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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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We have a system that socializes some of the losses and profits, but if it solcialized all of the losses, the insolvency bar would be out of business. We aren't.
True, we do not socialize all losses. Only the losses of the 0.1%.
Conservatives are no fans of socializing losses or profits, but I would tend to agree that to the extent the public bears the loss, it should obtain the profit attributable to the share of entrepreneurial risk.
Well, we're not talking about conservatives, we're talking about the big money boys that call teh shots on Wall Street and in Washington.
I obviously think Thomas, Debs, et al., miss the mark in their assumption that labor creates capital -- it does not.
My favorite Republican president, and fellow Hoosier, would disagree:
Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
...
I've never been able to get a useful definition of "a class of self-entitled accumulators of wealth created by all of us." The only way to accumulate wealth (as opposed to income) is to spend less than you make. How does anyone else contribute to that?
Another way to accumulate wealth is to steal it.
... Socialism has too big a disconnect between action and reward.
This is where we disconnect, I guess. It is capitalism that has too big a disconnect between action and reward.
P.S. Are you ever up this way? I would love to treat you to lunch or dinner and, if you're willing to climb with a known coward, share a rope.
Ha! I can see us taking the whole day trying to talk each other into taking the sharp end.
I don't get that way much, but a friend wants to go climb at The Balls. He's knows his way around there. He could rope gun for us. If that ever happens, I'll shoot you a PM. It'd be fun.
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Sparky
Trad climber
vagabond movin on
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You must be speaking about something different from the left-wing reactionary policies espoused by Bernie and, say, Elizabeth Warren. As just one thought exercise, imagine Bernie's tax policies and Warren's regulatory policies in place in, say, 1970. Would the personal computer or the wireless communications industries exist as they do now?
FDR's policies to help build up the middle class are really not much different than what Bernie and Warren are proposing. Gee, I wonder what inventions took place from 1945 to 1978 before some silly policies by Carter and ridiculous polices of Reagan started stripping the middle class....not much change there. Inventions were not stifled.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_inventions_(1946%E2%80%9391)
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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pyro: Gee... what devastating use of someone else's propaganda. Glad to see that your lobotomy was a success, though.
Yeah - the U.S. would definitely be a better place to live in if your hero Trump - a racist, mysogynistic, four-time bankrupt bully managed to ooze into the Oval Office.
By the way, what makes you think I would want to hump your leg? If I was into that kind of behaviour, we've got sewer rats up here that are infinitely more attractive as prospective partners than you.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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That's it Stewart. I'm turning you in to PETA
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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rick: You should probably call them off. I said "If".
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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You must feel better now ,Aye?
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Norton
Social climber
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Gee
And I vote Republican because of the three G's
God
Guns
Gays
Everything else is all lies and copied off the internet
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Jorroh
climber
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JElezarian...
"In Bernie's case, his financial situation represents his view of how the world should be -- we all work for the government"
John, congratulations on graduating to straw men fallacies....you had a good, long run with "look ma they're doing it too", but it was really starting to get quite comical.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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I give you a lot of credit Cosmic,that is at least 6 more issues than Trump has mentioned.
Oh......EVER!
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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cosmiccragsman: Nice to know that your paranoid fairyland puts me into the middle of a conspiracy. Crankster, Dr, F. & I have never exchanged emails of any sort, nor have we collaborated to post such ludicrous comments.
When you finally sober up enough to form organized thinking patterns, feel free to write this down:
I stand by my opinions, and anything I claim to be factual information can be verified.
Oh, yeah here's a couple of FACTS:
1) I have owned guns, and I'm a pretty good shot. I don't own one at present because I'm worried that someone might steal it and use it in a crime, or perhaps a child might get his hands on it and accidentally kill himself or someone else.
2) I don't vote Democrat, mainly because I'm Canadian.
