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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:35am PT
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I love drilling on the lead...never rapped a route in yet in my life.....only to add bolts to some of our run-out nightmares of yesteryear.....Rap bolting, for me, takes all the fun out of it.....what a shame....won't do it. My granny can rap bolt....(You should see her bolt on the lead......)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:39am PT
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Right on Todd. I'm with you.
Of course some places kind of work with rap bolting. I just don't get much interested in doing new routes there. Leave it to those who get it.
I want the whole experience.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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Nov 11, 2006 - 01:48am PT
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I know this, that well used old Bosch of mine is about to be reconfigured along the lines described on Fish's site. It's been a good tool but with tired batteries it's pretty weak.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Nov 11, 2006 - 02:09am PT
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By hand or w/power....each has advantages. But bathooking is universally WEAK!
Sorry for the old photos...but Blitzo beauties
There ya go HG....gettin moist yet?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Nov 11, 2006 - 05:23am PT
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heheh....
Any woman worth her salt would have to agree that the middle picture of Blitzo's is.....ummmm...worth thinking about.
An incredible chunk of airy rock, legs splayed....swingin' that hammer....
I bet half of you GUYS would rather fantasize over that picture that the bubble-wrapped blond.....
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 11, 2006 - 08:58am PT
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Nothing says "bring it down to your level" like pro bolts.
I feel like a pilgrim in an unholy land.
Steelheads...grasping for guide book glory. Too bad you couldn't do the climb as God gave it to you, and felt the need to wield the steel instead of muster the custard...
To place bolts any closer together than 150' is just plain vanilla weaksauce.
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Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
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Nov 11, 2006 - 09:02am PT
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Ken Trout on Childhood's End.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 11, 2006 - 10:35am PT
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Believe me, Ken's done some rapping in his day.
ECF you ARE in an unholy land. What can you do?
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 10:44am PT
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I guess that limits the El Cap routes you will do.
Ken
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 11, 2006 - 11:25am PT
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The blame lies in placing the bolt, not clipping it.
Rivets don't violate the principle, as they serve a different purpose.
Why is toproping unprotectable sections so shunned? I fail to see the logic that it is better to place bolts to keep from decking, than to rig a top rope. That's what it is all about, isn't it, to not die? One way permanently alters the rock, the other does not. How can anyone feel that alteration is the better way? It flies in the face of every argument of "preservation". The only benefit is the ego boost of getting the "redpoint".
If you are climbing with a safety net (rope), the only measure of purity is to what degree the rock was altered to allow passage.
So, please explain why it is better to lead with permanent artificial pro, than to TR off a temporary rig? The way I see it, if you don't fall, you climbed it. Period. The details of an unused saftey net are inconsequential.
I feel I am being clear, but won't be at all surprised to be misunderstood.
Not trying to pee on anyone's parade, just food for thought.
Ron, all I can do is preach. It is up to the individual to accept the message into their heart, or not. It's freewill, baby! Ain't it grand?
Ken, a man is only limited to the scope of his own imagination.
And when all my gear got stolen, that pretty much limited the number of routes I can do to zero.
I apologise that this is coming off as personal. My beef is with bolting, not climbers who bolt.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 11, 2006 - 11:42am PT
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Oh, you mean sportclimbers? Don't waste your pity...
I pity the tall skinny blonde dudes that don't see the value in preserving natural resources.
Anybody ever confuse you with Mr. Way?
Any time you have clipped one of those bolts and breathed a sigh of relief, did you pause to realize that you prefer not to challenge yourself past certain limits? And that a challenge with limits is really no challenge at all?
I thought you were all about "pushing the standards"? Sounded good when you said it, but living upto it is proving to be a little humbling, huh?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 11, 2006 - 11:45am PT
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Wait a minute, elcapfool
Last I knew, warbler doesn't rap bolt. He puts up very proud ground up routes.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 11, 2006 - 11:51am PT
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What principle don't aid rivets violate? A bolt or two (or three) placed on lead for free climbing seems to me a more challenging and fulfilling climbing experience for the first ascenders, and for those who come after. Those photos above show bold climbers establishing really good routes, in my estimation. But, there is room for different styles/ethics of climbing, for sure.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 11, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
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Rivets are not placed 'in case I may fall', they go in with an admission of failure to come up with a solution to the problem presented by nature. To continue to the summit when no other means exist. But bolts are to limit danger, and that is a personal choice with irreversible consequences.
The question posited is why is bolting better than TR-ing?
By drilling a bolt, you are admitting "this is as far as I am willing to push myself, but I am still more rad than you".
I'm taking the Devil advocate position here to elicit a reponse to why freeclimbers think it is OK for them to alter the rock, but aid is a contemptable activity practiced by knuckle-dragging cave men.
Kevin started it....
See, I told you I'd be misunderstood.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 12:07pm PT
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Take that!
Ken
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 11, 2006 - 12:16pm PT
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EC,
alter it once and for good, or alter it with every ascent and without concern for the results?
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 11, 2006 - 12:19pm PT
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Ken- Fair enough, LOL.
Sorry I didn't first state my prime directive first, everyone gets to do what ever they want. That means you get to bolt, Kevin get to say aidclimbing is lame, and I get to ask why alteration is acceptable for some people but not others.
And admit it, without the conflict, the Taco stand has no salsa.
Ron,(with all respect due a well armed man) see Wikipedia-"clean aid". But we really aren't talking about aid here. My point is, continue to where you can get natural pro, or TR it.
Hell, bolt it if you want to, but be prepared to hear about it 'round the fire.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 11, 2006 - 12:23pm PT
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I'm trying to understand, but I just don't see how a line of rivets is better than widely-spaced bolts. I think both are OK, used sparingly and artfully. And neither one is as damaging or unsightly as a trail cut through wilderness, which we all use in our forays into the heart of ourselves.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 11, 2006 - 12:31pm PT
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Jeff, a hole is a hole, so you're right on that. And essentially, that is my point too. The difference being, that theoretically, the freeclimber could have continued on without the bolt.
And look at the Freeblast. When the technology advanced, the rivets were removed, a somewhat elitist act, but done with the proper intent. Was Robbins chastised for placeing them, no.
You think a trail is bad, what about the road that gets us to the trail...
Does anyone have anything to say about topropping?
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Nov 11, 2006 - 12:40pm PT
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I've had mango salsa that somehow harnessed all the heat of the sun in a single spoonful.
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