Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 93 of total 93 in this topic |
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 10, 2006 - 04:44pm PT
|
I have allways prefered to drill on the lead. Mainly because I remember and enjoy the experience better.
I find drilling by hand almost easier than using a power drill and it is a lot less scary. The thought of falling with a power drill is terrifying. Here are a few random power drill shots.
Ken
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2006 - 06:35pm PT
|
Now I've only set bolts for anchors and never a protection bolt, but powerdrilling on lead seems a bit of an oxymoron to me. That and my TE-6a exacts a significant weight penalty and I wouldn't want to fall with it flying about. Hauling it up from the belay also seems a bit ridiculous - hand drilling with something you brought up with you seems like it should remain the "kosher", non-contrived option.
|
|
randomtask
climber
North fork, CA
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2006 - 06:41pm PT
|
Those are some good pics!
Healyje,
you don't have to haul the drill all the way from the belay, you can rig it so you only have to haul from the last bolt, the balayer keeps the drill on "belay" with a jumar or something...
-JR
P.S. Drilling a face ?? I thought those were for cracks!
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2006 - 06:43pm PT
|
wait till you try the 50' extension cord/giant battery pack method. Only drawback is your runouts can only be about 50' between bolts. Oh well.....
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2006 - 06:48pm PT
|
I know some of you guys are going to post some dicey 'at stance' drilling pictures....I have one, from someone who shall reman nameless, that even I could tell was wickedly difficulty to hold while sinking the bolt.
You guyz may think that the girl in saran wrap gazing out upon a Jtree pile was hot....but post you stance drilling shots, and....watch out!!!!
|
|
Nate D
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2006 - 06:53pm PT
|
Neato, Ken!
Yes, the experience is more memorable, but "enjoyable" is a bit of a stretch.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 06:53pm PT
|
If I was on a dicey stance I would never let my belayer take a picture.
Ken
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2006 - 08:40pm PT
|
My favorite part is when the drill gets stuck on your last bolt which is way below you, cursing and crying you finally get it free only to have to pull it up one handed(or have your belayer pull it up to you through a minitrax on your harness which is way scarier).
Drilling from a disentegrating hook placement, while you wait in dread of the PING is a close second.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2006 - 09:39pm PT
|
I have a waist pack battery arrangement with a supressor for my Bulldog. Even so I'll often enough place a temporary and then complete the job from the ease of a top rope.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 10:06pm PT
|
I like running two Hurricane handles with modified high speed steel bits. They dull after two holes but, I can drill a 3/8" hole in about 5 minutes in granite if I can swing the hammer freely.
Ken
p.s. Don't have to worry about losing battery power.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2006 - 10:15pm PT
|
Yikes
That's some real scary sh#t you guys are doing,
Man, oh man, scary sh#t.
Edit: Kenny 5 minutes? Wow! I'd be lucky to be under a half hour.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2006 - 10:34pm PT
|
Werner, It is true, I will show you my setup sometime. I use a grinder to chisel point the bits and it goes quickly if you can really swing the hammer. It is way faster than carbide tipped bits.
Ken
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Nov 10, 2006 - 11:25pm PT
|
How do you avoid altering the temper when grinding the bits?
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 12:22am PT
|
Ron,
I grind them for a short period on a grinding wheel and dip them in water and let them cool off. The initial grinding of them is time consuming. Once they are chisel shaped with the ends of the chisel lining up between the flutes, I only use them for two holes and it does not take much spiral grinding to line up between the flutes again. It is nice when they get shorter making for easier drilling. The bits are cheap and I have about twenty of them. It is nice to have a lot when grinding them as it is more efficient and easier on the temper.
I have only broken one bit and it was in a wierd Quarzite. I have just used them in granite other than that time.
Ken
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 12:27am PT
|
Ken, is there nothing equivalent or equally effective available commercially these days?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 12:30am PT
|
Yeah, I did the same thing back in my hand drilling days. Oops! I mean when I use hand drills.
Not familiar with your bit type but I had a great source for Star bits.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 12:46am PT
|
Ron,
I just buy the cheapest High Speed Steel drill bits I can find usually about $5.00 apiece. They have a point on the end and I grind them into a chisel point like the old 5.10 1/4" bits. I grind the chisel point so that it lines up between the flutes so that the bit is strong. As you sharpen them you have to swirl it slightly to align the chisel point between the flutes. Haven't tried them in sandstone or volcanic rock but, they work well in granite.
