Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
|
Fet,
There's a big human component to the environment.
Yes, it is called culture. We made it.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 24, 2015 - 11:52pm PT
|
I have yet to see someone that studies the environment (botanists, ecologist, zoologists, chemists, geographers etc) have concern over bolts for affecting the environment. Anyone know of anyone getting research funding for the environmental effects of bolts on the atmosphere, plants etc?
It would be hard to construct a more bogus argument than this. It has nothing to do with the 'environment' and everything to do with unnecessary human impact in a shared place revered for it's aesthetics.
These people bothered by bolts have cultivated their dislike of them: hence it is cultural -- the problems exist in their heads only. There are likely no significant physical measurements to show bolts are hurting/disrupting the ecosystem. Some of the people that cultivate the idea that bolts are atrocious become incessant complainers to land managers that are paid to politely listen to these type of complaints. The land managers may make cultural adjustments to grease the squeaking wheel--rules.
Almost doesn't rate a 'seriously' and indicates you a) either don't get the issue at all, b) you're all about constructing really bad strawman arguments or c) you've never seen a bolt you didn't like.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 03:59am PT
|
Dingus argues for the sport of it.
He is a sportarguer.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 05:12am PT
|
healyje,
pretty much the issue of bolts boils down to a faction's aesthetics preservation vs. the public at large user's rights/privileges[here safety & maybe convenience?]. There are no scientific like variable here to study and hence the topic is not in the domain of science. Again, the issues bolts create are a cultural phenomena -- purely in the heads of the aesthetic players. Aesthetics vs. Engineering for safety. And some of the ideas the players hold about bolts really do create high wattage brainstorms for them.
Mind is a minefield -- Ulysses. It looks like one of my word robots has stepped on a minefield in your mind? You let the robot into your mind.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 05:32am PT
|
pretty much the issue of bolts boils down to a faction's aesthetics preservation vs. the public at large user's rights/privileges[here safety & maybe convenience?].
There is no 'public at large user's rights / privileges' to bolt on public land, but I'd say these days there's an overwhelming sense of entitlement to remake the outdoors into a facsimile of their local gym so they can avail themselves of risk-free entertainment instead of climbing.
There are no scientific like variable here to study and hence the topic is not in the domain of science.
I agree, so then why keep spouting the nonsensical environmental strawmen? It has nothing to do with the environment.
Again, the issues bolts create are a cultural phenomena -- purely in the heads of the aesthetic players. Aesthetics vs. Engineering for safety. And some of the ideas the players hold about bolts really do create high wattage brainstorms for them.
That's because they're a pain to have to go chop, the attitudes behind their endless proliferation are beyond sad and consumptive, and - check it out - they are a permanent addition to the rock that many find entirely unwelcome. I get it that you're one of the now endless "just don't clip'em" demographic who never seen a bolt that wasn't welcome and who that can't really understand what the problem is - but rest assured there is one regardless.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 06:02am PT
|
healyje,
Are you clueless??
the bolt problem is a creation of yours -- you don't get it?
Safety will almost always trump aesthetics. Chop 'em and we will replace 'em. And you will be sending your puny ass all over the planet to redeem your personal aesthetics? We call that type religious fanatics.
Genghis Khan claimed too much domain and could not keep on keeping on...
but climbed that bridge after he was way past it..
Welcome to the valid world of sport climbing and safety.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 08:08am PT
|
|
|
Gynical Pinnacle
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 09:42am PT
|
I climbed the Kor-Ingalls on the Sunday of the highline event and thought I would chime in with some first-hand information.
First, my understanding was that the group used both the bolts and natural protection (I believe they slung a big block) as a backup. My impression was that the highline bolts were much less intrusive than the normal rap bolts, seeing as how the rap bolts include about six feet of chain laying around the summit. Furthermore, I seem to recall the highline bolts being on a slightly less prominent part of the summit than the rap bolts. In general, I think the visual impact of the new bolts will be much lower than that of the rap station.
From talking with members of the slackline group - both on the summit and afterwards in the Castleton campground - they were all friendly and very stand-up people. The slackliners on the summit offered to let us rap their fixed lines, and were generally pretty humble and respectful. The constant buzzing of the camera drone was somewhat annoying, but I suppose that's just the inevitable future of all outdoor sports.
Bottom line: this group of slackliners appeared to be at least as respectful of their impact as the average group of climbers.
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 09:47am PT
|
If your neighbor's dog shits on your lawn you would expect him to clean up the mess.
sometimes you have to pick up after your neighbors.. Stoney Point has seen bolt issues for years.. Slack liners come out here and set up as-well... THEY ARE HAVING FUN IN THE PARK TOO..
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 10:02am PT
|
There is no 'public at large user's rights / privileges' to bolt on public land, but I'd say these days there's an overwhelming sense of entitlement to remake the outdoors into a facsimile of their local gym so they can avail themselves of risk-free entertainment instead of climbing.
