundancy is key, so I would probably be safest with the 3rd device option, however if I were to tie overhands clipped to my belay loop with a beener ever 20 or so feet, would I leave all those overhands attached to my harness accumulating knots as I acsend, or would the best option to be: every new knot clipped afterwards untie and drop the previous?
Sorry for so many in depth questions, Im just having trouble figuring out the setup without being on the wall.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jun 25, 2016 - 11:52pm PT
I don't usually do them every 30 feet; only do them when I'm going to take one ascender off the rope and the potential fall looks bad.
But if you want to do lots of backup knots, you can just put as many as you can on one biner, then add another biner, etc.
On the Column a week ago it was very windy, so I was making lots of "backup" knots,
mainly to keep the loops from getting too long and blowing around the corner to maybe get hung up.

A 3rd device is not necessarily safer or "more" redundant than knots. Just faster.
Crazy Bat

Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
Jun 26, 2016 - 05:45am PT
Also,if you think you are going to fall try to make sure your ascnder is above you center of gravity. They just are not designed to take a fall and have been known to cut into the rope if enough of a sharp force is applied.
Prod

Trad climber
Jun 26, 2016 - 07:02am PT
I use a Modified Gri Gri, and take all of the slack out when I am removing 1 ascender.

Prod.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Boise, ID or the fricken Bakken, variously
Jun 26, 2016 - 01:28pm PT
^^^^^ This. All hail the Gri-Gri.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 26, 2016 - 03:41pm PT
The follower is typically tied into the end of the rope.

But he must not allow a gigantic loop to hang down as he goes up the pitch. The wind will blow that loop WAAAAAAY off to the side, and then inconveniently drop it over an intractable flake or spike that can't be reached, except by a cursing, swearing and swinging leader dropping down from the upper belay on a separate rope. In a best case scenario, a gigantic loop will catch on a downward-pointing flake, requiring down-jugging and whipping the rope around to free it.

One way to avoid creating a giantic loop is to tie overhand knots in the rope every 20 feet or so, and clip them to the harness with a big locker. The resulting loops only hang down 10 feet, which is generally manageable.

These overhand knots also back up the ascenders, and keep you from falling all the way to the end of the rope if they fail.


You can also stuff the rope into a rope bag worn as a bandolier, stopping every 20 feet to do this. But, you will want to tie an overhand knot in the rope, and clip it to your harness, so that the small loop that hangs down doesn't pull the rest of the rope out of the bag.

Again, it's usually a good idea to tie overhand knots and clip them to the harness, to manage the rope and for safety.




Watch out on traverses. Jumars are notorious for coming off of diagonal ropes. The little safety catch is not as effective as you might think. Clip a carabiner at the bottom of the jumar around the rope. Put a prusik above the top Jumar, with a sling long enough that you can take that jumar off the rope, and move it above a placement. Tie and clip backup overhand knots in the rope.



Cleaning pitches with a gri-gri clipped to the harness, and one jumar for a foot is quite effective. It is much easier to lower out on traverses using a gri-gri, than it is to down-jumar the rope out as you swing off to the side. The gri-gri is also more bomb-proof and fool proof than a jumar. I use a dedicated, stainless steel Bonatti locker for my gri-gri, because I am always paranoid up there.

You can pass the rope coming out below the gri-gri through a carabiner on the jumar, to act as a 2:1 hoist to make it easier to ascend, especially if wearing a heavy pack. You pull down on the rope as you stand up on the jumar sling, and it pulls you up, and pulls the rope through the gri-gri at the same time.



For straight ascents of fixed ropes, there are better, easier and faster methods than the classic Yosemite jumars-and-aiders set-up, or a gri-gri and a jumar.

For example, a jumar can be clipped low on the harness, with a bungee/shock cord necklace connected to its top, to keep it upright. A second jumar is placed on the rope with a loop for both feet. The upper jumar is grabbed with both hands. and the climber alternately sits and stands to go up the rope. For me, this is by far the easiest way to get up a fixed rope, unless the angle is really low. For free-hanging lines, this is by far the least strenuous technique I have ever used. You pinch the rope between your feet as you stand up until there is enough rope weight below you to pull it through the harness jumar.


Using the classic Yosemite set-up on a free-hanging rope is like doing an endless series of one-armed pull ups. You can use a carabiner clipped to a chest harness to keep from falling over backwards, which takes a lot of the strain off the biceps. A runner twisted in a figure-8, with the two loops clipped at the chest, works as a makeshift harness.



BTW, when attaching and detaching a gri-gri from the rope, it is not clipped to anything and can be rather easily dropped. It's a good idea to use 3mm cord as a clip-in loop. Jumars don't have this issue.