Healyj,
There is nothing commercially available that I know of. There is a lot of maintenance to keeping them sharp. They are worth the extra work. The biggest problem now is to find a handle with a collet system so that you can try it out. It is way faster than hand drilling with carbide.
Ken
Ken
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 01:06am PT
|
Here's my 3/8 hand rig:
The chuck from a milwaukee air hammer with 2/3 of the metal cut off. standard "A" taper bit. Like c-skinner says, grind a little and dip in water to cool. Can be sharpened well in the field with emery paper. 10-15 minutes 3.5 inches in granite.
Here's the rig I made for leaving the bosch hangin' behind for future use:
A nice deep hook which won't come off by surprise (yikes!) but will pull without hanging up too.
A good trick: lead with a 1/4" hand drill on your person. From a stance, drill a shallow hole and hook it with a talon. No you can pull up the bosch and drill the real hole just above the hooking hole so the hanger covers it. Kind of a dirty trick but beats leading off puny bolts and coming back later.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 01:25am PT
|
Quick question. Is that a surf board or a hang glider you have strapped to you in the first shot?? What iz that thang?
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 01:34am PT
|
Fish should recognize it as I beleive he made it. It was a borrowed drill and we pulled it up in the bomber Fish bag for full protection. The crystals there were quite sharp.
A plug for you Fish.
Ken
p.s. I have Walts Fish harness slings (leopard style and stylish) that I ended up with after he passed away. Another plug for you Fish.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 01:35am PT
|
I love drilling on the lead...never rapped a route in yet in my life.....only to add bolts to some of our run-out nightmares of yesteryear.....Rap bolting, for me, takes all the fun out of it.....what a shame....won't do it. My granny can rap bolt....(You should see her bolt on the lead......)
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 01:39am PT
|
Right on Todd. I'm with you.
Of course some places kind of work with rap bolting. I just don't get much interested in doing new routes there. Leave it to those who get it.
I want the whole experience.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 01:48am PT
|
I know this, that well used old Bosch of mine is about to be reconfigured along the lines described on Fish's site. It's been a good tool but with tired batteries it's pretty weak.
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 02:09am PT
|
By hand or w/power....each has advantages. But bathooking is universally WEAK!
Sorry for the old photos...but Blitzo beauties
There ya go HG....gettin moist yet?
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 05:23am PT
|
heheh....
Any woman worth her salt would have to agree that the middle picture of Blitzo's is.....ummmm...worth thinking about.
An incredible chunk of airy rock, legs splayed....swingin' that hammer....
I bet half of you GUYS would rather fantasize over that picture that the bubble-wrapped blond.....
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 08:58am PT
|
Nothing says "bring it down to your level" like pro bolts.
I feel like a pilgrim in an unholy land.
Steelheads...grasping for guide book glory. Too bad you couldn't do the climb as God gave it to you, and felt the need to wield the steel instead of muster the custard...
To place bolts any closer together than 150' is just plain vanilla weaksauce.
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 09:02am PT
|
Ken Trout on Childhood's End.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 10:35am PT
|
Believe me, Ken's done some rapping in his day.
ECF you ARE in an unholy land. What can you do?
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 10:44am PT
|
I guess that limits the El Cap routes you will do.
Ken
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 11:25am PT
|
The blame lies in placing the bolt, not clipping it.
Rivets don't violate the principle, as they serve a different purpose.
Why is toproping unprotectable sections so shunned? I fail to see the logic that it is better to place bolts to keep from decking, than to rig a top rope. That's what it is all about, isn't it, to not die? One way permanently alters the rock, the other does not. How can anyone feel that alteration is the better way? It flies in the face of every argument of "preservation". The only benefit is the ego boost of getting the "redpoint".
If you are climbing with a safety net (rope), the only measure of purity is to what degree the rock was altered to allow passage.
So, please explain why it is better to lead with permanent artificial pro, than to TR off a temporary rig? The way I see it, if you don't fall, you climbed it. Period. The details of an unused saftey net are inconsequential.
