Politapocalypse (U.S. Politics Megathread)

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HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 28, 2015 - 04:59am PT
Another attempt at a US politics megathread. The goal is civil (if contentious) political discussion. Most of your political cartoons are bad. Use your words.

Existing (and hopefully soon to die) political threads:
Ready for Donald?
Ready for Hillary?
I'm so proud of my President
Ready for Bernie?
Ready for Cruz?


The Presidential Election:
Always at the top of everyone's attention (warranted or not) and the most covered by media. The contenders:

Republicans:
Ben Carson
Donald Trump
Marco Rubio
Carly Fiorina
John Kasich
Jeb Bush
Ted Cruz
Chris Christie
Rick Santorum
Mike Huckaby
Rand Paul
George Pataki

Also Rans:
Rick "Oops" Perry - Governor of Texas, bespectacled intellectual...and..what was that third thing?
Scott "Union Buster" Walker - Gatekeeper to the Second Gilded Age
Bobby Jindal

Democrats:
Hillary Clinton
Bernard "Bernie" Sanders
Martin O'Malley
Vermin Supreme

Also Rans:
Jim "I killed a guy in 'Nam" Webb - ran out of time
Lincoln "Goofy Ass Grin" Chaffee - not the only farrier to not become President

Debates:
GOP Debate: CNN, December 15, 2015, Nevada
DNC Debate: ABC, December 19, New Hampshire
GOP Debate: Fox News, January 2016, Iowa
DNC Debate: NBC, January 17, NBC
GOP Debate: ABC News, February 2016, New Hampshire
GOP Debate: CBS News, February 2016, South Carolina
GOP Debate: NBC/Telemundo, February 2016, Florida
July 18, 2016: RNC begins in Cleveland
July 25, 2016: DNC begins in Philadelphia
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 05:13am PT
An apparently white man killed 3 people and injured 9 others in a Colorado Planned Parenthood and then had a shootout with police. He had what may have been explosive devices as well.

Four white men were arrested for shooting Black Lives Matter protesters in Minnesota.

These are horrible tragedies of the type that happen all too frequently in our country. They are also great examples of how media coverage and cultural assumptions about the actions of white perpetrators is treated completely differently than that of black, muslim, middle-eastern assailants. Nobody will suggest that these are terrorist attacks (though the very definition of a hate crime is essentially that) and nobody will call for the greater white culture to apologize for the actions of what will be portrayed as marginalized individuals. Why is that?
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 28, 2015 - 05:49am PT
More for ya...

Trump is an evil piece of sh#t.
Turkey shoots down Russian warplane
Donald Trump Doesn't Want to Win
Ready for Romney (again)????
You guys posting graphic, bloody photos SUCK! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
#IStandWithAhmed [OT]
Another active shooter armed stand off in progress.
Obamacare.......

And your observations are correct. Your answer: fear and bigotry.

You have a better chance of being killed by am American with a gun (easily purchased) than a Syrian refugee.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:07am PT
Welcome to Chicago HighDesertDJ
Year To Date
Shot & Killed: 405
Shot & Wounded: 2321
Total Shot: 2726
Total Homicides: 457

Race of Victim/Assailant

Race Victim Assailant
Black 357 83
Hispanic 72 19
White/Other 17 10
Police - 7
Unknown 10 -


Is the news coverage to be done by the percentages of race to crimes?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:03am PT
Oh you are soooooooooooo fked now Clinker... so royally fked.

May I add the following, FACTS...



And your observations are correct. Your answer: fear and bigotry.

Oh the ongoing hypocritical ironeeeee...^^^^^^






mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:09am PT
I think the reason that people get more upset about police killing people than criminals killing people is because you expect criminals to kill people, but you expect police to be trying to prevent that, not doing it. And only a crazy few blame all police. Do you really think all liberals believe these things? Or are you generalizing in exactly the same way you criticize people for generalizing?

My contribution to the megathread: Trump is an evil piece of shit!

Edit: cool, if you write shit! with an exclamation point, it doesn't get muddled. However, my experiments reveal that there seems to be no general rule at work here.
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:18am PT
Conservatives blame all Muslims for the crimes of a few
but never blame the few bad cops for anything.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:25am PT
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:29am PT
On cue with the childish sidewall busting pic.
Childish behavoir from a frightened child.
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:52am PT
It would be good for the site to corral the political rancor to a mega thread like it used to be before the wingnutz cried so much about politics crowding climbing content out. Oddly they then proceeded to start an appalling number of inane political threads about everything.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:53am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:58am PT
It must be a terrible mental conflict to be so in love with authoritarianism and so in hate with Government.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:08am PT
You lefties are a hate crime. How miserable you must be. Channel your self loathing for some affirmative action. It's never too late for your own post partum abortion. Be positive, act alone, silently, only on your selves, and today.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:29am PT
Nice try with the thread idea, but this will fail, as most others have, when the Chief sucks all of the air out of the room.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:31am PT
Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are. -- Benjamin Franklin

Men often mistake killing and revenge for justice. They seldom have the stomach for justice. -- Robert Jordan

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:32am PT
Another attempt at a US politics megathread. The goal is civil (if contentious) political discussion.

Well, that lasted almost two hours. Until Philo and The Chief woke up, turned on their computers, and destroyed the thread for everybody else.

Why don't you two start a special thread of your own? Better yet, Philo could start a "The Chief is an as#@&%e" thread, and The Chief could start a "Philo is an as#@&%e" thread, and you could shriek at one another to your hearts' content without polluting every thread on this site.
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:33am PT
^^^ Excellent Clinker.
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:38am PT
Ghost here's a suggestion if you don't like it don't read and comment.
That is how adults do it.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:49am PT
Phil, you miss the point.

I'm all for you and the Chief, and whoever else wants to join in, having your "You're an as#@&%e" "No, you're an as#@&%e" "F*#k you" "Well, f*#k you" conversation.

But I'm curious about why you are so inconsiderate that you have to do it on every single political thread. You're like selfish, spoiled eight-year-olds. You seem completely unable to understand that the world does not revolve around your need to hate.

Seriously -- why can't you confine your hatred to one or two threads? Why must you spill it into every political thread?
RyanD

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:52am PT



philo

climber

Nov 28, 2015 - 07:52am PT
It would be good for the site to corral the political rancor to a mega thread like it used to be before the wingnutz cried so much about politics crowding climbing content out. Oddly they then proceeded to start an appalling number of inane political threads about everything.

Hahahaha!!

Observation skills:

10/10

Edit-


Ghost's observation skills:

10/10


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 28, 2015 - 08:55am PT
Ghost, why do you spew your hate on every thread about other posters?

Why?
Why can't posters just post without either you or WTF or the Chief or a gang of other right wingers losers posting how much you hate them, and hate them posting some information that you don't agree with.

Please specify any "hate' that Philo posted.
You guys are just gang piling on philo because he is the latest target for you guys to jump all over with some stupid blame game.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 09:03am PT
Chief: Your definition of "fact" is pretty biased. I'm curious though, if the disproportionate killing of black people (armed and unarmed) by police is due to only a few police officers who are not representative of police at large, why is there a pervasive lack of prosecution for wrongful death? How is this not a cultural problem on the part of governmental power structures? And how is that a government who you insist over and over again can only screw things up when it comes to tax and economic policy be defended as unquestionable when it comes to life or death decisions?

There is a big difference between saying "all police are corrupt" and saying "police are part of a pervasive institutional racism that results in a disproportionate number of black deaths." If people of color can't even trust the people who are supposed to protect them, how are they supposed to live normal American lives?

Also, what gives with the "here's one black guy I found who appears to reinforce the opinion that I already have that allows me to ignore the millions of black people who disagree with me?"

The point of my original post was to point out that if the perpetrators of the crimes I linked were Muslim or middle-eastern the term "terrorism" would be thrown about with abandon.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:14am PT
What happened to the other politapocalypse thread?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:24am PT
The Growing Right-Wing Terror Threat
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/the-other-terror-threat.html?_r=0


The main terrorist threat in the United States is not from violent Muslim extremists, but from right-wing extremists. Just ask the police.

In a survey we conducted with the Police Executive Research Forum last year of 382 law enforcement agencies, 74 percent reported anti-government extremism as one of the top three terrorist threats in their jurisdiction; 39 percent listed extremism connected with Al Qaeda or like-minded terrorist organizations. And only 3 percent identified the threat from Muslim extremists as severe, compared with 7 percent for anti-government and other forms of extremism.


I guess ric was wrong, us liberals are not miserable, we are happy not to be a right winger on the FBI watch list.



Why not register and track Right Wing Christians? They hate our Government and our President.

Is Trump going to deport the Real Threat to America?
No, it's easier to blame and point fingers at some other minority group for our problems.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:52am PT
The real danger old Fry master is the division you and others constantly peddle. Your not celebrating diversity. Rather, because of your self loathing that you blame on a station in life you feel is imposed on you by others, you seek to bring what you falsely identify as those responsible down to your level of misery. We here, are just old and new climbers, we aren't responsible for your condition any more than any far removed ideology you constantly rail about. Accept sole responsibility for your own life and circumstance and the delusions will fade from view with the renewed focus on your path forward.

Of course, I could be very wrong; you might be a low level paid political hack.
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:54am PT
Tradhog care to illucidate why you feel compelled to attempt to leg hump me every chance you get? Try being an adult and ignoring what you don't like.


Seriously Rick are you 12?
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:28am PT
Seriously Philo? What are you 85 with a completely calcified brain? You sew discord like an endlessly repeating broken record of inspirational Hitler speeches.
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:32am PT
Ha ha ha wingnutz away.
Funny words from the resident fascist.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 10:55am PT
apogee asked
What happened to the other politapocalypse thread?

It got locked for some reason. I couldn't find that any of the other political threads got locked. I wrote an email asking for an explanation and have gotten no response.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 11:26am PT
Rick Sumner posted
The real danger old Fry master is the division you and others constantly peddle. Your not celebrating diversity. Rather, because of your self loathing that you blame on a station in life you feel is imposed on you by others, you seek to bring what you falsely identify as those responsible down to your level of misery. We here, are just old and new climbers, we aren't responsible for your condition any more than any far removed ideology you constantly rail about. Accept sole responsibility for your own life and circumstance and the delusions will fade from view with the renewed focus on your path forward.

This is a very well articulated example of the kind of defensive response to the idea that we have system that plays a very strong role in how people fare. Many people have a tough time separating systemic problems from individual responsibility (i.e. police as a whole treat black people very differently than non-whites so all police are racist or economic inequality is reinforced by public policy so it's the government's fault that I'm poor). Both things can in fact be true. People can be personally responsible for their own situation AND have the deck stacked horribly against them by a system rigged to do so. It's a classic white guilt sort of defense. It's a lot more comfortable to blame people for their situations than to have to accept some level of responsibility that we are all complicit in it.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 28, 2015 - 11:26am PT

If police shooting video had been released sooner, would Emanuel be mayor?

Kass: If Laquan were out, even a hug from the president wouldn't have saved Rahm

Would Mayor Rahm Emanuel have been re-elected if voters had seen the video of Laquan McDonald's execution?

No.

Rahm would have lost the election. Why? Because he would have lost Chicago's black vote.

Without the black vote, Rahm Emanuel would not be the 9.5-fingered boss of Bartertown.

Black political figures would have been uneasy standing with Rahm. They would have run away. They couldn't stand with him.

Not if that video came out during the election campaign, the video showing white cop Jason Van Dyke shooting McDonald, hitting him with two rounds, and then, with McDonald on the ground, hitting him with 14 more shots.

Emanuel could have even sat in President Barack Obama's lap for a photo — both of them wearing matching Dr. Denton pajamas (the kind with the feet) and sipping identical cups of cocoa.
Warning, graphic content: Laquan McDonald shooting dash-cam video

Warning graphic content: Chicago officials released the police dash-cam video of the October 2014 fatal shooting of Laquan McDonald, 17, by a Chicago police officer. Warning: This video contains graphic images. The Chicago Tribune edited this version only for length.

And that still wouldn't have saved him.

So Emanuel buried the video. And black politicians and clergy got busy getting out the vote for Rahm. He won the April 7 runoff election, and only then did he have the aldermen vote to pay a $5 million settlement to the McDonald family.

If the video had been out, if Chicago had watched it before going to the polls, Emanuel would have lost the black vote. You'd have to be a meat puppet to think otherwise. And you're not a meat puppet, are you?

But just to make sure of my theory, I called the one guy who'd know: Cook County Commissioner Jesus "Chuy" Garcia, the mayor's opponent in the 2015 election.

"Yes," Garcia told me over the phone. "That video would definitely have changed the political environment.

"The rug would have been pulled out from under many political leaders' feet. Things would have been different," he said.
Emanuel holds others accountable on police shooting video, not himself
Emanuel holds others accountable on police shooting video, not himself

"And now, with the video out and people seeing it, everywhere I go people ask me about it. Everywhere I go people tell me it would have been a game changer. If people had seen it, they would have said, this city is so corrupt, it's time for a change."

But they didn't see it, until it was too late.

"There's just some basic Chicago arithmetic in there. He wouldn't have received as much votes from the African-American community," Garcia said. "It isn't rocket science. It's arithmetic. And so yes, this tragic video would have had a profound impact."

Which is why Rahm didn't want it to be seen, why he had to do everything to keep it under wraps. And he did do everything to keep it under wraps, until the other day.

"And that's the Chicago Way," Garcia said.

Yes it is.

You can see the truth of it by watching the other politicians scrambling for cover in the wake of the Laquan McDonald video release.

They don't like questions about how they helped Rahm win. That puts the jacket on them. And they don't want to wear the jacket.

So they're stitching one up for Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez, who charged Van Dyke with murder the other day.

They want Alvarez to wear the jacket for it all.

Rahm seems to be throwing her under his bus, but he doesn't want his fingerprints on her. So his ally, David Axelrod, threw her under.

Axelrod is a Rahm pal, but for years he was also the mouthpiece for former Mayor Richard Daley, and was the top political and media strategist for Obama. It's a Chicago thing.

"Why did it take a year to indict a CPD officer who shot a kid 16 times?" Axelrod tweeted Tuesday night. "Would it have happened today if judge hadn't ordered video release?"

That puts it on Alvarez. Does she deserve it?

I don't think so. To me, she's not the issue.

The video threatened Rahm Emanuel and his pursuit of power. Alvarez told reporters she'd been waiting for the feds to issue a joint announcement with her office. That didn't happen.

Funny how things work out.

Axelrod's tweet legitimizes a self-preservation tactic Chicago politicians have been pursuing for the last day or so: They know people are angry over what happened to 17-year-old McDonald. They want to be safe from that anger. So they're directing the mob to go against Alvarez.

On Wednesday, I headed over to my old haunts at City Hall to see the circus in action. The City Council's Black Caucus had called a news conference, and there, in one rambling, cloudy speech after another, they made it clear they weren't responsible for a thing and that there needed to be changes.

Not their jobs. And not Rahm's. Instead, they saved their outrage for police Superintendent Garry McCarthy and Alvarez. Then they rambled some more.

But even in cloudy waters you might still see a slippery bullhead, if you can spot the fins or the chin whiskers. And so I reached down, got my hand wet and asked:

Would Emanuel have won the African-American vote if that video had been seen before the election?

Most just looked at me as if I were a space alien saying "I come in peace" in some frightening alien tongue of clicks and whistles that they couldn't understand.

Later, I cornered one of the aldermen and asked again.

"No," said the alderman, meaning no, Rahm would not have won the election. "But you already knew that. Why are you asking us?"

jskass@tribpub.com

Twitter @John_Kass
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 11:35am PT
Great posts HDDJ, you are on a roll.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 28, 2015 - 11:47am PT
Several GOP presidential contenders have advocated treating the nation’s growing heroin epidemic as a health crisis, not a criminal one. But most stop short of advocating the same approach to other drug laws, notably those involving marijuana and crack cocaine, which disproportionately affect African Americans.

Such views highlight the resonance and reach of the opiate epidemic — but also a persistent racial and geographic divide in American politics. The heroin epidemic has overwhelmingly hit whites. It has also skyrocketed to the top of voters’ lists of political priorities in the same bands of America — rural states, the suburbs and notably the early voting state of New Hampshire — that track directly with where Republicans must perform well to win back the White House next year.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 12:56pm PT
That's right, Ken. It's a great example of how public policy gets shaped when things are happening to "us" and not "them." It's also the right thing to do.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 28, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
We have division alright

One side tries to consider all angles, science, facts, other peoples feelings, injustice and how to make things better for all.

The other side uses lies, misinformation and propaganda to demonize the other side because they don't have anything to offer.

They lie about climate change, evolution, politics, the liberal progressive cause, and everything else in the way of their greed and quest for power.

They have highly paid shills that lie 24/7 about how bad the liberals are.
They project their worst qualities on their enemy.
They cheat and steal elections.

Everything bad about this country is a result of their policies,
all the debt, all the deregulation, crumbling infrastructure, bad schools, homeless vets, high suicide rates, offshored labor
Not a single policy they have is good for the general population, it's all aimed at making the rich richer and the poor poorer, be able to pollute more, cheat more, screw someone more.

Their deception knows no bounds, the right wing have created a deeply divided country based on lies. Then they blame the liberals for the division.

History has shown us how easily the populace can be divided by lies, there are personalities that would rather believe lies so they can justify their hate. It is a typical right wing response, blame the others, divide and conquer.
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
Well said Craig
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Nov 28, 2015 - 03:44pm PT
In politics stupidity is not a handicap. -- Napoleon Bonaparte

Cheers to reaching new heights.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Nov 28, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
This incorporates politics and Boobs [Click to View YouTube Video]with classic country and old rock n' roll
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 28, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
Bravo Craig. But for a few names you have the left wingers down to T in your little rant above.

Let's get specific though: Obama, "there is no red America there is no blue America there is only the United states of america", " what is not patriotic is running up the debt like Bush did", " if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor", " the average premium will decrease by $2500", " climate change is the number 1 existential threat to mankind not the contained JV team of ISIL". Hillary: " I dodged sniper fire on the tarmac in Bosnia", "Benghazi was the result of an offensive video", " none of the emails were classified".

And these stellar truth tellers are the "leaders "you idiots elevate to a platform to worship. Pathetic. Get out of L.A. with your family before all your brain cells are destroyed.
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
Rick why do you hate America?

Who are these worshipers of which you speak?
Have you conveniently forgotten the state of near implosion that Geoge W Bush left this country in?
Have you forgotten how any dissent against the Bush neocon party line and agenda would get people lablled as traitors or worse?

Do you suffer from cognitive dissonance, Obama Derangement Syndrome (O.D.S.) or both?

Again Rick I ask why do you hate America?
Norton

Social climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 05:26pm PT
???

so now "lying" is SO important to you Rick Wasilla?

then why did you vote FOR the LIAR Mitt Romney?

morals and "lying" is such a big deal to you, Piss Ant

go ahead, google Romney's lies during the 2012 campaign and tell us why
you voted for a a huge LIAR

then tell us why you voted for George Bush again, the second time in 2004 when
it was clear to everyone that he lied about WMD in Iraq

over 3000 American soldiers died in Iraq, because you voted for a LIAR

why do YOU keep voting for LIARS, sh!t head?
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 05:28pm PT
Why does he hate America?
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 05:42pm PT
^^^ leghumper
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
No you half baked half wit you crawl out from the baseboards everytime I am posting.
Your sole intent is to demonstrate the limit of your intellect and your depraved obssession with leg humping.

Your arrogance exposes your ignorance.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 28, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
Never voted for Bush Norton. Please inform us of all Romney's lies, and be specific. And by the way Norton, what is your ACA premium looking like these days? Why aren't you receiving veterans healthcare benefits anyway, did the pissant's fail to deliver as promised?

Why are you so miserable Philo?
John M

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:00pm PT
Please specify any "hate' that Philo posted.


Here you go Craig, right on the first page.

On cue with the childish sidewall busting pic.
Childish behavior from a frightened child.

Try being an adult and ignoring what you don't like.

So we should ignore gun deaths.. or cops killing blacks in disproportionate numbers?
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
Out of context and still free of hate. Try again.


My comments that you quoted were made to someone who was trying to disrupt the exact conversation you mentioned.
John M

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
Philo says …..be an adult, just ignore what you don't like..

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Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
Sorry it has to degrade to this Philo
Right wingers have to out do each other in being what they are best at

smear and lie
who can be the biggest a-hole, who can say the most inflammatory remarks possible,
it's a game, whoever say's the worst possible BS about the other side wins!!




