Needless bolts left on Castleton Tower...

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 21 - 40 of total 90 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 24, 2015 - 12:06am PT
Do we really need another whining thread about bolts that nobody's gonna do anything about?

Your drain plugged with another tempest in a teapot?

Just call Woto Wooter.
colin rowe

Trad climber
scotland uk
Nov 24, 2015 - 01:32am PT
As you know Jim the placement and use of bolts is a ubiquitous practice in France. Chamonix is a good example of unnecessary bolt placement next to substantial granite cracks. What is objectionable is the presupposition that it is an except able practice elsewhere where bolt placement is subject to scrutiny. Perhaps such practices are a legacy of French imperialism.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Nov 24, 2015 - 01:46am PT
Royal Robbins said that over-bolting would ruin the environment.

He was correct.


And Now?


"A new modern climbing ethic is to bolt-bolt-bolt."



This is a terrible state of affairs.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 24, 2015 - 01:52am PT
A robust denial of and blindness to one's impact isn't unique to climbers and their chalk, bolts, and fixed draws. The slackers think everyone loves their anchors and horseback riders and mountain bikers think everyone loves their trails no matter how much they're tearing a place up. It's like anything else - moderation and common sense are often the hardest commodities of all to come by when talking about your own use of a resource.
Prod

Trad climber
Nov 24, 2015 - 02:03am PT
Funny thing, a similar high line was rigged in 1999 with no bolts placed.

So what was the story behind this one? Slack line? Zip line?

Just curious.

Prod.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Nov 24, 2015 - 02:07am PT
... ruin the environment.

Isn't it amazing what dumb things our bygone heroes have said?

To make any sense that this squeak of Royal's could have any merit for real environmental problems one could ask, "How local [in area] was the study zone where the measurement of "ruin" was determined?

I feel no pain or sense of ruin from the new bolts on Castleton ... The jabber of words just doesn't move my emotion button.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 24, 2015 - 02:43am PT
I feel no pain or sense of ruin from the new bolts on Castleton ... The jabber of words just doesn't move my emotion button.

A popular strawman comparison. What's a few bolts compared to the loss of the Amazon. Oh, the humanity!

It's right up there with 'just don't clip them' as arguments go. But then again, who knows? Maybe the Amazon falling to fire and bulldozers doesn't cause you any pain or push your buttons either.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 24, 2015 - 02:44am PT
Man, where is Ken Nichols when you need him?
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Nov 24, 2015 - 03:03am PT
Seems no different than establishing a climbing route. in this case though it is a retro bolt as the slack line had been set previously. If they are claiming a world record though perhaps it did not get walked the full disistance in 99 in which case this would not be a retro bolt.. either way they need to be as thoughtfull as possible when setting those kinds of anchors. I see a big problem in the argument that we (climbers) can have rap stations and protection bolts but you slack liners are not allowed to play on our rocks.
ashtond6

climber
Sheffield, UK
Nov 24, 2015 - 04:33am PT
Robert,

Yes, it happens all over the alps

A friend of mine in Switzerland went to a granite crag, looked like the smoke bluffs - line after line of bomber cracks. Each with 8 bolts up it

I can't believe anyone could argue for MORE bolts on Castleton :(
patrick compton

Trad climber
van
Nov 24, 2015 - 05:02am PT
Now that there are names attached to the crime, sounds like time for a good ol climber ethics lynching!!

Been a good month for lynchings, first Sloan, now mystery desert tower bolts.

Woot!
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Nov 24, 2015 - 05:57am PT
Edited

I feel for the rescuers who had to save these barneys.


That slackline was incredible but wait........
THEY USED BOLTS????!!!!!

A couple tcu's, tie off some sage, all good.
Just make sure it's SRENE mmmkay?

And don't bash the filmers.

This outta make some heads explode:
http://vimeo.com/146738468

jeff constine

Trad climber
Ao Namao
Nov 24, 2015 - 07:31am PT
Sam Lightner Replaced the rap anchors early this year.. North Face Rap/
ElCapPirate

Big Wall climber
Ogden, Utah
Nov 24, 2015 - 08:46am PT


If placing the bolts is not illegal, and setting up the slack line isn't either, then I can understand the principle of leaving them. That's a pretty spectacular human accomplishment to make the walk between those two formations, and it's likely someone else, or the same people for that matter, will want to do it again. Then, in principle, it's really no different than climbers leaving bolts behind on a first ascent.

You could argue the quantity, or the size, or the position of the bolts, but to a certain extent, and again in principle, that's irrelelevant. Beyond that it stirs up sh#t that could come back to bite climbers in the ass in the form of scrutiny by The Man.

I think tolerance is appropriate here. If another crew had to set up new anchors to do the walk again, even one time, that's more damage to the summits.

Ethically, it would be cool if anchors for slack lining were removable. Without knowing jack about rigging a slack line like that, I would think that eye bolts could be used in relatively loose, drop in holes, since the pull is horizontal, and the eyes could be pulled afterward. However, to be an effective way to limit more drilling, this would require an understanding between all other parties who attempt to rig similar setups as to the specs of the anchors to be used in the existing holes, and probably some public record thereof to refer to before production. Probably way too much to expect, especially when climbers aren't held to any similar standard.