I feel I am being clear, but won't be at all surprised to be misunderstood.
Not trying to pee on anyone's parade, just food for thought.
Ron, all I can do is preach. It is up to the individual to accept the message into their heart, or not. It's freewill, baby! Ain't it grand?
Ken, a man is only limited to the scope of his own imagination.
And when all my gear got stolen, that pretty much limited the number of routes I can do to zero.
I apologise that this is coming off as personal. My beef is with bolting, not climbers who bolt.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 11:42am PT
|
Oh, you mean sportclimbers? Don't waste your pity...
I pity the tall skinny blonde dudes that don't see the value in preserving natural resources.
Anybody ever confuse you with Mr. Way?
Any time you have clipped one of those bolts and breathed a sigh of relief, did you pause to realize that you prefer not to challenge yourself past certain limits? And that a challenge with limits is really no challenge at all?
I thought you were all about "pushing the standards"? Sounded good when you said it, but living upto it is proving to be a little humbling, huh?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 11:45am PT
|
Wait a minute, elcapfool
Last I knew, warbler doesn't rap bolt. He puts up very proud ground up routes.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 11:51am PT
|
What principle don't aid rivets violate? A bolt or two (or three) placed on lead for free climbing seems to me a more challenging and fulfilling climbing experience for the first ascenders, and for those who come after. Those photos above show bold climbers establishing really good routes, in my estimation. But, there is room for different styles/ethics of climbing, for sure.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 12:05pm PT
|
Rivets are not placed 'in case I may fall', they go in with an admission of failure to come up with a solution to the problem presented by nature. To continue to the summit when no other means exist. But bolts are to limit danger, and that is a personal choice with irreversible consequences.
The question posited is why is bolting better than TR-ing?
By drilling a bolt, you are admitting "this is as far as I am willing to push myself, but I am still more rad than you".
I'm taking the Devil advocate position here to elicit a reponse to why freeclimbers think it is OK for them to alter the rock, but aid is a contemptable activity practiced by knuckle-dragging cave men.
Kevin started it....
See, I told you I'd be misunderstood.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 12:07pm PT
|
Take that!
Ken
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 12:16pm PT
|
EC,
alter it once and for good, or alter it with every ascent and without concern for the results?
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 12:19pm PT
|
Ken- Fair enough, LOL.
Sorry I didn't first state my prime directive first, everyone gets to do what ever they want. That means you get to bolt, Kevin get to say aidclimbing is lame, and I get to ask why alteration is acceptable for some people but not others.
And admit it, without the conflict, the Taco stand has no salsa.
Ron,(with all respect due a well armed man) see Wikipedia-"clean aid". But we really aren't talking about aid here. My point is, continue to where you can get natural pro, or TR it.
Hell, bolt it if you want to, but be prepared to hear about it 'round the fire.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 12:23pm PT
|
I'm trying to understand, but I just don't see how a line of rivets is better than widely-spaced bolts. I think both are OK, used sparingly and artfully. And neither one is as damaging or unsightly as a trail cut through wilderness, which we all use in our forays into the heart of ourselves.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 12:31pm PT
|
Jeff, a hole is a hole, so you're right on that. And essentially, that is my point too. The difference being, that theoretically, the freeclimber could have continued on without the bolt.
And look at the Freeblast. When the technology advanced, the rivets were removed, a somewhat elitist act, but done with the proper intent. Was Robbins chastised for placeing them, no.
You think a trail is bad, what about the road that gets us to the trail...
Does anyone have anything to say about topropping?
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 12:40pm PT
|
I've had mango salsa that somehow harnessed all the heat of the sun in a single spoonful.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 12:41pm PT
|
Guess the aid-climbing mind-set just doesn't resonate with me very much, although it may be the only type of climbing that I'll be able to do much of, anymore. I'll find out later this month down in Zion with Ron. He's offered to take me along on an anniversary climb of Touchstone. It'll be my first real climb in five years. Wish me luck.
|
|
elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
|
Wish you luck, I don't think you need it, but I will wish you a great time. Don't let Ron start telling any Don Whillans stories, they all end the same way...
Somehow this turned into a free vs. aid thing. I was trying to find out why TR-ing isn't an accepted method, and that bolting is so widely regarded as OK.
