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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Um LS, the guys may be looking for more than a climbing partner. Just a theory.
edit: NTTIAWWT
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Um LS, the guys may be looking for more than a climbing partner. Just a theory.
Assuming that guy is into you, because he invited you to climb....hmmmmm reminds me of males who assume that female climbers at the crag are noobs. Maybe it is an ego thing? A lot of people want to feel above others by creating self-validating assumptions...not picking on you Crimpergirl, I know you are kidding, but many do assume (at times correctly). Only thing I know for a fact is that I exist. Everything else is opened to interpretation. Assumed my significantly older or married female partners are not into me. Assumed some female partners were into me too. At times you are right, at times you are wrong. People are people and people be crazy...especially me. :)
"They climb really hard because their dick is tiny and they want something to feel good about. I lead (get frightened while hang dogging most of them) 5.9 because that is pure fun!" -typical noob
"She sent that climb because she has small fingers and weights next to nothing, if I was that small, Id hike it too." -Indian creek bro talk
"Oh you girls should not get on this 5.10+ route, it is a local test piece, the appropriate 5.9s are just around the corner." -the local
"Oh you flashed it? I heard the climb is soft for the grade, and you did not do the right sequence at the crux. Jamming it makes it easier, maybe it was a 5.10b for you? Not 5.11!" -The brosef
"Did you see that guy struggle up the 5.11a? I warmed up on it!" -the female cragger
and so on...people create assumptions about random climbers they know nothing about in order to boost their fragile ego. Funny thing is that I heard multiple variations of that sort of talk at crags multiple times. I should gather a journal for this sort of talk, could be a gem after 10 years of recording.
There is much more to climbing than climbing hard sport, slab, OW, ice, aid and so on. Everyone has some strengths and some weaknesses. It is important to focus on yourself, the daily grind, moment and what we desire instead of comparing our abilities to the people next to us. I usually don't get along well with competitive people that make climbing into some sort of a competition. Refuse to climb with guys and girls of that kind, even if they 'crush.' Unless it is an encouraging relationship where their drive is aimed to mutual benefit. In perfect world there are no assumptions or stereotypes. Too bad we don't live in one. Or maybe it is a good thing. The perfect world would be a boring place!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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I certainly don't feel picked on. And I'm not one to think men are pigs (or women are piglets). People are people. It was just a theory I offered as to the question LS posed. Further, I don't think there is anything wrong with it if that is what is happening regardless of whether the partnership is M/F, F/M, M/M or F/F (or even M/M/F or F/F/M etc.). :)
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overwatch
climber
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Yeah I don't think Sasha is holding her mouth right.
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velvet!
Trad climber
La Cochitaville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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A few interesting points out there for sure..
Why do we separate the genders in all other sports? Surely men and women are capable of equal skills in badminton, say. Or surfing like in the above example. Is it just historical and latent sexism??
I want to be against the first female ascent designation. I want to say we are the same. But I can't get passed the fact that muscles play a large role in climbing and men form them with less fat and get cut easier on average than women do. Yes we are lighter, yes we have smaller fingers (again on average), but on a whole - looking at who climbs hardest in the world these days - the presence of lean muscle seems to outweigh those small fingers or strength to weight ratios...am I wrong? am I sexist against my own gender? (seriously!)
Name me a sport, any sport where women on average do better than men. Running? Almost but not quite. Surfing? I don't know. Anyone..??
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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On the original question, curse or benefit?
It's all good... I enjoy hearing about ladies who crush, even FFFA. Women are more represented in climbing then ever, and who knows where that will end up - maybe someday it won't matter, but today, the guys have had a huge head start, so FFFA is still interesting.
I'd still love to see a statistical analysis. Some grad student somewhere?
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couchmaster
climber
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Yeah, Kevin said it. Women use to steer clear of this game. Then it got safer and more social and they showed up in force. Now they are breaking out and up all over everywhere. Real nice to see. I'd bet women still only make up 30-40% (or less) of the folks who climb, but that's better than the 3% or whatever it use to be.
