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franky
Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
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Feb 12, 2016 - 06:44pm PT
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I dare any of you to find one real example of a government employee driving a motorized vehicle in designated wilderness. If you do, it will almost certainly be a SAR or Fire vehicle responding to a real emergency.
Monument designation doesn't equate to many of the assumptions you are making about losing dispersed camping, losing road access, or any other loss. Heck, I haven't even heard yet if they intend to turn this over to the NPS to run it or keep it BLM. Have any of you been to Grand Staircase - Escalante or Giant Sequoia National Monument (you know, The Needles)? They certainly aren't overloaded with rules.
If you want to complain about these new monuments, I would recommend starting with the fact that when presidents designate them, they are often unfunded, as is the case with these newest ones. If these monuments end up being given to Mohave National Preserve to run, it will be a pain in their butt as they won't have money for extra patrols or infrastructure.
The monument designation is really for marketing. Marketing for the land to increase visitation and help the local economy, and marketing for the president who does it. Most of the other changes y'all are talking about are either not related to the monument designation, or related to the increased visitation the monument causes but not the designation itself.
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franky
Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
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Feb 12, 2016 - 06:57pm PT
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Also, I have a hard time that you aren't being a little bit of an exaggerator Escopeta. Grazing is allowed on BLM and USFS wilderness, but motorized vehicle use is managed and should not routinely be part of a wilderness grazing operation.
Anyway, don't you think it is a little funny that you just brought up a downside of giving private parties special privileges on public land?
That Wilderness grazing exists is a powerful demonstration of the fact that land management agencies can't take anything away from private individuals, even grazing on land they don't own. Even revoking a grazing permit requires an extensive process and can't be done for arbitrary reasons. There isn't a mechanism for a land management agency to arbitrarily take private land.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 12, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
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I personally don't need these regulations to use our public lands in a responsible manner.
Well aren't you a role model for corporate cattle and mining operators who would never explicitly exploit public lands at taxpayer expense or do anything to degrade the environment. I'm stunned that so many of you are played like fiddles on issues like this by monied interest who live off of federal subsidies. If they actually had to pay a true fair-market price for the public resources they exploit they'd all be out of business tomorrow. Capitalism indeed; they are the largest welfare recipients in the nation.
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Climberdude
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Feb 12, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
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The Taco - a padded room with inmates wearing ear plugs and earmuffs yet all yelling at each other.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 12, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
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Whatever level of protection this land enjoyed previously was sufficient to maintain it in *pristine* condition.
Obama's move was totally unnecessary, as far as land preservation goes.
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franky
Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
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Feb 12, 2016 - 07:34pm PT
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"It hasn't changed yet, so it never will" does not make logical sense.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:26am PT
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Oh, I see you have hiked into the east side of Domeland wilderness.... walking endlessly on the dirt we all one time drove down.... and while you trudge in the hot sun you look at the tire marks, put down by mr. Ranger boy who drove out there yesterday. .... that is wilderness?????
I 100% support real wilderness....and its protection.
Guyman,
I'm a rule follower by nature. But that was a bridge too far for me. I chose a different path when it comes to that location. I guess by most standards here, I should have gotten a 5 year minimum sentence.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Feb 13, 2016 - 06:54am PT
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I didn't really appreciate all the public land we seem to have everywhere in Colorado, until I wanted to go into more remote areas. Then you find out that a lot of national forest is too hard to access because of private land, amazing canyons and cliffs are all owned by millionaires. For example, the Greenhorn range near Pueblo is similar to the flatirons, with hundreds of 100' high crags in the foothills. But as far as I can find on the internet, no one has climbed any of them. The reason is that it's super-rugged terrain with no trails, and only accessible by trespassing. The only people who go there are hunters, and they don't go to the craggy parts. Then I bet there are half a dozen limestone areas equal in size to shelf road (starting with Graneros Gorge, which Colorado City claims is a tourist attraction, although you cannot trespass in it). They are everywhere, actually. What they do is divide it up into 40 acre parcels, and people build McMansions on 'bluff sites' to feel like they are king of the hill. Huge climbing areas are developed like that. I think it's too late to try to preserve most of it, but these places totally lose their character once the subdivisions move in.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Feb 13, 2016 - 07:26am PT
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I hope they install the doggie poop bag dispensers soon.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Feb 13, 2016 - 08:58am PT
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I dare any of you to find one real example of a government employee driving a motorized vehicle in designated wilderness. If you do, it will almost certainly be a SAR or Fire vehicle responding to a real emergency.
Challenge accepted. Here is one instance that was at least somewhat publicized. I decided to use an article written by a group that has already been quoted (on this thread I believe).
http://www.hcn.org/articles/idaho-and-blm-flout-conservation-laws-for-fallen-officers
Idaho and BLM flout conservation laws for fallen officers
On May 13, the Idaho Department of Fish and Game and the federal Bureau of Land Management tried to honor two fallen Idaho wildlife officers in a most unfortunate way: They did so by violating federal conservation laws.
The story begins back in 1981, when two Idaho conservation officers, Bill Pogue and Conley Elms, were murdered by a poacher named Claude Dallas along the South Fork of the Owyhee River. Pogue and Elms had gone to Dallas' camp along the river to investigate reports of illegal trapping. Dallas turned out to be the right man, but when they tried to arrest him, he resisted and shot and killed the two officers. He then fled, but was later apprehended and found guilty of two counts of voluntary manslaughter. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison for the manslaughter charges and 10 years for firearms violations. Claude Dallas served 22 of the 30 years and was released from prison in February 2005.
There are many good ways to appropriately honor officers who are killed in the line of duty. But Idaho Fish and Game staffers chose to follow a lawless path – and they did so with BLM personnel on board. Here's what they did: State staffers drove at least one truck into the Owyhee River Wilderness to the canyon rim in violation of the Wilderness Act, which prohibits motorized travel. Then they installed a permanent rock memorial to the officers -- another violation of the Wilderness Act -- on the banks of the river where they were slain. At the May 13 event to officially unveil the monument, Idaho wildlife staffers also drove a utility vehicle into the Owyhee River Wilderness to provide access for a person with mobility impairments.
To top it off, the BLM issued an Environmental Assessment and Decision Notice authorizing this behavior on May 14, the day after the unveiling had been conducted. This mockery of legal process violated the spirit and provisions of the National Environmental Policy Act, and deprived the public of any way to comment and perhaps protest.
Owyhee County has filed a Notice of Appeal against this action. "This failure to coordinate in good faith prevented consideration of other alternative sites that could well have been appropriate means to honor the lost Fish and Game officers," the county wrote. "The memorial should be removed from wilderness until the decision process can be done correctly to correct the flaws noted above," the county concluded. Several local tribes also objected, asking whether they could erect memorials in wilderness area to honor generations of their fallen members, whose bones are scattered across the Owyhee country.
Most Idaho residents love the Gem State's wilderness heritage. Idahoans enjoy the experiences found in designated Wilderness for hunting, fishing, hiking, wildlife watching, or just enjoying the peace and quiet of the great outdoors. And people from across America love to come and visit such iconic wildernesses here as the Frank Church-River of No Return, the Sawtooths, the Selway-Bitterroot and the Owyhees. These places help make Idaho the great place it is.
So it is appalling that Idaho wildlife staffers display so little respect for wilderness protections under environmental laws. From its war on predators, including hiring a trapper to wipe out wolf packs deep within the Frank Church-River of No Return Wilderness, to this current offense, the state wildlife agency consistently shows its disregard for the tenets of the Wilderness Act.
Sadly, the BLM is now proving itself to be not much better. Whether it's Cliven Bundy trespassing on federal land for 15 years and refusing to pay BLM grazing fees, or the more recent case of northern Nevada ranchers Dan and Eddyann Filippini defying the BLM's grazing allotment drought closure, it becomes clear that the BLM won't enforce the law on others, and at the same time is OK with selectively breaking the law itself. The BLM has itself fostered a culture of disobeying the law and getting away with it.