IMO bolts are second only to sponsorship as a threat to our sport and access to the places we love.
|
|
Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 01:09pm PT
|
As the thread drifts this must now be off topic, but a couple of old hand-drilled-on-lead FAs in the Valley (the Mount Washington Valley, that is). No hooks used.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 01:24pm PT
|
elcapfool
I believe the reason for TR-ing isn't an accepted method is because there really isn't much of an element of surprise or unknown to top roping.
Once these sport bolt routes are up, there are always people that show up that can flash these things without ever hanging or even ever seen the route before except from the bottom.
I've seen good climbers onsight flash hard sport routes many times.
This flashing onsight sport routes seems to me the ultimate goal of the "sport route" type climbing.
I believe there is room for all of us in this climbing world.
If not, then .........?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
|
EC,
I can't believe you don't see that leading is more interesting (and convenient) than toproping.
Bolts enable lots of fun climbs, but like any other tool they can be misused.
They say the same thing about my guns and bombs etc.
I don't tell Don Whillans stories but there is a certain consistency to the endings of mine as well. OMG you may be onto something.
Well, we'll see what we see when we go to aid the now "free" Touchstone.
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 01:50pm PT
|
Love bolting on lead. Even better on a stance. Better yet by hand drilling. These are the things I like. Seems to make a better route too.
-Warbler- Got about three pitches up on the Supper Nova Wall and came across a rapel route from the top(bolt stations every 150 feet).Are these yours? We took our line to the top. Saw some other routes up higher too.These yours too?
-Aldude- Calling every body "weak" who doesn't play your way? There are those who would call power drilling or even putting in bolts at all, "weak".Play nice, Royal is watchinig.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 04:15pm PT
|
They are all different games and completely different experiences. Yosemite has a ground up tradition due to the heighth of the rock. It would be a little tough to toprope the South Face of Half Dome for instance. You could simulate a bolt lead with a toprope I guess by not pulling in the rope until the climber had gotten to a stance and fidgeted for 15 minutes or so. Then the belayer would have to feed the rope out in equal increments as the climber climbed above that stance until the climber got to the next stance and fidgeted around some more simulating a bolt placement. Somehow, I do not think it will catch on.
There are many types of rock climbing and I have enjoyed them all. It is exciting to go up on a face route with only a drill and a small rack. Stancing is scary as is getting on a hook on steep stuff when looking at a long fall. Very rewarding when you make it.
Ken
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 05:40pm PT
|
Warbler,Haunted House looks good. We played on the easyer corners below it to the little doctor seusse looking tree doing three short routes to the same tree. Yes, we did send the route that traverses out on the "Z" shaped dike to gain the uper corner system. My Heart sank when, after 3 hours on lead,drilling with the dullest drill bit ever, I came up to the belay and found 2 bolts placed on rapel. We we came back 2 years later and finished it.I'm over it now. The route turned out great. It goes at 5.11c A0. There are 5 aid bolts on the blank bulge to pull on, the rest is free. The 11c. is right before the aid part. It starts just left of Super Nova,5.8,5.9,5.10c,5.11c,5.10c/d,5.8,510a,5.10c, and 4th class to the top, or rapel the route(better). It's clean and classic.Lots of hand cracks. One of the better routes we have put up. It took 13 days spread over 5 years.Eric Gabel/Waren Dignes 2004. Still waiting for a second asscent!
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 09:27pm PT
|
Hey Warbler, I felt the same when I saw Your routes. It's Good to see people sending. I heard Elliott Robinson sent a line to the left of ours that goes to the top at 12a. all free and shares the last pitch of the Gabel/Dignes route.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2006 - 11:03pm PT
|
I agree with you Warbler, it is everywhere. Good job AbelGabel! That is a nice section of rock! Nice job!
Ken
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2006 - 11:57pm PT
|
Thanks for the support Kevin & Ken. I often wonder if any body will repeat routes my friends and I have put up while I'm still around in the climbing world.I'm sure you guys have some good stuff you've put up that is waiting to be discovered. I can assure you that many of the best lines are still out there. It's amazing that with every line you do, 2 or 3 more lines come into focus and I know that I'll never get to them all. Once you start seeing them, they're everywere! Lower, Middle,and Lost Brother have provided enough adventure to me and my partners, for many a climbers lifetime. I feel very fortunate to have been able to have such great adventures into the unknown, while trying to piece together some obscure line. Hope people keep exploring.