Idiot.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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So, let me be clear, Trump says waterboarding and even more extreme forms of torture are okay, as long as he 'declassifies' them as president? The Geneva Convention is just sort of a nice idea, but doesn't apply to us? So other countries can just, sort of, ignore it? And if they ignore it and torture captured American soldiers, it's okay as long as they 'declassify' it? Have I got it right? At least Cruz, whom I loathe, has some doubts about this. Has the American public really become so dulled by television and movie maiming, death, destruction, and torture that they now accept the fantasy of a script writer as reality? Sorry, I shouldn't have to ask, as I know the answer. What has happened to the moral and ethical teachings of Christianity? This country was founded by Deists, not evangelicals, and their values seem more moral than what I see hard core Christian right wing weirdos believing. WTF? I am concerned for this country.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Bravo Cosmic. You nailed it. A real tour-de-force.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Hey, Cosmic, could you spend a few minutes and innumerate the accomplishments of the last Republican administration? How about a chapter on the current Republican congress (both houses)?
If Trump get the nomination and you vote for him I don't think it will be your proudest day. Not that it will matter in CA.
I'm just a guy who happens to support the current President of the United States and thinks the country we live in is great already. Makes me a crazy guy in some campfires, it appears.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Cosmic been dippin' into that synthetic weed
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2016 - 05:14am PT
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John posted particularly love how his supporters cite the Scandinavian countries as the economic model of what socialism produces, but ignore, say, Italy and France, which are much closer to reality. I've read at least one study that argues that the economic growth of the socialist Scandinavian countries occurred before the enactment of their welfare states. The socialist policies cut their growth rates in half.
And yet many (all?) of those countries rank higher than America in entrepreneurial opportunity. GDP increases are not actually a measurement of human happiness. We could force people over the age of 65 to work 40 hours a week and the GDP would skyrocket. Climbers, of all people, should easily be able to understand that maximizing quantifiable economic productivity is not the core expression of human existence.
Noted socialist rag, Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/best-countries-for-business/list/#tab:overall
Best Countries for Business
#1 Denmark 1.1% $44,600 6.3% 5.6 M
#2 New Zealand 3.3% $35,300 -3.2% 4.4 M
#3 Norway 2.2% $67,200 9.4% 5.2 M
#4 Ireland 5.2% $51,300 3.7% 4.9 M
#5 Sweden 2.3% $46,200 6.2% 9.8 M
#6 Finland -0.4% $40,700 -1.8% 5.5 M
#7 Canada 2.4% $45,000 -2.1% 35.1 M
#8 Singapore 2.9% $83,100 19.1% 5.7 M
#9 Netherlands 1% $48,000 10.4% 16.9 M
#10 United Kingdom 3% $39,800 -5.9% 64.1 M
#11 Hong Kong 2.5% $55,100 1.9% 7.1 M
#12 Switzerland 1.9% $58,100 7.2% 8.1 M
#13 Iceland 1.8% $44,000 3.6% 0.3 M
#14 Australia 2.7% $46,600 -3% 22.8 M
#15 Belgium 1.1% $43,100 1.6% 11.3 M
#16 Portugal 0.9% $27,100 0.6% 10.8 M
#17 Lithuania 3% $27,300 0.1% 2.9 M
#18 Germany 1.6% $46,200 7.4% 80.9 M
#19 Estonia 2.9% $27,900 0.1% 1.3 M
#20 Slovenia 3% $29,900 6.9% 2 M
America doesn't even make the top 20. "Our corporate taxes are too high" you'll say. Yeah but our effective tax rate is lower than all of them. If you want to lower our corporate tax rate and also adopt the social protections that literally every single one of those countries has you'll get no arguments from Democrats.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2016 - 05:24am PT
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Somewhere between 30-50% of NH GOP voters still haven't made up their minds who to vote for. Today could be interesting.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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NH is the graveyard of predictions, but here's mine, anyway:
Bernie and his supporters get a party. Better enjoy it now.
Hillary gets bruised. Lives to see (and win) another day. Advise: Be gracious.
Trump wins but not by as wide a margin as predicted. Stupid is in decline.
Kasich has a good night. One of the last.
Marcobot underachieves. System gets a re-boot.
Cruz and Bush fight it out for 4th. Cruz still talks for an hour.
Fiorina finally disappears. Carson already has, but wanders south.
Meanwhile, minority voters await.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Nice summary, Crankster.
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