TradHog


Trad climber

Yellow Rose of Texas

Nov 28, 2015 - 06:11pm PT
Pretty well known that Pillos real hate is reserved for the Jews. Sad. I recently read he would drive the tractor that pushes them all into a ditch. Now that is hate ya'll.

why would you make up such BS?
What the hell is wrong with you, you know Philo never said a word about jews

are you sick?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:28pm PT
On cue with the childish sidewall busting pic.
Childish behavior from a frightened child.

You call this hate??
are you serious???

that's just an reaction to the OP commentary, no lame photos
it was completely provoked by a poster that blatantly disregards all requests for civil behavior
like a 4th grade child

unbelievably pathetic as an example


now he is trying to word bomb the thread
wow? so loving and respectful
such a great way to show how right you are
thanks
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:34pm PT
If they don't like the messenger they try to kill the message.
Craig that absurd and obscene accusation was made earlier by Guyman, another knee jerking leg humper. He was called out about it. But that won't stop my anti-fan club from doing what they learned from FOX and the GOP. Lie, repeat, lie, repeat.
It says more about them and their weakness of character and limited intellect than anything else.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
Just post until we get to the next page.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
osaodina ioas diasj
pasj dpiasj dpiasj dpisaj

ja sopd
js a
podj sap
ojsap
oj apsod j
pada
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
There we go.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:46pm PT
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:47pm PT
Dinner at the asylum must be over.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 28, 2015 - 06:54pm PT
Chris will have to freeze this thread now

these people just cannot maintain a civil discussion
we can call them the brown shirts, because that's how they act
attack, pummel, post lame cartoons, post lies, smears and propaganda
and never account for anything, since of course they have no facts to back up anything they spew.

They want to shut it down.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2015 - 07:07pm PT
Alright. Page 3 and we've already got one dude rage pasting to annoy people into winning an argument and a cartoon that takes a long walk just to make a petty sexist/racist joke.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
How very sad.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
It must be awful being you.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:42pm PT
"It got locked for some reason. "

Ah. Got it.

Probably got 'frozen' under the terms of the policy implemented a few months ago towards any thread the devolves primarily into namecalling personal attacks.

Countdown until this one sees the same fate? The same players are already sending it in that direction....

10

9

8

7

6.....
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:56pm PT
namecalling personal attacks

Ah, like the true underlying theme of not only this politard thread, but of ALL politard based threads, from BOTH sides of the aisle.

Go figure.



Oh yeah, love this....

these people just cannot maintain a civil discussion

After the following posts from the same individual....

Right wingers have to out do each other in being what they are best at

smear and lie
who can be the biggest a-hole, who can say the most inflammatory remarks possible,

it's a game, whoever say's the worst possible BS about the other side wins!!

You call this hate??
are you serious???

that's just an reaction to the OP commentary, no lame photos
it was completely provoked by a poster that blatantly disregards all requests for civil behavior
like a 4th grade child

unbelievably pathetic as an example

now he is trying to word bomb the thread
wow? so loving and respectful
such a great way to show how right you are
thanks

The other side uses lies, misinformation and propaganda to demonize the other side because they don't have anything to offer.


Now what was that about ...

namecalling personal attacks




Oh the ironeeeeeeeee that abounds here.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:21pm PT
5...

4...

3...
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2015 - 05:08am PT
apogee posted
Probably got 'frozen' under the terms of the policy implemented a few months ago towards any thread the devolves primarily into namecalling personal attacks.

I assumed the same, but the last page of that thread was perfectly decent conversation while the usual suspects were involved in a frothing at the mouth rantfest in at least 2 other threads that are still unlocked.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 06:15am PT
perfectly decent conversation

That is of course if your consider unceasing Ball Cupping between the same half dozen ideologically politard like minded individuals as a decent conversation.

But then again....
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:00am PT
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:17am PT
Hey Philo, you forgot these so unimportant factoids...

So much for "Black Lives Matter", Student Age Americans and the Poor under Obama.


More children living in poverty now than during recession...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/20/more-children-living-poverty-now-than-during-recession/30415391/

That’s rich: Poverty level under Obama breaks 50-year record
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jan/7/obamas-rhetoric-on-fighting-poverty-doesnt-match-h/?page=all


Number of homeless students in U.S. has doubled since before the recession
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/number-of-us-homeless-students-has-doubled-since-before-the-recession/2015/09/14/0c1fadb6-58c2-11e5-8bb1-b488d231bba2_story.html



And you supposedly claim to be all bent out of shape and so worried about the Children in America, PHILO!



Shsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssh. Don't tell anyone huh, PHILO!


apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:21am PT
Maybe the title of this one is just too blatantly off the mark of ST's purpose? Or were the other two topics just as OT?

Or maybe the mods only had enough time to freeze one topic that day, and more will follow?

Who knows.

The 'usual suspects' are always going to be here until the get the whack, or they self- select out. In the meantime, there isn't much point in hand-wringing about them. Just don't engage them.
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:22am PT
Yes we were so much better off under Shrub the Alcoholic cocaine fueled deserter from the military and the Neo-Cons.
Life was just so peachy keen then.
Not like the current disaster we are barely surviving.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:33am PT
I knew you'd agree with me PHILO after the FACTS of how your POTUS were posted regarding how he has ineffectively remedied the poor conditions for the CHILDREN, STUDENTS and BLACKS of America.

Pretty disgusting isn't it, PHILO.


Yet he states we should take in Refugees. All the while the Poverty level for the Children, Students and Blacks here keeps going up and up and up.
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:35am PT
Got delusion?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:41am PT
Hey Philo, just fact checked of two of the propaganda lies on the chart you posted...


Gas prices fall below $1.87: Nov 26, 2008
http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/26/news/economy/gas_prices_sink/


Unemployment Rate at 6.8 for Men and 5.5 for Women in Nov of 2008
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/empsit_12052008.pdf



Gee, I wonder how them other numbers stack up to the actual, FACTS??? PHILO!






Norton

Social climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:45am PT
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:52am PT
Well this is a rather depressing fact. Pretty sad how the "Gov't" can manipulate the truth in order to make itself look good.



The Big Lie: 5.6% Unemployment
by Jim Clifton

Here's something that many Americans -- including some of the smartest and most educated among us -- don't know: The official unemployment rate, as reported by the U.S. Department of Labor, is extremely misleading.

Right now, we're hearing much celebrating from the media, the White House and Wall Street about how unemployment is "down" to 5.6%. The cheerleading for this number is deafening. The media loves a comeback story, the White House wants to score political points and Wall Street would like you to stay in the market.

None of them will tell you this: If you, a family member or anyone is unemployed and has subsequently given up on finding a job -- if you are so hopelessly out of work that you've stopped looking over the past four weeks -- the Department of Labor doesn't count you as unemployed. That's right. While you are as unemployed as one can possibly be, and tragically may never find work again, you are not counted in the figure we see relentlessly in the news -- currently 5.6%. Right now, as many as 30 million Americans are either out of work or severely underemployed. Trust me, the vast majority of them aren't throwing parties to toast "falling" unemployment.

There's another reason why the official rate is misleading. Say you're an out-of-work engineer or healthcare worker or construction worker or retail manager: If you perform a minimum of one hour of work in a week and are paid at least $20 -- maybe someone pays you to mow their lawn -- you're not officially counted as unemployed in the much-reported 5.6%. Few Americans know this.
http://www.gallup.com/opinion/chairman/181469/big-lie-unemployment.aspx


No wonder Mr. Obama "looks" so good. Just like he has "Contained" ISIS/ISIL etc.




philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:00am PT
Time to clear your shethead.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:09am PT
Just found this OTHER Factual Number PHILO!!!


U.S. Uninsured Rate at 11.6% in Third Quarter 2015
http://www.gallup.com/poll/186047/uninsured-rate-third-quarter.aspx


NOT the 9.2% YOUR propaganda picture depicts. Amazingly, the "Uninsured Rate" under this POTUS has been at a sustained level ABOVE that under the last POTUS.

WTF is up with that, PHILO!




EDIT:

And these two Facts...




philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:25am PT
side wall
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:26am PT
psycho
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:26am PT
at it
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:26am PT
again.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:28am PT
And the Poor just keep on getting poorer under MR "HOPE" Obama!!





So much for all this "Black Lives Matter" and "Poor Lives Matter" bullshet. HUH, PHILO!
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:06am PT
looks like some good progress and healthy discourse here. you folks keep it up.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:34am PT
Nice try with the thread idea, but this will fail, as most others have, when the PHILLO sucks all of the air out of the room.


Fixed that for you........

and by the way Phillo is a pice of dung... hates all Jews. No need to go back over all his worthless post history... it is very clear, like a alpine blue sky.
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:38am PT
Aw Guyman telling more lies.
How cute.
But little man you'll need a step stool to hump my leg.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:17pm PT
This is what's called an ugly vulgar personal attack
and by the way Phillo is a pice of dung... hates all Jews
guyman

see how he specifies the name of the person he is directing his hate to.
It's despicable the things these people say as personal attacks

what reasonable response does Philo have to such a degrading bigoted attack based on total lies?
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
Keep up the good work, philo. You've got the tea party fringe all worked up.
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
It's
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
So very
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
Easy
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 07:33pm PT
You've got the tea party fringe all worked up.

Well it's not like they are a formidable brain trust.
philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:29pm PT
Sigh..... this is all so predictable. A political thread, the Chief et al jump(s) in, all noise, frustration, bullsh#t, condemnation, evisceration, menstruation. Please just STFU and let honest discourse and conversation take place. Yeah, I know what the Chief will say and frankly I don't give a shit! since it is the same old shit! we've seen and heard before.

Seriously, Chief, you should just stop. You are not always right, as you know we aren't. But at least admit that, maybe, you don't know everything. But that would be too much of a leap of understanding and introspection, so good luck with that.

I made the pledge to myself some time ago to not respond to the chief. I still hold to that pledge, except for this post, as I know what the chief is doing; this is my last post on this thread which has, amazingly, astoundingly, turned to bullsh#t. Big surprise. Thanks chief, for shutting off civil discourse. I guess it's really about who can shout the loudest. The air has left the room.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 29, 2015 - 09:37pm PT
Stick around, winemaker. Just don't engage the hopeless.

Greasemonkey works well too, from what I hear.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
Whineymaker's true definition of "civil discourse" in a nutshell:

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Nice try with the thread idea, but this will fail, as most others have, when the PHILLO sucks all of the air out of the room.


Fixed that for you........

and by the way Phillo is a piece of dung... hates all Jews. No need to go back over all his worthless post history... it is very clear, like a alpine blue sky.

Simply put Guyman....


philo

climber
Nov 29, 2015 - 10:44pm PT
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 30, 2015 - 06:55am PT





Here's a little more of your fine logic.....


d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Nov 30, 2015 - 07:23am PT
Just duh chief,
not The.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 07:57am PT
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2015/11/colorado_springs_planned_parenthood_anti_abortion_violence.html

As news continues to unfold about Friday’s Planned Parenthood shooting in Colorado Springs, one thing is clear: Domestic terrorism remains unchecked, even on the day after Thanksgiving. To label this an isolated act of violence would be naïve. In 2015 alone, there has been unprecedented harassment from anti-choice extremists, including most recently, a series of slanderous manipulated videos used to attack Planned Parenthood’s fetal tissue donation programs. And now this.

We can speculate long and hard about the gunman’s motives or targets, but what is more significant—what keeps me up at night as an OB/GYN physician—is the concern that we as a nation have become complacent. Was it truly a shock that something so horrific emerged only weeks after anti–Planned Parenthood rhetoric dominated the presidential candidate debates? What was all of this manipulative campaigning if not an invitation to incite hate? And now this.

We agonize over external threats, overlooking the extremism, bigotry, and hatred that lives down the street.
A few people were injured and only a few people died, some headlines will say. That’s not so many compared to the recent acts of terrorism in Paris. But here’s the irony: This is a homegrown terrorist, one that no amount of passport authentication or refugee rejection could have stopped. We spend all this effort agonizing over external threats, all the while overlooking the extremism, bigotry, and hatred that lives down the street. And now this.

This is a sign of crisis. When women are too scared to seek medical care for fear of being shot on the way to clinic, we are in crisis mode. This is beyond bullying and this is no longer simply a politicizing issue. This is a runaway train on which nobody is pulling the brakes. How far does this have to play out before we can stop pretending that abortion care is not real health care? Since 1977, there have been eight murders, 17 attempted murders, 42 bombings, 186 arsons, and thousands of incidents of criminal activity associated with U.S. abortion clinics. These numbers do not include what happened in Colorado Springs.

As a physician, I worry about patients. I worry that women will be too scared or intimidated to seek the medical care they deserve and need. I also worry about the men and women who work daily to maintain access to reproductive health care: clinic staff, legislators, advocates. This is the point of terrorism, though, is it not—to incite fear and paralysis? So what then is the solution? The solution is strength and bravery in numbers, and it’s a more accurate depiction of abortion in the media. It’s also government accountability.

In 1998, after the shooting of abortion provider Barnett Slepian, the U.S. Department of Justice established a Task Force on Violence Against Health Care Providers. This is the group that coordinates national investigations of incidents like that in Colorado Springs. There are also efforts in place to prevent such tragedies from happening in the first place. The Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act prohibits any violent, threatening, damaging, or obstructive act that interferes with obtaining or providing abortions. These are the laws. How we choose to uphold them, however, is a different story.

Anti-choice terrorism can be stopped. When it’s recognized for what it truly is, and when preventing it is given enough support on both sides of the aisle, this can be stopped. As with many critical issues, the first step is often the most difficult—recognizing that there is a problem. We are there now, and we need legitimate, sustainable solutions before this happens again.
philo

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:07am PT
Hey Duh Chuff, one of the dead in C. Springs was a father of two small children and an Iraq War vet. Where is the outrage for one of your fallen brothers in arms?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:13am PT
The exact same place your "Outrage" is for this Mother.

Thing is, you most assuredly not only do not know who she and over 165 other Mothers this year from the same community are, BUT, you do not give a flying fk.

Cus it just doesn't go along with your obscene and totally skewed ideological agenda...



Oh yeah... and your POTUS states NOT one peep about this or the other over 379 like incidents just this year alone in the same community. Which just so happens to be the same location he worked as a.... "Community Service Organizer".
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:14am PT
Kid shoulda been packing. Dangerous hood and all.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:18am PT
Selective outrage is
so convenient.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:21am PT
As that Vet that was tragically shot and killed should have. But unfortunately for him, this Liberal Logic was imposed on him and his peers...



Go figure...



PS: Same goes for them Uniformed MARINES that were shot dead in TN. They were NOT allowed to be armed either.

Go figure that one out as well....


Selective outrage is
so convenient.

HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:22am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:58am PT
I guess it's not worth debating

but someone has to say something against this asinine "talking point" of it was attacked because it was a "gun Free Zone"

All hospitals, medical centers, schools, libraries, malls, and most pubic areas are **F*#king Gun Free Zones**

Now we have to worry about Gun Free Zones???

No we don't, THEY WILL BE SHOT UP AS MUCH AS ANY GUN LEGAL ZONE.

These deranged gunman do not go to "Gun Free Zones" to shoot up people.
They go to areas that certain people are that they want to KILL.

Like Planned Parenthood,

If any of that BS was true, why do they shoot Cops?
They could get shot first!
They don't give a sh#t, they want to kill cops because they hate cops.

But go ahead and make an idiot out yourselves by trying to convince us that "Gun Free Zones" are the problem.
It's just so typical that the right wing puts out this BS, and you guys try and defend it, that's truly a symptom of cultish behavior.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 09:17am PT
In a gun free zone you know right away that the person carrying a gun is a threat. A few months ago there were people targeting police officers in public places. Those weren't gun free zones and the target was armed...didn't stop them. Arizona has open carry, concealed carry and every other kind of carry but it didn't help Gabby Giffords nor deter the I10 sniper and Arizona still ranks 16th for homicide and 14th for gun fatalities. If you apply the NRA logic that gets quoted over and over about Chicago and DC homicide rates then places like Arizona should rank among the lowest. Hawaii is lowest for gun deaths and they require registration for all weapons and issue essentially 0 concealed/open carry permits. Turns out that if you have strict gun laws and people can't just take a train to somewhere with more permissive laws you can actually lower firearm death rates.

Someone make that into an oversimplified cartoon please. Thanks.
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 30, 2015 - 09:20am PT
Democracy kind of sucks, in that you have to deal with the fact that the majority may not share your opinions. This happens to everyone, from time to time. How you deal with the frustration is an individual decision.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Nov 30, 2015 - 09:21am PT
I can't fathom it, but not matter what I learn something every day here on the big "S". President Vermin Supreme does have a certain ring to it.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 10:21am PT
Ragetta posted
But that is just the point. Perps and nutcases, alike, simply CAN travel to various locations to purchase firearms. Legislating restriction does absolutely nothing to solve that problem. The various violent or unstable persons who commit these crimes are not persons who have any particular regard for the law.

You can keep making an anecdotal argument if it suits you, but you're leaping over the evidence to arrive at your desired conclusion. America has the most liberal gun ownership laws among developed nations and also the highest number of homicides and gun deaths. The other developed nations with low gun ownership rates due to legislation also have low gun death rates (and also homicide rates). If lower gun ownership and prohibitive laws were correlated with higher vulnerability, then all those numbers would be opposite. The evidence is that legislation actually DOES do quite a bit to solve the problem. The problem isn't that Chicago has strict gun ownership, it's that all the places around Chicago have permissive gun ownership. Likewise, if Chicago encouraged gun ownership, there's no evidence that this would actually lower homicides or crimes being that plenty of places with permissive gun laws also have high crime rates.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 30, 2015 - 10:47am PT
Hi, Ragetta!
dirtbag

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 10:51am PT
Hi, Lois!
Norton

Social climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 10:59am PT

take a hike LEB

you are toxic

your last five usernames have been deactivated by Chris and RJ

they don't want you here, can't be any clearer
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 11:00am PT
Ragetta, you're skimming over my post or something as I've already rebutted the point you keep repeating. Restating it again doesn't make it a stronger argument. And you're right, the statistics don't support a causative conclusion if you just look at Chicago. If only there were scientists who had studied gun ownership and homicide rates across developed nations...




...oh wait.

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.


2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.


3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.


4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.


They're largely from healthcare journals though and I think we both know that healthcare professionals are ill equipped to perform research and statistical analysis on data sets pertaining to causes of death and injury, right Ragetta? I mean, we can't even got those people to wash their hands!

*edit* - So what if it's LEB, guys. There's no reason to attack someone for making civil argument. It's a million times better than the political blog cut/paste that makes up 2/3 of the posts. Engage on the issues.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 11:17am PT
Again, Ragetta, the evidence does not support your argument. And the research conclusion is not "Guns are a problem in the US" it's that "places with more guns have more deaths." Other developed nations have no fewer "nut cases" (and the mentally ill are not the driving force behind our homicide rates) but they have way less guns and way less deaths. You are suggesting that if we outlawed gun ownership entirely, we would have the exact same number of homicides because anyone who wanted to violate the law would be able to do so. Who is being naive, exactly?

LEB/Louis was banned for getting too aggressive is my understanding. I was absent when she got axed, I only got to enjoy the years of thick-headedness leading up to it. She was famous for posting in a similar pattern to what you just did where I rebutted your point with new information and you kind of ignored it and just restated your point. She did a lot of trolling by playing dumb which is fine within itself but at some point it must have gotten ugly, even by Taco standards.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Nov 30, 2015 - 11:29am PT
Post a climbing pic,
xyz.
John M

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 11:33am PT
I am fairly new here so I do not really know what you have posted previously. I

Lois, if you don't want people to jump on your case, then don't lie. We know who you are. Just own it. Most of us don't care anymore if you post here. Burch made it back and is public and hasn't been banned. So just post, and stop with the nonsense. You know all the players.

Norton.. leave her be please.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 30, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
Well, Lois, looks like your cover is blown. Didja wonder how long it was going to take?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 30, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

This sort of correlation runs into a technical statistical problem of multicollinearity. The same sort of thing shows up when comparing police expenditures to murder rates. There is a strong positive correlation between police expenditures and murder rates. It would be easy to conclude (erroneously) that higher police expenditures increase murder rates. More likely, high murder rates lead the public to demand increased police protection. Unraveling that mystery requires more than merely determining correlations. One must also construct and test models of causation. In the case of police expenditures, those models show that police expenditures have no statistically significant causal relationship to murder rates, but murder rates have a statistically significant causal relationship to police expenditures.