-Eric
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 12:05am PT
|
Eric, that is why I still live here (laziness) and why others still visit (energy).
Ken
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 12:30am PT
|
I know Ken, wish I was there right now. Headed up in the morning. Has the rain stopped yet?
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 12:34am PT
|
YES!
Ken
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 12:54am PT
|
"You have not lived life until you have f*chd the gall bladder of death" (Warhol's Frankenstein)...
...Um, anyhow, hand drilling on lead is the shyte.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 01:15am PT
|
Roy, I agree it is all good, and what we personally want to achieve is better for ourselves.
Ken
p.s. Ooh!
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 01:49am PT
|
Eric G, I take it from your defensive indignation that you are a bathooker. Can you really condone this niggardly and short sited practice. If you can start a bolt from stance why would you not tough it out and finish it in style? Why two holes instead of one?
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 02:15am PT
|
Aldude,
never drilled a bat hook in my life. If it could be done by stance, I'd give my last breath I had in me to do it by stance. If I have to hook, it's a natural feature. Some people do it different though.
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 03:01am PT
|
Eric, good for you. Would you agree that there is such a thing as good style vs bad style? Should we as climbers validate or encourage bad style? " Or is it " All good, man "?
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 04:24am PT
|
I tried hating every body who didn't do things in "good style". Didn't get me anywere. Ended up not liking people who were otherwise my friends and good people. I miss some of them now. I like ground up, on sight, stance drilled routes. Don't mind hooking naturel features if I can't get a stance.I try to bolt only as a last resort. But thats Me. I do believe in good style, but know that most people aren't going to change, or respect me for trying to change them. I would prefer to lead by example. And No, it's not "All Good".Things people do on the rock effect me down to the core of my soul. I just try to do my best.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 10:45am PT
|
Yikes. I had no idea I was going to start someting when I mentioned the idea in the first place. Like I said in the first place, it is a cheap trick. That said, it was taught to me by one the revered grand old masters. You've never gotten in over your head and had to save your bacon?
(Al, if you were to go snoopin' under my bolt hangers you woudn't find a bunch of bat hook holes, I promise.)
Sorry I mentioned it...
Cheers Dude,
KS
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 12:28pm PT
|
No worries guys, not a hater....just tryin to stir the pot for deli style discourse. That's the great thing about our sport w/no rules - what other athletic pursuit can boast such lively debate?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 12:35pm PT
|
Gladiators?
|
|
snooky
climber
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 12:35pm PT
|
"I tried hating every body who didn't do things in "good style". Didn't get me anywere. Ended up not liking people who were otherwise my friends and good people. I miss some of them now."
Good to see someone with such honesty. The problem seems to be some people can't be happy with their own efforts and try everything possible to make others play by their rules. This is close to the current neo-fascist way of the Bush administration, "..either you are with us or you are with the terrorists." When I first started to climb in the mid eighties at Stoney Point Bob Kamps would show up and start talking about ethics and it was interesting. But if this is the same aldude I think this is he talks about ethics in this narrow manner that seems a little much. If I remember correctly it was John Bacher that chopped Randy Leavits routes out at Josh and them torched a yucca and really made a mess. Well even if those climbs had glue and rap bolts etc. so what. The Lighting Bolt hold has glue in camp 4, is someone going to chop that? Don't think so. What about Wheat Thin, rap bolts?? I just remember everyone at Stony talking about Al and John Bacher as the ones that pounded over the hangers on the Ron Kauk climb Crossroads in the Valley and how lame that was. So ablegabel take the ethics lecture about good and bad style from Al with a grain or two of salt because his style along with a few select friends of his have been pretty ugly over the years. There are no "rules" for climbing and those that tend to think so end up looking like fools.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 01:02pm PT
|
Eric is one of the most respectful people I know, but he doesn't put up with pretentious bullsh#t...
I can attest that he is foremost in search of good lines to do in good style. His motto, "just because you can doesn't mean you should" speaks volumes.