Like @ 2 percent of this:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Why do we separate the genders in all other sports? Because the much higher average testosterone (T) levels in males translate to stronger muscles, stronger bones, and the ability to recover faster from training.
This is for (nearly all) sports, where muscles are important, like running.
For the same reason, taking steroids increases strength and provides an athletic advantage (in most but not all sports).
"The normal T range for men is 10-35 nmol/L (nanomole per liter), with an average in the low twenties, and for women it is 0.35-2.0 nmol/L, with an average of about 1.5."
from
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/09/brief-history-intersex-athletes-sport/
(This is a great article exploring how T differences can affect performance, applied to the rare cases of intersex athletes like Caster Semenya).
In long distance swimming, women have an advantage due to their thicker layer of subcutaneous fat, so they expend less energy keeping warm.
Warbler makes many good points.
It's true that in climbing strength-to-weight ratio is important, which reduces the male advantage of the high T level.
Libby Sauter's point about lean muscle is very relevant here, though.
And as Warbler noted, finger/hand/foot sizes vary by gender (and by person) and can be an advantage or disadvantage.
As for whether gender matters in climbing news, it seems to in many cases, but of course not all.
For example, it's not unusual to report that a person is the nth woman to redpoint a 9a.
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/ashima-shiraishi-may-be-first-female-to-send-5-15a
But if the climb is not that hard, being the first female is not notable. Drawing the line for "not that hard" is subjective.
Some sponsored climbers may be claiming FFFAs that are not really newsworthy, trying to keep the brand visible and keep that sponsorship.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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as per the original question of curse or benefit, i'm going to go with, at this particular point in history:
it's both.
from my perspective it's primarily a benefit to the collective as a whole: we as humans have a long history of deep rooted sexism and any action that celebrates and encourages female achievement is intrinsically beneficial to the collective as a whole...
otoh...
for the individual it has the potential to be a curse, as these types of designations might unconsciously hamper a single female individual from achieving their full potential. i.e. if someone assumes that they are requiring of a separate category would they achieve what they would if they didn't?
and so from this perspective it's like righting any historical wrong...
there is no ideal answer as the world isn't ideal...
and so from that perspective, given the sexist history that we are still in the process of remedying, i'd also argue that the fffa is currently an overall benefit.
because that's the trick: given climbing doesn't necessarily have the same drivers, that are found in other sports, that determine that elite males will necessarily outperform the most elite females, i don't think there is a definitive answer as to whether the historical outperformance of the most elite male climbers as compared to the most elite female climbers is solely physiological or whether it is primarily cultural...
if it is primarily physiological than the separate designation will always be a positive...
if not, then at some point it will become irrelevant.
time will tell, because assuming society continues to evolve, i'm sure we will eventually find out...
what i do know is that i'd love nothing more than for a female to universally and therefore unequivocally, set the bar for all of climbing humanity, and therefore prove the whole discussion [and designation] irrelevant...
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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I have never heard of a first male ascent. Us "men" don't differentiate because we are equal with women right? Men and women are naturally physiologically and mentally wired different. That is a fact.
Agendas don't help your cause for folks that can think.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Warbler great job on all that detailed analysis!
I might add that the woman who beats all men in sport climbing and only does Sport Climbing might be the bitch of all bitches.
She would have Bitch Muscle.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Yeah, Kevin said it. Women use to steer clear of this game. Then it got safer and more social and they showed up in force.
Right.
I saved the best for last—would everyone stand
except for, and in tribute to, Barbara Lilley?
The three highest, hardest snowy peaks in North
America are Mt. McKinley, Mt. Logan, and Mt. St. Elias.
Barbara is the first, by light years, to have summited all
three, and the first woman on each of them,
accomplished in an age of sexism. This began in the
1950s, before fancy gear; we’re talking massive packs,
twenty-three-hour summit days, “the usual blizzards,”
as she has written.