Higher gun availability may reflect a desire of the public for increased self-protection for people from areas with high murder rates. I don't see the tests for causality in the studies HDDJ cites.

On the other hand, I also don't see tests for causality in the statistics cited by opponents of gun control, when, for example, they show places with very strict gun laws, such as Washington D.C. and Chicago, have very high firearm and total homicide rates. I think the issue is far from resolved.

I particularly discount studies from countries that don't have a Second Amendment equivalent with a correspondingly large number of illegally owned firearms. The comparisons differ too much.

I realize this lacks the sort of ad hominem attack prevalent on this page, but I thought a little variety could be useful.

John
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
Ragetta posted
I am absolutely saying that anyone who wished to acquire a gun could do so - just like anyone who wishes to acquire pot can do so. You cannot legislate "morality." Are you aware that persons who wish to use heroin can have it delivered to their door? Black marketeers are businessmen and they fill a need.

So you're saying that I can run down to my neighborhood black market and buy a rocket launcher right now? That all illegal things are as attainable as other illegal things? Also, how do you explain the effect in the research I posted? And who said anything about legislating morality? We're talking about legislating gun ownership.

John posted
Higher gun availability may reflect a desire of the public for increased self-protection for people from areas with high murder rates. I don't see the tests for causality in the studies HDDJ cites.

On the other hand, I also don't see tests for causality in the statistics cited by opponents of gun control, when, for example, they show places with very strict gun laws, such as Washington D.C. and Chicago, have very high firearm and total homicide rates. I think the issue is far from resolved.

There are very few things that pass a "test for causality." Arguably, nothing does. There is no actual "test for causality" that HIV causes AIDS but there is so far a 100% correlation that people with AIDS test positive for HIV.

There is a very strong correlation between high rates of gun ownership (state vs state, country vs country) and high rates of death/suicide. There is no correlation between being a refugee and committing acts of violence. Why so eager to act on something with no evidence and such reluctance to act on something with evidence?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 12:33pm PT
Holy crap it IS Lois. Welcome back!

*edit*

Now about your research. Please summarize it more succinctly and we will discuss it further

If you're really too lazy to read something that's already summarized and bullet pointed I got nothing for ya, man.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 30, 2015 - 12:37pm PT
There are very few things that pass a "test for causality."

That's why merely showing a correlation demonstrates less than most people contend. Without testing for causality, we can't determine "nonsense correlations" from causal ones. Showing the correlation is an important step, but it's not a sufficient one to address the arguments most purport to address.

John
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
Most of the decisions doctors and economists made are based on correlations, many of them much weaker than what I posted. Perfect causality is only demanded by people who aren't interested in doing the things that need doing. Do you have evidence that would contradict the possible causation that I've proposed? Or that would suggest another cause? Newton's Laws of Physics are wrong. They're just right enough to get us to the Moon. I wish we could be that wrong about gun control.
philo

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 12:42pm PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
Got a full patient load, then?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 30, 2015 - 12:55pm PT
Good luck to you not getting the axe again, Lois!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 30, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
HDDJ, competent economists and doctors use more than mere correlation. They demand evidence of causation, not merely disproof of non-causation. Otherwise, doctors would urge the government to ban marriages, since they exhibit a strong, positive correlation with death rates over time. A good discussion of nonsense correlations and their dangers is here:

http://statpics.blogspot.com/2014/05/nonsense-correlations.html


Factcheck.org supports my point, that the issue is unsettled, by emphasizing the need to show causality:

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

John

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
John- Lots of medical decisions are made with mere correlative evidence. Lots more than that are made with no evidence at all. We are currently onramping the widespread use of a certain drug for trauma patients based on correlative evidence.

America is an experiment in gun ownership. The rest of the world is the control group. Here's how that is working out:








WOW THIS IS A TOTAL MYSTERY WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH ALL THOSE GUN DEATHS IN AMERICA WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE THE CAUSE I GUESS WE'LL NEVER KNOW
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 30, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
Grasping at straws

It's much easier to just deny good science and accept talking points produced by the NRA
Norton

Social climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
Nov 30, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
Donald will be your daddy for 8 years and this is why:

first, he has money to buy everyone in DC.,this includes all the whores in the house and sen

Sec,he is anti-immigrant of all colors which adds extra vote from radicals to his box

third,he will start the middle east WW3

and forth, the religious followers love a man like Don

so repeat after me

Donald is my daddy






The other alternative is Clinton but you all know that no women will ever become the leader of this country so don't fool yourself

Vote for your Daddy

meanwhile

http://www.mintpressnews.com/211624-2/211624/

John M

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
I am still trying to be certain that I understand your position correctly. You want legislation which would bar all private citizens from owning any firearms? Is that a correct statement of your views?

LOL.. welcome to hell gentlemen. Everything is black and white to Lois. HDDJ says gun control and she interprets it to mean he doesn't want any private citizen to own a gun. This is the sad reality of certain kinds of people. They just can't see beyond black and white.

Lois, I gave you good advice about pretending to be someone else. Don't carry it too far. It pisses off the natives when they think someone is trying to pull one over on them.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 30, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
My ST imposter instincts aren't convinced that our new poster is LEB

I think we should let him/her speak freely.
Maybe this person can give us more details about his/her life so no more confusion will continue.

But the response about Gun Control was really off the mark.

No one has said "You want legislation which would bar all private citizens from owning any firearms?"
where in the heck did that come from?

Clueless or troll

that's the either or
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 30, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
Craig, it's Lois.

Trust me on this one.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 04:02pm PT
Craig, there are a lot of unmistakable clues in her writing style, viewpoints, and ways of addressing arguments that I won't reveal here (though I could in an email, if you like).

My Lois detection radar has been wrong once, but right every other time, and I'm confident about this time.

Edit: and I say all this without any hard feelings or desire to see her banned.
philo

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 04:05pm PT
LEBification underway.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 04:07pm PT
Ok, who do folks think will be the republican nominee?

I still say Rubio, just because he is most likely to be the last man standing.

Contenders: trump and cruz.

John M

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 04:07pm PT
Is Norton the only person who cares if she is back or not? For some reason she doesn't get under my skin as much anymore. Except perhaps the pretending. We sure use to argue though. haha..

no idea on who will be the republican nominee. I can't get those folks figured out.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 30, 2015 - 04:13pm PT
Rubio plays well even if he is owned by the big bucks, but Cruz has got a better ground game in place imo. Too early to tell, could be many surprises before the Feb 1 kickoff.

Why all the fear and loathing of this LEB/Lois character? What is it anyway?
John M

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 04:19pm PT
Lois/LEB is a nurse practitioner lady who drove this forum nuts a few years ago. man.. if you think about it, it was seriously funny. We were owned. There are so many threads about her. More then anyone else in the history of the forum, including Bachar. Once she started posting, the forum became about her. Burchy/PHilo and the Chief are close, but LEB is the ultimate. And she doesn't even climb.

This was a very funny post by Karl baba which hit home.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/497677/Loiss-Law-and-The-Loising-Point

philo

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 30, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
*We* Don’t Make Heroes Out of Violent Psychopaths

A violent psychopath went on a shooting spree near a Planned Parenthood butcher shop over Thanksgiving weekend.

He will not become a martyr and symbol of any movement, like violent thug Michael Brown.

No one on the right will wear a T-shirt or wave a banner emblazoned with his image, like mass-murdering communist icon Che Guevara.

He will not be given a teaching position at the University of Illinois and become a celebrated community organizer like unrepentant left-wing terrorist Bill Ayers.

He will not be given a job as a correspondent for taxpayer-funded NPR, become a cause celebre among the Hollywood left, and given honorary degrees like left-wing cop-killer Mumia Abu Jamal.

The Right does not make violent sociopaths into heroes.

The Left does.

You will also not see anyone on the left go out of their way to claim that he does not represent the peaceful majority of people who oppose abortion-for-convenience.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 30, 2015 - 05:34pm PT
^"they're just words that have very little relationship to reality"^ -mumia

[Click to View YouTube Video]

he shot those cops, for sure. his trial was a miscarriage of justice. not that it matters to you or me or anyone but him.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 30, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
TGT, excellent post.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 30, 2015 - 06:04pm PT
Despicable. Referring to Michael Brown as a "violence thug" is typical fringe racism.
Extremist rightwing rhetoric likely helped create the environment that motivated Robert Lewis Dear.

Shame on you.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 30, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
He was a violent thug that perpetrated a strong arm robbery minutes before his demise.

One amusement to me, as a lonely disbeliever on the right, is noticing this about the Left: The Left imagines that their disbelief in God frees them from superstition.

In fact it does no such thing. The Left's disbelief in God does not free them from superstition -- rather, it frees the superstition to infect all other modes of their thought.

Rather than thinking in terms of the divine and magic in the area of theology and metaphysics -- which is really where thoughts about the divine and magic should be contained -- the left, being Bad at Secularism, instead permits superstition, myth, and magic to flood into all other compartments of their ship of the mind.

Rather than keeping religious thought confined to religions matters, as the openly religious do, the left, which is intensely religious but believes it is not, instead employs religious thought in all modes of thinking, particularly in politics (where The Government easily steps into the place of God as the Large, Abstract Power That Lords Above Us), but also in what they call "science."

You know, the science which personifies the Earth as a deity who seeks vengeance upon polluters and people who drive cars.

Jorroh

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
"Lois/LEB is a nurse practitioner lady"

Are you sure?
I always assumed LEB was a troll ring. Unfortunately they were just a little too dumb and couldn't really come up with anything other than long strings of fallacies, which got boring pretty quickly.
Norton

Social climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 06:24pm PT

how precious

rightwing ball cupping...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Nov 30, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
Then after the robbery he assaulted a cop in his car thru the window.

Then after that charged the cop who finally had to shoot him in self defense.

back to your mythical magical thinking,

time to pick another poster boy.
Jorroh

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
Was he anyones hero TGT?

He was certainly an example of the sort of summary execution of young black men that seems to be far more common than most of us ever realized.
philo

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 06:31pm PT

time to pick another poster boy.


OK how about the little black kid minding his own business playing in the local playground when the cop drove up and murdered him in cold blood before even getting out of his car? How does that fit your bigoted narrative?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 30, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Nov 30, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
^^^^ That is great. LMAO

EDIT: no contest Norton. You've already been blown out of the water jackass.
Norton

Social climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
Norton

Social climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 07:56pm PT




conservative action

have not heard of that one

been spending all my time at redstate.com
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 30, 2015 - 07:57pm PT
Just for YOU Crankstar, Philo AND Norton. I posted this on another stupidazz thread but it most assuredly needs to be posted here just for you looney lads.


Think about it.


[Click to View YouTube Video]
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 30, 2015 - 09:24pm PT
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 30, 2015 - 09:55pm PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 05:41am PT
Ragetta posted
I am still trying to be certain that I understand your position correctly. You want legislation which would bar all private citizens from owning any firearms? Is that a correct statement of your views?

No, I am rebutting your claim that there "is no legislative solution to this." There clearly is, we just have chosen to instead allow for tens of thousands of gun deaths/injuries instead. My point is that the idea that we are helpless to reduce gun violence (your statement) or that we do not have enough evidence (John's statement) are actually conscious decisions on our part, we just act like we are powerless to avoid taking responsibility for it. The American system is designed to have a lot of mass shootings, domestic terrorism and murder. It's not a bug, it's a feature.


John M posted
This was a very funny post by Karl baba which hit home.

I had not read that before. Karl hit a home run with that one! (though this practice of deleting all of someone's posts when they're banned is abhorrent)
philo

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 06:18am PT
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 1, 2015 - 06:28am PT
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 1, 2015 - 06:46am PT
Goes for you, too, Edward. You a Trumpkin, too? You're planning to vote for him? Sounds like it.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 07:15am PT
I don't think Al Qaeda is really a player in Iraq anymore, Ed. I think you have your memes wrong.

Trump is a huge d#@&%e and he's advocating some bad stuff but he is literally not Hitler.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:21am PT
Norton

Social climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:38am PT
is there a disconnect here?

"ISIS" IS "contained" in Iraq, where he said it was contained

stop lying, leave that to your Repub Presidential candidates


and read this

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/15/ben-rhodes/what-barack-obama-said-about-isis-being-contained/
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:41am PT
ISIS" IS "contained" in Iraq, where he said it was contained
-Norton

"ISIS IS "contained" in Iraq"

Last time I checked Raqqah was in Syria....

Not to mention where the heck Paris is....

LOL!!!!
Karen

Trad climber
Casper, Wyoming
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:41am PT
I have been out of town and have not had a chance to read the entire thread. Just want to make a comment. I was deeply disturbed by the Planned Parenthood shooting and I most certainly would consider it a domestic terrorist attack.
Rest in peace for those murdered.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:51am PT
The Mainstream Media won't call it what is;

Christian Right Wing Extremist Terrorism
They are anti Government, anti progress, and consider abortion to murder, so it's Ok to murder the murderers

and they all have stock piles of Guns

They have killed ~7 times more Americans that Islamic Extremists


Why does the GOP refuse to call it what it is?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:51am PT
Norton

Social climber

Dec 1, 2015 - 07:38am PT
is there a disconnect here?

"ISIS" IS "contained" in Iraq, where he said it was contained

stop lying, leave that to your Repub Presidential candidates


and read this

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/15/ben-rhodes/what-barack-obama-said-about-isis-being-contained/

AND THIS ONE...

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.

Dec 1, 2015 - 07:51am PT
The Mainstream Media won't call it what is;

Christian Right Wing Extremist Terrorism
They are anti Government, anti progress, and consider abortion to murder, so it's Ok to murder the murderers

and they all have stock piles of Guns

They have killed ~7 times more Americans that Islamic Extremists


Ah FRY, that would equate to over 21,000 people. You do have a viable reference for such a statement of course, right FRY???





Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:06am PT
Yes, the stupid people should do the research before they make themselves look like the idiots they prove to be with every post.


You Are More Than 7 Times As Likely To Be Killed By A Right-Wing Extremist Than By Muslim Terrorists

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/11/30/3725562/you-are-more-than-7-times-as-likely-to-be-killed-by-a-right-wing-extemist-than-by-muslim-terrorists/


Why did Bush allow 9/11 to happen on his watch?
it's almost if he wanted it to happen so he could impose his right wing extremist agenda = read PNAC
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:08am PT
Another attempt at a US politics megathread. The goal is civil (if contentious) political discussion. Most of your political cartoons are bad. Use your words.

Ur an idiot for not listening to CMAC.. get a life HIdesertDIPshit!

HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:08am PT
You Are More Than 7 Times As Likely To Be Killed By A Right-Wing Extremist Than By Muslim Terrorists
-Dr. F


Only if you don't count 9/11

LOL!!!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:10am PT
Bernie said that he equated the rise of ISIS with global warming.
I guess he's been going to the same crack house as Prince Charles.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:13am PT


I didn't realize that you Left Wing Radical Democrats, which of course started the group you refer to above and were in control of that org in it's murdering hey day between 1867-1870's, did so for...

Religious purposes.


Cus you all for the most part are, NON-CHRISTIAN, correct CRAIG FRY?

How about this fact CRAIG FRY!

The first Klan was founded in 1865 in Pulaski, Tennessee, by six former members of the Confederate army.[17] The name is probably derived from the Greek word kuklos (κύκλος) which means circle.[18]

In effect, the Klan was a military force serving the interests of the Democratic party, the planter class, and all those who desired restoration of white supremacy. Its purposes were political, but political in the broadest sense, for it sought to affect power relations, both public and private, throughout Southern society. It aimed to reverse the interlocking changes sweeping over the South during Reconstruction: to destroy the Republican party's infrastructure, undermine the Reconstruction state, reestablish control of the black labor force, and restore racial subordination in every aspect of Southern life.

Although there was little organizational structure above the local level, similar groups rose across the South and adopted the same name and methods.[19] Klan groups spread throughout the South as an insurgent movement during the Reconstruction era in the United States. As a secret vigilante group, the Klan targeted freedmen and their allies; it sought to restore white supremacy by threats and violence, including murder, against black and white Republicans. In 1870 and 1871, the federal government passed the Force Acts, which were used to prosecute Klan crimes.[20] Prosecution of Klan crimes and enforcement of the Force Acts suppressed Klan activity.

The first Klan had mixed results in terms of achieving its objectives. It seriously weakened the black political establishment through its use of assassinations and threats of violence; it drove some people out of politics. On the other hand, it caused a sharp backlash, with passage of federal laws that historian Eric Foner says were a success in terms of "restoring order, reinvigorating the morale of Southern Republicans, and enabling blacks to exercise their rights as citizens."[21] Historian George C. Rable argues that the Klan was a political failure and therefore was discarded by the Democratic leaders of the South. He says:

the Klan declined in strength in part because of internal weaknesses; its lack of central organization and the failure of its leaders to control criminal elements and sadists. More fundamentally, it declined because it failed to achieve its central objective – the overthrow of Republican state governments in the South.


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:15am PT
Bernie was right, but no one expects you guys to be able to do the critical thinking it takes to see it's 100% correct

so just give it up
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:16am PT
Well, while the Earth has been warming I've gotten older. Hmmmmm...
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:17am PT
They were Right Wing Radical Terrorists that were also right wing Democrats

There is zero evidence of a single left wing person in the Klu Klux Klan
every single on of them were Right Wing Christians

But don't let the facts bother your hate speech posting

That's the f-ing definition of a left wing liberal, inclusive to all races, minorities and sexual preferences

as opposed to a right winger which is the opposite
Hilter, Trump, KKK, etc are perfect examples of right wing racism.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:22am PT
Hey, I've had a brain storm! You don't suppose that the rise of ISIS has anything to do with
the fact that 500 million people, who believe that they'll get unlimited pussy in heaven if they
die stoopidly, also live in an essentially uninhabitable part of the world, do you? And, of course,
it was never abominably hot there before.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:23am PT
Yes, until the 30s the democrats were largely a southern, Conservative party, hostile to civil rights. By the 70 and 80s these same democrats jumped parties, largely as a result of the dems' new support of civil rights. The parties basically flipped, and now the republicans are the southern conservative party.

This is basic US history. I haven't seen any liberal/democrat here deny that the party had advocated abhorrent views for most of its existence.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:23am PT
Gee CRAIG FRY, sounds like the insistent politard bullshet rhetoric you keep posting here...


Klan violence worked to suppress black voting, and campaign seasons were deadly. More than 2,000 persons were killed, wounded and otherwise injured in Louisiana within a few weeks prior to the Presidential election of November 1868. Although St. Landry Parish had a registered Republican majority of 1,071, after the murders, no Republicans voted in the fall elections. White Democrats cast the full vote of the parish for President Grant's opponent. The KKK killed and wounded more than 200 black Republicans, hunting and chasing them through the woods. Thirteen captives were taken from jail and shot; a half-buried pile of 25 bodies was found in the woods. The KKK made people vote Democratic and gave them certificates of the fact.


Some things just NEVER change, do they CRAIG FRY!!!



Hey Reilly, it was the rising "heat" that created ISIS. Prior to 1880 or so, there were glaciers all over that region. Kept things ... COOL!


crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:25am PT
"Was it "I can't stand Donald Trump. He's a callous rube. He's unqualified to be POTUS"?

I stand corrected Edward. So, if he's the nominee you're voting for the Democrat, correct?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:26am PT
The farms all dried up, the masses left the rural areas and went to the cities, the despotic rulers cut off the social services to the new masses, the people rebelled to save their (current) lives.
A civil war insued.

And since the power structure was devastated by the Bush debacle, ISIS gained strength
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:27am PT
What's your final solution for those right wingers Craig?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 08:29am PT
Reilly posted
Bernie said that he equated the rise of ISIS with global warming.
I guess he's been going to the same crack house as Prince Charles.

I don't know enough of what he was basing this on to scoff or not but climate change and population growth is predicted to have significant effects on conflict as resources change and create instability.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/16/bernie-s/fact-checking-bernie-sanders-comments-climate-chan/
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:29am PT
And since the power structure was devastated by the Bush debacle, ISIS gained strength


BUT BUT BUT.....




Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:31am PT
Some things just NEVER change, do they CRAIG FRY!!!
Yes, you demonstrate your inability to think in every post.

didn't I ask you nicely to not use my name in your posts?
Why do you insist on being such an a-hole?
does it make you feel good to PISS people off??

Try being a normal nice person for once, instead of looking for every a-hole action possible
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:32am PT
HDDJ:
Hey, I've had a brain storm! You don't suppose that the rise of ISIS has anything to do with
the fact that 500 million people, who believe that they'll get unlimited pussy in heaven if they
die stoopidly, also live in an essentially uninhabitable part of the world, do you? And, of course,
it was never abominably hot there before.



The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:34am PT



That is your "Avatar" is it not, Craig Fry??
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:35am PT
So now more Personal attacks

are you just retarded??

Why?
Why do you have to show such juvenile behavior, we were trying to debate something here

You win, you are the King of Personal attacks
Now stop
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:37am PT
I suppose it's bad for now to address one per their ... Avatar. HUH, Craig Fry?





Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.

Dec 1, 2015 - 08:35am PT
So now more Personal attacks

are you just retarded??

Why?
Why do you have to show such juvenile behavior, we were trying to debate something here

You win, you are the King of Personal attacks
Now stop



Priceless. RFLMAO!


EDIT:

You of course C-FRY must be referring to Philo, Crankstar, Norton and a slew of others here. Correct?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 08:40am PT
Reilly posted
Hey, I've had a brain storm! You don't suppose that the rise of ISIS has anything to do with
the fact that 500 million people, who believe that they'll get unlimited pussy in heaven if they
die stoopidly, also live in an essentially uninhabitable part of the world, do you? And, of course,
it was never abominably hot there before.

Maybe next time you have a brainstorm consider that most of the expertise and information you require does not currently reside inside your brain? Read the link I posted. It explains what I was describing pretty well. It also rated Bernie's statement as "mostly false" which sounds about right to me.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:41am PT

Bernie said that he equated the rise of ISIS with global warming.
I guess he's been going to the same crack house as Prince Charles.

Bernie just had surgery for a hernia. His days are likely numbered.

I find it ironic that Obama, who has been flying all over the world of late and increasing his carbon footprint, is at a climate change convention.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:44am PT
HDDJ, you need to read some Thomas Malthus and break out a book on economic geography.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:45am PT
What's ironic about it?

You expect them to get things done by skype or email?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:45am PT
I find it ironic that Obama, who has been flying all over the world of late and increasing his carbon footprint, is at a climate change convention.

Let's NOT forget the other supposed save the world from CC fanatics from around the globe whose PVT Jet Planes line the Tarmac at.... Charles de Gaulle Airport.

Norton

Social climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:46am PT
*US Special Forces Commander Says Bush Created ISIS


The fact that Bush created ISIS isn’t all, either. President Bush also released the future leader of ISIS claiming that he was “harmless.” Mission accomplished,

That’s right, the former commander of U.S. Special Forces under President George W. Bush put the nail in the coffin once and for all about who is responsible for the rise of ISIS in Syria and Iraq, and guess what, conservatives? It’s NOT President Obama.

Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn is now retired, so he has no problem setting history straight. During an interview with German newspaper Der Spiegel, Flynn admitted that the Bush administration was “too dumb” to realize they had captured Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. So they released him because they didn’t deem him a threat. Now, the guy is the top commander of the terrorist group known as ISIS. Here is a bit of the transcript of that interview:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/12/01/former-u-s-special-forces-commander-confirms-bush-invasion-of-iraq-created-isis/
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:48am PT
Nice to see you boys are so hard at work this morning. Push on through the day.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 08:52am PT
Reilly posted
HDDJ, you need to read some Thomas Malthus

Reilly, you're so eager to have a response that you don't appear to even know what you're arguing about.


Norton- Aren't you being as facile about this as Reilly is? Isn't this a little more complicated than "President X created ISIL?" It seems to me that the American people elected both those presidents and we are even more eager than our politicians to make sure someone else is to blame.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:55am PT
In fact, climate change is directly related to the growth of terrorism,"
Bernie Sanders

No where did he say ISIS
so why are you saying he said GCC created ISIS

Isn't this just another smear campaign

Take something out of context, call him lying or stupid

What about denying GCC altogether?
Isn't that lie more important than someone flew somewhere to a meeting
What a pathetic double standard



climate change is directly related to the growth of terrorism, true
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:56am PT
Hey NORTON,


You mean this dude???


Report
Out of Uniform and Into the Political Fray

Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn retired and immediately began bashing the administration. Has he crossed a line?




Out of Uniform and Into the Political Fray

The witness at the June 10 House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing was tossing the equivalent of red meat to his Republican questioners, who were practically slavering in gratitude.

President Barack Obama’s plan to impose “snapback sanctions” should Iran violate a nuclear deal? “Wishful thinking.”

The awkwardness of having U.S. trainers and Iranian forces both in Iraq helping to counter a common enemy? “We have allowed this thing to get so out of kilter.”

The president’s June 8 remark that “we don’t yet have a complete strategy” for training Iraqi forces to combat the Islamic State? “I was stunned by his comments,” the witness said. “Stunned.”

But the wiry, sharp-featured man giving the representatives what they wanted and then some was no pundit from a right-leaning think tank, nor was he an alumnus of former President George W. Bush’s administration. No, the man in the gray suit sounding the alarm over the current administration’s approach to the Middle East was none other than Obama’s most recent director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, retired Army Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn.

Since taking off his uniform last August, Flynn, 56, has been in the vanguard of those criticizing the president’s policies in the Middle East, speaking out at venues ranging from congressional hearings and trade association banquets to appearances on Fox News, CNN, Sky News Arabia, and Japanese television, targeting the Iranian nuclear deal, the weakness of the U.S. response to the Islamic State, and the Obama administration’s refusal to call America’s enemies in the Middle East “Islamic militants.” Flynn is hardly the first retired senior officer to criticize a sitting president’s policies, but in the post-9/11 era, no one else has combined Flynn’s rank and high-profile position at retirement, and the speed — once out of uniform — with which he began lambasting the policies of the administration he had just been serving.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:56am PT
Yes, it is, and it's a lot more complicated than 'President X is a hypocrite about climate change because he flew to a meeting about it'.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:03am PT

Yes, it is, and it's a lot more complicated than 'President X is a hypocrite about climate change because he flew to a meeting about it'.

You're probably right.

But, if you add in all the vacation and golf travel it becomes abundantly clear...
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:04am PT

What's ironic about it?

You expect them to get things done by skype or email?

Yup.

Ever hear of a teleconference?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 09:06am PT
I have to say the whole "you drove a car to the environmental meeting so you're a hypocrite and can't be trusted" argument is painfully hollow. If a hippie who lived in a yurt and rode his bike everywhere preaches carbon reduction we ridicule him too. Last time I checked there were 15 Republican Candidates flying all over the country despite the fact that only 3 or 4 of them have any distant hope of actually being elected. Are you going to bring up their carbon emissions at their next campaign stop? Unlikely.


10b posted
Yup.

Ever hear of a teleconference?

Do you have any clue how much teleconferencing happened to prepare for this meeting? Do you think a President flies anywhere until 80-90% of the work is already hammered out?
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:08am PT
philo

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:11am PT
Craig the answer about your question regarding Le Chuff is that he is a duplicitous twit. He is sp terrified of what he can't control that he reacts like a child waking from a bad nightmare.
He is so desperate to not hear anything but the voices in his head that he attacks anything that doesn't conform to his narrow minded and bigoted view of the world. Just look at anything he responds to or posts. Clearly he is afraid of change and challenge and does what ever disruptive act he can to stiffle adult discussion. Like taking a shit! in the swimming pool so everyone else with leave him to wallow and bathe in his own fetid stink. He is the SuperTopo Donald, the tRUMP of the Taco. The more people call him on his lies and personal attacks the louder and ruder he gets. This is the down side of US military training, some get lost and never make it back.

Just wait though. Ignoring his own vile putrifications he will comaback and conflate and equate my calling him a twit with his own behavior. Then he will retell one of his bald faced whoppers thinking that people will believe im this time. Deny, deflect, delete.



Just like Hermit master, the MensaMan himself, just did the tbaggers rebarf a lie that has been shown false but convenient to spew. You can show them the records of how much less "vacation" time Obama has taken compared to his predecessors but it won't matter.
They fixate on the golf thing because it's been told to them so often.


10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:13am PT
Last time I checked there were 15 Republican Candidates flying all over the country despite the fact that only 3 or 4 of them have any distant hope of actually being elected. Are you going to bring up their carbon emissions at their next campaign stop? Unlikely.

What does that have to do with anything? I am not talking about the loser republican candidates, I am talking about obamas hypocrisy.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:15am PT
Last time I checked there were 15 Republican Candidates flying all over the country despite the fact that only 3 or 4 of them have any distant hope of actually being elected. Are you going to bring up their carbon emissions at their next campaign stop? Unlikely.

Which ones are talking about reducing carbon emissions to combat climate change?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 09:19am PT
10b posted
What does that have to do with anything? I am not talking about the loser republican candidates, I am talking about obamas hypocrisy.

So when a dozen people (who actively argue that carbon isn't an issue) fly all around the country for a year tilting at windmills it's fine but when one person who actually has the power to influence global change flies to Europe once it's hypocrisy?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:19am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.

Dec 1, 2015 - 08:35am PT
So now more Personal attacks

are you just retarded??

Why?
Why do you have to show such juvenile behavior, we were trying to debate something here

You win, you are the King of Personal attacks
Now stop



THEN.....



philo

climber

Dec 1, 2015 - 09:11am PT
Craig the answer about your question regarding Le Chuff is that he is a duplicitous twit. He is sp terrified of what he can't control that he reacts like a child waking from a bad nightmare.
He is so desperate to not hear anything but the voices in his head that he attacks anything that doesn't conform to his narrow minded and bigoted view of the world. Just look at anything he responds to or posts. Clearly he is afraid of change and challenge and does what ever disruptive act he can to stiffle adult discussion. Like taking a shit! in the swimming pool so everyone else with leave him to wallow and bathe in his own fetid stink. He is the SuperTopo Donald, the tRUMP of the Taco. The more people call him on his lies and personal attacks the louder and ruder he gets. This is the down side of US military training, some get lost and never make it back.

Just wait though. Ignoring his own vile putrifications he will comaback and conflate and equate my calling him a twit with his own behavior. Then he will retell one of his bald faced whoppers thinking that people will believe im this time. Deny, deflect, delete.


Right on cue.

Thanks again Philo for reaffirming my post...

You of course C-FRY must be referring to Philo, Crankstar, Norton and a slew of others here. Correct?


Of course you can always blame this behavior you speak of C-Fry by your compatriots, on ... Climate Change. And don't forget, BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSH!
philo

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:24am PT
You've got to be kidding. What hypocricy?

10b you have been so dissappointing lately.
Surely you are learned enough not to call out the head of state for attending a world conferrence as a waste of energy and a carbon footprint issue. He is the PRESIDENT of the UNITED STAES of NORTH AMERICA after all. If the conferrence were about peace negotiation would you expect the POTUS to tell the troops to stop shooting til he's back. And to brush off jet setting GOP canidates travels as outside the purview of your spurious comment/question is really hypocritical.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:40am PT
but when one person who actually has the power to influence global change


Wow you now think Obama is equal to GOD.

I spit coffee all over the monitor when I came across that little gem stone.

TGT .... that was some good posting upthread.

10b.... Phillo is calling you out. Remember its best to not stray to far from the group think of these lefties. They can become really viscous and hateful if YOU don't agree 100%

Peace and love to all.

carry on
philo

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:46am PT
Hey Lyin guyman how are you this fine morning?
Isn't calling people's points of view into question, particularly when when they are specious, spurious and supercilious, a standard part of debate? There was no personal attack was there? There is no gang of lefties cabaling around ST. Unlike the rightwing fanboiz, we all think for ourselves and come to our own conclusions. We each as individuals defend our positions precisely because we have done our own rigorous assessments of facts not in spite of them. Unlike the obvious circlejerk with the Koch problem.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:57am PT
These United Nations Climate Change Conferences are just so much posturing. Every year, there's a bunch hooplah about a global pact being made to combat global warming. And every year, we're told important groundwork was laid to help make a future deal possible. Every year.

Maybe, this year is "the year".

Maybe not.

philo

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 10:06am PT
But this year we don't have an oilman to scuttle the Kyoto Accords.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Dec 1, 2015 - 10:10am PT
hey who you calling viscous guyman, ya sumbitch !?


;-)
philo

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 10:18am PT
"one person who actually has the power to influence global change"


"Wow you now think Obama is equal to GOD."

What a childish response.
The President can certainly influence global change.
Or in the case of Bush resist it.


Would you have been happier if we had sent Joe the Plumber?
Who would you have suggested sending to Yalta?
carry on
philo

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 10:22am PT
The Oil Tar Sands.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 1, 2015 - 10:27am PT
Oilman?

I thought the Senate crushed it 95-0.

With gas back at 2004 prices, I doubt the masses are going to be too interested in costly alternatives.

Better to just keep the head in the sand, huh, Edward?

Nah. I'm just not buying the annual dog and pony show.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 10:55am PT
President Bush Signed the Iraq Withdrawal Order

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_U.S._troops_from_Iraq
Norton

Social climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 10:57am PT
President Bush Created ISIS

Former Military Chief: Iraq War Was A 'Failure' That Helped Create ISIS
"We strategically marched in the wrong direction."

Retired Lt. General Michael Flynn, the former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency who came up through intelligence positions in Iraq and Afghanistan, says that the George W. Bush administration's Iraq war was a tremendous blunder that helped to create the self-proclaimed Islamic State, or ISIS.

"It was a huge error," Flynn said about the Iraq war in a detailed interview with German newspaper Der Spiegel published Sunday.


JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 11:06am PT
HDDJ,

I appreciate your efforts and those of several others to keep this thread as a debate over ideas rather than an insult exchange. Unfortunately, it appears we failed. The signal-to-noise ratio is getting too high, even for me, to find it worthwhile to get the gold from the dross.

John
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 11:31am PT
Even if they reach an agreement in Paris, it's non binding.

have a good day philo. sorry to hear about your dog.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2015 - 11:57am PT
guyman posted
Wow you now think Obama is equal to GOD.

I spit coffee all over the monitor when I came across that little gem stone.

That's an interesting reaction. So your position is that the President of the United States, leader of the world's largest consumer and second largest polluter, does not have the power to influence global debate/action on this issue? Please, do go on.


John- I appreciate your efforts too, and I agree with Not-Lois!


10b posted
Even if they reach an agreement in Paris, it's non binding.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 1, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
That's an interesting reaction. So your position is that the President of the United States, leader of the world's largest consumer and second largest polluter, does not have the power to influence global debate/action on this issue? Please, do go on.


He has zero power to make a TREATY and APPROVE it.... oh yea he will sell out the USA and call it a TREATY but he must bring it before Congress and it must be approved. The Congress is starting to not do what this PREZ wishes, if you haven't been paying attention to the latest action in DC.

And this is a UN deal, again, the UN is so League of Nations now don't you think?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 03:30pm PT
There are a million things that the President can do to reduce green house emissions that do not involve a UN treaty.
So I guess your whole premise was wrong.

And who thinks Obama is God? no one
wrong again

Do you think that Congress should block the UN Treaty?

China is serious about doing something, and since they don't have a obstructive congress bought off by big Oil, they can do what's best for their country.

Doing something about reducing green house emissions is selling out the USA?
wrong again

he could create millions of green jobs tomorrow with the OK from Congress
why does the GOP want to keep people from getting green jobs?

philo

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 03:49pm PT
Starting?
Unbelievable!


The Congress is starting to not do what this PREZ wishes, if you haven't been paying attention to the latest action in DC.

Have you been in a coma for the last seven years or are you always in blind denial of reality?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 03:56pm PT
If only we could summon up another big krakatoa eruption, like the one in 1883 that caused 4 years without summer. THAT would fix this climate thingy.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 04:04pm PT
It actually is interesting you mention that. THere is one theory where when the bulk of the ice over Greenland melts causes a major shift in the ocean currents of the Atlantic, if I remember correct the deep currents in particular, causing the next period of glacial advance. But this is from so long ago (1980's), I forget who came up with this theory of glacial cycles.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 04:11pm PT
I think the bottom line is IF the glacial periods are (still) cyclical. Cycles tend to end.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 1, 2015 - 04:14pm PT
I read somewhere that the earth is headed toward another inevitable ice age (seems they are cyclical) and, if global warming did anything at all, it might minimally delay the onset.

We are in an ice age now. It started about the time that the continent of Antarctica moved into its current position, and when the north pole became nearly land-locked by the continents North America and Eurasia.

Ice Ages are characterized by alternating periods of glaciations and interglacial periods. The last glaciation ended about 20,000 years ago. So we are currently in an Ice Age but in an interglacial period of that Ice Age.

Historically, interglacial periods are about 5,000 to 10,000 years in length. So our current 20,000-year interglacial is an anomaly.

I noticed evidence of climate warming back in the 1990s when I was doing cave research, but at the time did not recognize the significance of what I was seeing. I suspect that out current interglacial will continue and the next glaciation will, in fact, be delayed even more by global warming.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 04:18pm PT
Ragetta
What do you think of Hillary Clinton?
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 04:20pm PT
This is really semantics I suspect, but the last glacial period ended approximately 12,000 years ago. This roughly correlates with the beginning of the Holocene period some 11,500 years ago.

edit; So the last 11,500 or so years has been an interglacial.


My point is if we (humans) have altered the system enough, we may be outside of the glacial cycle. Period. Purely conjecture of course.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
Exxon Knew about Climate Change Almost 40 Years Ago


A new investigation shows the oil company understood the science before it became a public issue and spent millions to promote misinformation
By Shannon Hall | October 26, 2015 |

The company’s knowledge of climate change dates back to July 1977, when its senior scientist James Black delivered a sobering message on the topic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/exxon-knew-about-climate-change-almost-40-years-ago/

Exxon was aware of climate change, as early as 1977, 11 years before it became a public issue, according to a recent investigation from InsideClimate News. This knowledge did not prevent the company (now ExxonMobil and the world’s largest oil and gas company) from spending decades refusing to publicly acknowledge climate change and even promoting climate misinformation—an approach many have likened to the lies spread by the tobacco industry regarding the health risks of smoking. Both industries were conscious that their products wouldn’t stay profitable once the world understood the risks, so much so that they used the same consultants to develop strategies on how to communicate with the public.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
I also think this country is not ready for ANY female to be elected president.

I couldn't disagree more. While Hillary Clinton isn't exactly my first choice, I would vote for her over Trump.

More importantly, I think there are any number of women capable of running a convincing campaign for their party's nomination. On the Republican side, we already have NiKki Haley, a governor who has demonstrated an ability both to govern and to lead. She would be an excellent candidate for the conservative cause. On the Democratic side, in addition to Hillary, someone like Patty Murray who could articulate the liberal position quite well.

Thus far, only Carly Fiorina and Hillary Clinton have chosen to run. In my opinion, Fiorina has not demonstrated the qualifications to be President, mainly because she has never (to my knowledge) served in elective office. Still, if any of a number of strong female candidates chose to run, I think you'd find the country more than ready to elect her.

John
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 1, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
I read it recently in an email...

Say no more.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 1, 2015 - 04:48pm PT
We need to all go have a smoke.....and chill.

This MEGATHREAD is spinning out of control....

maybe that was the original intention.

see youall later... must work, the boss man is calling.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
Ragetta
what does your avatar name reference?
just curious
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
Exxon Knew about Climate Change Almost 40 Years Ago

Thanks for putting that up link Craig. But believe it or not, they were not the only ones to know about this, at least in the 1980's. Studying Quaternary geology, this was one of the topics of interest. Quaternary geology is essentially study of glacial and interglacial periods. I wouldn't say human caused climate change was widely discussed, but a fair number of people had an inkling during this period. The interesting point to me is how it went from an interesting point of discussion to where it is today. Also, Exxon and San Diego State used to have a pretty close realtionship in the '80's.

edit; it's been decades since I really studied this stuff.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 1, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
It is an anagram of my name.

Age Tart?
Gate Rat?
Teat Rag?
A Target?
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 05:17pm PT
No, of "Lois."

She's having a bad spell day.
Jorroh

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 05:22pm PT
"Lois/LEB is a nurse practitioner lady"

I asked it earlier but no-one replied... was LEB really real?

I always assumed LEB was a troll ring... Unfortunately they were just a little too dumb and couldn't really come up with anything other than long strings of fallacies, which got boring pretty quickly.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
Really really real.

For reals!
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 1, 2015 - 05:29pm PT
was LEB really real?

She was/is for real.

She would post her opinions (which were long) and the entire forum would go batshit crazy.

They even got to the point where many on this forum would post pictures of her with penis' attached to her head.