When on a line, he seeks out natural pro first, and he is highly innovative, I've learned a lot from cleaning his leads. But he also realizes that not all climbers will pro like him, so a bolt will go in from time to time, if the line seems worth someone else going up. Often this decision will be reached after the FA, and we go back an bolt the line, on lead mostly, from stance mostly, using hooks, or the second doing it... usually in that order. The idea is not to leave a "X" rated climb on something worth doing. Not everything is worth doing again.
On our FA of "A Walk In The Park" Eric debated the possibility of needing the bolt kit. In the end we left it, as much because of its extra weight as for the preservation of the adventurous nature of the first ascent we were attempting. The bolt kit would probably guarentee the line would go, but we did away with that guarentee simply because the style of the climb would have been compromised. The climb "vision" that Eric had was in the style of Brower and the original pioneers of Valley routes: you spy a natural passage from the floor to the rim and you go for it.
I have a huge amount of respect for Eric's style and ethic. As I've said before, I am proud to be asked to accompany him on his many adventures.
|
|
Neil
Gym climber
Here and there
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 01:16pm PT
|
ALdude/Blitzo...
BRD?
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
|
snooky,..whoever you are...you're wrong about me and John(Crossroads). But you are correct about the passionate opinions generated by rap-bolting and crossing of lines that exsisted in the late 80s. Apparently the Southern Belle team also shared that passion and were confronted in the parking lot with an equally passionately violent response from "the other side"!! I look back on those days and kind of shake my head in disbelief. We lost the style war,but man we were livin!!!
|
|
snooky
climber
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 01:37pm PT
|
The other side? Who was that?? What violence are you talking about? AND YOU ARE LYING ABOUT CROSSROADS.
|
|
snooky
climber
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 02:00pm PT
|
Al, if you also say you don't know who vandalized Crossroads you are lying. Crossroads crossed the Bacher line and you think anyone believes John has nothing to do with that mess, I saw those flattened hangers this season and you guy are pathetic. At least you should go clean up the mess you made, it stands as a monument of stupidity to have left those flattened hangers and you guys say that rap bolting is wrong. Well,.... leaving a mess like you did is pitiful. Also there is a route in the Meadows at one of the Whizz Domes that you idiots left in the same ugly state and you think people believe you care about the rock? You chumps just care about being megalomaniacs. Someday if you have time you should clean that mess up but you're cowards and can't admit to those dirty deeds.
|
|
aldude
climber
Monument Manor
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 02:30pm PT
|
I'm not going to engage in a "he said - she said" online with an anonymous poster. If your calling me a liar identify yourself and be prepared to prove it !! Maybe you should take your anger and accusations over to Johns' and punch him out if it makes you feel better.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 02:37pm PT
|
My thoughts exactly. If you really want this discussion to go somewhere, honesty is the best policy. And that includes providing your real name if you're going to call someone a coward and a liar. Calling JB a coward is laughable.
|
|
snooky
climber
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
|
I knew you were a coward. Punch John? I have zero violent tendencies and that is a pathetic distraction from the guilt you obviously have about chopping and vandalizing. You still haven't said who the "other side" was and what kind of violence went on, would love the story, or lies. You seem to respond to many annon-posters here so what is the problem?? Oh yeah, you got caught lying, that must be it.
|
|
Jello
Social climber
No Ut
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 02:42pm PT
|
snooky- weak, weak, weak.............
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2006 - 03:02pm PT
|
I agree with Jello.
Ken
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 03:10pm PT
|
yeah Brent, oh... I mean Snooky
This is weaker than when you were going to call the INS on Evo!
Why would anyone vandalise the only good Cafe in Josh anyway?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 04:28pm PT
|
Not me .....
But from reading snooky's responses here he seems to know a lot about some of the "behind the scenes incidents" about some of these events.
I could if I wanted to, tear this whole bolt shitfest apart with what I know.
I won't, not yet, maybe in the future sometime, who knows?
Get me pissed off enough in a bad direction and I'll really tell some sh#t about this f'cked up bolt chopping hypocrisy and their major players!
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 04:37pm PT
|
Werner you big tease!
Me and you pal... let's blow the lid off the 'mutha..... all our secrets OUT!
Unless someone sends us each $5.00 RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 05:18pm PT
|
Yeah Russ, hehehe .....
|
|
snooky
climber
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 07:03pm PT
|
"Calling JB a coward is laughable." Mimi
Never called him a coward regarding his climbing, the issue is all the bolts he chopped but never telling the truth about what happened.