Her first ascent list is long and includes the highest
then-unclimbed peak in North America, 14,252’ Mt.
MacArthur in the Yukon.
This lady rock climbs! The first woman to climb
Yosemite’s fabled Lost Arrow, with Royal Robbins; other
Valley classics like the Cathedral Spires; first ascents at
Tahquitz, such as Fools Rush, The Error, and
Switchback, 5.7R, dating back to 1952. And there was a
scramble, for her, anyway, up the East Face of Mt.
Whitney in 1959, where she popped up at the top and
met Gordon MacLeod.
Since she retired from her day job at Hughes in
1986, she and Gordon have “gone climbin’,” summiting
way over five thousand peaks each.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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About the annoying premiss of this thread:
PATRONIZING
pa·tron·ize
ˈpātrəˌnīz,ˈpatrəˌnīz/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: patronizing
1.
treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.
"“She's a good-hearted girl,” he said in a patronizing voice"
synonyms: treat condescendingly, condescend to, look down on, talk down to, put down, treat like a child, treat with disdain More
2.
frequent (a store, theater, restaurant, or other establishment) as a customer.
"restaurants remaining open in the evening were well patronized"
synonyms: do business with, buy from, shop at, be a customer of, be a client of, deal with, trade with, frequent, support
"they patronized local merchants"
about climbing hard,These next ones are
not sport climbing you would be hard press to Find a Bitch with better head, muscles or attitude she is tuff and serious about climbing hard. When talking about what made a climb good, a great climb, Lynn told me that every move needs to be harder than the last move,
not defining it into categories to swell her own head ( n0 pun unintended )She is the real deal. . . when you talked climbing or getting at it
I don't think that there are any similar chicks, although I also knew Barb Devine and at the same time the two women crushed climbing as did Rosie Andrews who's muscles and bitchyness was twice that of both Barb and Lynn,
combined.( theres a story in all that )
Yes, The gyms, ease and safety that is modern climbing, has changed the demographic. The game is unrecognizable, get over it.
There are reasons we have dicks' just try a bit harder not to let it show.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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I've been seeing Barbara and Gorden [MacLeod] signatures in obscure summit registers all over California, for many years.
Dingus, that's only part of it. And she's still out there getting it done.
Was fortunate to see a slide show by the late Ellen Wilts some 15 years ago. I expected to see slides of Tahquitz, but instead was treated to an amazing collection of photos from various ascents in the Canadian Rockies from the late '40s and '50s. She was an amazing woman, and still sharp as a tack.
But of course they, and Ruth Mendenhall, were only doing it because it was safe and social.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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I might add that the woman who beats all men in sport climbing and only does Sport Climbing might be the bitch of all bitches.
Wow Dingus McGee, thank you for that subtle reminder that a woman who can beat a man in Man's Territory (ie. climbing) is by necessity "probably" a bitch.
Lol! Glad to see sexism is alive and well on the Taco.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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it was really fun to watch John Stannard and Lynn Hill talk about Foops at the Facelift last month.
just like watching two climbers discussing the details of the moves they used to get through the crux...
Hey Warbler, you got a Foops story?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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5.11, break through when John did it... my guess is with your size you'd have an easier time with it then Lynn who is considerably shorter...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Kloberdanz really isn't that bad....overhead protection. I recall a dyno move and a heel hook.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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L,
Glad to see sexism ...
truth is that that sentence was intended to be sarcastic sexism about this post -- you may have gotten that.
Truth is (second one) there are all kinds of fantastic bitches out there and most of them could not get their big asses off the ground. But alas I can appreciate them and thoroughly enjoy their company. By many measurements they are far more pleasant to be around that those type "A" personalities.
It now appears that women have taken up that stupid game of sports analysis. Will women ever be as good as men in sports anal alysis?
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