Some of the most sickening and disgusting conduct from the very people who should have known better.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 1, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
I say Ragetta is probably not LEB
but I can still change my mind
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:27pm PT
Craig, you had the same denial last time Lois came back under a new avatar. What's the deal?

I'm telling you....trust me. It's Lois.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
It's possible that Ragetta is not Lois, but is someone else pretending to be Lois-pretending-not-to-be-Lois.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
Ah, yes...DMT returns!

I'd accept that...except since DMT = Lois & Lois = DMT, it doesn't really change anything, does it?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 05:23am PT
John posted
Thus far, only Carly Fiorina and Hillary Clinton have chosen to run. In my opinion, Fiorina has not demonstrated the qualifications to be President, mainly because she has never (to my knowledge) served in elective office.

I appreciated your otherwise sober evaluation of the presidential candidates but I have to ask, is her lack of experience in elected office really the only thing making you balk at considering Fiorina qualified?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 06:11am PT
Republican Primary Update:

Despite positive views of Carson's debate performance and efforts last month by MSM to paint a "Carson ascendant" story (which unsurprisingly turned into a "Carson is a liar" story), Trump remains well ahead of the rest of the pack. Rubio appears to be slowly trending up, but still polling well short of even Carson. Trump leads in both Iowa (by a small amount) and in New Hampshire (by double digits). Everyone agrees that polls taken long before the election are almost entirely for MSM entertainment purposes only, but it's now December and the first ballots will be cast in about 2 months.

So what gives? Are most Americans still waiting until after the holidays to make up their minds? Is the non-Trump vote going to coalesce behind Rubio or Bush once push comes to shove? Or is the narrative shifting and Trump is really worth considering as a serious primary contender?
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:28am PT
Trump, is articulating thoughts that simmer below the surface in many in the electorate. While I continue to believe, that a Trump Presidency would be a huge disaster for the US, the failure of the people in charge now, to simply shoot the messenger rather than addressing the issues, continues to bump up his numbers. One way or another, 2016, will be a watershed year and the existing political models, will need serious recalibration.
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:32am PT
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:34am PT
Trump, is articulating

Any sentence beginning this way has to be satirical.


Sorry, John, we do not need to address his issues. When this loathsome creep is finally gone we need to disinfect the country to get rid of the stench his presence has left.
philo

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:37am PT
The LEB canoe is off to the regatta with out a paddle.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 06:53am PT

Dec 1, 2015 - 09:34pm PT
It's possible that Ragetta is not Lois, but is someone else pretending to be Lois-pretending-not-to-be-Lois.

Let me guess: "Victor Victoria" is playing on Netflix?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 07:10am PT
John D posted
Trump, is articulating thoughts that simmer below the surface in many in the electorate. While I continue to believe, that a Trump Presidency would be a huge disaster for the US, the failure of the people in charge now, to simply shoot the messenger rather than addressing the issues, continues to bump up his numbers.

Do you think they aren't addressing the issues or that Trump is creating his own? For instance, was Obama's constitutional eligibility to become President not addressed properly or was it simply a straw man issue leveraged to gain political advantage? Net illegal immigration is actually in the negatives right now (more people are leaving than coming). America has the strongest military by any measurable amount but to hear Trump and Fiorina talk the military is crippled.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:17am PT
"So what gives? Are most Americans still waiting until after the holidays to make up their minds?"

Nah, it's pretty simple: America is still enjoying the TV show that is Trump. They'll get tired of the show at some point...when it becomes too repetitive...then look for a new show.

Or even more likely: in the primary process, voters date a lot of candidates before they choose seriously who they will marry. Like relationships, that's going to involve some unfortunate dating decisions that they later regret, then finding yourself well down the dating road, and making a tough (read: less-than-ideal) decision from the remaining prospects.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 07:19am PT
That's been the conventional wisdom for a while now but it's beginning to show signs of not playing out that way.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:30am PT
We'll see. Trump still hasn't jumped the shark- there's still plenty of time for that.

(Edit) Best-case scenario, though: he actually gets the nod. That'll make Hillary a shoo-in.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:31am PT
The real Lois would have gone off on Hillary.
She hated her with a passion.
That was the LEB test.

Our new poster seems to have his/her passion well contained

I had no denial before, maybe once when I wasn't around much,
I was the one that busted her twice before
and made her admit the truth


I never think what Trumps says, not even a simmer.
His fascist, racist, egomaniacal talk is revolting to me.
He's nothing more than a billionaire snake oil salesman.

If you really listen to him, all he really talks about is himself and how great he is, he's the smartest, he's got the best memory, he's the bigglyist (he used that word), the best negotiator, blah blah blah

He says nothing worth listening to.

My prediction, once again....
He will not be the GOP nominee.


Chris Christy may be the come back kid
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:07am PT
We need to all go have a smoke.....and chill.

This MEGATHREAD is spinning out of control....

maybe that was the original intention.

see youall later... must work, the boss man is calling.

have fun at work Guyman.. The pensioners (philo) is out to get you.. :)
philo

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:31am PT
Funny that the very guyman who slings slanderous lies of the most despicable kind now wants to everyone chill.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 08:39am PT
Philo- best thing is to just post content. Someone has to turn the cheek. Take the opportunity.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:40am PT
^^^
+1
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:42am PT
China is serious about doing something, and since they don't have a obstructive congress bought off by big Oil, they can do what's best for their country

Boy howdy.

India is serious, too.


More than 2,400 coal-fired power stations are under construction or being planned around the world.

New plants will emit 6.5 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide per year.

China is building 368 plants and planning another 803.

India is building 297 and planning 149.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/environment/article4629455.ece
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:45am PT
Dude. You're blowin' out the sidewalls.

Scale it down, buddy. That shit's annoying.
philo

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:52am PT
Apogee it's annoying on purpose. Typical wrongwingnut tactic.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:01am PT
Actually, I think Sketch just has a problem with uploading images.

Gotta work on that, buddy.

Edit: You can do it in any image editing software program. 600 pixel wide seems to be pretty workable.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:18am PT
Wow. Making more sh*t up and and saying Dem's are more likely to be violent criminals. Can you smell the desperation?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ted-cruz%e2%80%99s-four-pinocchio-claim-that-%e2%80%98the-overwhelming-majority-of-violent-criminals-are-democrats%e2%80%99/ar-AAfVijQ?li=BBnb7Kz
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:29am PT
Just use the F-ing Photo tool that ST gives you on the Reply box
Boy, that was hard
some people

I read somewhere that China is phasing out many coal plants
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:58am PT
Good morning.....

I read somewhere that China is phasing out many coal plants


CF, do you have a source?????????????????? I don't believe you at all... :>)


And Phillo.... I don't think I lied one bit.

I just wish to say this: Hillerry is a liar, and a bad Human Being ... to many sources to point at.

If you folks think she is "qualified".... you should think again.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:52am PT
You guys are pathetic

I just put the exact words "China is phasing out many coal plants" into the Google Machine

and it gives me an answer!!!
I guess not every one is smart as me
I must be the smartest Person in the World!

Beijing to Shut All Major Coal Power Plants to Cut Pollution
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-24/beijing-to-close-all-major-coal-power-plants-to-curb-pollution


They run a smear campaign about Hillary lying

They admit it was all political

And then we wonder why every Right Wingers think Hillary is Liar

But of course they don't care iota about the constant lying about everything that the GOP does, even the lies they make about Hillary
They think it's the truth, because their is no right wing smear campaign to tell them what to think

Pathetic dupes
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:59am PT
Significantly, China is replacing the four coal plants with larger plants fired by natural gas. I'm not convinced, however, that this article and the charts of proposed new plants contradict each other, because the charts don't purport to measure output or consumption of coal. I could build many small coal-fired plants and still reduce emissions if I replace the large ones with better options.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:00am PT
Ted Cruz is a professional liar:
The Planned Parenthood shooting was the work of a “transgendered leftist activist”

The Texas senator is trying and failing to spin the Planned Parenthood shootings as the work of the radical left

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/30/ted_cruz_is_a_professional_liar_the_planned_parenthood_shooting_was_the_work_of_a_transgendered_leftist_activist/


Every single one of the GOP candidates are professional liars
They are the best of the best when it comes to lying with a straight face

They know for a fact that Conservative policies do not create jobs or help the economy.

Just name a possible policy that they would agree to implement that would help anyone beside the rich, corporations or banksters.

In fact, I never even heard a conservative principle/policy that would create jobs, they have nothing for the middle class.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 11:04am PT
Did a post get deleted or something? People seem pretty upset about I'm not sure what.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:06am PT
best thing is to just post content. Someone has to turn the cheek. Take the opportunity.

eat ur own words dude..
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:12am PT
Don't think so...everything looks like the usual ad hominems to me...
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:14am PT
I appreciated your otherwise sober evaluation of the presidential candidates but I have to ask, is [Fiorina's] lack of experience in elected office really the only thing making you balk at considering Fiorina qualified?

Yes, but that's a little like asking is that fact that someone has never climbed outdoors but climbed, say, 5.13a in the gym, the only reason I wouldn't deem that person qualified to free solo Astroman. I probably would add that there's nothing like the Harding Slot, or any of many other pitches, moves or techniques, in the gym. The climber could be a natural at crack climbing, and the strength and endurance learned at the gym might propel him or her up the Enduro Corner, but saying that the climber never climbed outdoors is sufficient to justify a conclusion of a lack of qualification.

Running a publicly-traded, for-profit corporation differs so greatly from performance in elective office that I have no way of judging. The only info I have is that I don't consider her a particularly outstanding CEO. There's no evidence that satisfies me that H-P outperformed similar companies - and evidence that the opposite was true - during her tenure.

I mention her because she articulates a conservative position well. Her ability to execute, however, has yet to be proven.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:25am PT
" Her ability to execute, however, has yet to be proven."

Good thing she doesn't have 'community organizer' on her CV, or you Repubs would be in quite a fix, wouldn't you?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 11:30am PT
I agree with your assessment of the transfer-ability of corporate leadership to political leadership, I guess it just distresses me a bit that you consider her rhetoric a good representation of the conservative political viewpoint and that you would want her to execute on it.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 11:36am PT
Fiorina's not nuts. She strikes me as a very shrewd player. She's got very good instincts on how to appeal to her base and she's done a great job executing on it. Unfortunately, the things that are working for her require some very ugly rhetoric and a lot of pretty huge lies.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:45am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.

Dec 2, 2015 - 10:52am PT
You guys are pathetic

I just put the exact words "China is phasing out many coal plants" into the Google Machine

and it gives me an answer!!!
I guess not every one is smart as me
I must be the smartest Person in the World!

Beijing to Shut All Major Coal Power Plants to Cut Pollution
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-24/beijing-to-close-all-major-coal-power-plants-to-curb-pollution

So, they're closing 4 and building 1100.

Anyone think China's CO2 emissions will decline (or even plateau) over the next 20 years?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 11:47am PT
Well that's just it, she's appealing to a set of expectations that are beyond comprehension. For a group of people who spend so much time complaining about politicians who can't deliver on their promises we sure do expect an awful lot from them.

Edward- China is pretty eager to engage as a global player. I'm not sure how accurate that 1100 power plant number is, but they are building more solar panels than anyone. They've also been quicker to set CO2 goals than the US has. Everyone knows that a big part of making this all work is making CO2 emitting technologies expensive compared to the greener options. I'm not sure why people think China is so much less trustworthy than the US is. Their government openly states their intent and has the power to act on it. Our government is openly hostile to meeting CO2 emission goals.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:51am PT
**Leader Mitch McConnell continue to block the 9/11 heathcare bill in the Senate.
**

19 min ago - The 9/11 victims are in the hallway of Senator McConnell today, asking that he finally pass the 9/11 healthcare bill. Many have cancer and other life threating illnesses and need financial support. Why is McConnell against any kind of healthcare? ... (Its shown live on TV today,)


Why do some people vote Republican when their own Senate Leader is against
providing healthcare to the 9/11 responders?

Why do YOU vote Republican anyway, WHY?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 2, 2015 - 11:54am PT
One of Jon Stewart's best on this (or any) subject:

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/j5ujut/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-i-give-up---9-11-responders-bill
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
I think we may be looking at slightly different matters. The issue I addressed initially was whether the United States was "ready" to elect a woman President. If enough of the electorate approves of the candidate's position, I don't think the gender of the candidate will matter.

In a way it's no different from asking if we're ready to elect someone who is Jewish President. I think Bernie Sanders' positions are largely insane, but if enough disagree with me and agree with him, we're perfectly ready to elect him. His religous or ethnic affiliation isn't any real bar.

I don't see anyone saying that Fiorina has a disadvantage because she's a woman. The disadvantages they see are her experience (both what she's done and what she hasn't done) and her views, not her gender.

John
philo

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 01:22pm PT



. I think Bernie Sanders' positions are largely insane

Would you be willing to cite specific examples?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
Since you ask, Philo. I haven't much time to spend now, having squandered my lunch hour on the much more consequential issue of the status of the Cal football program's head coach.

I offer just one part of his platform, because I have better things to do with my time. This is taken directly from Sanders' campaign's web site:

Demanding that the wealthy and large corporations pay their fair share in taxes. As president, Sen. Sanders will stop corporations from shifting their profits and jobs overseas to avoid paying U.S. income taxes. He will create a progressive estate tax on the top 0.3 percent of Americans who inherit more than $3.5 million. He will also enact a tax on Wall Street speculators who caused millions of Americans to lose their jobs, homes, and life savings.

First of all, he won't enact anything. Only Congress can do that, the current administration's aggrandizement of power to the contrary notwithstanding. Of at least equal importance, what tax on "Wall Street Speculators" does he propose to enact? On what is it measured? Who pays? how much? Does he even understand the vital role speculators play in conserving resources?

What is a corporations "fair share" of taxes? Arnold Zellner proved conclusively in the American Economic Review (the most prestigious economic journal in at least the U.S., if not the world) that we cannot determine what individuals pay the corporate income tax, or any other corporate tax for that matter. How can one say a tax is "fair," or a share of the tax burden is fair, if we can't even know which individuals pay it?

Increasing the federal minimum wage from $7.25 to $15 an hour by 2020. In the year 2015, no one who works 40 hours a week should be living in poverty.

That will do wonders for teenage employment, I'm sure.

Putting at least 13 million Americans to work by investing $1 trillion over five years towards rebuilding our crumbling roads, bridges, railways, airports, public transit systems, ports, dams, wastewater plants, and other infrastructure needs.

I hope it works better than Obamas "shovel-ready" projects did.

Reversing trade policies like NAFTA, CAFTA, and PNTR with China that have driven down wages and caused the loss of millions of jobs. If corporate America wants us to buy their products they need to manufacture those products in this country, not in China or other low-wage countries.

See Smoot-Hawley Tariff, and its effect in causing and exascerbating the Great Depression.

Creating 1 million jobs for disadvantaged young Americans by investing $5.5 billion in a youth jobs program. Today, the youth unemployment rate is off the charts. We have got to end this tragedy by making sure teenagers and young adults have the jobs they need to move up the economic ladder.

I take it we need a youth jobs programs (how do we pay for it?) because none will be employed at his $15.00/hr. minimum wage.

Fighting for pay equity by signing the Paycheck Fairness Act into law. It is an outrage that women earn just 78 cents for every dollar a man earns.

Did he bother to see if the 78 cents per dollar adjusts for, say, differences in hours worked, for just one factor? (Hint: it doesn't). Just what we need for a well-functioning economy. The government telling us what everyone should be paid.

Making tuition free at public colleges and universities throughout America. Everyone in this country who studies hard should be able to go to college regardless of income.

And what trees does he propose to plant that will produce money as fruit to pay for this?

Expanding Social Security by lifting the cap on taxable income above $250,000. At a time when the senior poverty rate is going up, we have got to make sure that every American can retire with dignity and respect.

If we lift the cap, does that not also require us to lift the benefits, or is he converting Social Security (a /de facto// welfare system) into a true welfare system?

Guaranteeing healthcare as a right of citizenship by enacting a Medicare for all single-payer healthcare system. It’s time for the U.S. to join every major industrialized country on earth and provide universal healthcare to all.

How do we pay for the right to health care/ The way the rest of the world does, by limiting treatment? Is he aware of the difficulty that "every other major industrialized country" without an expanding population is experiencing paying for its welfare state?

Requiring employers to provide at least 12 weeks of paid family and medical leave; two weeks of paid vacation; and 7 days of paid sick days. Real family values are about making sure that parents have the time they need to bond with their babies and take care of their children and relatives when they get ill.

And we pay for this how?

Enacting a universal childcare and prekindergarten program. Every psychologist understands that the most formative years for a human being is from the ages 0-3. We have got to make sure every family in America has the opportunity to send their kids to a high quality childcare and pre-K program.

See above, plus will we end up with better adults if the state raises our kids? See, e.g. the Hitler Youth.

Making it easier for workers to join unions by fighting for the Employee Free Choice Act. One of the most significant reasons for the 40-year decline in the middle class is that the rights of workers to collectively bargain for better wages and benefits have been severely undermined.

Unions have declined whenever workers are free to opt out of them. It would appear that either He thinks he knows more than every worker, or, maybe, they know more than him. The only areas were unions have expanded is for government workers. And against whom, exactly, are those government employee unions protecting their members/ The rapacious taxpayers?

Breaking up huge financial institutions so that they are no longer too big to fail. Seven years ago, the taxpayers of this country bailed out Wall Street because they were too big to fail. Yet, 3 out of the 4 largest financial institutions are 80 percent bigger today than before we bailed them out. Sen. Sanders has introduced legislation to break these banks up. As president, he will fight to sign this legislation into law.

No, we bailed out Wall Street because they had good connections in Washington, and because many thought that the way back was to "re-flate" the real estate industry. This was because government meddling in the housing market had been a major reason for the housing bubble in the first place. While I agree that nothing in the private sector should be "too big to fail," I rather susupect that nothing will be without a lot of government intervention propping it up in the first place.

Most of his policy prescriptions have been tried and failed miserably. If trying something and expecting different results from the previous trial defines insanity, there you have it. More importantly, thinking that the economy is a zero-sum system, or else that money grow on trees or is created by pixies, is true economic insanity.

I have paying work to do, so take your time on the attack.


John
philo

climber
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
Wow good thing you didn't have much time.
Thanks for the response.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:16pm PT
will we end up with better adults if the state raises our kids? See, e.g. the Hitler Youth.

American Public schools produce Hitler Youth!!!

I disagree with almost every word of your Fear Laden manifesto
A complete bias of reality,

Most of his policy prescriptions have been tried and failed miserably.

WRONG
they were disabled by Conservatives

They worked great here from 1938-1980, they made us the wealthiest Country in the World
and still in a lot of other First World Countries



Why do the Republicans keep trying to do Supply Side Economics??
Why do they want to lower taxes on the rich when it has proved to be an adjunct failure every time?

Iraq was supposed to be a fresh country to try Friedman Economics again, how did it work out. They fired all the Gov. workers and the free market was supposed to come to the rescue.

Chile

Are they insane?, by John's standards, Yes, the whole GOP is Insane
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:18pm PT
Thats why there are so many typos. Now back to paying work.

Well, first I need to thank you, Philo, for giving me a needed distraction. I'm in the process of writing a response to demand letters detailing 40 years of financial transactions. Trying to make that read in a compelling fashion probably constitutes its own form of insanity.

John
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
Most of his policy prescriptions have been tried and failed miserably.

WRONG
they were disabled by Conservatives

They worked great here from 1938-1980, they made us the wealthiest Country in the World
and still in a lot of other First World Countries

Which policy prescriptions are you referring to?

Which ones worked great (up to 1980) and were then disabled by Conservatives?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
Hey CRAIG FRY..... WTF is up with this.


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 02:54pm PT
Supply Side Economics
Deregulation
Curbing Environmental Standards
No Campaign limitations

All tried before, all failed

all are based on one thing, greed

and don't get me started on the Libertarian movement
Just another scam devised by the rich and greedy

It's mostly composed of right wing extremist ideologues and disenfranchised Republicans.
There is no Libertarian Paradise, they are hell holes

So John
Is the GOP insane?

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
So Craig Fry avoids the fact and reality that the top ten cities in the US with the highest POVERTY RATES are and have been run by Democrats.

Figures.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2015 - 03:24pm PT
John posted
I don't see anyone saying that Fiorina has a disadvantage because she's a woman. The disadvantages they see are her experience (both what she's done and what she hasn't done) and her views, not her gender.

Fiorina has a disadvantage because she's a woman.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 2, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
Carly Fiorina’s Lies Will Lead To Her Downfall
http://radio.foxnews.com/2015/10/02/laguens-carly-fiorinas-lies-will-lead-to-her-downfall/

Even Fox news has turned against her

She is also a professional liar
She lies about everything, or as John says, communicates the conservative message

next to take a big fall because of his Compulsive lying; Ben Carson
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 2, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
Craig,

Which policy prescriptions are you referring to?

Which ones worked great (up to 1980) and were then disabled by Conservatives?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Dec 2, 2015 - 08:12pm PT


When you've got the fringe righties here all heated up you know you're telling the truth.

Hmmmmm, (scratching my head).... Then by that logic Crankstar, I must be telling the "gospel truth" as I get ALL you Lefty crankaloons far above and beyond the boiling temp on a regular basis.

Thanks for reaffirming that Crankstar!!!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 2, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
I remain in awe of Trump, and what he has been able to do, basically without spending any money.

He has truly sucked all the oxygen out of the GOP tent, which has largely killed Bush. He is too low-key to get a message out. Rubio can veer right, and scream with the best of them, so he is at least on the page. But the rest, NO ONE is talking about. I don't see this changing until Iowa has run it's course, and maybe not then.

Pretty amazing.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 2, 2015 - 10:03pm PT
Ken, both Trump and H. Clinton are getting enormous amounts of free publicity from the press. For at least the last three decades the press has stopped covering the presidential race in any depth. It only reports poll results and outrageous statements, usually out of context, of those it is trying to oppose.

Meanwhile the dumbing-down of American entertainment, including, but not limited to news reporting, continues. It affects even such once-iconic bastions of intellectual propriety as "Jeopardy," which last night had a category on celebrity divorces and tonight had one on reality TV shows, among other vacuous content.

We have the press we deserve, which gives us the candidates we deserve.

John
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:37am PT
Best reality series on tv.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 05:32am PT
Presidential candidates in general get free publicity, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Arguably, it should be the only kind of presidential publicity. I completely agree with the rest of your assessment of campaign coverage, John. Conservative media also favors the political stylings of Trump, Carson and Fiorina which is why they are doing so well with the ways they are running.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 3, 2015 - 05:42am PT
both Trump and H. Clinton are getting enormous amounts of free publicity from the press.

Awkward comparison, I think. Trump talks nonsense and Hillary talks policy.

We have the press we deserve, which gives us the candidates we deserve.
Lumping "the press" into one big basket is lazy, in my opinion. There is plenty of smart analysis and accurate reporting going on.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:20am PT
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:30am PT
crank posted
Wrong again. Lumping "the press" into one big basket is lazy. There is plenty of smart analysis and accurate reporting going on. Look deeper.

Take it easy, dude. I think his point is that the MSM is profit driven which means its looking for the most entertaining way to engage viewers (and up viewership). There is good stuff out there but in the last 15 years flagship media companies have shed much of their investigative reporters. John Stewart got a lot of content about the lack of tough questioning and the lack of follow up in political interviews. There is also a bias there because there are so many news outlets, politicians can have their pick. Trump told Fox to eat it and they literally crawled back to him begging for forgiveness. If a journalist is tough on a candidate, especially on live TV, then they simply won't go back on those programs and the journalist loses access and can no longer do their job effectively. There's a catch 22 there and the public is complicit in it.
philo

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:37am PT


The Bromance the Right wing conservatives have with Putin is disturbing.
Apparently a Black President who is at heart a Democrat with roots in community organizing is a greater threat to Amerikkka than A white man who is at heart a Communist with roots in the secret police.

I suggest our resident rightwingnutz wrap them selves much tighter in the Flag.
The Confederate flag that is.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:38am PT
Good one, Edward!
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:41am PT
I'm relaxed, HDDJ. I'm also perfectly comfortable with my ability to sift through various news sources to get to the heart of an issue. What is the "mainstream media", anyway? Fox like to takes shots at them when they are the most-watched cable news channel. How much more mainstream can you get? Is the PBS News Hour mainstream? I don't think so.

The point about the media being profit driven is taken. That's why Trump is where he is. He's entertaining. In a bad way.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:50am PT
We can gripe about Fox and MSNBC all day long, but the networks still dominate. From what I see, they're all about sensationalism.

Watch ABC World News, Inside Edition and Entertain Tonight in succession. All three will have the same stories. Those stories take up majority of each program.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 06:50am PT
I was only trying to urge you to take it down a notch in starting off your response with calling him wrong. It sounds like you probably agree with him to some extent. Exploring those areas of agreement/disagreement are a lot more interesting and real than just insisting that each other is wrong. We're all wrong.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 3, 2015 - 06:52am PT
I get your point and made an edit.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 07:00am PT
Woot! One post at a time, we make the Taco a better place.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:31am PT
JEleazarian wrote:
It affects even such once-iconic bastions of intellectual propriety as "Jeopardy," which last night...

Aha!!!! you do watch it!
I've always loved Jeopardy and the intellectual content of that show truly dwarfs today's poltical commentary.

So many of my leftwing friends get their points and views from shows like Comedy Central or Bill Maher.

It's all about the popular culture.

I personally like Bill Maher, but his religious rants can get downright reptilian. I'm not religious, but why ridicule and disrespect half of your audience?
The best moment ever on Bill Maher's show was several years ago when British intellectual Christopher Hitchens flipped off the infantile and predictable peanut gallery audience...twice.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 09:28am PT
Maher sometimes has some worthwhile insights that he states in a blunt manner. I can tolerate him as counterweight to some of the insanity that goes on in right wing media (and sometimes goes mainstream). His views on religion are nothing short of abhorrent.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 09:47am PT
dirtbag

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:58am PT
Well, it looks like the latest version of Lois has been booted, lol.

She/dmt will be back.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 09:59am PT
Dingus,
LMAO

Doesn't James Carville's wife call him "Serpent Head"?
He's a hit man, but I've always enjoyed Carvilles's wit...he's funny.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:09am PT
So many of my leftwing friends get their points and views from shows like Comedy Central or Bill Maher.


Yes, and they cite them to...

Next time I get it on with one of them I will quote Groucho Marx...


And just to toss this out their on the floor.

I listen to lots of Radio Shows, L & R .... I have listened to every Repub candidate speak at length with out interruption from some dip#ST& moderator. Sanders also.... I think its nice to hear them put 4 or 5 sentences together....

Except for Hillery.... they (the media) have only shown her doing EVENTS... you know reading off of the teleprompter. From what I have seen SHE only speaks in slogans and platitudes.

Anybody got a link to a Hillery interview??? I'll gladly read....
Norton

Social climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:13am PT
Anybody got a link to a Hillery interview??? I'll gladly read....

you could google "Hillary Clinton interviews" and then also hit "videos" for more
John M

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:20am PT
I suppose most would label me a liberal. I have mostly voted democrat.

I do not like Hillary Clinton. I have never liked her.

Yet if it comes down to Hillary versus Trump or Jeb Bush, I would vote for Hillary.

I very much hope that Bernie Sanders beats Hillary, even if I don['t agree with everything he says.

I believe that Bernie is a much more honorable person then HIllary, Trump, or Bush.

philo

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:30am PT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:49am PT
Philo, how effective do you think a vote to reduce mass shootings would be? I personally think it would be about as effective as a vote to reduce sin, or a vote to make crime more illegal.

I, for one, am tired of votes made for show. That includes both votes to repeal Obamacare, which will never withstand a veto during this administration, and "votes to reduce mass shootings." If we really wanted to reduce mass shootings, we'd treat them the way sports broadcasters learned to treat fans that came on the field during games -- they refused to show them on the broadcast. If you want to reduce (I doubt you can stop) mass shootings, don't publicize them so strikingly.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303309504579181702252120052

Instead, we publicize them over and over and over again to make political points for our sides, and because for over a century, "If it bleeds, it leads" has been the mantra of the news business. The pro-gun side says it shows why everyone should be armed. The anti-gun side says it shows why we need greater control of gun ownership. The predictable result is that we get more copycat mass shootings.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 10:53am PT
Lois got the boot again, huh? Not surprising, but damn funny.

So, Craig...now are you convinced?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 10:53am PT
John, I can understand being sick of the political rhetoric but that's not really an excuse to stop covering them. If we are going to continue doing nothing we should at least have to watch the fruits of our inaction. You're also being purposefully obtuse about the poorly worded cartoon. Obviously it's implying legislation to achieve that end, not a "Resolution to Reduce Gun Violence."

Why did someone report Lois? What was she doing that was harmful? I'm personally all for forgiving these folks. Fatty, Lois, DMT whoever else got booted more than a year or two ago. Excluding people permanently seems absurd.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 3, 2015 - 11:10am PT
HDDJ it isn't so much about covering them as how we cover them. We learn all about the perps. Think of something like the Oklahoma City Federal Building bombing -- a horrendous mass murder. Timothy McVeigh got one enormous amount of publicity. Even his last words from "Invictus" got covered ad nauseum.

It doesn't matter the weapon used. We end up learning all about the perpetrators, which puts them (admittedly, often posthumously) in the spotlight, which is what they seek. The article urges less coverage of the murderers themselves.

Unfortunately, that prescription doesn't fit the desires of those who want no crisis or disaster to go to waste. The "gun nuts" want to focus on the shooters to demonstrate that they were people who, often, should not have had access to firearms under current law. Thus, they claim, gun control is useless. The "anti-gun nuts" want to focus on the shooting - and every aspect thereof - to keep the desire to reduce them in the public mind. The media wants to keep people watching, listening and reading, and our corrupted minds remain fascinated, it seems, but the sorts of deviants that would commit such monstrous acts. Therefore, all have a motivation to keep the perps in the news.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 3, 2015 - 11:14am PT
There is no evidence that the new poster got booted because she was Lois

But it is weird.



I listen to both sides too

And once you look for the lies, you can see that the Whole GOP campaign is based on lies

Use wedge issues to dupe idiots
cut social services
start wars
bankrupt the country
give cronies tax breaks
have a smear campaign on all dissenting opinions
buy up the media and fill the dupe's heads with propaganda
Keep the populace at low wages fighting for jobs

You have to be an idiot to vote for any one of them, they're all corrupt to the gills

But these facts won't change anyone's minds, they will just repeat the BS about how they hate Obama and Hillary,
blame someone else, don't check the facts, the bought out media will tell you them, and who to hate.
philo

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 11:14am PT
A marble bust of Dick Cheney is being unveiled today in the Senate. Cheney will attend the ceremony, along with George W., for whom he served as vice president. Cheney’s likeness joins those of more than 40 other vice presidents, scattered inside and outside the Senate chamber.

Personally, I think there should be a separate Hall of Shame in the Capitol Building containing the busts of presidents and vice presidents, like Cheney, who have disgraced themselves and the nation. For those of you too young to remember, Dick Cheney was the brain behind George W. Bush’s otherwise brainless presidency – the man who engineered the Iraqi War, who fooled America into thinking Saddam Hussein was hiding weapons of mass destruction, and who arranged for and justified torture. If there were justice in the world, Dick Cheney would be tried and convicted as a war criminal. That he is being memorialized today with a marble bust in the Senate is an insult to America and to humanity.

What do you think?


JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 3, 2015 - 11:20am PT
give cronies tax breaks
have a smear campaign on all dissenting opinions
buy up the media and fill the dupe's heads with propaganda

That describes Hillary's campaign pretty well.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clintons-tax-credit-sweepstakes-1448928410

As for bankrupting the country, the pensions the Democrats granted to public employees have only begun to hit state and local budgets. Just wait a few years. Virtually all of government expenditures not used to cover debt service (which will become enormous when interest rates rise) will go to pay for those pensions.

John
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 11:23am PT
John posted
Unfortunately, that prescription doesn't fit the desires of those who want no crisis or disaster to go to waste. The "gun nuts" want to focus on the shooters to demonstrate that they were people who, often, should not have had access to firearms under current law. Thus, they claim, gun control is useless. The "anti-gun nuts" want to focus on the shooting - and every aspect thereof - to keep the desire to reduce them in the public mind. The media wants to keep people watching, listening and reading, and our corrupted minds remain fascinated, it seems, but the sorts of deviants that would commit such monstrous acts. Therefore, all have a motivation to keep the perps in the news.

John, you're falling into a bit of a false equivalency trap as well as the same kind of generalizations the mass media is guilty of. People who think we need tighter gun control don't want these events to go to waste because America has proven immune to any kind of progress on the issue without it. There's no incentive to popularize the perps by pro-gun control people either, because it's the tool were talking about, not as much the person. The idea of covering the perps less has been bandied about for a long time but I don't think thats a panacea.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2015 - 11:24am PT
Philo posted
What do you think?

I think people need to be reminded that they voted for him twice.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 3, 2015 - 11:29am PT
Give me a break John

Let's see a link to Hillary giving tax breaks to her cronies
a smear campaign against Who?
Owns what Main Stream Media?

you are 100% wrong

Why lie, or do you really believe the stuff you post



Fox and 100 more media sites are owned by who?
$18 trillion was racked by who? pensions?
wow, good deflection, you got me so worried

No, it was racked by Conservative policies and the pensions were robbed by conservative policies
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 3, 2015 - 11:33am PT
Did you click the link I provided, Craig?

I haven't even started with the crony capitalism involved in "green" energy.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 3, 2015 - 11:37am PT
so weak
total hit peace
should we look at the GOP cronies, like Halliburton
The NRA, Wallstreet, oil, coal, everything EXCEPT Green Energy

The Democratic candidates are conducting a lively fiscal bidding war. Bernie Sanders favors some $18 trillion in new spending over a decade, give or take a few hundred billion, and raising taxes on the middle class—in part at least—to pay for it. Hillary Clinton supports somewhat less new spending, but she also disguises a huge chunk of her income transfers through the tax code.
WSJ=Fox News

We give Billions away to them because of conservatives.

Thank God the Dems are helping out Green Energy

the GOP is trying to kill Green Energy so they can keep the billions in profits for their cronies
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
JEleazarian wrote:
Virtually all of government expenditures not used to cover debt service (which will become enormous when interest rates rise) will go to pay for those pensions.


Big voting constituency there...Democrats are whistling past the graveyard on this one.
Jorroh

climber
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
"John, you're falling into a bit of a false equivalency trap"

You just noticed?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 3, 2015 - 01:47pm PT
John!!
I say something about the GOP and you predictably shift the blame to Hillary and the Dems

Can you ever be objective?

answer me this one question
What is a conservative policy that creates jobs and strengthens the economy?

explain your talking points, how it works, if it requires magic dust, we will call it out.
.
The Dems have no working policies now because the GOP has obstructed them, so we are waiting for the GOP to do something, like they said they would.
Where are the Jobs?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 3, 2015 - 08:16pm PT
Give the guy a break. He's trying to read long, foreign words that he's never heard before, that someone else wrote for him.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 07:12am PT
John posted
I haven't even started with the crony capitalism involved in "green" energy.

In America we call that "democracy." Let me know when it hits 1% of the cash doled out to fossil fuel companies and then I'll read up on it.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:40am PT

Marco Rubio’s Mistress is Coming Forward … Things Are About to Get UGLY

http://thepatriotnation.net/marco-rubios-mistress-is-coming-forward-things-are-about-to-get-ugly/

The thing about running for president is that all of those pesky skeletons in your closet get exposed for the world to see.

For Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL), his biggest skeleton apparently has a nice pair of gams and an irresistible sex appeal.

According to one South Carolina insider, Rubio had an affair with a Washington, D.C. lobbyist and her identity is about to be revealed to the world.

Apparently, the woman was identified by researchers who were delving into Rubio’s disastrous financial past.

Her identity is reportedly being leaked to “multiple mainstream media outlets” this week.



Will this doom Rubio, probably not, he will say he asked for God's forgiveness and the dupes will be OK with that,
then he'll go back to his normal compulsive lying and no one will care until he gets caught again



My prediction. Chris Christy will come out of the shadows
He's the only Mainstream GOP left that has any broad appeal.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 08:43am PT
I don't think anyone will care.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:47am PT
It's not his fault. Had Hillary not used a private email server and lied about Benghazi, he wouldn't have cheated.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 4, 2015 - 08:51am PT
I guess there is no Conservative Job's plan
Nor any plan to strengthen the economy

Nor is there any plan to control health care costs
to help the middle class
to feed hungry American white children
to enforce criminal actions on employers that employ illegal aliens

But that makes sense;
The Conservatives were the ones that destroyed our economy through deregulation
They shipped the jobs oversees
they are in bed with the big insurance companies
They have no empathy for starving children, or empathy for anyone except their small tribe
they want cheap labor
They hate green energy
they hate considering the environmental factors
They don't care the future, exploit now, dump the problems on the future
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:00am PT
John, you're falling into a bit of a false equivalency trap as well as the same kind of generalizations the mass media is guilty of. People who think we need tighter gun control don't want these events to go to waste because America has proven immune to any kind of progress on the issue without it.

I think (or at least hope) you're missing my point. I'm not saying that every reason for keeping mass shootings in the forefront has equal validity. I was simply explaining why it will prove unlikely that the media will change its coverage of them, viz. that both sides of the debate have incentives to keep mass shootings in the spotlight. They may emphasize different aspects or reasons, but the result is the same. They remain front and center, and the killers get the attention they seek.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:06am PT
The more mass shooting are sensationalized
The more gun sales

More guns have been sold in the last 2 weeks than ever before

Hysteria, fear, paranoia, doom, and all the rest of the base reptilian brain emotions..
Gun nuts feed on it.

do the killers really seek attention??
I don't think so, they do it out of anger and hate
an emotional overload of anger to the point that they feel they must kill and screw the consequences

This is all a media caused situation, it sells like nothing else
dirtbag

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:38am PT
Anyway, that source reporting Rubio's affair is pretty lame. One article addresses a singer's "nip slip" on live tv; another addresses a sexy weatherwoman's wardrobe malfunction. Not exactly the NY Times.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:58am PT
I hope it's not true about Mr. Rubio either

for heaven's sake, his party has suffered enough at their own hands lately

they just have to catch a break

why just this week Senate Majority Leader McConnell is refusing to allow a vote on
extending healthcare for the 9/11 First Responders, even knowing that there are enough vote vote for it to pass in the Senate

because doing so would be fiscally irresponsible, or something

why do some people vote Republican again?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 4, 2015 - 09:59am PT
John!!
I say something about the GOP and you predictably shift the blame to Hillary and the Dems

Can you ever be objective?

answer me this one question
What is a conservative policy that creates jobs and strengthens the economy?

Craig, please don't interpret a delay in responding as a lack of a reasoned response. Conservatives have a tendency to work. In my case, I also have a rehearsal for a chamber chorale in which I sing that ends at 9:00 p.m. on Thursdays, and a meeting that begins at 5:00 a.m. on Fridays.

Conservative policies that create jobs and strengthen the economy have their basis on a fact that Hillary Clinton apparently denies: businesses employ people and thereby create jobs. HC claims businesses do not create jobs, NBC creating one for Chelsea to the contrary notwithstanding. (A cheap shot, I know, but I couldn't imagine any of the Democrats on this board not beating to death stupid things Republican politicians say, so fair's fair. But see, Democrats who say "that's a false equivalence!"

Conservative policy therefore prescribes governmental action that allows the private sector to function in a way most likely to optimize job creation. These include, but are not limited to:

1. Stable prices. This means the government should not pursue policies such as rapid changes in the money supply. Instead, the money supply should expand as the economy expands. Fiscal policy is a much more effective tool for dealing with short-term shifts.

2. Predictable laws enforced with consistency. The more the government acts like a two-bit dictatorship, the less desirable that country becomes as a target for investment. This means you don't make a KXL Pipeline applicant jump through a million hoops and then kill it just because your megabuck contributors paid you to do so. It also means you don't change multi-decade precedents in labor or securities law just because your megabuck contributors paid you to do so.

3. Intelligent taxation laws. This means that government does not impose one of the highest corporate tax rates in the industrial world, and then tax on top of that any corporate earnings abroad when they are repatriated. You also aren't surprised that if you have taxes described in the previous paragraph, those foreign earnings don't get repatriated.

4. Encouragement of the free movement of goods and services. This means you don't impose tariffs on foreign goods just because your megabuck contributors paid you to do so. You don't impose regulations or enact laws that penalize the movement of goods and people just because your megabuck contributors paid you to do so. This means you have policies that allow foreign nationals to work in the United States without undue interference, despite opposition by your megabuck contributors who think they paid you to keep the foreign nationals out. The only intelligent interference with the free flow of goods and services would be in externalities such as pollution or national security.