As to climbers mistakenly using slack line anchors for descent and having to get rescued because of it, unfortunately, the fault lies squarely with the climbers, IMO. Suggesting that bolts can lead to expensive rescues is a mistake in my mind, unless the goal of mentioning it is to encourage regulation. Slack liners could take responsibility for preventing this kind of situation by marking their anchors "For Slack Only", but again, climbers aren't held to those standards.

Rappelling off fixed anchors has always called for good judgement.

I understand why climbers find clusters of giant anchors on summits offensive, but I think in this situation it calls for tolerance on the part of climbers, and consideration of aesthetics on the part of slack liners.

My first thought when I saw the video of the guy walking the line was Dean would be proud! An amazing and beautiful human accomplishment...

Very reasonable and well thought out post, Kevin. I thought the same about imagining Dean being proud.

Yup, the bolts are needless to climbers but high liners have the same rights as anyone to recreate. Why not just take the hangers off while the line isn't being used? That would solve the problems of climbers mistaking them as rap anchors.


My very first thought when I saw that slack line and where it was. "I wonder how they rigged that?" Followed by, oh crap, how DID they rig that!? There must be huge stresses involved, perhaps enough to lever off the top of that tower? Obviously not, but it got me thinking. I figured they would have wrapped it up somehow. Like slinging a big horn. Never figured they'd use bolts at all.


1.25 Kn standing strength. Yeah, I was surprised how low it was, as well.

Camp 4 Collective has been mentioned - I think it was Renan Osturk and Tim Kimple who were there (I may be wrong) shooting the event. Both are well known climbers and I would be disappointed if they had anything to do with the bolting. I thought I had read that they were shooting from drones for the event so may not have even been up on the towers. I guess one could argue that they probably knew that it was going to be bolted and had the opportunity to give input, but maybe not. It would be nice before the self-righteous climbing community collectively strung them up by their balls, to hear their perspective.

Playing devil's advocate, I see. Why would their balls be strung up for simply documenting a historic event?


Gotta love the internet, haa haa!

bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Nov 24, 2015 - 09:00am PT
Why not just take the hangers off while the line isn't being used? That would solve the problems of climbers mistaking them as rap anchors.

This is a pretty good idea. In fact it is so sensible and so obvious a solution you just know it'll never happen.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Nov 24, 2015 - 09:03am PT
A popular straw man comparison. Healje couldn't you give the real argument instead of using the word straw ma? Saying straw man is a cute labeling argumentative technique but using it & then asserting your Amazon comparison doesn't refute the substance of my assertions.

The area altered is very small

It seems those lamenting are far overstating the environmental significance of a dozen bolts on Castleton unless we measure the ruining quite local. i.e. a 3/4" hole? per bolt. Compared to area on top the tower this disruption area is quite small--insignificant.

But when the bullheads talk that disruption means everything but it[the natural area loss and their talking about it] has about identically zero effect on the environment.



Are these bolts going to change the annual percip, the average temp, cause ravens not land their, created a big loss in current wildlife and flora. These are questions about ruining the environment.

But yes they have created a brainstorm in your head and the only way we know about it is your lamenting. But that is your local environment and I am little concerned.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 24, 2015 - 10:36am PT
Why did they use bolts instead of natural protection? Unless we know that most of this thread is speculation.

If they could've used all natural pro then it would've been much cooler to do so.

If there was a good reason to use bolts then I don't have a problem with that. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets repeated, and as mentioned what's the difference between that and a climb that sees few repeats, in terms of justifying the bolts placed.

The could've used removable triplex bolts. But I imagine the holes are vertical and could fill up with water and maybe the freeze/thaw cycle could damage the holes? Meaning more holes would have to be drilled. So as mentioned pulling the hangers may have been a good idea.

Environmental impact isn't just ecosystem impact, it also includes human impacts. For many environmental impact reports those are the most important factors. So although the climbers that needed a rescue really brought that on themselves, those bolts helped create a situation with a significant impact. Really that's what the environmental impacts of most bolts are; it's impacts on other climbers/recreational users.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Nov 24, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
Does "Camp 4 Collective" smack of cheap capitalization?

Yes, it's gross.

I became active on Facebook maybe a year or so ago and started getting many of the "pro" climbers' feed. Now I've been unfollowing most of it because it's totally shameless BS. I'm not impressed by hardly any of it, they're just typical climbers (most of them) but act like everything they climb is some kind of breakthrough. I can make a world record about anything if no one else is doing it. What a stupid stunt!

I could feign disgust at the bolts or pull any number of ethics/environmental cards, but mostly I'm disgusted with paying these d#@&%ebags (through higher gear costs) for waste-of-time shenanigans that are solely designed for promotion.

Do something impressive man!
WBraun

climber
Nov 24, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
Why not just take the hangers off while the line isn't being used?

And put a brass tag on one of the bolts that have the reason why they are there stamped on it .....
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Nov 24, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Messages 21 - 40 of total 90 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta