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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Nov 24, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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DMT...... Well the Ruskis could support the Kerds, who could then Declare themselves and Independent state....and take some of that Turkish territory.... and Invite the Ruskies to come on through the new Nation Of Kurdistan....
And WTF about NATO?
I thought it stood for "North Atlantic Treaty Organization" and looking on the map you provided the North Atlantic is nowhere near Turkey.
So I say screw the Turks, after the little demonstration of solidarity at the football game the other day.... screw those backstabers. Let Isis go over them for a while, that might just change their outlook on things....
Jes Saying
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:03am PT
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But I would submit that the shoot down of the fighter was strategic, not tactical.
Yes, of course.
In the modern "24 hour news cycle" world, tactical is strategic.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:04am PT
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The Russians? Nyet.
so it is about equipment.. lol
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:04am PT
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We're just being silly to even discuss Putin bringing 150K troops in. He was just trumping.
More to the point the POTUS today mentioned the "moderate Syrian forces" while also sadly
mispronouncing Hollande's name a la Hot Lips Hoolihan. His insistence that such 'moderates'
even exist just makes my Syrian friends shake their heads, but they're too polite to come right
out and say he's full of you-know-what. I realize that the word moderate is a relative term but
in that hood that's hardly an honorific. Given our long and sordid history of picking and backing
the wrong people couldn't we just stop that nonsense and bomb everybody? Then we'll know
we got the bad guys.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:10am PT
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lol..
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:15am PT
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Aren't you full of yourself DMT. And full of it as well.
Study up boy. Russia and Iran have a long history of cooperation and treaties in place as well as mutually compatible ambitions.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:21am PT
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In the modern "24 hour news cycle" world, tactical is strategic.
Uh, yeah. Really yeah.
One private doing one thing in a tactical sense can now be strategic (Abu Graib anyone?).
One shot down plane, insignificant in some contexts, is strategic nowadays.
So you're right, this shootdown was meant to send a message in a strategic sense.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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Emotions are for enlisted men. Here in the situation room we have to keep a cool mind.
Yup.... Like going home, hitting your nice comfortable warm cosey bed all the while that one of your Ambassadors and his team of five Sec "Enlisted Men" Agents are getting their azzes over run by 75 plus Bad Guys with the sole intent of terminating their azzes.
Got it.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:24am PT
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I do look at the map, and cannot figure out how that Russian plane could have gotten to syria without going over Turkey.
But others have touched on a subject that I think is relevant: While there is a tendency to focus on technological superiority as determining the outcomes of a dogfight, it has been pretty well proven that it is actually the quality of the pilot that determines the outcome. This is what resulted in "Top Gun" school.
Example: Chuck Yeager was testing a MIG 15 that a defecting NK pilot turned over to us. A Colonel that flew F-86's in Korea was on leave and asked why Yeager wasn't doing dogfight testing.
Yeager told him that was more dependent on pilot experience than on an airplane's performance....the Col. didn't believe him, so Yeager let him fly the MIG, and dogfight Yeager in the F-86. Yeager crushed him.
They landed, switched planes, and Yeager again crushed him.
That said, I think of all our pilots, getting experience over the last 10 years in combat zones, actually flying missions in danger, actually putting in hours, multitasking, looking around them, learning things to a reflexive degree. It isn't dogfighting, but it is gaining real mastery of one's aircraft. I can't help but think that is a real advantage.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:27am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^ Oh boy... Another "Military" expert!
RFLMAO
Reilly, these dooooods here are so, too real.
Carry on.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:29am PT
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A second Russian aircraft, this time a SAR helicopter was shot down too. This time by "rebels." Presumably the same rebels that the Russians have been bombing.
Something like this became inevitable the moment that the Russians started bombing "not ISIS."
Interesting times indeed.
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The Chief
climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:32am PT
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Of course, Daesh hasn't the capabilities to "shoot down" any Russian aircraft.
They're just a "JV" team.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:33am PT
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His insistence that such 'moderates' even exist just makes my Syrian friends shake their heads, but they're too polite to come right
out and say he's full of you-know-what.
You sound like Ronda Anderson talking about all of his Gay Liberal Mexican Saudi Canadian Muslim friends.....
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:35am PT
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Of course, Daesh hasn't the capabilities to "shoot down" any Russian aircraft.
They're just a "JV" team.
I need to start making a habit of calling them Daesh.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:41am PT
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Turkey F#ched up. Stupid idiots.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:42am PT
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I need to start making a habit of calling them Daesh.
I agree. Good idea that The Chief started a few posts higher than the one quoted.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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We must be using a different definition for strategic, mtnyoung.
Maybe. But see below.
This was not a tactical decision. If so, the tactics would precede the strategy and I just don't think that is the case here. They were ready and waiting.
I agree. I think that the decision to shoot down this plane was not made by the Turkish pilots who shot it down. The Russian incursion wasn't accidental, "pilot error."
When I use the phrases "tactical" and "strategic" here, I'm speaking really of the effects of the action (here it will affect and influence at least two powerful countries, both armed to the teeth). So what might in some circumstances look like a tactical action (it was a shoot-down of "only" one airplane) has strategic effects.
And thanks, The Chief for a thought out and courteous reply.
EDIT:
God I'm old or busy. Or both.
I mis-read DMT's reply as being from The Chief.
Well, The Chief, I would thank you too for a thought out and courteous reply ;)
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:58am PT
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Blessed is the Turkey
Blessed is the turkey who has paid for all our sins,
For we immigrants and pilgrims of un-sacred origins,
Who traveled from so far away to be Americans,
Displacing all the people just the means to the ends,
Like slavery and imprisonment our gratitude depends,
On the name of your religion and the color of your skins,
So gather around the table and imbibe with us my friends,
The constitution favors in the end the one that wins,
Now bring along your wallet and your legislative friends,
And all the rich and famous and some criminal king pins,
'Cause no matter what the hand you're dealt the dealer always wins,
And blessed are the turkeys who have paid for all our sins.
-turkeyman
11/24/2015
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Nov 24, 2015 - 11:58am PT
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"I'm talking Russia, today's Puff Daddies. Oh they can wallop some terrorists, reduce a desert mud city to rubble. They're good at bombing civilians. And sneaking around in the Ukraine like the bushwhackers they are.
But in a head to head fight with a competent opponent? Please....."
DMT, earlier on this thread.
So that's what the title on the thread says, eh, DMT????
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 24, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
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Hey, Survival, why don't you address the totality of my paragraph instead of
making snarky non sequitors? My Syrian friends still have family over there
so I value their assessment, based on first hand real-time knowledge AT LEAST
as much as our State Department's which goes through how many filters to
give it the desired 'flavor'? Oh, and my last sentence is 'flavored' by
my friend who is a Section Chief in an embassy over there, so snark that.
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