5. Understanding that business is a friend of jobs and growth, not an enemy.

This is only a partial list, but it illustrates the major difference between conservative policies and those which Craig advocates, namely more regulation, higher taxes and less freedom. When conservative policies are in effect, the economy grows. When the government takes over, as it has during the current administration, it stagnates, except for those in power.

The current Democratic party gets most of its contributions from the following:

1. Government employee unions. They believe they have bought and paid for a party that will seek to maximize the employment of unionized government workers;

2. Plaintiff's attorneys. They believe they have bought and paid for a party that will seek to maximize the recovery for plaintiffs generally, and the employment of lawyers generally;

3. "Green" businesses. They believe they have bought and paid for a party that will seek to force people to buy "green" products they would not otherwise purchase;

4. Businesses afraid of competition. They believe they have bought and paid for a party that will seek to enact large barriers to entry in their markets; and

5. Wealthy individuals who are happy with their lifestyles. They think they have bought and paid for a party that will make it difficult to change anything (called by them, environmental protection) and also make it difficult for others to join their ranks.

Understanding this enables one to understand the shortcomings of the Democrats in economic policy. The Democrats tend to be economic reactionaries. Their policies reflect a terror of change, and a terror of allowing people to choose for themselves. Not surprisingly, the economy does better when people are free to choose what they want to do and what they want to buy, because such freedom tends to make for a much better match of resources to desires than one imposed by a plethora of "leeches" (to use Gary's word) whose only function is to prevent people from getting what they want.

Ok, I'm being too harsh. A good economy requires a good legal system, which requires intelligent regulation and laws. I believe that the vast increase in costly regulation, the arbitrary and capricious nature of the regulators, and the tendency to make economic decisions based on the identity of the parties, rather than the economic value involved, all during this administration's tenure caused the dismally weak recovery the U.S. has experienced.

The rapid recovery under Reagan shows what can happen with intelligent policies. The anemia the economy exhibited during most of the Obama administration shows what happens with stupid policies. If the massive increase in domestic hydrocarbon extraction -- which occurred despite tremendous obstacles placed by Democrats -- had not taken place, we probably would be in even worse shape.

Craig, your argument against deregulation assumes a free lunch -- that the regulators will have the knowledge that will enable them to make intelligent regulations. Let's see how that worked in the housing bubble. While those adhering to your argument blame the (bipartisan) repeal of Glass-Steagall, they fail to show a causal connection. More importantly, they ignore what the bureaucrats running federal housing policy did during the time of the bubble. If those regulators saw a bubble, and saw the consequences, you sure can't tell by their actions. The Wall Street Journal, among other conservative voices, was shouting about the danger of Fannie and Freddie, but both the regulators and congress, particularly Barney Frank and Charles Dodd, resisted calls for reform. That makes the irony that the bill that allegedly fixes the problem, whose regulations continue to multiply, came from those same two individuals.

OK. That's enough for now. I have work to do, and see diminishing marginal utility in repeating our discussions. I will let others decide which, if either, of us is objective.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:05am PT
Neither of you is objective.

That's what I suspected, which is why I worded my comments the way I did.

Back to work.

John
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:07am PT
The rapid recovery under Reagan shows what can happen with intelligent policies.
Yes of huge Government increases in spending and employing people was a boast to the economy

And which policies of Obama's aren't working?
The austerity imposed by the GOP and is which NOT a Obama policy

Thanks for the effort John, but it's mostly just partisan spin
blame this, shift blame away from that
some of it is just plain wrong

You add a lot of magic dust to your description of how things work, and that has been tried over and over, and has never worked (insane)

We had practically 35 years of Reaganomics, and this is predictably the outcome of it all
No Jobs, and a weakened economy
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:44am PT
"Conservatives have a tendency to work."

Cheap shot!
Gary

Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:47am PT
The rapid recovery under Reagan shows what can happen with intelligent policies.

I remember the Reagan recovery. That is, if a recovery is picking your self up after having your ass thrown out on the street because the plant you worked in was moving to Mexico and cashing in on a tax break for doing so.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:51am PT
The rapid recovery under Reagan shows what can happen with intelligent policies.


oh, you must mean the RECESSION and doubling of the national debt under Reagan?

skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:51am PT
Sounds like this thread needs bacon. Yup. Machine gun bacon.

Back to work. Guess I'm more republican than I thought :)
John M

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:55am PT
Businesses create Jobs????

Nonsense. Buyers create a market which businesses then fill, which creates jobs. Without buyers, you have no market, and hence no businesses.

As for our countries recovery under Reagan. You need to look deeper. Supply side economics is the economics of greed. Our countries economy has devolved to become greed based, so its no wonder that it recovered well under Reagans policies.

This is not to condone Obama, just simply to point out the fallacy of supply side economics.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:57am PT
John, Thank you.

well said.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:58am PT
"This is not to condone Obama, just simply to point out the fallacy of supply side economics. "


Sorry, that will be unacceptable to the Right. Anything less than a tender Reagan ballcupping is consider Obamalove.
John M

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:04am PT
The thing that I think that needs to be discussed is what exactly is the core of the dissatisfaction this country is currently undergoing. The dissatisfaction that Trump is tapping into. How much is real, and how much is manufactured dissatisfaction.

Such as.. I believe that it is real that we have too many poorly thought out regulations which are open to abuse. Example. Overly complicated tax code. I don't head towards oversimplification, such as a flat tax, but I do see a need to rewrite the tax code.

Also the overextension of powers of the IRS. Where one is considered guilty until one has proven themselves innocent.

I also see the broadening of the gap between wealthy and everyone else as a problem.

What other problems or issues are leading to this overall dissatisfaction?
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:23am PT
+1 john M

What are the voters begging for?

They thought change was going to work..

Now it looks like they want more COMPETENCY
Norton

Social climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:27am PT
Interesting, Pyro

is that why the polls are saying another Democrat, Hillary, is highly likely to be Pres?

cause they want less change and more "competency"?

in fact some polls are saying Bernie Sanders beat any Republican heads up and he
is far behind Hillary in the Democratic polling

unless there is something else you are basing your "opinion" on?
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 11:29am PT
The rapid recovery under Reagan shows what can happen with intelligent policies.

He had a cooperative, Democratic congress the whole time for starters. Secondly, can we please stop pretending that Presidents are at the driver's wheel of the economy? The only people who seem to believe this are journalists and politicians.

Lastly,

When President Obama moved into the Oval Office, the nation was not gripped in the throes of inflation. As a result, it was not a situation where he could subject the nation to a year or two of pain that comes from the Fed quickly raising interest rates only to see the inevitable economic boom that follows when those interest rates plummet downwards. Indeed, what we experienced was quite the opposite as the Fed lowered rates to entice banks to loan money, with an eye always on the frightening prospect of deflation.

In reality, there is little about the economic issues President Reagan inherited that is similar to what President Obama faced—and that is why the comparison between the two is one of apples and oranges.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2014/09/18/the-obama-economy-vs-the-reagan-economy-its-literally-no-contest/


pyro posted
Now it looks like they want more COMPETENCY

Agreed. Hillary, Jeb and Kasich are the only ones up there who can claim to be able to have the experience to accomplish this. Unfortunately, the 2 Republicans are getting whomped because competency is exactly the opposite of what the Republican base is clamoring for.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:44am PT
Polls show Rubio, Cruz, Carson, Trump and Bush beating Hillary.

Love those polls.

10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:52am PT
The thing that I think that needs to be discussed is what exactly is the core of the dissatisfaction this country is currently undergoing. The dissatisfaction that Trump is tapping into. How much is real, and how much is manufactured dissatisfaction.
1) people are tired of political correctness
2) people are tired of entitlement programs

Such as.. I believe that it is real that we have too many poorly thought out regulations which are open to abuse. Example. Overly complicated tax code. I don't head towards oversimplification, such as a flat tax, but I do see a need to rewrite the tax code.

I agree that a flat tax won't work, but a national sales tax might.


I also see the broadening of the gap between wealthy and everyone else as a problem.

I don't see this as the big issue that the media portends
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 11:58am PT
10b posted
1) people are tired of being able to drop N-bombs whenever they want...er...I mean political correctness


Fixed that for you. It's hard to find people more politically correct than the current Republican base. Don't call Benghazi "terrorism" before you have all the facts? Not politically correct. Don't call undocumented immigrants "illegals?" Not politically correct. Suggest that we take climate change seriously because the evidence supports it? Not politically correct. Dare to used a technical economic term like "redistribution?" Two years of political correct backlash.

Republican candidates walk the most absurdly tight rope and if they slip up once and dare to insinuate that the most far right idea being put forward isn't 100% perfect, they get politically crucified. They are completely obsessed with it.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Dec 4, 2015 - 12:01pm PT
Polls show Rubio, Cruz, Carson, Trump and Bush beating Hillary.
That's utterly frightening
But then again, "President Hillary" is only slightly less terrifying.
John M

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
I also see the broadening of the gap between wealthy and everyone else as a problem.

I don't see this as the big issue that the media portends

I disagree, because of the weakening of the middle class.
philo

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 12:10pm PT
EdT what a stupid Poll-ish Joke.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
Polls show Rubio, Cruz, Carson, Trump and Bush beating Hillary.

I think you mean there ARE polls that show them beating Hillary.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/president/

General Election: Trump vs. Clinton Quinnipiac Clinton 47, Trump 41 Clinton +6
General Election: Cruz vs. Clinton Quinnipiac Clinton 47, Cruz 42 Clinton +5
General Election: Rubio vs. Clinton Quinnipiac Rubio 44, Clinton 45 Clinton +1
General Election: Carson vs. Clinton Quinnipiac Carson 43, Clinton 46 Clinton +3
General Election: Trump vs. Sanders Quinnipiac Sanders 49, Trump 41 Sanders +8
General Election: Cruz vs. Sanders Quinnipiac Sanders 49, Cruz 39 Sanders +10
General Election: Rubio vs. Sanders Quinnipiac Sanders 44, Rubio 43 Sanders +1
General Election: Carson vs. Sanders Quinnipiac Carson 41, Sanders 47 Sanders +6
General Election: Trump vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 41, Trump 46 Trump +5
General Election: Carson vs. Clinton FOX News Carson 47, Clinton 42 Carson +5
General Election: Rubio vs. Clinton FOX News Rubio 50, Clinton 42 Rubio +8
General Election: Bush vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 39, Bush 45 Bush +6
General Election: Cruz vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 41, Cruz 45 Cruz +4
General Election: Fiorina vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 42, Fiorina 42 Tie
General Election: Christie vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 43, Christie 46 Christie +3
General Election: Trump vs. Sanders FOX News Sanders 41, Trump 46 Trump +5
General Election: Trump vs. Clinton PPP (D) Clinton 45, Trump 44 Clinton +1
General Election: Carson vs. Clinton PPP (D) Carson 45, Clinton 46 Clinton +1
General Election: Rubio vs. Clinton PPP (D) Rubio 45, Clinton 43 Rubio +2
General Election: Bush vs. Clinton PPP (D) Clinton 43, Bush 41 Clinton +2
General Election: Cruz vs. Clinton PPP (D) Clinton 46, Cruz 44 Clinton +2
New Hampshire: Trump vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 47, Trump 40 Clinton +7
New Hampshire: Rubio vs. Clinton FOX News Rubio 47, Clinton 40 Rubio +7
New Hampshire: Carson vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 43, Carson 45 Carson +2
New Hampshire: Bush vs. Clinton FOX News Bush 45, Clinton 42 Bush +3
New Hampshire: Cruz vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 44, Cruz 41 Clinton +3
New Hampshire: Kasich vs. Clinton FOX News Kasich 43, Clinton 40 Kasich +3
New Hampshire: Fiorina vs. Clinton FOX News Fiorina 43, Clinton 43 Tie
New Hampshire: Christie vs. Clinton FOX News Clinton 44, Christie 43 Clinton +1
Virginia: Trump vs. Clinton Roanoke College Clinton 50, Trump 36 Clinton +14
Virginia: Carson vs. Clinton Roanoke College Carson 44, Clinton 44 Tie
Virginia: Rubio vs. Clinton Roanoke College Clinton 45, Rubio 41 Clinton +4
Virginia: Cruz vs. Clinton Roanoke College Clinton 47, Cruz 39 Clinton +8
Virginia: Bush vs. Clinton Roanoke College Clinton 46, Bush 39 Clinton +7
General Election: Trump vs. Sanders PPP (D) Sanders 41, Trump 44 Trump +3
General Election: Carson vs. Sanders PPP (D) Carson 46, Sanders 39 Carson +7
General Election: Rubio vs. Sanders PPP (D) Sanders 38, Rubio 44 Rubio +6
General Election: Bush vs. Sanders PPP (D) Sanders 39, Bush 42 Bush +3
General Election: Cruz vs. Sanders PPP (D) Sanders 39, Cruz 44 Cruz +5

philo

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2015/12/3/1411482/-Former-GOP-lawmaker-says-Republicans-are-not-rational-and-have-a-12-year-old-s-kind-of-thinking
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Dec 4, 2015 - 04:33pm PT
I hate the "Free Lunch" analogy of John's

anything that sounds like a free lunch is automatically deemed bad and unsustainable

He has it 100% backwards, that's what the Government does, it gives out free lunches
It promotes the health of the society as a whole by providing education, grants, scholarships, loans etc.
We were a great Country because we invested in our society, infrastructure and people

But instead, we invest in the military now.


that the regulators will have the knowledge that will enable them to make intelligent regulations.
Crazy talk
Regulations came about from the same reason every time, they were imposed because of a prior situation that someone was taking advantage of.
No regulation is just made up for no reason, the reason for the regulation was if they didn't have it all hell would break loose.



AND
Businesses WANT regulations, they want to be protected from monopolies and other criminal intent.

They want to know what the rules are, and abide by them
Your free for all markets scare the hell out business because they don't know what's legal and what's not.
And we have seen what happens when the regulations are cut, the vultures come out and take advantage of them.

Deregulation is like having a football game without rules, anything goes, no one can predict what will happen next, screw the lines, drop the ball, go for the balls, ignore the clock, the exact opposite of the Stability you say is good

Deregulation is promoted for one reason, greed
It does not create jobs

Free Lunches Create Jobs
It's all about what the Gov. invests in, people or the military industrial complex and oil which ends up in the pockets of the already rich
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2015 - 04:42pm PT
Here's a thing...


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/23/catholic-hospital-argues-_n_2534383.html

Catholic Hospital Argues Fetuses Are Not People In Malpractice Suit

...but when it came to mounting a defense in the Stodghill case, Catholic Health’s lawyers effectively turned the Church directives on their head. Catholic organizations have for decades fought to change federal and state laws that fail to protect “unborn persons,” and Catholic Health’s lawyers in this case had the chance to set precedent bolstering anti-abortion legal arguments. Instead, they are arguing state law protects doctors from liability concerning unborn fetuses on grounds that those fetuses are not persons with legal rights.

As Jason Langley, an attorney with Denver-based Kennedy Childs, argued in one of the briefs he filed for the defense, the court “should not overturn the long-standing rule in Colorado that the term ‘person,’ as is used in the Wrongful Death Act, encompasses only individuals born alive. Colorado state courts define ‘person’ under the Act to include only those born alive. Therefore Plaintiffs cannot maintain wrongful death claims based on two unborn fetuses.”
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Dec 4, 2015 - 10:30pm PT
I worked up a bro science spreadsheet on the posters to this thread at a post count of 403 and classified each post into one of 8 categories: Drony, Angry, Preachy, Snarky, Insane(y), Boss(y), Chart(y) and Meme(y). The classification was subjective and made after reading at least 10% of each post or looking at the meme or chart for a half second.

Boss(y) is the best, Snarky is good, Chart(y) and Meme(y) is that I take your point or reference as valid, Drony is like white noise, Preachy is like spare me, Angry is angry and Insane(y) is crazy talk. 43 posters are on this thread as it stands now.
The top 11 posters on this thread are:

Philo: 54 total: Drony=18; Angry=18; Preachy=3; Snarky=2; Insane=7; Meme=7
HighDesertDJ: 51 total: Drony=31; Angry=4; Preachy=12; Snarky=2; Bossy=1 Chart=2
Craig Fry: 38 total: Drony=12; Angry=24; Preachy=1; Meme=1
The Chief: 33 total: Drony=5; Preachy=2; Snarky=2; Boss=10 (what can I say he is great at tossing flies and his memes are solid); Chart=9; and Meme=9
Apogee: 21 total: Drony=19; Preachy=1; Snarky=1
Jeleazarian: 19 total: Drony= 10; Boss=9
Cranskster: 18 total: Drony=8; Angry=5; Preachy=2; Insane=1; Meme=2
Norton: 16 total: Drony=10; Angry=4; Insane=1; Meme=1
EdwardT: 12 total: Drony=10: Meme=2
HermitMaster: 10 total: Drony=4; Boss=1; Meme=5
Dirtbag: 10 total: Drony=9; Preachy=1

The surprising piece of data for me is that I thought philo would win the angry count but Craig Fry is strong on the vitriol and surged to the top position as probably the angriest man on Supertopo. Anyway this video is dedicated to Craig Fry, philo, and crankster: Lighten up Sandra.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

climber
Dec 4, 2015 - 11:32pm PT
Wow you really have a lot of spare time and pitiful hobby.
But do you feel better now?

How was my angry snark?
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Dec 5, 2015 - 06:59am PT
My analysis, based on reading 13.2% of krahmes post and subdividing by the coefficient of cheeky (.463):

krahmes: 1, but dumbest post on the thread. Not easy given the completion. Congratulations! And thanks for not re-posting the Charlton Heston NRA video.

This data is a bit surprising given the repetition of rightwing media talking points. But my results are accurate, he's the winner.

krahmes, my suggested therapy: take a long hike or swim. Long.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 5, 2015 - 07:39am PT
'Drony'? Me? Let me tell you what I think about that.

There is a dark force working to infringe upon our most important constitutional rights. That dark force is Krahmes. To get immediately to the point, Krahmes has recently stated that this is the best of all possible worlds and that he is the best of all possible people. Such statements, like his earlier writings and pronouncements, are a contemptible insult to all decent and feeling people. I've tried explaining to his apple-polishers that I'm sure we would all appreciate a remote control with the power to mute him whenever he goes into a long-winded rant about how matters of racial justice should enter a period of “benign neglect”. Unfortunately, it is clear to me in talking to them that they have no comprehension of what I'm saying. I might as well be talking to creatures from Mars. In fact, I'd bet Martians would be more likely to discern that over time, Krahmes's litanies have progressed from being merely intemperate to being superintemperate, hyperintemperate, and recently ultraintemperate. In fact, I'd say that now they're even megaintemperate.

Fortunately, if you ever get into an argument with some of Krahmes's lieutenants about whether or not he started as merely a contumelious geek but quickly devolved into a snippy erastophiliac, I have an excellent sockdolager for you. Simply inform the other party that wherever abrasive lowbrows are seen turning back the clock and repealing all the civil rights and anti-discrimination legislation now on the books, Krahmes is there. Wherever fatuitous doomsday prophets are found humiliating, subjugating, and eventually eliminating everyone who wants to begin the invigorating, rejuvenating process of offering a framework for discussion so that we can more quickly reach a consensus, Krahmes is lurking nearby. Wherever hateful dossers are observed punishing dissent through intimidation, public ridicule, economic exclusion, imprisonment, and most extremely, death, Krahmes will no doubt be in the vicinity. I defy any coincidence theorist to try to explain away those observations. Clearly, Krahmes will create an unwelcome climate for those of us who are striving to find more constructive contexts in which to work toward resolving conflicts because he possesses a hatred that defies all logic and understanding, that cannot be quantified or reasoned away, and that savagely possesses the most haughty tax cheats I've ever seen with odious and uncontrollable rage.

The devastation caused by Krahmes's ramblings is entropic, but it does not have to be inevitable. That is, if we are vigilant in inculcating in the reader an inquisitive spirit and a skepticism about beliefs that Krahmes's disciples take for granted we will be able to sway people towards the realization that a central point of his belief systems is the notion that his writings are a veritable encyclopedia of everything that is directly pertinent to mankind's spiritual and intellectual development. Perhaps Krahmes should take some new data into account and revisit that notion. I think he'd find that if one dares to criticize even a single tenet of his snow jobs, one is promptly condemned as sniveling, sexist, obstreperous, or whatever epithet he deems most appropriate, usually without much explanation. If Fate desired that Krahmes make a correct application of what he had read about teetotalism it would have to indicate title and page number since the nettlesome galoot would otherwise never in all his life find the correct place. But since Fate does not do this, we must always remember that Krahmes's disorderly objectives are intended to rot out the minds of all freedom-loving, free-thinking people. Once that's accomplished, he can replace such people with compliant, Krahmes-controlled, and, above all, obedient robots who would never think to champion the poor and oppressed against the evil of Krahmes. These automata will guarantee the destruction of anything that looks like a vital community in the immediate years ahead.

I plan to expose some of Krahmes's officious deeds. Are you with me—or against me? Whatever you decide, Krahmes's view is that the stork is responsible for procreation. If Krahmes's adversarial, amoral pals had any moral or intellectual training, such a position would undoubtedly be rendered revolting to their better feelings. I personally want nothing more—or less—than to take away as many of Krahmes's opportunities for mischief as possible. To that task I have consecrated my life and I invite you to do likewise. If Krahmes honestly believes that some of my points are not valid, I would love to get some specific feedback from him.

While some information provided by Krahmes's acolytes may be factual, other material is unsubstantiated rumor or brutish perceptions. Krahmes's cat's-paws claim to have no choice but to abrogate some of our most fundamental freedoms. I wish there were some way to help these miserable, inconsiderate sad sacks. They are outcasts, lost in a world they didn't make and don't understand. On this subject we get only a lot of blather and obfuscation from Krahmes and his sympathizers. No, scratch that. Let me instead make the much stronger claim that Krahmes's most steadfast claim is that it is his moral imperative to subordinate all spheres of society to an ideological vision of organic community. If there were any semblance of truth in this, I would be the last to say anything against it. As it stands, however, I correctly predicted that Krahmes would spread rumors, gossip, and stories that are unequivocally false. Alas, I didn't think he'd do that so effectively—or so soon. Let me end this letter by pointing out that the battle to call for a return to the values that made this country great is now joined on many fronts. We will not waver; we will not tire; we will not falter; and we will not fail.
philo

climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 08:21am PT
HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Dec 5, 2015 - 08:49am PT
Stewart

Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
Dec 5, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history.

Ludvig von Mises
Norton

Social climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
HDDJ

those polls you showed above are national and not state specific

yet the Electoral College IS state specific, rendering national polls truly = useless
philo

climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
Tater in the tail pipe, motor no go.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
Hermit- If you really think capitalism and socialism are as practiced in the real world two distinct, separate things that people choose between then you are posting too much and thinking too little.
philo

climber
Dec 5, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
Putin announces Republican presidential campaign
Posted on December 2, 2015 by StubhillNews
putinshadesWASHINGTON D.C.— Responding to popularity among conservative pundits and on social media, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced he will run for the Republican presidential nomination.

“Your candidates are weak,” declared Putin, whose late arrival to the race did not prevent him from surging to the top of the polls.

“I will fix your mess,” said Putin between shots of vodka. “I will beat your problems into submission.”

He was received with a standing ovation and a roar of applause.

Putin responded to criticisms from the left that not being a born citizen of the United States was a disqualifying factor.

“No one thinks current president was America born,” said Putin while smashing an empty bottle of vodka on the ground. “Who cares? At least I’m not Muslim terrorist!”

According to poll analysis, Trump’s support, which hasn’t dipped below 20 percent in months, has virtually evaporated due to Putin’s entry to the race.

At press time, several Republican candidates’ bodies were found in dumpsters.

Follow Stubhill News on Twitter and Facebook for all the latest news

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Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 5, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
In an update, those republicans in dumpsters claim they were looking for their constituents.
philo

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 07:01am PT

Wow I did not know about Leo Penn. Huge respect to Sean Penns dad.
Huge shame on all Faux Patriots.




Sean Penn on His Blacklisted Dad: 'There Was No Loyalty'

by Sean Penn 11/19/2012 10:00am PST
In a guest piece for THR, the actor remembers the grace and dignity with which his father endured the harsh, damning wounds inflicted by an industry -- and a country -- that turned against him.

My father, Leo Penn, was a patriot to his core. The son of Spanish-Lithuanian immigrants, he was born in Lawrence, Mass., in 1921, a child of the Great Depression. His father moved the family to California on a Greyhound bus after finding work as an orange picker and later as a leather-goods maker in East Los Angeles. It was from the sloping foothills of City Terrace of the '30s and '40s, above the orange groves leading into the San Fernando Valley on one end and Chavez Ravine on the other, that my dad lived, firsthand, the great promise of America. Over the years, his father opened a bakery and came to whittle out a reasonable slice of middle-class life.

Then, as my father hit his late teens, came World War II. Underage but with youthful patriotic vigor, he tried to enlist with the Army infantry but was passed onto what was the Army Air Force when a doctor determined his feet were flat. My dad signed up to serve the United States and flew with a B-24 Liberator as a tail gunner and bombardier. Theirs were low-altitude night bombings over Germany's war machine. For these particular missions, an airman's average life expectancy was a total of seven sorties. At seven, these enlisted men flew on a volunteer basis only. My father's squad broke all records, volunteering to fly 37 missions in all -- 30 more than what was required. Shot down twice, his captain, Myron McNamara, was able to guide the damaged aircraft over Allied lines before my father and the entire crew parachuted to safety.

Leo Penn returned to the U.S. a highly decorated war veteran and began a burgeoning career in film and onstage. He played leading roles on Broadway and in Hollywood. Then, the sky fell. Based on his support of Hollywood trade unions, a commitment to the same social democracy that had been the legacy of President Franklin Roosevelt and his refusal to give names to the rising neo-Nazi-inspired House Committee on Un-American Activities, he was blacklisted by chicken hawks (among them Ronald Reagan) and barred from working in motion pictures by the same country for which he had risked his life those few short years earlier.

In fact, few among the Blacklist's principal architects ever risked career, much less life, in the defense of an American principle. And as with so many others, the country and the media stood by like frightened sheep. In the end, there was no loyalty for a soldier -- and no courage to cusp the pack of cowards and the ignorant disposition to identify with a popular lunacy. But the man I grew up with never showed bitterness. It seemingly was an effortless belief for him, that his great country simply had gone through a "bad stage" but that its foundation was never to be diminished, the flag was never not his own, and he never doubted it. He was a gentle and fair-minded man.

I remember as a kid walking down a beach path with my father as we stumbled upon the set of Elia Kazan's The Last Tycoon (1976). My father and Kazan had worked together and known each other before the Blacklist period. After all the years, Kazan recognized him and called out his name. It was the first time I ever witnessed my father ignore someone.

But, conversely, when the daughter of director Edward Dmytryk started a dog-grooming company in my hometown, I asked her to come by and see if she wanted to take care of my dogs when I left town. I mentioned this to my dad, and he immediately spoke well of her father. I asked, "Hadn't Edward Dmytryk also named names as Kazan had?" He said, "Yes, but not until he himself had done jail time for refusing to cooperate." Evidently, it was in jail where Dmytryk's view had shifted. What separated Kazan and Dmytryk, in my dad's assessment, was that what Dmytryk did, he did for his beliefs and following sacrifice -- as if considering him a perhaps hostile but loyal opposition nonetheless.

In Kazan's case, it was clear he had cowered and sold out himself and all those for whom he might otherwise have broken the Blacklist. Kazan was in an extraordinary position of influence, and he squandered it in shame. It took heroes like Kirk Douglas, years later, to finally break its back. My father often would say to me, "Everybody's got their own truth, kid." And that is true, though some remain untold, and unchallenged.

I will never forget at my father's funeral, as the honor guard passed the flag, folded into a meticulous triangle, over my lap to my mother beside me, stating, "In the name of the president of the United States, for his distinguished service." Indeed, it was distinguished. And so now is it our turn. We still sit silently while chicken hawks and bottle-blond and unsubtly augmented pundits sing cheap poison in best-selling books, bloated radio and skin-deep TV. Still today, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences has yet to offer a clear acknowledgment of its own complicity in the shameful witch hunt of the 1950s that was the Blacklist. In the name of patriotism and patriots (most of whom would never have even asked for it) and in the name of our own dignity … it's time

In his 40 years in Hollywood, Sean Penn has won two Oscars and has been nominated for three more while serving as an outspoken political and social activist.

dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 07:16am PT
Someone's been busy deleting this morning...
philo

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 07:35am PT
I don't believe your premise. Perhaps the staunchest defenders of personal dogma won't change but others less entrenched can certainly process new information and make informed choices. I believe it is important to continue to speak to power.
philo

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 07:42am PT
Why are you here then?
philo

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 07:54am PT
So in light of your assertion do you think your commentry will effect change in anyone.
Sadly the fact that you only scan through theses threads before assuming a conclusion means you miss out on the occassional pearls of wisdom strewn before swine.
When a poster repeats a BS lie they need to be called on it. The same applies to the candidates for public office. Journalists shopuld not let these sociopaths spews lies without countering them with facts everytime.
philo

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:02am PT
You know this forum has more than once been cited in articles in the NY Times right?
Do you get that some threads travel farther than your screen. RickA's threads about Lyin Ryan exposed the man's lies and scuttled his candidacy. Yes it does matter. Sorry that it doesn't for you.
philo

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 08:11am PT
Read this and tell me why anyone not in the top 10% would vote for these reprehensible self serving maggots?



A Gift From Congress, to Congress

Congress is getting ready to give itself loads of extra campaign dollars again this holiday season.

The catchall spending bill scheduled for a vote by Dec. 11 is what’s known in Washington as a “Christmas tree”: legislation festooned with amendments that are gifts to legislators and their home districts, or that create new, ideologically based policy that has little to do with the bill’s purpose, which is funding the government. Now the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, and some House Republicans are reportedly planning to add four campaign finance riders to the $1.1 trillion bill’s already-groaning branches, hoping to help Republicans in elections next year.

Mr. McConnell has personally put forward the rider that would expand his colleagues’ campaign coffers. It would allow the National Republican Senatorial Committee and its Democratic counterpart to escape restrictions on expenditures they make in coordination with an individual candidate.

Under current law, a donor can give $2,700 to a candidate in a primary race and $2,700 for the general election. That same donor can also legally give $33,400 annually to a national party committee, like the Senate campaign committee. Federal law limits how much of that amount can be spent in coordination with a candidate. The new proposal would allow a candidate to solicit the $5,400 maximum from a donor, and then ask the same donor to give $33,400 to the party, which could then coordinate the spending of that entire amount with the candidate.

Photo

Senator Mitch McConnell Credit J. Scott Applewhite/Associated Press
The other three riders seek to prevent President Obama or federal government agencies from taking steps to require fuller disclosure of contributions made by outside groups in federal elections.

One rider would prevent the president from issuing an executive order to require government contractors to disclose their campaign finance activities, as campaign finance watchdogs are urging him to do. Another would prevent the Securities and Exchange Commission from issuing new rules requiring publicly traded companies to disclose their campaign finance activities to shareholders. The third seeks to prevent the I.R.S. from issuing new regulations aimed at stopping so-called social welfare groups with 501(c)(4) tax-exempt status from functioning primarily as political campaign entities, not social welfare groups.

Campaign finance watchdogs worry that because the spending bill has so many higher-profile riders for legislators to fight over, the campaign finance amendments will slip through. And because they would channel more money to candidates of both parties, there is less will for halting them.

In a delicious bit of irony, Mr. McConnell needs Democratic support to pass his rider, because the Tea Party mavericks are opposing him. They say the extra cash would chiefly benefit establishment candidates, not Tea Party members, who are financed by super PACs and grass-roots donors outside the national party apparatus.

This week, more than 100 Democrats signed a letter announcing their intentions to oppose the campaign finance riders. The spending bill is the last legislation Congress will consider before lawmakers go home for the holiday recess. Democrats should do the right thing and strip these four bad riders from the bill.
philo

climber
Dec 6, 2015 - 11:43am PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Dec 6, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
"Considering that no one ever changes their mind on these threads, why do you continue to post?"


Well, back & forths with ideologic opposites can be simply entertaining, and in a few unusual cases (i.e. John E) I actually learn a few things. As soon as you take this stuff too seriously, though, you're fooked.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 06:35am PT
Randisi posted
Hey, guys. Just dropped in to make sure everyone knows I don't read this thread and don't care what any of you have to say. I can't believe how much hate you guys are perpetuating. You're a pathetic joke. I'd never stoop to insulting people on a politics thread on the internet. Anyway, I'll just be somewhere else not posting in this thread or reading any of your responses because I'm so awesome.

In political news, Obama gave a speech from the Oval Office, only his third as President.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
philo

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 07:01am PT
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 7, 2015 - 10:53am PT
Please give me an example of this. [people changing their minds based on what was posted on ST]

No one reads these threads carefully except you guys. No one will ever read them again. Except perhaps some psychologist or sociologist, I suspect.

I completely changed my outlook on anthropogenic global warming based on posts (with citations to other material) from Chiloe.

I have no delusions about changing the minds of anyone. I post, in part, because I find debate stimulates the intellect, and in part because different perspectives may lead some to broaden their minds. Posting on a thread where everyone agrees strikes me as useless. Posting on one with substantial disagreement not only provides better entertainment, it sometimes teaches me something.

john
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 7, 2015 - 11:02am PT
I hate the "Free Lunch" analogy of John's

anything that sounds like a free lunch is automatically deemed bad and unsustainable

It sounds from your post that you misunderstand the "free lunch" concept. When people attack a "free lunch" in an argument, they say that the argument fails to account for the cost necessary to achieve the claimed result.

I agree with Craig that most regulation results because of dissatifcation with unregulated results. The problem with regulation is that there is no a priori reason to assume that regulation (which is necessarily imperfect) will be better than a lack of regulation (which is necessarily imperfect).

The typical argument for regulation says that the market fails because it imperfectly allocates goods or services. Therefore, we should regulate that market because the regulators will be able to allocate the goods and services better.

The "therefore" in the previous paragraph is a non-sequitur. What does it require for regulators to allocate good and services better? At the very least, it requires knowledge of the optimal allocation, and what means will bring that allocation about. The regulators aren't born with that knowledge. As most of us who work in a profession should know, knowledge isn't free. Only after we account for the cost of the regulation, and compare it with the cost of the lack of the regulation, can we make an intelligent decision.

Saying that the argument uses a "free lunch" merely says all of the above in a more compact way.

John
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 11:19am PT
538 made a fun tool that will let you "unskew the polls" to imagine whatever electoral outcome you want!

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-swing-the-election/



(Remember that guy? http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/unskewed-polls-founder-i-was-only-wrong-because-i-didn-t-consider-voter-fraud);



*edit* Oh, man. His website is now owned by some sort of german hair fetish company: http://unskewedpolls.com/

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 7, 2015 - 11:32am PT
Dayum!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 7, 2015 - 11:46am PT
Ya think???
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 11:59am PT
Ralph Peters sounds like a total pussy when you stack him up against Gen. Curtis LeMay.


I think there are many times when it would be most efficient to use nuclear weapons.
However, the public opinion in this country and throughout the world throw up their hands in horror when you mention nuclear weapons, just because of the propaganda that's been fed to them.
Gen. Curtis LeMay

( I think the horror had a little to do with the mass destruction of two Japanese cities, and maybe that the Soviets had them, too)


Plus, LeMay had that racism thing going for him the Donald finds so appealing.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 7, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
Lorenzo, I remember when LeMay was mentioned as a presidential candidate. Some speculated that his campaign slogan could be "Bombs Away with Curt LeMay."

John
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 12:07pm PT

He was the vice presidential candidate in George Wallace's 1968 presidential campaign.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2015 - 12:30pm PT
That's a sweet dildo.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Dec 7, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
I remember that year's campaign, but he was mentioned as a Presidential nominee in early 1964, before Goldwater sewed up the nomination. The Republican nomination was up in the air that year until the California primary in June of 1964. I liked that pace a whole lot more than I like the pace currently, which seems to have nominations decided by mid-April at the latest.

The 1966 campaign in California was a lot more fun, with Wolfman Jack's campaign for Governor: "Don't vote left. Don't vote right. Vote wrong! Wolfman Jack for Governor."

John
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 02:00pm PT
Donald J. Trump called on Monday for the United States to bar all Muslims from entering the country until the nation’s leaders can “figure out what is going on,” an extraordinary escalation of his harsh rhetoric aimed at members of the Islamic faith in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks in Paris and San Bernardino, Calif.
“Without looking at the various polling data, it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine,” said Mr. Trump, the leading Republican candidate for his party’s 2016 presidential nomination.
“Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life,” he said.


Um, Donald....maybe your rhetoric has something to do with whatever hatred you perceive.


Great plan, not withstanding that one of the shooters was born here, there is no legal statute that allows banning people by religion, and the constitution bars any laws regarding free exercise of religion ( or lack of it) being enacted.

Third Article:
Congress shall make no law establishing religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, nor shall the rights of Conscience be infringed.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 7, 2015 - 02:32pm PT
That would depend on the outcome of the next election.

It could be a shining moment in our history.

(Looking at Argentina Real Estate sites just in case)
Norton

Social climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 02:46pm PT
Well it sure looks like it is going to be Trump vs Clinton

and if so

a Landslide victory for Hillary Clinton and all the way down ticket Democrats

The Dems take back the US Senate, gain some seats in the House and Hillary
get 7-10 million more votes than Trump and wins by well over 100 Electoral Votes

and the Republicans learn absolutely nothing from it

never understanding that their base of angry old white males are dying off

and the new America of multi ethnic and much more educated population that
sees through their lies, racism and hate speech insures that we will not see a
Republican President again in our lifetimes, their days in the sun are over

Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Dec 7, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

I'm not islamophobic.
I am afraid of people who want the death penalty for such things as apostasy, homosexuality, and adultry.
I want to know if my neighbors believe this sort of stuff.
If they believe that "God's Law" supersedes the laws of men.
The human race needs to grow out of superstitions, especially dangerous ones.

Edit: I also think Norton's analysis is spot on . . .
Norton

Social climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 02:50pm PT
Islam IS as peaceful a religion as Christianity

but extreme, radical Islam is not, and the world WILL ultimately defeat it

more and more nations are joining in together now to crush ISIS and its kind

Christianity during the butchering in god's name Crusades is the today's ISIS

Christians eventually grew up and stopped that sh!t

ISIS and its followers won't grow up, they have to be killed
WBraun

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 02:56pm PT
If they believe that "God's Law" supersedes the laws of men.
The human race needs to grow out of superstitions, especially dangerous ones.

Gods law supersedes all the laws of mankind.

It's guaranteed YOU (life) will be kicked of your material body when your allotted breathes are finished (death).

There's no escape ......
Reeotch

climber
4 Corners Area
Dec 7, 2015 - 03:00pm PT
Norton, I'd like to hear you respond to some of Mr. Watson's arguements.

Please view this clip first.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e9b_1421092375

^^^^Moderate Muslims supporting the death penalty for the 3 things I mentioned above.
Scary.

Happens all the time in Saudi Arabia, but they are our crack dealer, so we don't say anything . . .
dirtbag

climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
never understanding that their base of angry old white males are dying off

I think a lot of them understand this dilemma.

The problem is that if they embrace diversity they will be divided into a Conservative party that is pro-immigration and a Conservative party that opposes it (I.e., angry old white guys). Thats basically trump's threat this election if he deems the party to be acting unfairly and abandons it for a third party run. The vote would be split.

In the short run, i.e., the next several election cycles, I really don't know how they can walk out of the corner they have painted themselves into. They angry white guy base seems to be in no mood to compromise.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 7, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
Lorenzo, it is troubling that you cannot even quote the Constitution correctly!


Amendment I (1): Freedom of religion, speech, and the press; rights of assembly and petition

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press,
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 7, 2015 - 03:42pm PT
The Donald keeps doubling down on The Hate.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-calls-for-complete-shutdown-on-muslims-entering-us/ar-AAg86Ic?li=BBnb7Kz

I'm sure someone will try to defend him by saying that he is being misquoted or set up and "trapped" by the "liberal" media, or that he is so cute for saying such outrageous things.

How can anyone seriously consider this whacko for POTUS? He is the perfert tool for Daesh to start the apocalypse.
Norton

Social climber
Dec 7, 2015 - 03:59pm PT
Reeotch

I viewed the video of the "moderate" Muslims saying they support stoning-adultery

I get your point, but here is mine

there are some 1.5 BILLION Muslims world wide that emphatically do NOT "support" the extreme parts of the Koran, their Bible

the Muslims in the video can collectively be in a peer group and say they do but in
fact their actions speak otherwise, ie - they know damn well adultery is going on
and no one is getting stoned for it in Norway or her