Obama creates 3 new Nat. Monuments in Cali Desert --YAY!

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Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 14, 2016 - 05:41am PT
Escopeta is it true there is an exception to the no motors in wilderness, for ranchers or miners too i guess, if their claims predate the designation? i always thought a wilderness designation meant no motorized vehicles of any sort, for any reason except emergencies at the discretion of the superintendent. No mountain biking for example.

David,

Despite Franky's claim that employee and rancher motorized travel is limited, there are a bevy of exceptions made and they are sometimes quite different from one wilderness area to another. Around here, the ranchers use those exceptions (and go beyond) often and with impunity. As do the federal employees. How do I know? I see it with my own eyes. Regularly.

And the single biggest (most annoying) transgression we see is repeated flyovers by the coyote helicopter. Wilderness is supposed to be free from flyover except in the case of emergencies. I don't think killing a handful of dogs for the rancher is going to qualify as an emergency.

I know that wilderness travel by fed employees is also frequent in the area Guyman mentioned. One clear indicator is that the road he refers to wasn't closed per se and allowed to return to nature. It merely had a metal gate with a padlock put on it. Which begs the question - "If its wilderness and we are letting that road return to the wild, why not dig it up and prevent all access?"

It is indeed a curious conundrum in the case of grazing and mining leases. Especially in the context that those were sometimes meted out with 99 year leases and such. A clear source of consternation for both government and rancher/miner.

All of this adds complexity to the management of public lands but leaves me with my initial opinion which is: If its wilderness, let's make it proper wilderness. No NOTHING- including cows. I could seriously get down with that concept in limited and specific locations.

But what has happened, which is the warning I give regarding anything the government wants to control, is access by waiver. Meaning, they SAY its wilderness and they shut it down for all motor access, flights, etc. Which sounds wonderful. But then hand out exceptions to those that are either politically connected, rich, powerful or otherwise have something the government wants.

That's not wilderness, that's pandering. I am much more willing to deal with the issues that come from MORE access than I am willing to watch this regulation by exception game play out.

franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 14, 2016 - 06:05am PT
I've never seen anything like that, heard of anything like that, or known anyone who's seen anything like that (in addition to it being illegal). I've spent a ton of time in Wilderness, across a few states.

You can see why I'm suspect of your claims, but I won't call you a liar.

You might want to consider that the coyote shooting is likely a concession to that extremely anti-predator state you live in. Not that it makes it OK.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 14, 2016 - 06:43am PT
Oh, make no mistake. I have no problem with the shooting of coyotes.

But last time I checked, coyotes exist in the wilderness and if I want to go shoot or trap them, I have to strap on a pack and hump on in. Which, for the record is folly if I'm to "compete" with another hunter that gets paid by .gov and rides a heli in to the same area.

So its nothing more than government by waiver and an abomination of this concept of "wilderness" that results in exceptions made for some and not others.

And it doesn't have to be strict wilderness, the same issue applies across the broad scope of "regulations" and management of lands from straight BLM to National Parks.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 14, 2016 - 08:01am PT
I guess if you don't accept that the government gets to do things that individual citizens don't (for the greater good) than you're bound to hate land management agencies or new monument designations (and most anything government related).

However, it isn't fair to imply the agencies have free reign over the land they manage. Their actions are highly regulated.

rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Feb 14, 2016 - 08:04am PT
Bengahzi!!!!!!!!!
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Feb 14, 2016 - 08:17am PT



Park an M1 tank in the Mojave for 100 years to see what the desert can do.
The desert will survive all this nonsense. We are the ones with the short lifespan.
I want my 4 children and their children's children to enjoy the desert but not from a car window while driving through "protected" monuments.

A complicated issue for sure but, not one without answers.
Feinstien and her ilk have so little knowledge of the Southwestern Deserts they should not be the ones writing the rules for weak administrations to follow.

Chewybacca

Trad climber
Kelly Morgan, Whitefish MT
Feb 14, 2016 - 08:25am PT
Good news!

With the tens of millions of people living in and moving to Southern Cali they need all the wild places they can get.


Anybody have any photos or personal stories about their trips to these areas?
rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Feb 14, 2016 - 08:47am PT
With the tens of millions of people living in and moving to Southern Cali they need all the wild places they can get.

The good thing is, 99.999% of those tens of millions, never leave the city.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 14, 2016 - 09:04am PT
^^^^^^

Which is exactly why the deserts don't need saving in the first place......
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 15, 2016 - 06:04am PT
I would argue that many people's disgust for other land users creates a blind spot. One that you don't realize you have until you are standing at a trail-head racking up only to find out your preferred activity is now outlawed.

Take the park preserves in Alaska for example. (ANILCA 1980-ish) When the Feds converted that to NPS oversight.

They said that long time activities such as hunting, fishing, and trapping would be managed and regulated through the states fish and game dept.

Well, that worked for a while, at least until the civil disobedience wore off. Now the NPS must approve any and all game regulations and as a result a lot of hunting, fishing and trapping is outlawed.

Climbing can just as easily be next on the list.

Those of you that were involved in the development of the bolting (and bolt replacement) policy making in J Tree back in the day know exactly how easy it is for government landowners to manage and dictate action through regulations or lack thereof. And I'm sure there are much more modern and relevant climbing access examples that I wasn't involved in.

Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Feb 15, 2016 - 09:42am PT
Escop, sounds like you benefit from, and use the public lands frequently...

... and methods to manage those lands are bad, why?

couchmaster

climber
Feb 15, 2016 - 11:31am PT
Escopeta said, quote:
"Wilderness is supposed to be free from flyover except in the case of emergencies. I don't think killing a handful of dogs for the rancher is going to qualify as an emergency."

Calling baloney on your "handful of dogs" part. Last NE Oregon (near the land of 10,000 spuds) helicopter count for the day (FOR THE DAY) I heard about was 117 yotes. As far as it being "for the rancher", that's bullshit too. The Fish and Wildlife funds their operations via the sale of fishing license and game tags. The hunters, and thus the Fish and Wildlife dept, are the beneficiary that they are thinking of when they pay to fly a helo over to kill Yotes (and they also hire hunters with dogs to go kill cougars same reason). Fish and wildlife simply does it so that they keep their jobs and the funding they get from gamegatherers. They don't do that for the ranchers, although I'm sure the ranchers are super appreciative in the spring during calving/birthing season. The F & W will occasionally kill wolves for the ranchers though, so there is that.

OK, not turning that into a big rant, just a couple of small corrections of something I know about. Please carry on with the argument now.
c wilmot

climber
Feb 15, 2016 - 11:49am PT
http://www.yellowstonepark.com/managing-bison-population/

Yellowstone will be "culling" around 900 bison this year...Mainly because Montana ranchers insist on it.....

I guess its going to be a spring feast for the other animals
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 15, 2016 - 12:08pm PT
I'm all for federal protection of these lands, since the states and locals would destroy them, but the feds (including their CEO) should not be empowered to capriciously create these designations, which from a conservationist's perspective, is the kiss of death.

How is calling attention to the beauty of the land not the same as pimping?


As for predator "control", people are short sighted and poorly educated. Predators are what keeps an ecosystem healthy.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:32pm PT
Couchmaster,

It doesn't matter to me if they kill 1,000 of them per day out of the Helo, its wilderness. The whole point of it is that it supposed to be untouched by the hands of man or some such nonsense. I would say flying a helo over it and landing a hundred times in the desert is NOT what I call leaving it wilderness.

Before it was wilderness, they didn't need to shoot the dogs from a chopper. Know why? Because I was out there (with a whole bunch of other people) shooting and trapping triple that because we could ride out into the lands that are now off limits.

So, we get access restricted, funds expended on a budget item that wouldn't otherwise be needed, AND we don't even get the wilderness that we were promised.

Its backwards in every single sense.

Don't get me wrong, as I said previously I'm OK with the idea of wilderness. I think it has a place in the scheme of our public lands. But let's hold true to the designation and not cater to special interest groups whether it be ranchers, hunters, climbers, farmers or environmentalists.

Todd E,

I absolutely frequent our public lands here in Idaho and the West. The issue I have with the management is that it has turned into nothing more than a boondoggle for the well connected and politically influential. How does it become that you might ask? By restricting as much access and consumptive uses as they possibly can, then they mete out how they see fit to the "right" people. Then they under-fund something and it restricts even more by default.

The process is broken.





Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Feb 15, 2016 - 03:43pm PT
I absolutely frequent our public lands here in Idaho and the West. The issue I have with the management is that it has turned into nothing more than a boondoggle for the well connected and politically influential. How does it become that you might ask? By restricting as much access and consumptive uses as they possibly can, then they mete out how they see fit to the "right" people. Then they under-fund something and it restricts even more by default.

The process is broken.

That may be in Idaho, but my impression is that is NOT the case in Ca.

Why is that? Perhaps it is the republican administration of laws, which like the Bundy's, is simply a talking point.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Feb 15, 2016 - 04:41pm PT
I believe Ken to be correct, after having experience in large jurisdictions in California and a very small and localized community in Wyoming.

One call to the Turko Files in San Diego and that crony crap would cease and desist.

Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 15, 2016 - 05:05pm PT
Just because they aren't outlawing the things you happen to like, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
franky

Trad climber
Black Hills, SD
Feb 15, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
My curiosity got the better of me and I have to ask, what got outlawed that has you so riled up? The standard wilderness stuff, or something else?
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Feb 16, 2016 - 05:22am PT
Its not one thing. And, unlike others from what it appears, I fight for all uses and users not just those I prefer.

The spectrum that ranges from the silly concept of wilderness (which isn't) all the way to other side where the gov uses them to house their boondoggle machines (solar and wind farms).

Its nothing more than a playground for political favors.

How hard would it be to have a simple guideline for use? In the case of animals, the state sets the seasons and bag limits.

In the case of travel, stay on established roads.

The American people don't demand better, so they don't get it. Its that easy.
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