"Apparently the Southern Belle team also shared that passion and were confronted in the parking lot with an equally passionately violent response from "the other side"!!"
aldude
One of the team was Coz correct? Well look what he said about Todd Skinner just recently in this forum:
"He loved climbing, and to climb free on big walls, a lot of cowards called him names, but none of them where half the man he was. He had the balls to say what he felt, and the guts to push the limits of popular thought. He was a visionary, and despite what many people may think, we all liked him back in the day."
A lot of cowards....aldude??? Sounds like Cosgrove is calling you a coward.
Hey Werner, what would it take to get you really pissed because I would love to hear the stories.
Brent
Oh, I have heard about some of the chopping from Joe Hedge when I still lived in LA, he said there was all kinds of vandalism. He mentioned that stuff at the gym on a regular basis.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2006 - 11:23pm PT
|
Man I luv these bolting dust ups!
Way better than a bona fide c*#k fight or reality TV, not quite as good as a tuff girl cat fight.
J Hedge might sniff this out and vent some steamy steam...
Anyhow, I sure do enjoy a well crafted trad bolt route.
Chiloe's pictures upthread really capture the feel.
|
|
ec
climber
|
|
|
Nov 13, 2006 - 12:10am PT
|
I remember Eric and Nick Badurka (sp) showed up for there first visit down there and we all had great time.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Nov 13, 2006 - 12:14am PT
|
Yes, Nick has been posting up a bit and we saw him at a JT reunion last winter.
Man, I bet you have some cool vintage photos eh?
We would love to see some...
Thanks for the video!
|
|
atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Nov 13, 2006 - 12:20am PT
|
ec, great video and frank, thanks
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 13, 2006 - 03:09am PT
|
back on topic
I've rapped a couple routes, two or three are even really good. But they don't have the value that the ground up ones did.
It doesn't take that much to put them in top down. The adventure quotient is redued.
In retrospect I think I put them in TD in haste to get them done when a partner didn't show. These days I just wait for a partner or start working on another project.
However, when dealing with highly fragile or crappy rock. Style is rejected in favor of safety in that limited subset of routes. Not sure why. Have to think on that some more.
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Nov 13, 2006 - 10:43am PT
|
Kinda depends on the terrain, don't you think? I was never a rap-bolter until I left the slabs behind and discovered overhanging 40' choss with a talus landing...you'd be stupid to even try and aid up that sh#t. Easy to spray about the dictates of style when you only seek out one kind of climbing.
|
|
Mimi
climber
|
|
|
Nov 13, 2006 - 11:45am PT
|
Maybe a giant extension ladder or a heap of mattresses would free you from your ethical dilemma.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 13, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
|
if it takes bolts at all it should be aidable at least.
but for me that's not my thing, I would clean sh#t top down like at Table Mountain, CA. OTherwise you could ride a block to the ground.
|
|
ablegabel
Trad climber
Livermore,Ca.
|
|
|
Nov 13, 2006 - 12:47pm PT
|
[url=http://img119.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0002ks0.jpg]{{img}}h~~p://img119.imageshack.us/img119/9213/scan0002ks0.th.jpg[/img][/url]
My first atempt at posting a photo! Can,t believe I even got it to show up.
 Chiken Skinner -Warbler-
This is the Dike travers out to the main main crack system on the Super Nova Wall.
|
|
Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2006 - 01:03pm PT
|
Abelgabel,
Nice shot and good job on the route. Looks like a classic pitch.
Mungeclimber, That possibilty can be part of the adventure.
Ken
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 13, 2006 - 02:19pm PT
|
IMA skeeredy kat tho. :)
|
|
bringmedeath
climber
la la land
|
|
|
Nov 13, 2006 - 02:20pm PT
|
Come to washington and climb all these cliffs on the westside ground up. You will be climbing a vertical sea of moss, at times several inches thick. I will continue to climb top down as long as it holds my intrest. Wire brushes in hand... scrub scrub scrub.
When I come to Cali, I can only dream, rock everywhere that is clean and ready to go. Someday...
|
|
| Messages 1 - 93 of total 93 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!