All of this is most unfortunate. America's wildernesses deserve better. And Bill Pogue and Conley Elms, who gave their lives defending our conservation laws, ought to be remembered by something other than a legacy of lawlessness.
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franky
Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
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Feb 13, 2016 - 09:04am PT
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That example is probably a counter example of your claim.
1. They did sham paperwork to do it
2. They got in serious trouble
This seems to show that routine employee wilderness vehicle use is a fantasy.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Feb 13, 2016 - 09:04am PT
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Franky say:
Even revoking a grazing permit requires an extensive process and can't be done for arbitrary reasons. There isn't a mechanism for a land management agency to arbitrarily take private land.
So, the instance quoted below must be the ONLY time these agencies circumvented the process right? Riiiigght.
To top it off, the BLM issued an Environmental Assessment and Decision Notice authorizing this behavior on May 14, the day after the unveiling had been conducted. This mockery of legal process violated the spirit and provisions of the National Environmental Policy Act, and deprived the public of any way to comment and perhaps protest.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Feb 13, 2016 - 09:15am PT
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You guys are dinosaurs.
Road. Less.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Feb 13, 2016 - 09:23am PT
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That example is probably a counter example of your claim
Typical, when someone calls you out, just move the goalposts. That way people won't see how stupid you are for making the claim in the first place.
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franky
Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
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Feb 13, 2016 - 09:34am PT
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I admit you found an example, that's good, helps the discussion.
Just stating that your example doesn't support your argument that federal employees routinely drive vehicles into the wilderness, in fact, it's the opposite.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 13, 2016 - 09:43am PT
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I think I'd rather see places like this just have some other designation rather than 'monument' or State/National Park. Sure, places like Yellowstone, Yosemite, Everglades, and such deserve some special attention and higher level of conservation. No doubt.
Other places are not so unique but are just as necessary, if not more, to our overall ecosystem. They cover more landmass than the 'jewels' and are, for the most part, self-sustaining.
There must be some other designation that inhibits development AND keeps the land open to all recreational activity.
State Wilderness? National Forest works pretty well in the Sierras, but fewer locked gates!
One of the standards I like is, "Can I park and pitch a tent here for free and spend the night?".
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Feb 13, 2016 - 09:47am PT
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Pretty funny to see freedom-loving climbers who climbed for decades on regulated and protected public land, whine about land designations that are aimed at protecting historic, natural, and recreational resources...
... Blue, good note.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Feb 13, 2016 - 12:45pm PT
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Pretty funny to see freedom-loving climbers who climbed for decades on regulated and protected public land, whine about land designations that are aimed at protecting historic, natural, and recreational resources...
+1
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c wilmot
climber
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Feb 13, 2016 - 12:52pm PT
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How much deferred maintenance is attributed to the total NPS asset portfolio?
More than $11.927 billion in DM – work that has been postponed for more than a year and remains unresolved – can be attributed to the NPS asset portfolio. NPS managers care for over 400 uniquely American treasures consisting of more than 75,000 assets. Aging facilities, increasing use and insufficient funding all contribute to the growing backlog affecting these assets. http://www.nps.gov/subjects/plandesignconstruct/defermain.htm
Perhaps they should fund the current parks before adding more...
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Feb 13, 2016 - 01:11pm PT
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If you guys can't find a place to drive out into the desert and pitch a tent you aren't trying very hard.
I've spent quite a bit of time in the Domelands, pre- and post-wilderness. I don't recall rangers tooling around in trucks since the wilderness designation. Yeah, now I have to hike to some places, but I like hiking anyway! And if it keeps the Domelands healthy and clean, I'm all for it.
From my experience more regulation usually comes with more roads, more signs, more buildings, more people.
That's not how it works in the Eastern Sierra.
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