It is not a matter of IF you will drop things on a Big Wall; it is only a matter if WHEN you will drop things. Put clip-in loops on EVERYTHING.
BigB

Trad climber
Red Rock
Jun 26, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
Ok, so piggybacking on this thread, since it's active.
I need your guys help...
I just jugged for the first time today and it was a SH#TSHOW!!!
My problem was the lower ascender, every time I slid the upper ascender up the rope it would create slack in the rope that would make it so the lower ascender wouldn't slide up the rope. I would have to manually release the ascender(climb techs) each time and wiggle it to get the rope to feed thru and allow the ascender to be moved up.... WTF was I doing wrong???
I was tying a back up knot every 15' or so... I was thinking maybe it wasn't allowing enough rope weight to create the tension needed???
I have a grigri and can use that instead of back up knots but it seems that'd be just anther device to reach down and have to pull the slack thru... What am I missing?!?
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Jun 26, 2016 - 08:22pm PT
BigB,

that's the main disadvantage of tying knots in the rope every 15-20'. Having the weight of the rope from below allows the lower Jumar to slide up more easily. When you tie a knot that takes weight off the rope.
BigB

Trad climber
Red Rock
Jun 26, 2016 - 08:38pm PT
Bruce, thanks for the response!
If you watch the supertopo vid of how to do it(low-angle) ChrisMac literally runs up the rope... how is he getting the rope to stay that weighted/tensioned?
Even without back up knots... he's not very far off the ground, not much rope weight yet...
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 26, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
I'm not familiar with your brand of ascenders, but Jumars and Petzl are pretty easy to use. You just use your thumb to pull the ratchet down, and they will generally slide right up a rope. It takes some practice to not absent-mindedly keep your thumb on the ratchet when you go to step on that jumar's foot loop.


If the teeth on your ascenders are really sharp and aggressive, they can snag rope fibers and create problems.


One trick is to use your right foot (upper jumar foot) or knee to pin the rope to the wall. You raise the right foot while sliding the upper jumar, and then press the rope the wall. The lower jumar then slides up easily.


A longer loop between overhand knot backups can be useful, but be wary of those long loops snagging on flakes, dislodging rocks, etc.

When you tie the overhand knots, leave a five or six-foot loop hanging down. Don't tie them as close as you can.



I've (almost) always used the Gri-Gri with one jumar, not both jumars*. I clip the Gri-Gri to the harness, and use a jumar and loop for one foot. I often take the free end of the rope, below the Gri-Gri, and pass it through a carabiner clipped to the jumar. To go up, the motion is to sit and stand, sit and stand. When standing up, pulling down on the free end of the rope lifts you, and pulls it through the Gri-Gri.

Or, you can just grab the free end of the rope at the Gri-Gri, and pull it up and through the device each time you stand up on the jumar foot loop.



Jugging efficiently takes practice. Chris Mac running up a rock wall can be compared to LeBron James scoring 50 points in a game. You aren't going to be able to do that, the first time you try.

Chris Mac might have had a water bottle clipped to the end of the rope, to facilitate his special effects video stunt work.




*One time, on Son of Heart, I had to go up a fixed rope that went up and left over the big Heart Roof. There wasn't going to be enough rope to lower out, so I was going to take a HUGE free-hanging swing when I let go of the belay anchor. I used a Gri-Gri, two jumars and a prusik knot. And I tied an overhand in the rope, and clipped that to my harness, too. That was a pretty wild ride. People below starting monkey hollering and yelling when they saw me go.

Then, I had to VERY carefully go up, and not bounce on the rope at all. The rope was anchored about twenty feet past the lip of the roof, with plenty of rope stretch potential there to allow a disastrous sawing-effect if I were to bounce around on the way up. Luckily, I had led that pitch, and knew the anchor was that far back from the lip. I just moved very slowly and deliberately, and if I started to bounce on the free-hanging rope, I would immediately stop and wait.

Great fun. But, don't try that at home, kids.

Go to the Valley, and do it properly.

Mule Skinner

Social climber
Bishop
Jun 26, 2016 - 09:23pm PT
By a micro trax or pro trax and jug away you are backed up by the device and the knot at the end of the rope
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jun 26, 2016 - 09:46pm PT
I've (almost) always used the Gri-Gri with one jumar, not both jumars*. I clip the Gri-Gri to the harness, and use a jumar and loop for one foot.
This might be a useful technique for special circumstances,
like ascending a free hanging rope or a long traverse.
But for most pitches, it's not as fast as using both your legs, one on each ascender/aider.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jun 26, 2016 - 10:55pm PT
I use the gri-gri and jumar thing for cleaning steep aid pitches. For traversing pitches, the gri-gri method also seems better.


On lower-angle terrain, there is no question that the standard jugs-and-aiders Yosemite system is faster. On low enough rock, you can just jog up, with your feet out of the aiders, like enhanced Bat-Manning.

But, if I'm having to dangle on a near-vertical wall, while yanking out pitons, or screwing around with cams that have been trapped by an expando flake, a gri-gri and one jumar seems better than two jumars.


I've cleaned pitches both ways, even during a single climb. I have occasionally had to use the both jumars and the gri-gri. It just depends on what you are dealing with up there.

The more techniques you know, the more options you have available for making things easy and safe.



I like the idea of using the Pro-Traxion as a self-belay when jugging. I've never done that, but it seems to make sense.

I don't like those Pro-Traxion things for hauling heavy loads, though. I have used one for that, and (at least that older design) was not really up to the task.
BruceHildenbrand

Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
Jun 27, 2016 - 12:17am PT
Listen to what Clint has to say! He's an ace when it comes to jumaring. Poetry in motion!
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jun 27, 2016 - 01:09am PT
It wasn't so poetic a week ago when I was following the Kor Roof with the wind howling and a pack with 4L of water dangling from my harness! :-)
Still made it OK, but it wasn't pretty!
Prod

Trad climber
Jun 27, 2016 - 05:25am PT
Or, you can just grab the free end of the rope at the Gri-Gri, and pull it up and through the device each time you stand up on the jumar foot loop.

+1.

Prod.
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