Amen. The pussification of climbing is a disgrace. Don't mess with my wild cliffs and I won't mess with your tamed, emasculated pos routes.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 10:03am PT
|
Bolts are an environmental impact. Again the environment is everything, not just the biophysical/natural environment, legally and scientifically speaking. I studied environmental science so I'm somewhat familiar with it.
Section 101 of The National Environmental Policy Act states that “…it is the continuing responsibility of the Federal Government to…(1) fulfill the responsibilities of each generation as trustee of the environment for succeeding generations; (2) assure for
all Americans safe, healthful, productive, and aesthetically and culturally pleasing surroundings; (3) attain the
widest range of beneficial uses of the environment without degradation, risk to health or safety, or other
undesirable and unintended consequences; (4) preserve important historic, cultural, and natural aspects of
our national heritage, and maintain, wherever possible, an environment which supports diversity, and variety
of individual choice; (5) achieve a balance between population and resource use which will permit high
standards of living and a wide sharing of life’s amenities; and (6) enhance the quality of renewable resources
and approach the maximum attainable recycling of depletable resources.”
This could be studied scientifically if someone had the time and inclination to do so. It would probably entail a survey of different users to determine the value of the bolts to the people who use them, vs. the cost of the degradation of the aesthetics and other impacts to the people who don't want them.
That's also a framework I use to form my opinion for specific situations. In this example, say the bolts were necessary to set up the highline (which I don't know). Then the slackliners got a lot of value from these bolts. While if I do a climb there the aesthetic degradation to me is very minimal. So I would say the value of the bolts to the slackliners is greater than the degradation to me. For other bolts it would be different. For example if someone retrobolts a climb to make it easier they are removing challenge and value from that climb for everyone that does that climb. In that case I think the value of those bolts to those that want them is less than the value of the degradation the bolts caused to the aesthetics, history, and challenge of the climb.
That framework can also incorporate additional variables. For example imagine someone is on a climb, a storm is moving in, and a natural feature breaks and they need to rappel and they put in a bolt. That bolt has tremendous value because it's going to allow them to live. I think this is where Dingus' safety trumps aesthetics comes in. Maybe someone can repeat the route in the future and use a hook in that section, fine. But in that situation a bolt is so valuable you don't even question if it's justified.
But is someone retrobolts the Bachar-Yerian because "it's not safe" enough you'd hear a tremendous outcry because that route has huge value as a mental test piece and historical value. And there are other routes that are "safer" if that's what you want.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 10:56am PT
|
Fet,
Is the bold formatting your addition?
It would probably entail a survey of different users to determine the value of the bolts to the people who use them, vs. the cost of the degradation of the aesthetics and other impacts to the people who don't want them.
These surveys are political science at best ---hardly science.
Every things and anything that changes then becomes an environmental impact. But such is the Federal Gov to assert by definition its jurisdiction of all domains.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 11:02am PT
|
Yes, because it relates to this situation. And bolts in general.
It's a pretty well written act IMO. e.g. "an environment which supports diversity, and variety of individual choice"
For climbing I see that as we should have well protected sports climbs AND run out mental test pieces. If it's like parts of Europe where bolts proliferate we lose those mental test pieces. Not every climb should be safe or setup for all climbers. On the other hand if someone wants to put up a bolted sport climb FA in Yosemite they should be allowed to do that. Of course that is the case now but it was controversial in the past.
|
|
10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired Climber
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 11:07am PT
|
Highlining is a sport for slackers, and no one else.
I agree with donini, the bolts should go away.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 11:10am PT
|
Of course that is the case now but it was controversial in the past.
So these wants are relative and all just in the head? Cultivated ideas if you will?
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 11:11am PT
|
Climbing is a sport for climbers, and no one else.
I agree with the native Americans, the bolts should go away.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 11:26am PT
|
So these wants are relative and all just in the head? Cultivated ideas if you will?
Yes I believe so.
We have real differences of opinion which is fine, but I think we should try to understand other's viewpoints and values. At the very least if you try to understand someone else's position you get less frustrated with them, because you see where they are coming from.
Ideas do change. There was a big backlash against sport climbing in the US in the 80s (and even some are still against it) but most people have come to accept it and see the value in it. Without sport climbing I doubt they would have done the Dawn Wall free climb. Without sport climbing I would have not been able to do perhaps 1/3 the climbs I have done in my life because they wouldn't exist. You can't naturally protect many steep basalt and limestone crags, and I have had a LOT of fun on those types of climbs.
|
|
timy
Sport climber
Durango
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
|
What's your point? Being a pro athlete in a "lifestyle" sport (which climbing assuredly is) with no money in the competitive circuit means that your job is effectively to be a model. What else would someone be paying you for? This isn't exactly a recent development.
Agreed. But what is this "model" supposed to convey? Growing up as a climber, the "models" that I admired most were the people who were understated and under the radar.
So I Just finished the Honnold/Roberts book. In one chapter, Alex talks about his struggle to justify the carbon footprint of flying gear and people (another Camp Four Collective thing)to Mexico for the documentation of his solo of Sendero Luminoso:
"At first, I'd assumed that my carbon footprint would be much lower than that of the average American, because I lived in a van and didn't own many possessions. But as I read more about the issue, I realized that the amount of flying that I did still left me near the highest percentile of environmental impact...."
So what was the actual cost of a stunt that wasn't likely born from the desire to just go climbing and do something cool, but almost strictly a one time marketing stunt? I don't even know what they're selling but I'm not interested. I'm tired of narcissistic behavior. Facebook brings to bear the "look at me" culture but eeeewww, get it out of climbing!
I'm as big of a show-off as anyone, and I've always wanted to get paid to climb, but I think some humility goes a long ways.
|
|
Ben909
Trad climber
toronto
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
|
While climbers getting rescued is unfortunate, the rap anchor on Castleton is gigantic and hard to miss, impossible if you've read the description. Even after they took the wrong rap they should have been able to deal with it. You don't belong on a multipitch route, no matter how travelled and classic, if you can't ascend back up to your anchor. We can either strive to remove all ambiguity from outdoor pursuit or accept some responsibility and be adequately competent for the environment we place ourselves in.
If you place bolts arguably not needed (they didn't need them in 1999) at least clean up your mess.
A belayed tyrolean traverse rigged in 99, not a slackline. Although this particular highline was quite loose at 1.25kn, it is subject to way different loading possibilities because of the falls people take while highlining and because the materials used (vectran and dyneema webbings) are so low stretch they seriously amplify any shockloads. I remember reading the article about the tyrolean, but can't find it now, I'd be curious to re-read it. FWIW, there are 3 slackline bolts per side.
The point is bolts left on cuttion edge routes still have some purpose, someone might use them to repeat the route.
The bolts left on Castleton serve no purpose, the slackline has been removed. It took only a few days before unsuspecting (and apparently inexperienced) climbers used them resulting in an expensive nightime rescue.
For better or for worse for the possibility of desert solitude, people will try to repeat this line. The bolts are there, just like they would be on any cutting edge project. Dan Osman's unfinished route on Castleton comes to mind, and I'd be willing to bet that these bolts will see more action than his.
About 10 years ago I counted 16 bolts placed at Gemini Bridges for a slackline. Seemed pretty egregious especially when there were plenty of suitable places for nest(s) of clean pro.
I highlined at Gemini Bridges in 2006 and 2007 and recall half a dozen lines up to 200'. Some were all bolts and some were supplemented with gear. The main dog hole line required the largest tricam and a few #6 camalots. One of the shortest lines used a crack for backup that was so sandy I could excavate with my fingers.
Right on Jim! I get that no one wants to clip off on Kor's old 1/4" spinners, but we've all seen the shitload of bolts that slackers place to feel secure. Why trash the place though? Hopefully the internet will show others that they can tie their lines off with out bolts, and save the day and the rock for future climbers and slackers.
Some of the tests people have done show forces above 20kn for a leash fall on 100' highlines. How many bolts would you use to feel secure? To have a reasonable ratio of loading to MBS? How much pro in sandstone is good for a 20kn whip? 3-4 bolts per side is common for highlines due to such a possible loading scenario, and another reason why people place slackline specific bolts. There are a few exceptions, like Yosemite Falls where Dean Potter had 8 bolts on one side because he was putting ~35kn pre-tension into a 2" amsteel rope, but they are rare and not the direction the community is going in for development. There are actually quite a few people establishing trad highlines, especially in Yosemite.
If they are claiming a world record though perhaps it did not get walked the full disistance in 99 in which case this would not be a retro bolt..
As mentioned above, it was not a highline slackline that was rigged previously. FWIW, the highline length that people were walking in 99 was certainly not more than 200'. 300' was first walked in 2010.
Why not just take the hangers off while the line isn't being used? That would solve the problems of climbers mistaking them as rap anchors.
This practice is actually common in certain places, like Joshua Tree. There are some drawbacks though, like having to have every possible hanger size you'll encounter as well as extra nuts for every thread size. As far as I know, the bolts on Castleton are 3/4" and, since nobody makes hangers for that size, there are some chain links along with spacers and washers to serve as a means of connecting to the bolt. Not impossible to remove and reinstall, but a tag indicating it is a highline anchor will probably suffice.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Nov 25, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
|
Thanks for the details Ben909. I think they are important.
3/4" bolts. Wow. Yeah I can see why they'd just leave them in place. And for the record I'm much rather see 3 3/4" bolts than 6 1/2" bolts.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!